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(Detroit Free Press)   Penn State unlikely to receive "Death Penalty". I mean, it's not like players got free tattoos or a donor gave someone a car or anything... that would be far more serious   (freep.com) divider line 797
    More: Asinine, Penn State, NCAA, Mark Emmert, university presidents, Shapiro, NCAA rules, blood donors, Joe Paterno  
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7200 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2012 at 10:03 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-13 11:59:35 AM  

IXI Jim IXI: Those kids had better not be allowed to sue. That could affect the school and, in turn, the innocent people who make their living off the school.

Better off for everyone to just forget the whole justice thing...


If the school is punished, especially the football program, local businesses would suffer! It would almost be like they're being violently assaulted!
 
2012-07-13 12:00:17 PM  

MCStymie: I think the best solution would be to force them to rename their team mascot/name to Penn State Nittany Boyfarker Apologists.

/Joe Pa's a-burnin'.


What would the mascot look like?
 
2012-07-13 12:00:23 PM  
Sandusky's wife should go to jail too. She knew what was happening.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:06 PM  

gimmegimme: fireclown: Weaver95: In five years this will all have blown over. In twenty it will be an answer to trivia questions on "The Ocho"

I don't think so


Hell, I'm a fully functioning member of society, and I'd never heard of the SMU thing until today. I know people who couldn't find Srebenecia on a map. Make no mistake, this will fade. If PSU has a brain in their head, they'll take their lumps, pay out a stinkload of cash, and a few guys will (rightly) go to jail. But long term, I don't think this is a game changer.

However, there are some profound cultural problems that the PSU situation highlights. The big one is that we idolize football to an insane degree, whereas scientists labor in obscurity. I'll do my part.


[www.technologyreview.com image 220x173]
This here is Dr Craig Venter. He's involved in not only decoding genomes, but in creating synthetic living organisms from synthesized DNA. It's effing badass, and he should be more well known than any college football player.

Riiiiiiiight, but can he run a sub-5 40 meter dash? Does he have two cell phones (one for his girlfriend and one...not for his girlfriend)?

Didn't think so.


No, but he does carry a handgun with the serial numbers filed off, so he's got that going for him.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:17 PM  

J Bag: Are you saying they're being punished because they can't go to a football game six times and shout "We are Penn State" back and forth? Because that's the "football culture" that Freeh talked about - that Penn State University and Penn State Football are inseparable - and that is a major problem.


This is heresy in America and you will be burned at the stake. Recant and save your soul now.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:24 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: MCStymie: I think the best solution would be to force them to rename their team mascot/name to Penn State Nittany Boyfarker Apologists.

/Joe Pa's a-burnin'.

What would the mascot look like?


A cartoonish Sandusky with his pants around his ankles, if I had to guess.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:27 PM  

Rwa2play: Weaver95: i'm sorry but PSU needs to have it's football program completely shut down. THAT should be the Paterno legacy. that school needs a time out.

Sadly, if the NCAA didn't shut down Baylor basketball after the murder of Patrick Dennehy and subsequent cover-up they're not going to shut down Penn State.


then the NCAA is gonna have a rather large credibility problem. this thing has really grabbed people's attention, and once something gets out on the intertubes...
 
2012-07-13 12:01:39 PM  

birchman: Not that it will probably matter anyway, after the lawsuits are done they won't be able to afford shoulder pads.


It should be noted the school has already agreed to settle all the lawsuits against it. So the school itself at any rate, isn't fighting the civil side, seeing as the people currently in charge have no interest in trying to appear to defend what is not exactly defensible.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:40 PM  

Rwa2play: Sadly, if the NCAA didn't shut down Baylor basketball after the murder of Patrick Dennehy and subsequent cover-up they're not going to shut down Penn State.


The only reason they didn't death penalty Baylor is because the coverup wasn't conducted by the school, but rather by the coach. The institution immediately cooperated with the NCAA. The NCAA made it clear that this was the only reason they didn't get the death penalty.
 
2012-07-13 12:01:48 PM  
How would the death penalty deter people from doing the same as Penn State in the future? Is it possible to deter it more than the GIGANTIC amount of negative media coverage, jail time, legacy ruined, stigma/fear of child rapists on campus, etc.? Would the implementation of the death penalty actually "change the culture" of college football, as I've seen some argue? People do this stuff because they don't think they will get caught in the first place. Extraordinarily harsh punishments might deter cover ups, but only if the punishment for telling the truth is light. It seems to me that people are calling for it for the same reason they call for the real death penalty: vengeance, not justice. This one wouldn't even hit the ones involved in the actual crime. I expect Penn State to be hit hard under the ethics bit, but bringing down the death penalty for the program is a disproportionate response, having repercussions far beyond anything intended. It wouldn't punish those involved nor accomplish anything in the long term. The death penalty is for widespread departmental and institutional actions, not a conspiracy of 4 people. NCAA sanctions are not going to fix situations like Penn State from happening again.
 
2012-07-13 12:02:12 PM  

Mrs.Sharpier: This cry baby attitude like "DON'T PUNISH EVERYONE" is so pathetic.

If a child's parents murder someone, both parents will go to jail. Sorry kid, your parents committed a crime, you go stay at a foster home now. We don't go "oh that's not fair!! Let the kid have his mommy!!"


Yeah yeah! Cuz those two issues are exactly the same thing! Random analogies, anyone can use them to make the world easier to understand! Seriously, "conflation": look it up.
 
2012-07-13 12:02:30 PM  

nmiguy: Sandusky's wife should go to jail too. She knew what was happening.


Exactly right.
 
2012-07-13 12:02:34 PM  

fireclown: birchman: From a criminal standpoint, they will be. Now the NCAA needs to decide how they will discipline the program for fostering the culture that allowed child rape to become acceptable.

Trust me, I'm as much a fan of blood for the blood god as the next guy in this matter. Maybe more so. But is this the role of the NCAA? I have to admit that I'm sort of unclear on their actual role. Most of the judgements seem to be for recruiting and game fixing. Are they in the business of controlling the culture of college football? If so, then they have to act today. If not, they should let the police do their work and help the prosecution wherever possible.


Yes, they absolutely are. Lack of institutional control is a common punishment handed down. I don't think they have a specific punishment called "Lack of preventing child rape", but I think it's probably covered under a wider definition. Also as I already mentioned, schools don't have a right to a football program, the NCAA allows them to participate if they hold their program to certain standards, which includes grade requirements, practice limits, recruiting standards, and not raping children in the shower.
 
2012-07-13 12:02:55 PM  

stonicus: Not about "punishing" PSU. It's sending a message to every other insutition out there "We will not tolerate this shiat! You see something like this happen, report it or we will nuke your program into oblivion!!! Zero tolerance!!"


Ah yes, just like the death penalty helps prevent murders. Oh wait, it doesn't?

ThreeEdgedSword: "Higher Education" is corrupted.


Everything in the entire world is corrupt. Welcome to reality.

Galloping Galoshes: That needs to be changed, or nothing will change.


You're right, I'm sure nothing has changed due to what has already happened.
 
2012-07-13 12:02:57 PM  

MugzyBrown: Mrs.Sharpier: This cry baby attitude like "DON'T PUNISH EVERYONE" is so pathetic.

If a child's parents murder someone, both parents will go to jail. Sorry kid, your parents committed a crime, you go stay at a foster home now. We don't go "oh that's not fair!! Let the kid have his mommy!!"

The kid losing his parents is a direct consequence of the parents going to jail.

An outside agency doesn't come and tear down the apartment complex they lived in to teach a lesson to the world.


Not wanting anyone to tear down the apartment complex, just to bug bomb one apartment.
 
2012-07-13 12:03:06 PM  

Rwa2play: Weaver95: i'm sorry but PSU needs to have it's football program completely shut down. THAT should be the Paterno legacy. that school needs a time out.

Sadly, if the NCAA didn't shut down Baylor basketball after the murder of Patrick Dennehy and subsequent cover-up they're not going to shut down Penn State.


Probably, but this is much bigger because it's kids, it's Penn State, it's Joe Pa, it's football, and it went on for 15 years. Still, you're probably right.
 
2012-07-13 12:03:13 PM  
It is vengeance. Deserved vengeance. Don't protect child predators. You do that, more than justice is coming your way.
 
2012-07-13 12:03:14 PM  

nmiguy: Sandusky's wife should go to jail too. She knew what was happening.


www.tvprogramm.sf.tv

Are you taking stupid pills again? Everyone knows you can't convict a husband and wife of the same crime.
 
2012-07-13 12:03:49 PM  
There are a lot of bump mother f*ckers in here. Saying the program shouldn't be punished is ridiculous. Their program would've been in the shiatter had this shower incident come out when it happened. NO recruits would've taken a tour through the showers and been like, oh I want to go to this school and shower in these showers every day where a little kid was raped! Awesome!

Their program would've gone down the drain. Joe Paterno would've retired years ago. He wouldn't have a wins record. They wouldn't have any Big 10 titles during that time. they would've had to totally rebuild. BUT INSTEAD they covered it up for over TEN F*CKING YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS so their program wouldn't fall apart, and you're saying "oh just punish the few who covered it up." That isn't justice. The school and program GREATLY benefitted from this. Not punishing them is ridiculous

I can't believe there are people in here even saying that. You support program bans when coaches illegally recruit for years because it benefits the program, but not when they cover up rape to benefit their program? RIGHT. That makes sense.

So the next time it comes out that a major successful university footbal program has been illegally recruiting star athletes for years and the university wants to just fire the coach and have everyone forget about it, come back to me and let me know if you'll be OK with that. Because that recruiting benefit would be the same as not having to tell recruits that a little kid got raped in your showers.
 
2012-07-13 12:03:54 PM  

MCStymie: Galloping Galoshes: MCStymie: I think the best solution would be to force them to rename their team mascot/name to Penn State Nittany Boyfarker Apologists.

/Joe Pa's a-burnin'.

What would the mascot look like?

A cartoonish Sandusky with his pants around his ankles, if I had to guess.


In a portable shower?
 
2012-07-13 12:04:17 PM  
List of NCAA Sponsors from wikipedia:

AT&T
Coca-Cola
CapitalOne
Nissan (Infiniti) Car & parts
Enterprise Rent-A-Car
The Hartford
Hershey's (Reese's) Candy
LG Electronics
Lowe's
Kraft (Planters)
Unilever
UPS
AT&T, Coca-Cola and CapitalOne are NCAA Corporate Champions. Other sponsors are NCAA Corporate Partner

Seems like a good list of companies to let know how you feel about the fact that the NCAA might decide that there is no need to punish a member institution for concealing and enabling child sex abuse within it's football facilities.
 
2012-07-13 12:04:37 PM  

IAmRight: stonicus: Not about "punishing" PSU. It's sending a message to every other insutition out there "We will not tolerate this shiat! You see something like this happen, report it or we will nuke your program into oblivion!!! Zero tolerance!!"

Ah yes, just like the death penalty helps prevent murders. Oh wait, it doesn't?

ThreeEdgedSword: "Higher Education" is corrupted.

Everything in the entire world is corrupt. Welcome to reality.

Galloping Galoshes: That needs to be changed, or nothing will change.

You're right, I'm sure nothing has changed due to what has already happened.


See me in five years.
 
2012-07-13 12:04:38 PM  

IAmRight:
ThreeEdgedSword: "Higher Education" is corrupted.

Everything in the entire world is corrupt. Welcome to reality.


While you are right, that isn't news to me.
 
2012-07-13 12:04:55 PM  

Iceman_Cometh: Not wanting anyone to tear down the apartment complex, just to bug bomb one apartment.


While the kid is in there.
 
2012-07-13 12:05:24 PM  

r0Be: List of NCAA Sponsors from wikipedia:

AT&T
Coca-Cola
CapitalOne
Nissan (Infiniti) Car & parts
Enterprise Rent-A-Car
The Hartford
Hershey's (Reese's) Candy
LG Electronics
Lowe's
Kraft (Planters)
Unilever
UPS
AT&T, Coca-Cola and CapitalOne are NCAA Corporate Champions. Other sponsors are NCAA Corporate Partner

Seems like a good list of companies to let know how you feel about the fact that the NCAA might decide that there is no need to punish a member institution for concealing and enabling child sex abuse within it's football facilities.


(Applause) That's the RIGHT way to get their attention.
 
2012-07-13 12:05:58 PM  

homeschooled: Saying the program shouldn't be punished is ridiculous.


If the program stays intact, just think of it as an opportunity to work on some...chants....for PSU should they play in Columbus next year.

/no idea if they do.
 
2012-07-13 12:06:13 PM  

moocifer: How would the death penalty deter people from doing the same as Penn State in the future?


losing a major income stream for a few years might make them think about not doing it again...
 
2012-07-13 12:06:27 PM  

Inflatable Rhetoric: nmiguy: Sandusky's wife should go to jail too. She knew what was happening.

Exactly right.


Accessory after the fact.
 
2012-07-13 12:06:31 PM  

homeschooled: The school and program GREATLY benefitted from this. Not punishing them is ridiculous


apparently, if there is a LOT of money involved, then its ok to cover up kiddie rape. murder costs more and if you combine crimes then the cost goes up.
 
2012-07-13 12:07:20 PM  

SH: Weaver95: yes. why is this so difficult to grasp?

For a very good reason. You are punishing THOUSANDS of innocent people because a tiny percentage of them were morons.
Why is that so difficult to grasp?

I'll repeat: PUNISH THE PEOPLE RESPONISIBLE.


Would taking away the program they protected by covering up rape be a punishment?
 
2012-07-13 12:07:22 PM  

Weaver95: IXI Jim IXI: Weaver95: I wonder what sort of changes PSU will make to the football program?

They'll install video cameras in the showers?

I guess I'll wait a couple/few days and see what changes (if any) PSU makes to their organizational charts.


I really don't think this was an org chart problem. It was a problem with individual people giving too much deference to other individual people, based on their perceived importance, not on where they were in the org chart. I said in another post - Curley and Schultz (and Spanier of course) were ALREADY well above Paterno in the org chart. That didn't prevent the scandal.

Don't blame the system for what a few individuals did.
 
2012-07-13 12:07:40 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: I also see that you insult people gratuitously


Pot, kettle on line 1. You knew what I meant from my original message, but decided snark was more important that substance. I am merely returning the favor.
 
2012-07-13 12:07:44 PM  

homeschooled: Their program would've gone down the drain. Joe Paterno would've retired years ago. He wouldn't have a wins record. They wouldn't have any Big 10 titles during that time. they would've had to totally rebuild. BUT INSTEAD they covered it up for over TEN F*CKING YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS so their program wouldn't fall apart, and you're saying "oh just punish the few who covered it up." That isn't justice. The school and program GREATLY benefitted from this. Not punishing them is ridiculous


Everything you're saying they gained from it is going to happen anyway, just later, aside from Paterno having a record (though if the initial charges occur in 1998, there's no reason for Paterno to leave).

ThreeEdgedSword: While you are right, that isn't news to me.


Then why pretend that this instance of it happening is particularly significant?
 
2012-07-13 12:07:53 PM  

homeschooled: There are a lot of bump mother f*ckers in here. Saying the program shouldn't be punished is ridiculous. Their program would've been in the shiatter had this shower incident come out when it happened. NO recruits would've taken a tour through the showers and been like, oh I want to go to this school and shower in these showers every day where a little kid was raped! Awesome!

Their program would've gone down the drain. Joe Paterno would've retired years ago. He wouldn't have a wins record. They wouldn't have any Big 10 titles during that time. they would've had to totally rebuild. BUT INSTEAD they covered it up for over TEN F*CKING YEARSSSSSSSSSSSSS so their program wouldn't fall apart, and you're saying "oh just punish the few who covered it up." That isn't justice. The school and program GREATLY benefitted from this. Not punishing them is ridiculous

I can't believe there are people in here even saying that. You support program bans when coaches illegally recruit for years because it benefits the program, but not when they cover up rape to benefit their program? RIGHT. That makes sense.

So the next time it comes out that a major successful university footbal program has been illegally recruiting star athletes for years and the university wants to just fire the coach and have everyone forget about it, come back to me and let me know if you'll be OK with that. Because that recruiting benefit would be the same as not having to tell recruits that a little kid got raped in your showers.


You make a good point. If the NCAA doesn't slam PSU hard, then the coverup worked. Not only did it delay the reckoning for 15 years (allowing for more raped children, as well), but the coverup reduced the overall effect the serial rapist had on the institution.

The coverup should not be rewarded.
 
2012-07-13 12:08:10 PM  

Iceman_Cometh: Not wanting anyone to tear down the apartment complex, just to bug bomb one apartment.


I think this is more akin to Outbreak.
 
2012-07-13 12:08:37 PM  
Here's the question about SMU's death penalty that everyone always forgets to ask:

Did it cause SMU's football program to behave itself afterwards?

From all indications, the answer is yes. They sucked as a football team, but they got reminded what their actual purpose is in the context of an institution of higher learning.
 
2012-07-13 12:08:59 PM  
Well, remember there was a murder at Baylor and subsequent cover-up. Last I checked they're playing basketball, albeit pretty mediocre basketball.
 
2012-07-13 12:09:30 PM  

Sliding Carp: Don't blame the system for what a few individuals did.


The program is what motivated the many individuals to do what they did. The program IS the problem.
 
2012-07-13 12:09:32 PM  

r0Be: Seems like a good list of companies to let know how you feel about the fact that the NCAA might decide that there is no need to punish a member institution for concealing and enabling child sex abuse within it's football facilities.


That's fine and all. But first and foremost this is about Penn State enabling child rape, so go boycott or picket their donors and their sponsors. Tell family and friends who are alumni not to support the university unless it does the right thing and shuts down it's football program.

I don't understand why everyone is jumping on the NCAA's back, not the NCAA doesn't deserve it.
 
2012-07-13 12:10:42 PM  

rka: precious_crotchflake: The football program itself is not a criminal enterprise

How is it not? They repeatedly covered up criminal behavior for monetary gain (or to avoid monetary loss).

That's almost a textbook definition of a criminal enterprise.


"They"= the specific people mentioned in the Freeh report. Managers come and go from businesses all the time. Sometimes they improve the culture, sometimes they drag it down. Either way, that has no bearing on the business itself. The business is neutral ( unless, as I said, the business is really the Mob or similar criminal enterprise.)
 
2012-07-13 12:11:02 PM  

enricofermi: Well, remember there was a murder at Baylor and subsequent cover-up. Last I checked they're playing basketball, albeit pretty mediocre basketball.


Again, it wasn't Baylor University that was conducting the cover-up. It was the coach of the program acting on his own authority committing the coverup. That was as high as it went, and it was the only reason Baylor wasn't given the death penalty.
 
2012-07-13 12:11:26 PM  

gimmegimme: If the NCAA doesn't slam PSU hard, then the coverup worked. Not only did it delay the reckoning for 15 years (allowing for more raped children, as well), but the coverup reduced the overall effect the serial rapist had on the institution.


Delaying the reckoning does not benefit the program, as money toward football only increases, and with upcoming contracts and a potential division split again looming, you don't want to be in the sh*tter when that comes around.

And how did it reduce the effect? The effect of an immediate outing would have been far less of a scandal than it currently is.
 
2012-07-13 12:11:35 PM  
Forget it, this just isn't worth it anymore. The hardcore NCAA football fans as well as the contrarians will just deflect, deflect, deflect in order to protect their creepy f*cking game. Just know that we all know what college football is now and, by extension, what you are.
 
2012-07-13 12:12:04 PM  

enricofermi: Well, remember there was a murder at Baylor and subsequent cover-up. Last I checked they're playing basketball, albeit pretty mediocre basketball.


Baylor cooperated with the NCAA and it turned out the coverup was purely the work of the coach, given the school's immediate cooperation the NCAA saw the school was on the up and up and that it was just the work of one person not a team or institution issue.
 
2012-07-13 12:12:38 PM  

Sliding Carp: Don't blame the system for what a few individuals did.


People in charge of the football department were groping, allowing people to grope, or ignoring the groping of children.
High ups in the college allowed this to happen, to protect the school's revenue and reputation (which is also revenue).

The college was practically a shell corporation for pedophiles
 
2012-07-13 12:12:41 PM  

kwame: alywa: So what?

alywa: Let it burn.

I look forward to your resignation once you discover someone at your job committed a felony.


If my company had people in the highest positions in management engaging in a conspiracy and a coverup to hide the rape of young boys then my whole company should be shut down.
 
2012-07-13 12:13:12 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: Inflatable Rhetoric: nmiguy: Sandusky's wife should go to jail too. She knew what was happening.

Exactly right.

Accessory after the fact.


Aiding & abetting, during the fact.
 
2012-07-13 12:13:48 PM  

IAmRight: The effect of an immediate outing would have been far less of a scandal than it currently is.


Then why didn't they report it right away?
 
2012-07-13 12:13:57 PM  

Gosling: Here's the question about SMU's death penalty that everyone always forgets to ask:

Did it cause SMU's football program to behave itself afterwards?

From all indications, the answer is yes. They sucked as a football team, but they got reminded what their actual purpose is in the context of an institution of higher learning.


University of Chicago many, many years ago was THE college football powerhouse.They then abolished the program because it was felt that it overshadowed academia. This actually happened.
 
2012-07-13 12:14:11 PM  

CheatCommando: Galloping Galoshes: I also see that you insult people gratuitously

Pot, kettle on line 1. You knew what I meant from my original message, but decided snark was more important that substance. I am merely returning the favor.


I used parallel construction to answer your argument. You confuse (very mild) sarcasm with insult. Similar to your confusing a reorg with actually doing something.
 
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