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(The Daily Caller)   "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011." So....like half?   (dailycaller.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Fraser Institute, Canadians, public health care, Prince Edward Island, therapies, elective  
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4149 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2012 at 1:39 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-12 06:50:34 AM  

CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


if it's so amazing why would anyone want to be rid of it? Sorry, I can't link to the actual text but Fark won't allow WSJ links. It's not like Whole Foods is a haven for the right.
 
2012-07-12 06:51:29 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: quatchi: Find me a Canadian who wants to swap systems and I'll call him a liar to his face.

Or he/she reads the Farkin' Toronto Sun.

Seriously, have ever seen that disgusting tabloid? Some of the garbage they print is to the right of teabaggers. Scary that some Canadians actually believe that crap and vote based on their ignorant editorializing. These idiots are why we are stuck with Harper.


Toronto Sun sucks baboon balls, tis true.

That noted, the really hardcore RW Farkers read the Canadian Free Press which is just slightly to the left of Goebells.

/CFP has been described as "A Canadian version of WND"
//The writing of Judi MacLeod, it's editor, has been described as that of an "emotionally incontinent ninth grader,"
///So, yeah, a natural fit there.
 
2012-07-12 06:56:50 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!
 
2012-07-12 07:03:08 AM  
I'f you're going to announce you're nonpartisan before even saying your name, I'm going to assume you're extremely partisan.
 
2012-07-12 07:03:12 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!


According to who? I have Blue Cross through my employer. Covers 80% of dental, $200/yr/person for glasses, and I pay $5 per prescription. Stuff not covered by Health Care.
 
2012-07-12 07:04:02 AM  

balloot: Yup. And nobody goes bankrupt or doesn't get care.


You got cured from cancer and went bankrupt? Wahhh. Of all the first world problems. You're alive, you still have a roof over your head and don't have debt. Sounds terrible.

Being bankrupted for the cure for your diease is the weakest of arugments for health care change. I don't mean we can't do better, because we can, but single payer has so many problems, just like our current system in the US. With so many different healthcare systems around the world it seems we could take the best of all of those and make something better for the future that is the best we can do for everyone. Instead we get a one sided push through that neither side really wanted, but as long as you get enough people to sign off it's "okay."

When Obama said doctors would mistreat people for more $$$ it is as disgusting as a republican saying that universal healthcare is socialistic. The whole debate just shows how everyone in washington should be kicked out. They don't represent us, they represent some odd political goal that doesn't focus on the people but more on winning. You know who else is winning?
 
2012-07-12 07:04:10 AM  
46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.
 
2012-07-12 07:07:41 AM  
Stat is useless without # of USians who sought medical treatment outside the US in 2011 to compare to.
 
2012-07-12 07:10:37 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.

Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!


the whole point is that you won't need it. If you feel the need for private coverage because the things you need to be healthy aren't covered by your "universal" healthcare then your government is doing it wrong. Sweet Jezus on a lizard with a raygun eating crackers off a turtle! Which is the whole republican argument, we don't have the ability to sustain that level of care in the long term.
 
2012-07-12 07:11:26 AM  
How many were wintering in Florida? Need to go to a walk-in? Do we go to a clinic in town or drive 2000 milles back home?

More we need to know.
 
2012-07-12 07:13:16 AM  

wippit: Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.

I live in PEI, so I feel your pain.

A lot of that is a shortage of doctors, though. We lose a boatload of trained professionals to the US, where they can make a lot more money. If we had the right number of staff for the population, this would be less of an issue.

a few quick "here's how things went for me" of treatment:
- male permanent birth control - 1 year wait
- diagnosed kidney tumor - 6 specialist and surgery in a week flat (not me, my uncle)


A YEAR???

What, PEI won't pay for the procedure in NB or NS?
 
2012-07-12 07:14:56 AM  

randomjsa: I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.


Wow. That was remarkably lucid.
 
2012-07-12 07:17:31 AM  
So? Seems like a relatively small number.

I'm just going to keep on saying this, I guess:

My family has our health insurance through the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The Health Connector was amazingly easy to navigate and we found an affordable plan that is cheaper and covers more than the plan we had through my wife's former employer (I'm self-employed). We didn't have to change any doctors or specialists and there was no noticeable increase in wait times. I can see my GP within a week usually. The prescription plan we have now is far superior to what we had previously.

The only big change is that we have to regularly update our income information and fill out a few forms every year.

Because of this, we're finally starting to get our heads above water financially and we no longer have to choose between filling a prescription and buying groceries for the week.
 
2012-07-12 07:18:42 AM  

vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.


how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.
 
2012-07-12 07:21:07 AM  
lol they link to an article that says 83% of doctors consider quitting because of Obamacare... That is just too much bullshiat for me to swallow. Let me go pull some numbers out of my ass and call it a study.
 
2012-07-12 07:23:24 AM  

pedobearapproved: vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.

how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.


I really don't think we should be structuring our health system around Incredibly short sighted people and their ignorant feelings of immortality.
 
2012-07-12 07:35:21 AM  

Bondith: ciberido
timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.

It's funny 'cause you said that to a guy called Timujim.

untaken_name
The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.

The 43 precious-metal-catalysed synthetic steps to turn the raw material into the final product do add a few dollars to the cost. However, that doesn't justify perpetual patents and inflated prices, especially since a lot of the research to figure out those 43 steps happens at publically funded universities.


For most drugs, most development and clinical research is done by companies. The main contribution of academia is identifying targets for drugs.

When labs try to advancs a drug,
a huge problem is lack of reproducibility for any university study using a drug, once a moa has been discovered. Something like 90% of all studies performed at universities on potential drug candidates are not reliable and have to be repeated, because of the pressure to get research funding.
 
2012-07-12 07:50:16 AM  
"In other news, the nonpartisan Arizona tea party patriots have released a study, based on an extensive review of deaths statistics over the past three years, and have confirmed that millions of Americans have died as a result of the Obama Presidency."
 
2012-07-12 07:51:39 AM  
. . . and the time a specialist provides elective treatment

So, it's a 19 week wait for a nose job? Sounds about right.


emphasis mine
 
2012-07-12 07:52:53 AM  

PlatinumDragon: a few quick "here's how things went for me" of treatment:
- male permanent birth control - 1 year wait
- diagnosed kidney tumor - 6 specialist and surgery in a week flat (not me, my uncle)

A YEAR???

What, PEI won't pay for the procedure in NB or NS?


That was in NB. They had a year long wait too. But I didn't know that before I requested it, so I was stuck going there instead. PEI only has 1 urologist.

There's a severe shortage of specialists in all the Maritimes. Ontario and Quebec pay more, so they go there before moving to the US.
 
2012-07-12 07:54:22 AM  
Also, 45,000ish people seems extremely low, especially when you consider that Canada shares one of the longest international borders in the world with the United States, is a country of approximately 35 million people, and is a relatively wealthy, mobile, developed nation.

But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.
 
2012-07-12 07:55:19 AM  

Animatronik: For most drugs, most development and clinical research is done by companies. The main contribution of academia is identifying targets for drugs.


Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

ScienceDaily (Jan. 5, 2008) - A new study by two York University researchers estimates the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spends almost twice as much on promotion as it does on research and development, contrary to the industry's claim.

The researchers' estimate is based on the systematic collection of data directly from the industry and doctors during 2004, which shows the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spent 24.4% of the sales dollar on promotion, versus 13.4% for research and development, as a percentage of US domestic sales of US$235.4 billion
 
2012-07-12 07:57:32 AM  
On the other hand:

Driven by rising health care costs at home, nearly 1 million Californians cross the border each year to seek medical care in Mexico, according a new paper by UCLA researchers and colleagues published today in the journal Medical Care.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/
 
2012-07-12 07:59:06 AM  
Americans suffer from an illusion when we look at stats like this.

And it's a similar illusion when we say we have the "best healthcare in the world" ... that's like saying we have the hottest women ... it's a great thing for those who get to be involved, but pretty much a case of "so what" for everyone else.

It also depends on how you view the term "healthcare".

We have a really crappy system in my opinion. Frankly, I can't shop around, I can't figure out what I want because to me price is a strong leader of my actions. Why is it I can't know how much stuff is going to cost? I can know in equally complex things like Real Estate or Construction, but ooh it's too damn complicated.
 
2012-07-12 07:59:11 AM  

Chummer45: But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.


Confirmation bias confirmed!
 
2012-07-12 07:59:14 AM  
To reiterate: How many Americans were medical tourists because of insanely high costs? I bet it was a helluva lot more than 45k.
 
2012-07-12 08:01:00 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: pedobearapproved: vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.

how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.

I really don't think we should be structuring our health system around Incredibly short sighted people and their ignorant feelings of immortality.


For real. There's the ones who played the odds, predictably won, and now say "OMG, look how much money I saved in my 20s by being uninsured!"

On the other hand, there are kids in their 20s who think the same thing, and get diagnosed with cancer. Guess who ends up paying for the cancer treatment either way?

The argument basically boils down to "When I was 25, I played the lottery, and won the jackpot! Now I'm set for retirement! I have a great idea for fixing social security - why not just allow everyone to buy lottery tickets instead of paying social security taxes? Everyone would be a millionaire!"
 
2012-07-12 08:02:08 AM  
I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.
 
2012-07-12 08:05:38 AM  

farkityfarker: I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.


See this is why socialism is wrong, we defy natural selection with it!

Your friend should have had to pony up the money to prove he was a worthwhile citizen or gone without, lowering his chances of survival!

Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!
 
2012-07-12 08:08:16 AM  
Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.
 
2012-07-12 08:08:52 AM  

Raharu:
Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!


Money. It is the quintessential American delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
 
2012-07-12 08:08:57 AM  

trotsky: To reiterate: How many Americans were medical tourists because of insanely high costs? I bet it was a helluva lot more than 45k.


750,000 back in 2007 according to a PDF link I put up earlier.

Prolly more now.
 
2012-07-12 08:09:03 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


Some of this is, in some provinces, can be totally fixed by implementing better scheduling systems on the software side, and not being complete idiots. Get a referal to a neurologist in Nova Scotia and the first thing he does is says he can't do anything without an MRI. So then you wait for the MRI then have to get re-scheduled for the neurologist. The MRI should have been scheduled by the GP right off the bat for just before you go see the neurologist in the first place. Which is, I believe, what they do in Ontario.
 
2012-07-12 08:10:30 AM  

Chummer45: But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.


People from Windsor?

They're delusional. They have to be. They live in Windsor.
 
2012-07-12 08:13:53 AM  
From TFA: "Some of these patients will have been sent out of country by the public health care system due to a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided
in their home jurisdiction," the report concluded.


This happened to my dad in Edmonton. They flew him to Seattle a few years ago for a complicated procedure and PAID FOR EVERYTHING because while the procedurre was available in Edmonton, they didn't have a lot of experience with it (they actually told him that).

They sent an Edmonton doctor with him, who sat in on the procedure to learn a few tricks, and who was my dad's primary contact while in a US hospital.
 
2012-07-12 08:16:17 AM  

Ghastly: Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment.


I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.
 
2012-07-12 08:19:11 AM  
Looking at the actual survey the longest wait time was for "plastic surgery" and it was 21.8 weeks.Oncology on the other hand was 4 weeks. Keep in mind all these are for elective surgery and appointments.

I'd rather wait a few weeks for elective procedures than be bankrupt by unexpected necessary ones.
 
2012-07-12 08:20:19 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.


As far as medicine is concerned I would have to agree.

It's also far more christian and christ-like then most american Christians are comfortable with.
 
2012-07-12 08:21:44 AM  

limboslam: Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


120/month x 12 months = 1440 + "$10 out of pocket" = 1450

No mention of deductible, so either your employer is still picking up you deductible or you paid it in full... since you didn't mention it, i'll let your employer eat the cost of the $5k deductible

avg. cost of GP = $75
avg. cost of spec = $200

cost of visits with no insurance = $275

so you paid a corporation $1450 to cover 2 visits worth $275?

You sir got a hell of a deal! why don't more 'mericans do this? It's SO obvious this is the way to go!
 
2012-07-12 08:22:06 AM  

dittybopper: I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.


Sneaky bastards have been building their forces along the border for years. We've been blind to this menace for far too long.

On a more serious note: how does buying prescription drugs in Canada work if you're a US citizen? I don't live too close to the Great White North, but it might just help to defray the costs of a long motorcycle ride or snowboarding trip to Calgary.
 
2012-07-12 08:23:23 AM  

sno man: How many 'mericans are waiting just now?


You don't wait, you just don't get it, ever.
 
2012-07-12 08:24:09 AM  

CeroX: limboslam: Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

120/month x 12 months = 1440 + "$10 out of pocket" = 1450

No mention of deductible, so either your employer is still picking up you deductible or you paid it in full... since you didn't mention it, i'll let your employer eat the cost of the $5k deductible

avg. cost of GP = $75
avg. cost of spec = $200

cost of visits with no insurance = $275

so you paid a corporation $1450 to cover 2 visits worth $275?

You sir got a hell of a deal! why don't more 'mericans do this? It's SO obvious this is the way to go!


It is even worst if you consider his insurance is employer subsidized and counted towards his compensation package.
 
2012-07-12 08:25:12 AM  

dittybopper: I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.


It just doesn't matter. Canadians, Brits, Germans, they hop borders to pay docs in other countries so they can spend a little extra coin to get treatment for non-critical ailments quicker. This is well known. It's not a condemnation of either system, it's an example of the differing philosophies that guide each one.

What it ultimately comes down to is a matter of philosophy and ethics. If you think health care should be an auction where care is provided based on the highest bid irrespective of the actual need of the patient, you think the U.S. has a great system. If you think heath care should be doled out based solely on the needs of the patient, you think Canada has it right.

Personally, I think it's basic common sense to say Canada has it right.
 
2012-07-12 08:28:14 AM  

fireclown: On a more serious note: how does buying prescription drugs in Canada work if you're a US citizen? I don't live too close to the Great White North, but it might just help to defray the costs of a long motorcycle ride or snowboarding trip to Calgary.


Just hand in the script and pay the price (+$5-$10 dispensing fee). If you have no drug plan, they still sell it to you. It's not like you need to present ID or anything.
 
2012-07-12 08:29:52 AM  

Raharu: HotWingConspiracy: Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.

As far as medicine is concerned I would have to agree.

It's also far more christian and christ-like then most american Christians are comfortable with.


...And they're not mutually exclusive either. Mixed economies and all that.

I don't understand why many Americans can't grasp that some issues are better addressed with more Socialistic policies and others are better addressed with Capitalistic policies.
 
2012-07-12 08:30:04 AM  

wippit: Stuff not covered by Health Care.


the fark does this sentence even mean
 
2012-07-12 08:31:21 AM  
So 45k Canadians elected to go to another country for HC while ≈30M Americans relied on only the ER if they needed care. Clearly the USA is better.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:06 AM  

Raharu: farkityfarker: I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.

See this is why socialism is wrong, we defy natural selection with it!

Your friend should have had to pony up the money to prove he was a worthwhile citizen or gone without, lowering his chances of survival!

Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!


Agreed! This is why I'm going to vote for Romney. He obviously knows how to live right if he was able to amass a quarter billion dollars.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:51 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: My parents threw the stupid farking Canadians-coming-to-the-US-for-healthcare statistic at me a few months ago. Then, a few months later when they realized one of them needed surgery and they had no insurance, they were suddenly looking into having it done in MEXICO where they could afford it.

NOT NEWS: Then they realized that Obamacare made it possible for her to get insured and have the surgery here in the States, which is what they did. FARK: They still hate Obamacare.

It's really farking evil the way these right wing @ssholes are brainwashing people into accepting a system that bankrupts you when you get sick.


My dad will not stop emailing me nutty gold standard anti-socialized anything RON PAUL worshiping type rants. Every once in a while I get sick of it and tell him he's full of sh*t because his only source of income is social security and health care is medicare/VA hospitals.

That shuts him up for about two months.

..............

My healthcare in Toronto experience: UTI. Walk in clinic. 90min and $140 later I'm walking out the door pharmaceuticals in hand. Pretty comparible to 'Merica.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:55 AM  

Jackson Herring: wippit: Stuff not covered by Health Care.

the fark does this sentence even mean


What word are you having trouble with?
 
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