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(Mega 949)   If your star witness got his information from Wikipedia, you may want to rethink your legal strategy. THIS INCLUDES YOU, U.S. Department of Justice   (mega949.com) divider line 116
    More: Fail, U.S. Department of Justice, Wikipedia, vote-by-mails, expert witnesses, East Texas, Texas Legislature, Texas, crossexaminations  
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9743 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2012 at 11:50 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-13 12:46:46 PM  

give me doughnuts: Kazan: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

because it isn't actually free

Kazan: "we created a free ID, but we closed your only place to get it within a 3 hours drive"

"... so you have to take a day off work [which you cannot afford] and drive 6 hours..."


If they can drive somewhere, then they are already is possession of all the ID they need to vote.


*Rolleyes*

have a friend drive them.
 
2012-07-13 12:48:16 PM  
DERP (noun, I guess?): The word used in place of coherently expressing one's opinions and/or objections to another's statement. Often used in a gun-and-run manor.

Example:

Person 1: Here are several sources for my information.
Person 2: DERP! lololol
Person 1: Okay, did you read this? Do you have information supporting your claim?
Person 2: ...
Person 1: Gah.
 
2012-07-13 12:48:18 PM  

Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.

Poll tax, grok it.



Anyone claiming positive identification is the same as a poll tax is being pretty reactionary.


Not to mention just plain retarded
 
2012-07-13 12:50:31 PM  

Joe Blowme: Not to mention just plain retarded


Careful with that axe, Eugene.
 
2012-07-13 12:53:17 PM  

Deucednuisance: Joe Blowme: Not to mention just plain retarded

Careful with that axe, Eugene.


a very fine song indeed
 
2012-07-13 12:54:18 PM  

Cyno01: Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.

Ok, not a poll tax, how about just outright voter suppression? What if say a state passed a voter ID law, closed DMVs in areas with the highest amount of people who would need to get an ID and also instruct DMV workers not to inform citizens that the ID to vote is free...

Oh wait, WI did that.


I hate to ask, but do you have a citation for such a claim? Is there possibly an unrelated reason a DMV was closed? Was there another DMV in the same area and so maybe you are making a strawman argument? I seriously doubt DMVs were closed in areas without another branch being within the same geographical area...so basically instead of a 5 minute bus ride, it was a 15 minute bus ride. As to instructing DMV workers to not inform citizens...seeing as how most DMV employees are union employees, I seriously doubt this claim.



give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

When its policy not to tell people they can get it for free?


the classic no personal responsibility answer..."No I didn't ask if the ID was fee, but...but...but they didn't tell me it was free...now I has a sad"
 
2012-07-13 12:54:22 PM  

WhyKnot: Theaetetus: Notice there's a subtle shift in context before Wiki is mentioned in the article:

Nice try, Subs.

to be fair, the 'expert' is testifying as an expert (someone with specialized knowledge of a particular field such that his/her knowledge is beyond that of the average person)...his book is going to be a part of his knowledge base with establishes him as an expert... proving his book is basically a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data....well yeah, that sort of shoots a hole in his testimony and raises serious questions about his 'expert' status in the subject matter he is testifying about.


Really? Have you checked the Wiki pages he mentions in his book? Have you followed their citations? No?
Then how can you say that it's "gathered from unsubstantiated data"? In fact, your entire complaint here seems to be based on unsubstantiated hearsay in this already-debunked article. Doesn't that raise serious questions about the validity of your criticism?

Frankly, it's more than a bit hypocritical of you to be calling things "unsubstantiated" when you, yourself, have never confirmed that they actually are.
 
2012-07-13 12:57:30 PM  

Theaetetus: WhyKnot: Theaetetus: Notice there's a subtle shift in context before Wiki is mentioned in the article:

Nice try, Subs.

to be fair, the 'expert' is testifying as an expert (someone with specialized knowledge of a particular field such that his/her knowledge is beyond that of the average person)...his book is going to be a part of his knowledge base with establishes him as an expert... proving his book is basically a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data....well yeah, that sort of shoots a hole in his testimony and raises serious questions about his 'expert' status in the subject matter he is testifying about.

Really? Have you checked the Wiki pages he mentions in his book? Have you followed their citations? No?
Then how can you say that it's "gathered from unsubstantiated data"? In fact, your entire complaint here seems to be based on unsubstantiated hearsay in this already-debunked article. Doesn't that raise serious questions about the validity of your criticism?

Frankly, it's more than a bit hypocritical of you to be calling things "unsubstantiated" when you, yourself, have never confirmed that they actually are.


You cant even source wiki in a college paper so his citing them is laughable.
 
2012-07-13 12:58:08 PM  

BitwiseShift: Poll tax of $140.


Jim? Jim Crow, is that you? Damn, boy, I haven't heard a peep out of you since 2008. You been busy keepin' the colored down in Alabama or somethin'?
 
2012-07-13 01:00:58 PM  

Cyno01: Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.

Poll tax, grok it.



Anyone claiming positive identification is the same as a poll tax is being pretty reactionary.

Ok, not a poll tax, how about just outright voter suppression? What if say a state passed a voter ID law, closed DMVs in areas with the highest amount of people who would need to get an ID and also instruct DMV workers not to inform citizens that the ID to vote is free...

Oh wait, WI did that.


give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

When its policy not to tell people they can get it for free?


So you'd be okay with just prosecute people with intent to abuse the law, and quit claiming the law in inherently bad.

Good, then we agree. It's not abusive to require IDs, but states can be abusive with implementing it. Fight the abuses.
 
2012-07-13 01:02:18 PM  

Theaetetus: WhyKnot: Theaetetus: Notice there's a subtle shift in context before Wiki is mentioned in the article:

Nice try, Subs.

to be fair, the 'expert' is testifying as an expert (someone with specialized knowledge of a particular field such that his/her knowledge is beyond that of the average person)...his book is going to be a part of his knowledge base with establishes him as an expert... proving his book is basically a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data....well yeah, that sort of shoots a hole in his testimony and raises serious questions about his 'expert' status in the subject matter he is testifying about.

Really? Have you checked the Wiki pages he mentions in his book? Have you followed their citations? No?
Then how can you say that it's "gathered from unsubstantiated data"? In fact, your entire complaint here seems to be based on unsubstantiated hearsay in this already-debunked article. Doesn't that raise serious questions about the validity of your criticism?

Frankly, it's more than a bit hypocritical of you to be calling things "unsubstantiated" when you, yourself, have never confirmed that they actually are.


would't wikipedia have been his secondary source, meaning that he should have looked through wikipedia, accessed their source material and then siting their links as his primary source...meaning that his 'facts' wouldn't have come from wikipedia?

Hey, if you want to believe that wiki articles are 'facts', go for it.
 
2012-07-13 01:05:08 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-13 01:06:55 PM  

Joe Blowme: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x303]


exactly!

Why are people opposed to preventing voter fraud?
 
2012-07-13 01:07:27 PM  

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Jesus, first we had to free the slaves, now we have to let them vote for free. These disenfranchised minorities just want free stuff.


That's it. I finally understand what Derpville hates about minorities. Derpville loves it's stupid. It's dumbness. It has gone to great lengths and great expense to build up that much stupidity.

And all of these groups are insisting on free-dumb. It's class warfare. It's the redistribution of stupidity.
 
2012-07-13 01:11:16 PM  

WhyKnot: Cyno01: Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.

Ok, not a poll tax, how about just outright voter suppression? What if say a state passed a voter ID law, closed DMVs in areas with the highest amount of people who would need to get an ID and also instruct DMV workers not to inform citizens that the ID to vote is free...

Oh wait, WI did that.

I hate to ask, but do you have a citation for such a claim? Is there possibly an unrelated reason a DMV was closed? Was there another DMV in the same area and so maybe you are making a strawman argument? I seriously doubt DMVs were closed in areas without another branch being within the same geographical area...so basically instead of a 5 minute bus ride, it was a 15 minute bus ride. As to instructing DMV workers to not inform citizens...seeing as how most DMV employees are union employees, I seriously doubt this claim.



give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

When its policy not to tell people they can get it for free?

the classic no personal responsibility answer..."No I didn't ask if the ID was fee, but...but...but they didn't tell me it was free...now I has a sad"


No, but its a little different when a directive is handed down telling employees to specifically NOT tell people about it.

DMV Closings in democratic districts.

Not informing people voting IDs are free.

It seems unbelievable because it is so out there, but its actually happening, this sort of stuff makes you start picturing the WI GOP twirling a Snidely Whiplash like mustache.
 
2012-07-13 01:11:36 PM  

Kazan: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

because it isn't actually free

Kazan: "we created a free ID, but we closed your only place to get it within a 3 hours drive"

"... so you have to take a day off work [which you cannot afford] and drive 6 hours..."


where is this person with a supposed 6hr drive? Why couldn't the DoJ find them when you could?
 
2012-07-13 01:19:31 PM  

give me doughnuts: It's too easy to be eligible to vote. All you have to do is be born in this country and manage to stay alive for 18 years.

I had a dog that managed to do that.


I expect it voted Democrat at least once then...
 
2012-07-13 01:20:34 PM  

JackieRabbit: BitwiseShift: Poll tax of $140.

Jim? Jim Crow, is that you? Damn, boy, I haven't heard a peep out of you since 2008. You been busy keepin' the colored down in Alabama or somethin'?


WHO YOU CALLIN' BOY?!?!?!?!
 
2012-07-13 01:22:34 PM  

Cyno01: WhyKnot: Cyno01: Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.


No, but its a little different when a directive is handed down telling employees to specifically NOT tell people about it.

DMV Closings in democratic districts.

Not informing people voting IDs are free.

It seems unbelievable because it is so out there, but its actually happening, this sort of stuff makes you start picturing the WI GOP twirling a Snidely Whiplash like mustache.


Thank you.

The not telling people about the free voter IDs is shady...no going to lie. If the issue is about making sure people have the proper ID, there is zero reason to tell employees not to tell people about it.

With respect to the closing of offices, I am less inclined to find shady dealings. In a state that is actually trying to reduce it expenditures (unlike CA where we are just going to attempt to tax our way to a balanced budget), the closures are economically motivated...hell, many of the sites are "temporary sites".

I really dislike politics...shady shady people on both sides...turning community against community.
 
2012-07-13 01:23:14 PM  

Cyno01: WhyKnot: Cyno01: Mr Guy: Kazan: THEY DON'T HAVE IT.

Ok, not a poll tax, how about just outright voter suppression? What if say a state passed a voter ID law, closed DMVs in areas with the highest amount of people who would need to get an ID and also instruct DMV workers not to inform citizens that the ID to vote is free...

Oh wait, WI did that.

I hate to ask, but do you have a citation for such a claim? Is there possibly an unrelated reason a DMV was closed? Was there another DMV in the same area and so maybe you are making a strawman argument? I seriously doubt DMVs were closed in areas without another branch being within the same geographical area...so basically instead of a 5 minute bus ride, it was a 15 minute bus ride. As to instructing DMV workers to not inform citizens...seeing as how most DMV employees are union employees, I seriously doubt this claim.



give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

When its policy not to tell people they can get it for free?

the classic no personal responsibility answer..."No I didn't ask if the ID was fee, but...but...but they didn't tell me it was free...now I has a sad"

No, but its a little different when a directive is handed down telling employees to specifically NOT tell people about it.

DMV Closings in democratic districts.

Not informing people voting IDs are free.

It seems unbelievable because it is so out there, but its actually happening, this sort of stuff makes you start picturing the WI GOP twirling a Snidely Whiplash like mustache.


That article says the next DMV is only 30 minutes away and they extended the hour.

Got something better?

This seems like a case of Wiki inception. Where a problem exists and cited because it keeps getting repeated.
 
2012-07-13 01:29:42 PM  
Here's the truth: There has never been a documented case of widespread voter fraud committed by citizens at the polling place. All election fraud is committed away from the polls by politicians and election officials. We often here the stories about how many dead people voted for the Daleys in Chicago, but we seem to have forgotten that those ballots stuffed into the box after the polls closed.

Think about it. Would you waste YOUR time to vote under someone else's identity? I know I couldn't be bothered and I have never met anyone who could.
 
2012-07-13 01:33:30 PM  
The good news is, maybe we can start removing Texans from the House of Representatives, and also reduce the amount of electoral votes they have:

". But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."
 
2012-07-13 01:45:51 PM  

stonicus: Voting requires me to go to the voting poll... this takes either gas to put in the car, or food in my belly so I can walk, and in essence, amounts to a poll tax. They should just call me and ask for my vote... which requires me to own a phone and there a phone poll tax. *sigh* I just can't win.


"And even if they send a man around to my door, i have to own a house or a mailbox or a tent flap first, and I have to live long enough to vote, so feeding and surviving the harsh Texan elements cost me money, It's a TAX!"

Honestly, the first three posters on this thread made me think that they were college interns paid the minimum wage by some party purely for the purposes of making every political discussion look like the other side was always wrong and their party was full of saints struggling vainly to hold off the ravenous maw of evil other party.
 
2012-07-13 01:47:03 PM  

Mrbogey: Kazan: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

because it isn't actually free

Kazan: "we created a free ID, but we closed your only place to get it within a 3 hours drive"

"... so you have to take a day off work [which you cannot afford] and drive 6 hours..."

where is this person with a supposed 6hr drive? Why couldn't the DoJ find them when you could?


in Wisconsin


WhyKnot: CA where we are just going to attempt to tax our way to a balanced budget


part of california's issues is insufficient taxation. voter initiative to limit taxation, the a bunch of voter initiative mandated spending. you cannot have both.
 
2012-07-13 01:51:25 PM  

WhyKnot: Theaetetus: WhyKnot: Theaetetus: Notice there's a subtle shift in context before Wiki is mentioned in the article:

Nice try, Subs.

to be fair, the 'expert' is testifying as an expert (someone with specialized knowledge of a particular field such that his/her knowledge is beyond that of the average person)...his book is going to be a part of his knowledge base with establishes him as an expert... proving his book is basically a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data....well yeah, that sort of shoots a hole in his testimony and raises serious questions about his 'expert' status in the subject matter he is testifying about.

Really? Have you checked the Wiki pages he mentions in his book? Have you followed their citations? No?
Then how can you say that it's "gathered from unsubstantiated data"? In fact, your entire complaint here seems to be based on unsubstantiated hearsay in this already-debunked article. Doesn't that raise serious questions about the validity of your criticism?

Frankly, it's more than a bit hypocritical of you to be calling things "unsubstantiated" when you, yourself, have never confirmed that they actually are.

would't wikipedia have been his secondary source, meaning that he should have looked through wikipedia, accessed their source material and then siting their links as his primary source...meaning that his 'facts' wouldn't have come from wikipedia?

Hey, if you want to believe that wiki articles are 'facts', go for it.


Wouldn't it have been nice if you actually read my post, rather than looking like an idiot?
 
2012-07-13 01:52:56 PM  
More importantly, WhyKnot, you're continuing with your hypocrisy. You have never read his book. You have never looked at his list of sources or footnotes. You haven't looked at the wiki pages that the article mentions. And yet you're whining about stuff being unsubstantiated.
'Nuff said.
 
2012-07-13 01:53:41 PM  

caramba421: The good news is, maybe we can start removing Texans from the House of Representatives, and also reduce the amount of electoral votes they have:

". But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."


But only three-fifths for the colored and the wetbacks, right?
 
2012-07-13 01:56:49 PM  
I am an expert, just let me Google that issue - because everything on the interwebs is true
 
2012-07-13 01:58:12 PM  

give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?


I HAD TO SPEND $40 IN GAS TO GET A "FREE" ID. I HAD TO TAKE AN UNPAID DAY OFF WORK TO GET A "FREE" ID.

stop being such a dick, and accept this bullshiat for what it is.
 
2012-07-13 02:04:33 PM  

WhyKnot: I really dislike politics...shady shady people on both sides...turning community against community.


I completely agree with this statement. I have no problem with differing philosophies, goals, expectations for the future, etc., but why do both sides always have to run with an "all or nothing" approach to getting things done? Why can't people accept that things are never truly black or white? Compromise. Isn't that what an educated government is supposed to be about?
 
2012-07-13 02:06:29 PM  

vudutek: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

I HAD TO SPEND $40 IN GAS TO GET A "FREE" ID. I HAD TO TAKE AN UNPAID DAY OFF WORK TO GET A "FREE" ID.

stop being such a dick, and accept this bullshiat for what it is.


Stop being a moran and admit you don't know what the hell a "poll tax" actually is.
 
2012-07-13 02:07:39 PM  

Theaetetus: More importantly, WhyKnot, you're continuing with your hypocrisy. You have never read his book. You have never looked at his list of sources or footnotes. You haven't looked at the wiki pages that the article mentions. And yet you're whining about stuff being unsubstantiated.
'Nuff said.


From the article:

"In fact, Kousser admitted that he got many of the 'facts' used to buttress these bizarre claims from 'Wikipedia,'"

Why would he say wikipedia if actually pulled from the primary? I am just working from what the article said.
 
2012-07-13 02:09:03 PM  

vudutek: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

I HAD TO SPEND $40 IN GAS TO GET A "FREE" ID. I HAD TO TAKE AN UNPAID DAY OFF WORK TO GET A "FREE" ID.

stop being such a dick, and accept this bullshiat for what it is.


If you're burning gas to drive to get the ID, then you already have all the ID you need to vote.
If you have a job, then you already have all the ID you need to vote.

Once again, stop being such a moran.
 
2012-07-13 02:10:25 PM  

Kazan: Mrbogey: Kazan: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?


part of california's issues is insufficient taxation. voter initiative to limit taxation, the a bunch of voter initiative mandated spending. you cannot have both.


I hear ya. Our problem is also a legislature that is in the pocket of the public employee unions...but let's not have that discussion now.
 
2012-07-13 02:16:05 PM  

give me doughnuts: vudutek: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

I HAD TO SPEND $40 IN GAS TO GET A "FREE" ID. I HAD TO TAKE AN UNPAID DAY OFF WORK TO GET A "FREE" ID.

stop being such a dick, and accept this bullshiat for what it is.

If you're burning gas to drive to get the ID, then you already have all the ID you need to vote.
If you have a job, then you already have all the ID you need to vote.

Once again, stop being such a moran.


I would offer him something along the line of "spending $40 on a bus ticket to get the ID" (which I'm not sure if ID is required for post-9/11 bus travel), but having a job should certainly cover the ID requirement. Of course, if he's getting paid under the table to avoid the ID requirement, then he should be able to easily afford the bus ticket from money that he didn't spend paying his taxes.

I'm pretty sure that he's just in the mood to be argumentative, though.
 
2012-07-13 02:20:51 PM  

Theaetetus: More importantly, WhyKnot, you're continuing with your hypocrisy. You have never read his book. You have never looked at his list of sources or footnotes. You haven't looked at the wiki pages that the article mentions. And yet you're whining about stuff being unsubstantiated.
'Nuff said.


Why are you white knighting the DoJ? Oh I know, because Holder and Obama are democrats.

Let's not worry about the feds refusal to enforce boarders (yes I understand bush did the same, and I didn't like it then).....that Holder doesn't care about actual voter intimidation by the Black Panthers...let's not worry about the Fast and Furious gun program...let's not talk about the actual hate speech put forth by democrats against republican ...let's not worry about the doubt standard associated with criticism of sitting presidents depending upon their skin color and political affiliation....no, we should absolutely be worries about states saying that people should provide a photo ID to vote.
 
2012-07-13 02:40:10 PM  
Wow, liberal butthurt is strong.

Liberals are dumb, end of story.
 
2012-07-13 02:40:24 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: feds could not produce a single person, or provide the name of a single person, who will legitimately be unable to vote due to voter i.d.

They don't really have to.


Yeah, what's with that silly "evidence" thingy that's supposed to be presented in courts anyway.

Among the people who the DOJ listed as 'lacking the required documentation needed to vote' are Former President George W. Bush, San Antonio State Senator Leticia Van de Putte, and Licia Ellis, who's husband, Houston state Senator Rodney Ellis, on Wednesday blasted the voter i.d. law as 'just like the racist murder of James Byrd' who was dragged to death in east Texas in 1998.

Oh, you mean THAT evidence. I like your style. I encourage you to keep it up. *snert*
 
2012-07-13 02:46:36 PM  

JackieRabbit: caramba421: The good news is, maybe we can start removing Texans from the House of Representatives, and also reduce the amount of electoral votes they have:

". But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."

But only three-fifths for the colored and the wetbacks, right?


I adhere strictly to Originalism. Since Mexicans aren't in the Constitution explicitly, they don't exist.
 
2012-07-13 02:52:10 PM  

Kazan: Mrbogey: Kazan: give me doughnuts: Answer the question: How is a free ID a "tax"?

because it isn't actually free

Kazan: "we created a free ID, but we closed your only place to get it within a 3 hours drive"

"... so you have to take a day off work [which you cannot afford] and drive 6 hours..."

where is this person with a supposed 6hr drive? Why couldn't the DoJ find them when you could?

in Wisconsin.


Who?
 
2012-07-13 02:52:57 PM  

WhyKnot: I am just working from what the article said.


In other words, your post is:

WhyKnot: a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data

 
2012-07-13 02:56:29 PM  
It seems to me that since no voter fraud seems to happen by voters that the necessity for a voter ID is pointless--seriously, are there any cases?

ID is not necessary for many things in this world. If you don't drive, you don't need a license. If you don't have a job, you don't need an ID, and there are many of unemployed people right now. You don't need a bank account, so you don't need an ID to open one. I didn't have a birth certificate until I was 16.

You don't need an ID to exist, even if it's improbable that people don't have any, and if the state is going to require you to have an ID to vote, they better make damn certain that it's the easiest process ever, since anything else will potentially disenfranchise people. Hell, they should do everything short of coming to your door.

It doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.
 
2012-07-13 03:05:22 PM  
OKAY FARKERS, HERE COME THE FACTS:

There are between 12 and 20 million illegal aliens in this country, and most of them vote.

"-----citation needed!"

I don't need one citation, I'll give you 3.4 million; go to google and key in "illegal alien voting;" you will find about 3+ million references.

Since Obama beat McCain by 69 million to 59 million, it is a fair shot, we take away the illegal alien vote and it would be a mighty tight race. This year's election promises to be even tighter, so he is doing all he can to fatten up the rolls with people likely to vote for him.

"Poll tax---" my ass! Nobody survives in this country without documents, and no one suggests minorities are less likely to drive than anyone else. People in subsidized housing have cars; homeless people on the street have cars in many cases.

It's all just a scam to steal the election.

And the suckers fall for it more often than not.
 
2012-07-13 03:09:21 PM  

austerity101: It seems to me that since no voter fraud seems to happen by voters that the necessity for a voter ID is pointless--seriously, are there any cases?

ID is not necessary for many things in this world. If you don't drive, you don't need a license. If you don't have a job, you don't need an ID, and there are many of unemployed people right now. You don't need a bank account, so you don't need an ID to open one. I didn't have a birth certificate until I was 16.

You don't need an ID to exist, even if it's improbable that people don't have any, and if the state is going to require you to have an ID to vote, they better make damn certain that it's the easiest process ever, since anything else will potentially disenfranchise people. Hell, they should do everything short of coming to your door.

It doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.


For the whole "this never happens" crowd.

Students are more straightforward. At Marquette University in Milwaukee, where the campus newspaper polled 1,000 of them, 174 said they voted two, three or four times.

One told The Times he voted twice for Bush--once at a polling place on the Marquette campus and then by absentee ballot in Florida, where he would have been among those who gave Bush his whisper-thin margin.

"It's easy to vote more than once," the student said. "No one seems to care."
 
2012-07-13 03:11:25 PM  
 
2012-07-13 03:16:34 PM  

Theaetetus: WhyKnot: I am just working from what the article said.

In other words, your post is:
WhyKnot: a load of crap, gathered from unsubstantiated data



expert witness for Attorney General Holder, Kousser also testified:

"I tell my students not to trust Wikipedia. I should not have."

Trial Transcript, Tuesday, July 10, 2012, Vol. II at p. 99-100
 
2012-07-13 03:20:02 PM  

austerity101:

You don't need an ID to exist, even if it's improbable that people don't have any, and if the state is going to require you to have an ID to vote, they better make damn certain that it's the easiest process ever, since anything else will potentially disenfranchise people. Hell, they should do everything short of coming to your door.


The only items required to get the FREE voter ID card in Texas are your voter registration card and a social security card (which is free to obtain). In order to get a voter registration card you need to have a Driver License (valid ID for voting) or a Social Security Number. So if you are registered to vote, you have all the requirements needed to obtain a FREE voter ID card.

It doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.

Every time I've gone to vote, the workers at the poll have had the voter list sitting open on the table in front of them. I merely walk up, give them my name and address and they flip to the correct page where I sign (with no matching signature present). All I would need to do is give my neighbor's name or read one of the names from the open roll and I've just potentially disenfranchised that person. If they do decide to vote as well then they have to file a provisional ballot and show ID to prove their vote is legitimate and mine is not. That's why we need Voter ID laws. After all, "it doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.
 
2012-07-13 03:23:47 PM  

olddinosaur: I don't need one citation, I'll give you 3.4 million; go to google and key in "illegal alien voting;" you will find about 3+ million references.


I just did this. After 12 pages, I gave up. I didn't find one single reputable source to support your ludicrous claim. Not one. All of the hits were from right wing "news" and propaganda sites.

Tell us this: if illegal aliens are voting by the millions, why is it that every single election we have anymore is so close? If illegals were out in force voting on election day, because they tend to vote Democrat almost exclusively, Democrats would win with good margins.

A real fact: the Bush administration was "convinced" that illegal voter fraud was rampant and instructed the Attorney General to aggressively go after and prosecute people voting illegally. In the three years (2002 through 2005) before the DoJ decided that this was a waste of its time, it found only 14 non-citizens that voted illegally. In each case, the individuals were confused when they were interrogated and truly did not know that they were allowed to vote.

And try this from a report from the Brennen Center for Justice, which had been asked to study the issue:

"We are not aware of any documented cases in which individual noncitizens have either intentionally registered to vote or voted while knowing that they were ineligible. Given that the penalty (not only criminal prosecution, but deportation) is so severe, and the payoff (one incremental vote) is so minimal for any individual voter, it makes sense that extremely few noncitizens would attempt to vote, knowing that doing so is illegal.

Although there are a few recorded examples in which noncitizens have apparently registered or voted, investigators have concluded that they were likely not aware that doing so was improper. In one highly publicized case, for example, noncitizens were given voter registration forms by a group helping them through the naturalization process, immediately after successfully completing citizenship interviews with federal officials and receiving letters beginning "Congratulations, your application for citizenship has been approved." Though the actual swearing-in ceremonies were still up to 90 days away, these individuals most likely mistakenly thought it their obligation and privilege to complete the paperwork, and did not intentionally fabricate their citizenship status in front of federal officials who knew that they were noncitizens.

Far more common than these incidents of noncitizen voting are allegations of noncitizen voting that prove wholly unfounded. These claims are often premised on matching lists of voters from one place to another, but as with each of the examples above, upon closer inspection, the match process shows error. The interpretation may be flawed, as when two list entries under the same name indicate different individuals. Or the lists themselves may be flawed, with an individual marked due to a clerical error as voting when she did not in fact cast a ballot.

Government citizenship records - as the government itself acknowledges - are also replete with errors or incomplete information. Naturalization documentation may find its way into the government files slowly, or not at all, leaving outdated or inaccurate information for investigators looking for fraud. And this, in turn, leads to flawed accusations that noncitizens have been voting, when the voters in question have in fact become fully naturalized American citizens."

Those claiming that illegals are voting and ruining elections are either full of shiat or easily manipulated by right wing propagandists.
 
2012-07-13 03:25:17 PM  

rugman11: austerity101:

You don't need an ID to exist, even if it's improbable that people don't have any, and if the state is going to require you to have an ID to vote, they better make damn certain that it's the easiest process ever, since anything else will potentially disenfranchise people. Hell, they should do everything short of coming to your door.

The only items required to get the FREE voter ID card in Texas are your voter registration card and a social security card (which is free to obtain). In order to get a voter registration card you need to have a Driver License (valid ID for voting) or a Social Security Number. So if you are registered to vote, you have all the requirements needed to obtain a FREE voter ID card.

It doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.

Every time I've gone to vote, the workers at the poll have had the voter list sitting open on the table in front of them. I merely walk up, give them my name and address and they flip to the correct page where I sign (with no matching signature present). All I would need to do is give my neighbor's name or read one of the names from the open roll and I've just potentially disenfranchised that person. If they do decide to vote as well then they have to file a provisional ballot and show ID to prove their vote is legitimate and mine is not. That's why we need Voter ID laws. After all, "it doesn't even matter if it doesn't actually, at the time, disenfranchise anyone. It only matters if it could, potentially.


This X100. The ending is probably the most brilliant hook I've seen yet.
 
2012-07-13 03:29:56 PM  
I can actually think of two people off the top of my head who will be disenfranchised by the Voter ID law. One is my mother, and it's her fault entirely (her DL is expired and she can't get an ID because of outstanding warrants for tickets she not only didn't pay but didn't make arrangements to perform community service or something similar). The other is a friend of the family who was born at home back in the '30s or so and never issued a birth certificate, and was never able to get a SS card in large part because of that.

Of course, they're both white, so they don't fit the narrative anyway.

On a more general note, what prompts cries of disenfranchisement around here can get pretty ridiculous. During the midterm elections, there was one polling station (I think at a community center) that closed half their parking lot for repaving during early voting. Cue outcry. What made it particularly idiotic was that the polling place was located in a part of town where most people don't drive anyway.
 
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