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(Fox News)   O.P.P. : The top 2 percent are paying almost half of all income taxes, their efforts have made it possible for generational welfare to break the circle of poverty   (foxnews.com) divider line 440
    More: Interesting, Obama administration, income taxes, Jon Kyl, discretionary income, welfare, poverty  
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3021 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Jul 2012 at 5:19 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-13 11:50:32 AM  
In other news, people who don't have an income don't pay income taxes.
 
2012-07-13 11:55:15 AM  
They also have over half of all income.
 
2012-07-13 11:55:46 AM  
Poor rich people...
 
2012-07-13 11:56:07 AM  
Which goes hand in hand with them making almost half of the income. Funny how that works
 
2012-07-13 12:02:19 PM  
In other news, having money means you have money. More news from Fox News, after this.
 
2012-07-13 12:04:24 PM  
Did not see the term "capital gains" mentioned in TFA.

Not an expert by far, but think it would be different than simple income tax.
 
2012-07-13 12:07:54 PM  
Fox News to the rescue!
 
2012-07-13 12:18:13 PM  
oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

/working net taxpayer
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-13 12:44:48 PM  
The top 1 percent, for instance, pay an average tax rate of more than 24 percent. The top 5 percent -- a tax rate of a little more than 20 percent. The top 10 percent -- about 18 percent.

In a way they have a point. I suspect that no one really pulls their weight when it comes to taxes.

It isn't the percentage that is the problem it's the AMOUNT. Revenues need to match expenditures and our tax revenues are lower than any other developed country. Or all but one if you use the Heritage Foundation numbers.Link

That said, I suspect that when the look at income they are looking at taxable income which ignores tax shelters, credits, deductions and other ways of making income non-taxable. (like hiding it overseas)
 
2012-07-13 12:47:17 PM  

EatTheWorld: oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

/working net taxpayer


They're not paying their fair share. 1% owns 99% of the wealth in this country. They're not paying 99% of taxes.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-13 12:50:29 PM  

EatTheWorld: oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

/working net taxpayer


Link

They aren't.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-13 12:52:34 PM  

vpb: EatTheWorld: oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/07/13/fox-manufactures-heavy-ta x -burden-for-the-wealt/187114

As for snide comments may some would be appropriate for people who can be easily misled by people playing games with statistics?

 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-13 12:58:41 PM  
Measuring the top 1% by wealth instead of income.
 
2012-07-13 01:10:34 PM  
Who's down with O.P.P?

This whole country.
 
2012-07-13 02:14:01 PM  
There's always a way to avoid those pesky taxes.

I mean, besides buying Congress.
 
2012-07-13 02:26:26 PM  
In other words, the more you make, the more you pay, which is only farking fair. Am I right, assholes?
 
2012-07-13 02:39:10 PM  
Just the other day I was shopping in Brooks Brothers, picking out some new suits and I thought about how unfair it was that I have to pay so much more in taxes than other people!

As I was putting the suits into the trunk of my Range Rover, I started to get even more angry. How come I have to pay income taxes, when 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes at all!

Now, they want to raise my taxes again? It isn't fair, I thought, as I pulled up to the marina where my boat is getting its teak deck refinished.

It just isn't fair.
 
2012-07-13 02:43:31 PM  
The talk about taxing fairly is nothing more than a smokescreen. When the government talks about taxing fairly, they're covering up the real issue because the fairest way to tax would be a sales tax...you spend more, you pay more in taxes...if you spend less, you pay less in taxes. It's fair and equal across the board as everyone pays the same rate and it's objective. The current system is whomever defines what "fair" taxation is. Who makes those determinations? Congress? The President? You mean the same 1% that everyone cries about?

The real issue is government taking more power over the people. Say you make a little more than six figures a year.....a lot of people would be in favor of your taxes being raised because it sounds good, after all you're in the top 10% But hey, guess what? That's really only upper-middle class. For a multi-millionaire or a billionaire...a tax higher tax rate wouldn't hurt their status at all. They have real wealth. But your odds of acquiring any real wealth (while saving for retirement) if you're at the borderline will be hampered by higher tax rates.

Yes, there's a class war...but it's created and enhanced by the government.
 
2012-07-13 03:02:07 PM  
12:41 Then80 he81 sat down opposite the offering box,82 and watched the crowd putting coins into it. Many rich people were throwing in large amounts. 12:42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins,83 worth less than a penny. 12:43 He called his disciples and said to them, "I tell you the truth,84 this poor widow has put more into the offering box85 than all the others.86 12:44 For they all gave out of their wealth.87 But she, out of her poverty, put in what she had to live on, everything she had."88
 
2012-07-13 03:11:59 PM  

kbronsito: 12:41 Then80 he81 sat down opposite the offering box,82 and watched the crowd putting coins into it. Many rich people were throwing in large amounts. 12:42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins,83 worth less than a penny. 12:43 He called his disciples and said to them, "I tell you the truth,84 this poor widow has put more into the offering box85 than all the others.86 12:44 For they all gave out of their wealth.87 But she, out of her poverty, put in what she had to live on, everything she had."88


Your point?
 
2012-07-13 03:14:04 PM  
Shamelessly stolen, but poignant:

When did we become a country where the millionaires are jealous of the people on food stamps? A country that thinks teachers and fire fighters are soaking us dry? A country that thinks the richest who are paying the lowest taxes in 80 years are the ones being beaten up?
 
2012-07-13 03:20:59 PM  

slayer199: kbronsito: 12:41 Then80 he81 sat down opposite the offering box,82 and watched the crowd putting coins into it. Many rich people were throwing in large amounts. 12:42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins,83 worth less than a penny. 12:43 He called his disciples and said to them, "I tell you the truth,84 this poor widow has put more into the offering box85 than all the others.86 12:44 For they all gave out of their wealth.87 But she, out of her poverty, put in what she had to live on, everything she had."88

Your point?


Obviously Jesus was against rich people paying their share in taxes.
 
2012-07-13 03:22:46 PM  
Is pretending that 'income tax' is the only tax the only rhetorical trick these people know?
 
2012-07-13 03:24:01 PM  

slayer199: kbronsito: 12:41 Then80 he81 sat down opposite the offering box,82 and watched the crowd putting coins into it. Many rich people were throwing in large amounts. 12:42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins,83 worth less than a penny. 12:43 He called his disciples and said to them, "I tell you the truth,84 this poor widow has put more into the offering box85 than all the others.86 12:44 For they all gave out of their wealth.87 But she, out of her poverty, put in what she had to live on, everything she had."88

Your point?


Jesus was trying to say that people with little or no money give up something they could use, whereas the rich give away money they can spare.

Now taxes are different from the charity box, but Jesus also argued in favor of paying ones taxes. The rule still applies... people with little money would be giving up money they can use and the truly rich are just going to give up money they can spare.

The Jesus party would like to argue that people that don't pay income tax should pony up because the rich have already given their share. But basically any poor person that paid some sales tax has already paid more taxes than what the rich pay from their capital gains.
 
2012-07-13 03:29:34 PM  

slayer199: the fairest way to tax would be a sales tax...you spend more, you pay more in taxes...if you spend less, you pay less in taxes. It's fair and equal across the board as everyone pays the same rate and it's objective.


Horse shiat. A person making $20K a year will be spending pretty much all of that on basic necessities for survival. A person making $2 million a year will not. A person would be discouraged to spend, which would hurt the economy.

A person making 20K would essentially be taxed on 100% of their income while the person making $2 million would be being taxed at a vastly different rate, unless they spent every bit of that 2 million annually.
 
2012-07-13 03:38:28 PM  

kbronsito: Now taxes are different from the charity box, but Jesus also argued in favor of paying ones taxes. The rule still applies... people with little money would be giving up money they can use and the truly rich are just going to give up money they can spare.


That was what I was looking for. Not the same. It's one thing for people to give to charity...it's another thing entirely for the government to take the money.

Do I have a problem with the truly wealthy paying more in taxes? Not really. Higher taxes will not affect their status. The problem I have is the moving goalposts. Because "fair" is subjective, it's whatever a politician decides is "fair." I have a serious problem with the other side of the equation (spending).

If I have $1million dollars by the time I retire, am I rich? Not really. If I live to 87 after retirement, that's $50k a year for living expenses.
 
2012-07-13 03:43:11 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: slayer199: the fairest way to tax would be a sales tax...you spend more, you pay more in taxes...if you spend less, you pay less in taxes. It's fair and equal across the board as everyone pays the same rate and it's objective.

Horse shiat. A person making $20K a year will be spending pretty much all of that on basic necessities for survival. A person making $2 million a year will not. A person would be discouraged to spend, which would hurt the economy.

A person making 20K would essentially be taxed on 100% of their income while the person making $2 million would be being taxed at a vastly different rate, unless they spent every bit of that 2 million annually.


Not to mention, every year the discrepancy would get larger, even faster than it does now under a (somewhat) progressive system. The poor person basically can't save. $20K per year, taxed at a high rate because the rich guy isn't contributing appreciably, means that maybe they can scrape together $1K in savings, assuming nothing goes wrong.

In the meantime, the rich person can sock away all that extra money in investments, collect dividends and capital gains tax-free, go on elaborate vacations and spend all their money overseas tax-free, etc. Then, when they die, their giant lump of money would be handed down to their descendants tax-free, who probably never have to work a day in their life, because the annual return on investment from that lump of money is enough to keep them in the lifestyle they are accustomed to.

Especially if they invested in guillotine stocks. The market would be very bullish on those.
 
2012-07-13 03:45:58 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: Horse shiat. A person making $20K a year will be spending pretty much all of that on basic necessities for survival. A person making $2 million a year will not. A person would be discouraged to spend, which would hurt the economy.

A person making 20K would essentially be taxed on 100% of their income while the person making $2 million would be being taxed at a vastly different rate, unless they spent every bit of that 2 million annually.


I was trying to make a point about objectively fair vs. subjectively fair. A truly fair tax is one which everyone pays the same rate (not necessarily a flat tax either). So while a person that pays a 20% sales tax would end up paying $4k in taxes, someone making $2million dollars would end up paying $400k.

Is that practical or wise? No. $4k is a HUGE amount of money for someone at the poverty line whereas $400k wouldn't really be felt by someone making $2million a year. .

I don't have an issue with taxing the truly wealthy per se, what I have a problem with is the government spending it to increase the size and power of the federal government at the expense of individual liberty. Shrink the government, pay down the debt...don't fark over our children and grandchildren.
 
2012-07-13 03:46:58 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: EatTheWorld: oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

/working net taxpayer

They're not paying their fair share. 1% owns 99% of the wealth in this country. They're not paying 99% of taxes.


Well that's just not true.

jj325: Which goes hand in hand with them making almost half of the income. Funny how that works


And neither is that.

Here's my half-assed source: Link

Your turn
 
2012-07-13 03:48:41 PM  
I'm not saying wealth and tax distribution is equal, but it is not as blatantly imbalanced as either of you two claim.
 
2012-07-13 03:50:32 PM  

chimp_ninja: Not to mention, every year the discrepancy would get larger, even faster than it does now under a (somewhat) progressive system. The poor person basically can't save. $20K per year, taxed at a high rate because the rich guy isn't contributing appreciably, means that maybe they can scrape together $1K in savings, assuming nothing goes wrong.


That's along the lines of what I'm getting at. Raising taxes ultimately creeps into the middle class and hinders the ability to acquire wealth.

Fundamentally, I'm opposed to increasing size and power of government. The government isn't going to do anything to reduce spending, balance the budget, or pay down the debt...so I'm opposed to raising taxes until that happens. Now if it should happen? Sure, raise taxes on the truly wealthy.
 
2012-07-13 03:53:31 PM  

slayer199: If I have $1million dollars by the time I retire, am I rich? Not really. If I live to 87 after retirement, that's $50k a year for living expenses.


1) The median household income in the United States is $50,233.

2) You seem to have an investment strategy that returns 0%. With $1M in your pocket, 8% annual growth isn't hard to achieve, and you can also spend down the principal slowly. $100K for the rest of your life, without having to lift a finger, is very simple.

3) This is why we have Social Security, Medicare, etc.

slayer199: That was what I was looking for. Not the same. It's one thing for people to give to charity...it's another thing entirely for the government to take the money.


4) We tried this little social experiment in the 1920s. Rich people tended to give jack and shiat to charity. Other people tended to die penniless. Social Security remains one of the great achievements of America, and it requires the Government to take the money. Crack open a history book and see how well the rich take care of the poor without government playing a role. See also: Guillotines.
 
2012-07-13 04:00:51 PM  

vernonFL: Who's down with O.P.P?

This whole country.


My favorite thing about that song is seeing white people singing that part, without knowing what O.P.P. actually stands for. It's like, oblivious thy name is you.
 
2012-07-13 04:09:18 PM  

chimp_ninja: 4) We tried this little social experiment in the 1920s. Rich people tended to give jack and shiat to charity. Other people tended to die penniless. Social Security remains one of the great achievements of America, and it requires the Government to take the money. Crack open a history book and see how well the rich take care of the poor without government playing a role. See also: Guillotines.


Actually, if the government had set it up as suggested and kept the money that people put into Social Security rather than raiding it....it wouldn't be the Ponzi scheme it is today. Even Roosevelt disapproved of the government using the money people put into Social Security. It was supposed to only be used for their retirement.

I also hate to tell you....there will always be poor people. The War on Poverty hasn't done a damn thing to reduce it...or did you miss those threads from a week or two ago.
 
2012-07-13 04:45:56 PM  
Fair Tax

/tax spending, not earning
 
2012-07-13 04:59:39 PM  

jj325: Which goes hand in hand with them making almost half of the income. Funny how that works


Exactly... people throwing out percentages of taxes paid vs. percentiles of tax earners... that info means NOTHING. But, they throw it out there because they know most people suck at math.

To be fair though, they did throw out the real comparisons later in the article:
"IRS figures show the top 1 percent of earners take home 16.9 percent of the nation's total income, but pay 36.7 percent of the nation's income taxes.

The top 5 percent take home a little more than 31 percent of total income but pay almost 59 percent of all income taxes.

And the top 10 percent earn just over 43 percent of the total income but pay more than 70 percent of all income taxes.

"IRS figures show the top 1 percent of earners take home 16.9 percent of the nation's total income, but pay 36.7 percent of the nation's income taxes.

The top 5 percent take home a little more than 31 percent of total income but pay almost 59 percent of all income taxes.

And the top 10 percent earn just over 43 percent of the total income but pay more than 70 percent of all income taxes.


If you want to have arguments about the 16.9% vs. 36.7%, or the 43% vs. 70%... those arguments are fair game. The argument for these spreads of income earned vs. taxes paid though are that, the first 20-30k of income per individual is basically needed for "basic necessities" in U.S. society (food, shelter, clothing). I know the GOP doesn't like to look at it that way, what with their "98% of the 'poor' have refrigerators" B.S., but, that is the reasoning. The $100,000th dollar earned in a year is "less neccesary" than the $25,000th, and the $1,000,000th is less than that, and upwards, which is why you get taxed more on those dollars in a tax year. And the fact is that, there is a very small number of people who make more than $100k in a year, vs. those who make under $40k, so, that VAST number of people are not going to have higher "dollars" made that are less "necessary" for basic necessities.

This guy throwing this sound bite out there trying to make people think it is "2% vs. 50%" though is just being disingenuous, but, that is par for the course with the GOP:

"You got the top 2 percent paying almost half of all income taxes. Is that fair?" Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz.
 
2012-07-13 05:22:22 PM  

Il Douchey: Fair Tax


Funny'd

The FairTax is a horrible idea that should be killed with fire and laughed out of the room anytime anyone seriously suggests it.
 
2012-07-13 05:23:21 PM  

Aarontology: They also have over half of all income.


the top 2% probably have about 80% of it
 
2012-07-13 05:25:47 PM  
But they're EVIL...Duh.
 
2012-07-13 05:25:55 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: EatTheWorld: oh i thought the rich weren't paying their fair share???? where are all those snide comments???

/working net taxpayer

They're not paying their fair share. 1% owns 99% of the wealth in this country. They're not paying 99% of taxes.


probably due to our lack of a wealth tax
 
2012-07-13 05:26:02 PM  
They can pay more, and they will.
 
2012-07-13 05:27:45 PM  
Oh look, it's this talking point again. And it's still ridiculous.

Of course they pay more taxes - they have more income.

It's like "did you know that people who are fat have to exert more effort when walking? Those skinny people only have to exert a fraction of the effort, due to their lack of fatness!"
 
2012-07-13 05:28:11 PM  

3_Butt_Cheeks: But they're EVIL...Duh.


They're not evil. I just don't give a shiat when they talk about how the system is being so unfair to themand try to get out of contributing to it when they wouldn't even be where they were today without the system.

Rich people are not treated unfairly in this country so lets stop pretending they are.
 
2012-07-13 05:28:51 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Oh look, it's this talking point again. And it's still ridiculous.

Of course they pay more taxes - they have more income.

It's like "did you know that people who are fat have to exert more effort when walking? Those skinny people only have to exert a fraction of the effort, due to their lack of fatness!"


Epoch_Zero: Oh look, it's this talking point again. And it's still ridiculous.

Of course they pay more taxes - they have more income.

It's like "did you know that people who are fat have to exert more effort when walking? Those skinny people only have to exert a fraction of the effort, due to their lack of fatness!"


THIS!

/Done in 42
 
2012-07-13 05:32:03 PM  

Mrtraveler01: 3_Butt_Cheeks: But they're EVIL...Duh.

They're not evil. I just don't give a shiat when they talk about how the system is being so unfair to themand try to get out of contributing to it when they wouldn't even be where they were today without the system.

Rich people are not treated unfairly in this country so lets stop pretending they are.


Plus the go-to condescending argument for the wealthy and wealthy wanna-be's is that "life isn't fair".

Bring up taxes and suddenly they're all Mr. Fairplay.
 
2012-07-13 05:33:52 PM  

Mrtraveler01: 3_Butt_Cheeks: But they're EVIL...Duh.

They're not evil. I just don't give a shiat when they talk about how the system is being so unfair to themand try to get out of contributing to it when they wouldn't even be where they were today without the system.

Rich people are not treated unfairly in this country so lets stop pretending they are.


Nobody speaks more about "fair" and "unfair" than Obama and his constant claims of "paying their fair share".
 
2012-07-13 05:34:46 PM  
You mean that income taxes are the ONLY taxes that anyone in America pays?

I wonder how much longer until the 47 percent bullshiat gets brought up in this thread.
 
2012-07-13 05:34:56 PM  
Ah Fox News, bastion of unlimited unbiased information.

I'm sure it's legit.
 
2012-07-13 05:35:31 PM  
Maybe Obama just needs to drop the whole "fair share" thing.

True fairness would have every American man, woman and child paying exactly the same amount in taxes.
 
2012-07-13 05:36:59 PM  
of course. the only way to make wealth trickle down is to squeeze it out first. tax capital gains a bit more and maybe we won't have to continue hemorrhaging jobs.
 
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