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(The Daily Caller)   "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011." So....like half?   (dailycaller.com) divider line 262
    More: Interesting, Fraser Institute, Canadians, public health care, Prince Edward Island, therapies, elective  
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4135 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2012 at 1:39 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



262 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-07-11 09:40:42 PM  
 
2012-07-11 09:42:59 PM  
Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?
 
2012-07-11 09:46:21 PM  
Poutrage.
 
2012-07-11 09:46:32 PM  
How does that compare to the number of Ameicans who had Indian surgeries or cross the border to buy pharmaceuticals in Canada or Mexico?
 
2012-07-11 09:49:26 PM  
So then this is a different Fraser institute than the Conservative Right-Libertarian Fraser Institute?
 
2012-07-11 09:53:27 PM  
The Fraser Institute is non partisan ish. The Daily Caller, not even so much. Slanted story has slippery sides.
19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist...what for water on the knee?
less that 3% of Canadians waiting for treatment any any given time... How many 'mericans are waiting just now?
AND how many more aren't even eligible for treatment?
46k Canadians have coin extra enough to blow to jump the queue and take a few days or maybe a couple of weeks off their treatment for SOMETHING NON LIFE THREATENING. Good for them, good for the American docs treating these assholes, every body wins, but it looks bad in the press. DC, FU. KTHXBI
 
2012-07-11 10:07:59 PM  
Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment. This is still covered by our government healthcare. Likewise Americans who live on the border will sometimes come across the border to get treatment in Canada if the treatment or equipment is not available where they live and the Canadian hospital is closer than the nearest American hospital that offers the same treatment or equipment, and if their health insurance will cover it.

This is hardly a case of Canadians (or Americans) "fleeing the country" for healthcare.

Likewise there are some people (in both Canada and the US) who will travel to "medical tourism" hospitals in countries such as India, Mexico, and Venezuela where they can get treatment in an environment that is more like a luxury resort than a hospital (I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice). They also go there because these countries will offer dangerous, controversial, or experimental treatments and procedures that are not approved in Canada or the US. As far as I know, these procedures will not be covered by our government health care but may be covered or partially covered by private insurance.

As I said, cross border healthcare is not unheard of for both Canadian and Americans who live alone the border. The difference between the Canadians going across the border for healthcare and the Americans going across the border for healthcare is our government pays for it when we get treated in an American hospital.
 
2012-07-11 10:28:28 PM  
Being the bastion of integrity that it is, I'm sure the Daily Caller gave due attention to the many thousands of Americans who seek medical care or medicine outside of the USA...right?

Oh...and "nonpartisan?"

multimedia.billybrew.com
 
2012-07-11 11:18:13 PM  
this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too. the perceived shortcomings of arbitrarily-chosen statistics in canada is a poor way to frame the argument against universal healthcare.

if they canada got these numbers up, such that this particular set of statistics would shine when compared to a free-market system, would that sway anyone's mind? of course it wouldn't. it's just chosen because it makes universal healthcare look bad and would be totally ignored if it didn't.
 
2012-07-11 11:36:20 PM  
Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(
 
2012-07-11 11:50:56 PM  
Isn't it the time of night for that one guy who traveled to America for a highly specialized surgery that he was paying for out of pocket to give an interview on FOX? Those always confirm my belief that USA is #1.
 
2012-07-11 11:59:07 PM  
The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.
 
2012-07-12 12:09:47 AM  
For those too lazy to look for the actual report, here's a link. (warning, PDF).

For those too lazy to click a link, go run your fat asses around the block a few times, then read these choice excerpts:

In 2011, a significant number of Canadians-an estimated
46,159-received treatment outside of the country.2 Increases
between 2010 and 2011 in the estimated number of patients
going outside Canada for treatment were seen in British
Columbia (5,565 to 9,180), Saskatchewan (943 to 1,221),
Manitoba (933 to 1,436), New Brunswick (282 to 526),
Nova Scotia (851 to 1,271), Prince Edward Island (44 to 54),
and Newfoundland and Labrador (130 to 433). Conversely,
Ontario (23,192 to 18,172) saw a decrease in the estimated
number of patients who received treatment outside Canada.3

SNIP

In 2011, 1.0% of all patients in Canada
were estimated to have received non-emergency medical
treatment outside Canada, the same as in 2010.


Wow, a whopping 1%!!! And it's the same as last year!! Clearly, this is a trend towards a breakdown in Canadian Health Care! Of course, this also includes elective surgeries, such as boob jobs, liposuction, and facelifts, but let's not let that ruin a good story...

So how about in the good ole US of A? What percentage get non-emergency medical care elsewhere?

Well, according to Gallup, 29% would consider going abroad for non-emergency medical treatment. But how many do?

Over the last few years, medical tourism has been steadily rising. In 2008, 540,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical procedures. In 2009, that number rose to 648,000, and in 2010 it was 878,000. It is expected to rise to 1,300,000 individuals by this year.

So we get 1.3 million, out of 310 million, or 0.41%. Of course, that number comes from the uninsured or under-insured, or those whose insurance company drops them when they get sick, right?

Of course, American Health Insurance Providers would NEVER send their patients to another country to receive medical care, right? Right?
 
2012-07-12 12:13:47 AM  

Chafed Willi: Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(


No, but the fact that the aspirin was likely made in China does.

Fun fact: China now produces about two-thirds of all aspirin and is poised to become the world's sole global supplier in the not-too-distant future.
 
2012-07-12 12:20:55 AM  

Rusty Shackleford: The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.


blogs.mcall.com

"Not on my network they don't."
 
2012-07-12 01:20:47 AM  

Ghastly: Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment. This is still covered by our government healthcare. Likewise Americans who live on the border will sometimes come across the border to get treatment in Canada if the treatment or equipment is not available where they live and the Canadian hospital is closer than the nearest American hospital that offers the same treatment or equipment, and if their health insurance will cover it.

This is hardly a case of Canadians (or Americans) "fleeing the country" for healthcare.

Likewise there are some people (in both Canada and the US) who will travel to "medical tourism" hospitals in countries such as India, Mexico, and Venezuela where they can get treatment in an environment that is more like a luxury resort than a hospital (I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice). They also go there because these countries will offer dangerous, controversial, or experimental treatments and procedures that are not approved in Canada or the US. As far as I know, these procedures will not be covered by our government health care but may be covered or partially covered by private insurance.

As I said, cross border healthcare is not unheard of for both Canadian and Americans who live alone the border. The difference between the Canadians going across the border for healthcare and the Americans going across the border for healthcare is our government pays for it when we get treated in an American hospital.


I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.
 
2012-07-12 01:25:50 AM  

ox45tallboy: For those too lazy to look for the actual report, here's a link. (warning, PDF).

For those too lazy to click a link, go run your fat asses around the block a few times, then read these choice excerpts:

In 2011, a significant number of Canadians-an estimated
46,159-received treatment outside of the country.2 Increases
between 2010 and 2011 in the estimated number of patients
going outside Canada for treatment were seen in British
Columbia (5,565 to 9,180), Saskatchewan (943 to 1,221),
Manitoba (933 to 1,436), New Brunswick (282 to 526),
Nova Scotia (851 to 1,271), Prince Edward Island (44 to 54),
and Newfoundland and Labrador (130 to 433). Conversely,
Ontario (23,192 to 18,172) saw a decrease in the estimated
number of patients who received treatment outside Canada.3

SNIP

In 2011, 1.0% of all patients in Canada
were estimated to have received non-emergency medical
treatment outside Canada, the same as in 2010.

Wow, a whopping 1%!!! And it's the same as last year!! Clearly, this is a trend towards a breakdown in Canadian Health Care! Of course, this also includes elective surgeries, such as boob jobs, liposuction, and facelifts, but let's not let that ruin a good story...

So how about in the good ole US of A? What percentage get non-emergency medical care elsewhere?

Well, according to Gallup, 29% would consider going abroad for non-emergency medical treatment. But how many do?

Over the last few years, medical tourism has been steadily rising. In 2008, 540,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical procedures. In 2009, that number rose to 648,000, and in 2010 it was 878,000. It is expected to rise to 1,300,000 individuals by this year.

So we get 1.3 million, out of 310 million, or 0.41%. Of course, that number comes from the uninsured or under-insured, or those whose insurance company drops them when they get sick, right?

Of course, American Health Insurance Providers would NEVER send their patients to another country to receive medical care, right? Right?


Just think how high the number of Americans going abroad for medical reasons would be if more had passports.
 
2012-07-12 01:29:21 AM  
I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.
 
2012-07-12 01:44:37 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Nonpartisan.


Maybe "nonpartisan" is the new "fair and balanced"?
 
2012-07-12 01:45:43 AM  

unlikely: So then this is a different Fraser institute than the Conservative Right-Libertarian Fraser Institute?


And did they ever find out what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs??
 
2012-07-12 01:47:20 AM  

Chafed Willi: Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(


Most of the active ingredients in your drugs come from India, Pakistan, and China. But that isn't new. It's been like that for ages. The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.
 
2012-07-12 01:50:29 AM  

timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.


I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.
 
2012-07-12 01:51:43 AM  
What a coincidence. 46,159 is exactly how many poor people die in the US each year because we have a retarded health care system and an uninformed and stupid electorate.
 
2012-07-12 01:51:52 AM  
Healthcare first, then election reform, then immigration, then abortion.
 
2012-07-12 01:52:07 AM  
I stopped reading at nonpartisan once I googled this place. I realized this wasn't some bizzarro universe where 1984-type doublespeak was the normal mode of communication.
 
2012-07-12 01:52:17 AM  
I've heard that many American women go to Mexico to have a breast implant procedure, because it's way cheaper
 
2012-07-12 01:53:37 AM  
SUBBY is a partisan hack. At least 2, possibly 5 errors in the headline.
 
2012-07-12 01:54:24 AM  

ciberido: timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.


Both of them?
 
2012-07-12 01:55:09 AM  
I like how the source document is authored by Nadeem Esmail and out of 6 references cited, he's authored 4 of them. Oh, I'm sure there's a very good explanation for this.

I am merely verbalizing.
 
2012-07-12 01:55:39 AM  
Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?
 
2012-07-12 01:57:06 AM  

cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?


That, sir, is anti-Semitic and has no place in a reputable forum such as Fark.
 
2012-07-12 01:57:16 AM  

Rusty Shackleford: The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.


Hahahaa. Nice.
 
2012-07-12 01:57:33 AM  

sno man: 19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist


I heard a new patient talking to my endocrinologist's receptionist in the waiting room in late June and they scheduled an appt. for mid-September.
 
2012-07-12 01:59:58 AM  

f00f: this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare


How do you feel about air? For? Against?
 
2012-07-12 02:00:05 AM  
In Watchmen, Nixon is still president in the 80's and there's a magical naked blue dude who has control over space and time.

In that universe, this is totes legit.TFA seems to be referring to that universe, instead of an actual real universe where you and I live.

Easy mistake to make. Those keys are right next to each other.
 
2012-07-12 02:01:00 AM  
ciberido
timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.


It's funny 'cause you said that to a guy called Timujim.

untaken_name
The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.

The 43 precious-metal-catalysed synthetic steps to turn the raw material into the final product do add a few dollars to the cost. However, that doesn't justify perpetual patents and inflated prices, especially since a lot of the research to figure out those 43 steps happens at publically funded universities.
 
2012-07-12 02:02:34 AM  

butt-nuggets: I've heard that many American women go to Mexico to have a breast implant procedure, because it's way cheaper


And you can smuggle a lot of drugs in those new double-D's.
 
2012-07-12 02:02:50 AM  
FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:12 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


Then you'll want the supplementary burn insurance.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:46 AM  

Ghastly: I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice


I had no idea that you'd already had the operation. Congratulations!

/Now show us!

CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


Has there ever been a think tank or lobby group that didn't claim to be non-partisan? "We're lobbying to outlaw solar power and increase oil subsidies, but we're non-partisan because we try to buy off both sides." and vice versa for liberal groups.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:59 AM  
How many brazilians is that? I never can do international conversions in my head ...
 
2012-07-12 02:06:46 AM  
In related news, a few million Americans sought medical treatment nowhere because they can't afford a routine doctor's visit. USA! USA! USA!
 
2012-07-12 02:07:51 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: How many brazilians is that? I never can do international conversions in my head ...


This many:

www.bbc.co.uk
 
2012-07-12 02:09:16 AM  
My Dad had to wait a little over 2 months for his knee replacement surgery here in the US. I guess it's time that we patriotic americans forgo our needed surgeries and medical treatments so the the rich important conservative douche bags can have next day service under Obama care.
 
2012-07-12 02:11:51 AM  

cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?


Or Canadians who are working abroad.
 
2012-07-12 02:12:37 AM  

bronyaur1: How does that compare to the number of Ameicans who had Indian surgeries or cross the border to buy pharmaceuticals in Canada or Mexico?


"Although up from 500,000 in 2006 to 750,000 in 2007, the number of Americans travelling abroad for healthcare is tipped to increase to 6 million by 2010. "

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/960/a-revolution-in-healthcare

The article is from January 2008. No idea what the current numbers are.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:32 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


--------------------

Nobody is claiming that the American system doesn't work great in many cases. The problem is that when it doesn't work, which is relatively often, someone ends up either bankrupt or not getting proper medical care. No other industrialized country lets this happen.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:34 AM  
encrypted-tbn2.google.com

In 2006, 500k US folks took off for healthcare in other countries...
Link

What have you found? I'm not finding more recent stats.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:48 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


I would take any numbers provided by the Daily Caller as somewhere between damned lies and statistics. The actual average is 2-4 weeks, depending on the specialist and local availability, which is right in line with my American experiences, and nearly 90% of everyone seen within 12 weeks. In my mom's case, her disintegrated hip referral took 26 weeks because only one man in all of northern California specialized in the procedure she needed. (She already had a titanium femur, so it wasn't a normal hip replacement.) Hers is the kind of extreme outlier case that doesn't happen often anywhere, though.

19 week average is probably sourced from a blog or chain letter somewhere.
 
2012-07-12 02:14:16 AM  

cc_rider: cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?

Or Canadians who are working abroad.


Or Canadians who live right on the border to where American facilities are closer than Canadian facilities. Like someone one from Windsor choosing Detroit over Toronto for something only available in the biggest cities.
 
2012-07-12 02:14:21 AM  
So, 34 million people in Canada.

Let's assume that 85% of those people sought medical treatment at least once last year.

That is .159%. About one sixth of one percent.

Wow, STAGGERING numbers. Especially considering that out of the 85% that go, many go multiple times in a year. Fark off, "non-partisan" Fraser Institute, you got nothing.
 
2012-07-12 02:16:16 AM  

foxyshadis: limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

I would take any numbers provided by the Daily Caller as somewhere between damned lies and statistics. The actual average is 2-4 weeks, depending on the specialist and local availability, which is right in line with my American experiences, and nearly 90% of everyone seen within 12 weeks. In my mom's case, her disintegrated hip referral took 26 weeks because only one man in all of northern California specialized in the procedure she needed. (She already had a titanium femur, so it wasn't a normal hip replacement.) Hers is the kind of extreme outlier case that doesn't happen often anywhere, though.

19 week average is probably sourced from a blog or chain letter somewhere.


Yeah there were a few wacky numbers in that article. Would love to run across other data, but am a) drunk b) tired c) lazy
 
2012-07-12 02:16:43 AM  
Wait, is 19 weeks supposed to be a long time to wait for a procedure. I've had to wait longer here in the US just to get my kid's vaccinations. I had to make an appointment 6 months in advance to have my wisdom teeth out, 4 months to get in to see my GP, 4 months to see a podiatrist, etc.. Oh and guess how much of that was covered by insurance...yeah, just the vaccinations, most of them.
 
2012-07-12 02:19:36 AM  

gadian: Wait, is 19 weeks supposed to be a long time to wait for a procedure. I've had to wait longer here in the US just to get my kid's vaccinations. I had to make an appointment 6 months in advance to have my wisdom teeth out, 4 months to get in to see my GP, 4 months to see a podiatrist, etc.. Oh and guess how much of that was covered by insurance...yeah, just the vaccinations, most of them.


This is just my anecdotal experience, but if you tell the doctor up front that you'll be paying cash in advance, you can often negotiate not only a substantially lower overall price, but a much quicker turnaround time, too. YMMV.
 
2012-07-12 02:19:40 AM  

rooftop235: [encrypted-tbn2.google.com image 225x225]

In 2006, 500k US folks took off for healthcare in other countries...
Link

What have you found? I'm not finding more recent stats.


Check my post upthread. The number actually declined in 2008, then started coming back up, and has been steadily rising ever since. Canada's number has been pretty flat the past few years.
 
2012-07-12 02:22:11 AM  
Whether or not a think tank is openly partisan is irrelevant to its agenda. As a number of posters have mentioned so far, the Fraser Institute is a right-wing, extremely libertarian western-Canadian based think tank that advocates privatizing Canada's health care system and pretty much anything else our governments do well.
 
2012-07-12 02:28:05 AM  
I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.
 
2012-07-12 02:29:26 AM  

bobbette: Whether or not a think tank is openly partisan is irrelevant to its agenda


s3-ak.buzzfed.com
 
2012-07-12 02:30:13 AM  

f00f: this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too.


So what are your reasons against universal healthcare? Honestly curious.
 
2012-07-12 02:32:43 AM  

fusillade762: So what are your reasons against universal healthcare?


All those damned freeloaders from Alpha Centauri.
 
2012-07-12 02:33:10 AM  

ciberido: Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.


Gyrfalcon: Both of them?


The one I was in supposedly was the best in the country, or one of the best ... I'm not really sure, but supposedly it was the hospital that ambassadors and other high muckety-mucks used. At least I think that's what they told me. I wasn't in the best possible state of mind and my grasp of the language was abysmal even before I got sick. My only significant complaint, honestly, was that they didn't provide me with clean water to drink, in a hospital, when one of my symptoms (I think) was dehydration.

The grape soup was really horrible, but not in a "failure to provide something truly essential" kind of way.



Bondith: It's funny 'cause you said that to a guy called Timujim.


Heh. Didn't notice at the time. Guess I owe him a bottle now.

www.gonomad.com

Fun fact: the preferred spelling is "Chinggis" apparently. I wonder how he wrote his own name, if indeed he ever did (there seems to be some dispute as to whether he were literate). The "classic Mongolian script" didn't exist before 1204, so what alphabet/script (if any) did Chinggis Khan write his name in before then, I wonder?
 
2012-07-12 02:33:54 AM  

balloot: limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

--------------------

Nobody is claiming that the American system doesn't work great in many cases. The problem is that when it doesn't work, which is relatively often, someone ends up either bankrupt or not getting proper medical care. No other industrialized country lets this happen.


Canada's industrialized, right?
 
2012-07-12 02:34:23 AM  

f00f: this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too. the perceived shortcomings of arbitrarily-chosen statistics in canada is a poor way to frame the argument against universal healthcare.

if they canada got these numbers up, such that this particular set of statistics would shine when compared to a free-market system, would that sway anyone's mind? of course it wouldn't. it's just chosen because it makes universal healthcare look bad and would be totally ignored if it didn't.


So are you for vouchers or letting disease run rampant?
Or the rare soul who loves Obamacare?
 
2012-07-12 02:36:21 AM  

ciberido: The "classic Mongolian script" didn't exist before 1204, so what alphabet/script (if any) did Chinggis Khan write his name in before then, I wonder?


Seem like he'd be one of those cursive freaks.
 
2012-07-12 02:37:43 AM  

limboslam: balloot: limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

--------------------

Nobody is claiming that the American system doesn't work great in many cases. The problem is that when it doesn't work, which is relatively often, someone ends up either bankrupt or not getting proper medical care. No other industrialized country lets this happen.

Canada's industrialized, right?


Yup. And nobody goes bankrupt or doesn't get care.
 
2012-07-12 02:42:09 AM  

randomjsa: I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.



theexpiredmeter.com

"Shhhh! We've given someone with an actual, functional brain randomjsa's login and password. Let's see how long it takes anyone to notice."
 
2012-07-12 02:43:29 AM  
My parents threw the stupid farking Canadians-coming-to-the-US-for-healthcare statistic at me a few months ago. Then, a few months later when they realized one of them needed surgery and they had no insurance, they were suddenly looking into having it done in MEXICO where they could afford it.

NOT NEWS: Then they realized that Obamacare made it possible for her to get insured and have the surgery here in the States, which is what they did. FARK: They still hate Obamacare.

It's really farking evil the way these right wing @ssholes are brainwashing people into accepting a system that bankrupts you when you get sick.
 
2012-07-12 02:48:15 AM  
I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.
 
2012-07-12 02:49:32 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Shut up. Not only are you ruining the narrative, we Americans don't give a crap about the actual experiences people actually have. We're all about theory over here.
 
2012-07-12 02:56:15 AM  

ox45tallboy: randomjsa: I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.


[theexpiredmeter.com image 242x300]

"Shhhh! We've given someone with an actual, functional brain randomjsa's login and password. Let's see how long it takes anyone to notice."


Hehe. I think he forgot which login he was posting under.
 
2012-07-12 02:57:04 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: My parents threw the stupid farking Canadians-coming-to-the-US-for-healthcare statistic at me a few months ago. Then, a few months later when they realized one of them needed surgery and they had no insurance, they were suddenly looking into having it done in MEXICO where they could afford it.

NOT NEWS: Then they realized that Obamacare made it possible for her to get insured and have the surgery here in the States, which is what they did. FARK: They still hate Obamacare.

It's really farking evil the way these right wing @ssholes are brainwashing people into accepting a system that bankrupts you when you get sick.


It's harsh, but your parents sound both dumb and subbornly ignorant, in that they know they were wrong but refuse the admit the possibility. I suspect a large portion of the anti-Obamacare sentiment out there is the same, given that the pieces of Obamacare have landslide high poll ratings yet you have to dig to find the ratings of the name "Obamacare." Just don't tell them what it's called and they love it!
 
2012-07-12 02:59:13 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Well, that sounds like what Americans have in the private insurance system, so if nothing else you get to pay a lot less for the same treatment.
 
2012-07-12 03:01:58 AM  

cc_rider: Hehe. I think he forgot which login he was posting under.


Most likely.
 
2012-07-12 03:10:23 AM  
This points to an obvious solution to the high costs of medical care.

Health insurance that includes trips abroad for services at affiliated hospitals.

Imagine how high the colonoscopy checkup rate would be if your in-network provider was in Cozumel and the insurance company comped your tickets. Extend this idea across the board because I'm a little low on knowledge of medical procedures right now.

How about covering nursing homes in Costa Rica? The kids will be more likely to visit and if they don't hey, you're in Costa Rica.

How about sending breast cancer survivors to Brazil for reconstructive breast implants? They're really good at it down there, they even trick out men pretty well.

The list keeps on going. Eventually American hospitals would gang together to get congress to limit liability, and then we might get to where the cost difference is less than a plane ticket. Although we'd probably see high carbon taxes to make international flights impractical before we see one group of lawyers limit the income potential of another group of lawyers.
 
2012-07-12 03:10:35 AM  
I have no friend, acquaintance, or family that's complained of a long wait time. Aside from biatching that you can't walk into a GP's office and immediately see the doc, but those things aren't always easy to schedule.

Then again, I'm not one of the 1%.
 
2012-07-12 03:20:34 AM  

f00f: i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too.

.


Me too.

All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.
 
2012-07-12 03:26:20 AM  

foxyshadis: shower_in_my_socks: My parents threw the stupid farking Canadians-coming-to-the-US-for-healthcare statistic at me a few months ago. Then, a few months later when they realized one of them needed surgery and they had no insurance, they were suddenly looking into having it done in MEXICO where they could afford it.

NOT NEWS: Then they realized that Obamacare made it possible for her to get insured and have the surgery here in the States, which is what they did. FARK: They still hate Obamacare.

It's really farking evil the way these right wing @ssholes are brainwashing people into accepting a system that bankrupts you when you get sick.

It's harsh, but your parents sound both dumb and subbornly ignorant, in that they know they were wrong but refuse the admit the possibility. I suspect a large portion of the anti-Obamacare sentiment out there is the same, given that the pieces of Obamacare have landslide high poll ratings yet you have to dig to find the ratings of the name "Obamacare." Just don't tell them what it's called and they love it!



They're both smart, rational people. But they've been exposed to 60 years of Republican dogma. For many, any hint of socialism is bad simply because "socialism" and "liberal" have been successfully turned into bad words by the right wing fringe.
 
2012-07-12 03:27:34 AM  

You Cant Explain That: All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.


Divorcing people from the negative consequences of their bad choices doesn't actually help them in the long run. Nor anyone else.
 
2012-07-12 03:34:22 AM  
I have medical coverage here in the States but still go to Costa Rica from time to time for dental work. The equipment and dentists seem as good as the high end dentist I go to here. Funny thing is that if I get a crown in the States, it is made at a lab in Costa Rica and shipped here. There are lots of other procedures that can be done in Costa Rica that are insanely expensive in the US. I don't know about the medical clinics but at the dental clinics the waiting room is always filled with Americans. With roundtrip airfare in the $300-$400 range, it doesn't take much of a savings to work it worthwhile.
 
2012-07-12 03:35:15 AM  

untaken_name: You Cant Explain That: All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.

Divorcing people from the negative consequences of their bad choices doesn't actually help them in the long run. Nor anyone else.


Look how stupid you are.
 
2012-07-12 03:35:54 AM  

You Cant Explain That: f00f: i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too.

.

Me too.

All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.


God doesn't seem to give a ripe fig about municipal finances or tax payer-provided infrastructure. In His infinite glory and wisdom, He lets those societal leeches linger waaaaaaay too long. Following His teachings, we need to help ourselves instead of sitting around on our butts all day waiting for His Devine Street Sweeper to tidy things up. We have enough huddled masses spreading tuberculosis. Who's idea was it to invite more? I think He'd be happy if we were a little more bootstrappy and quit bugging Him so much.

img.photobucket.como clean things up.
 
2012-07-12 03:40:04 AM  
Okay, who broke into Randomjusa's account and is posting?

Did someone forget to log onto their alter ego trolling account?
 
2012-07-12 03:40:56 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: untaken_name: You Cant Explain That: All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.

Divorcing people from the negative consequences of their bad choices doesn't actually help them in the long run. Nor anyone else.

Look how stupid you are.


Oh, you wound me. Since you're so much smarter than I am, apparently, why not take a few moments and explain why I'm wrong? Or is that beyond your God-like abilities, Mr. Hawking?
 
2012-07-12 03:50:57 AM  
What's really crazy is that what you pay in the US seems to be totally random. I recently fell at an ice rink and split my head open. While I was passed out, they called an ambulance that took me ten miles to the closest hospital. After entering the ER the first person I saw wasn't a doctor or a nurse, it was a woman from finance department demanding to see my insurance information.

In the weeks that followed, the bills started coming in. Over $8000 from six different companies (apparently everything at the hospital is outsourced to independent companies0. That's over $1000 per stich. But the insurance company negotiated the rate down to around $4000. So without insurance I would have had to pay double... or negotiated with the woman from the finance department over the cost of everything as they provided it. This while bleeding from a head injury.

Even more fun is that the insurance company absolutely refuses to pay $800 ambulance bill since they claim the injury wasn't life threatening. Well, that might be true but I certainly couldn't drive myself seeing that had been knocked out and I doubt a taxi would want a passenger who was bleeding all over the place. Apparently after I came to, I was suppose to walk around the ice arena begging anyone to let me bum a ride. And this isn't even cut rate insurance. It's the best plan offered by one of the most powerful law firms in the country.
 
2012-07-12 03:55:03 AM  
Nonpartisan?

Fraser Institute?

{bwahahahahaha.jpg]

DC FAILs again.

You have to understand how funny this is. If you live in Vancouver like I do and you listen to the radio on a regular basis you will invariably hear at least a couple of scare ads for health insurance covering trips to the US every day. The idea is they tell the tale of a Canadian couple who goes to the States for the weekend to do some shopping or whatever but when a medical emergency happens they end up losing their house because they failed to get extra insurance.

In terms of the numbers of Canadians who access American health care I'll just note that at one point the number of Americans crossing the border and "borrowing" Canadian HC cards became a big enough issue to cause the government to crack down on people doing so.

Plus there's the fact that Medical Tourism is a reality in every industrial nation nowadays including the US.

In 2007, an estimated 750,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical care.

HuffPo had an interesting piece this morning on the current propaganda war going on as regards this issue currently. Basically anecdotal tales from actual Americans who've availed themselves of the Canadian HC system who quite like it.

Link

I'm one of those ridiculously healthy people who've never been seriously ill in their lives but I have many relatives who've needed the system for a variety of complaint both trivial and deadly serious and I for one will attest to the professionalism and competency of the professionals in the Canadian HC industry. I have a sister who developed a very rare form of ovarian cancer in her early 20s back in the 90s and every day she lives she sets a new record for survival rates. So there's that.

Find me a Canadian who wants to swap systems and I'll call him a liar to his face.

Speaking of Fails again...

(RELATED: 83 percent of doctors have considered quitting over Obamacare, survey finds)

*head desk*

[notthisshiatagain]
 
2012-07-12 04:03:19 AM  

ox45tallboy: cc_rider: Hehe. I think he forgot which login he was posting under.

Most likely.


Yeah, I had a real WTF moment there too for a sec.

So... not a real moron he just plays one on the internet?

Damnitsomuch!
 
2012-07-12 04:06:33 AM  
So? In the US people get shuttled around for non-immediate specialty procedures all the time, crossing to a different state isn't unusual. I don't see why it would be different in Canada, particularly, which is a similar distance from a lot of major US population centers.

I'd imagine that certain specialty procedures are referred to Canadian hospitals from the US as well. Again, kinda standard to send people to the place with the best available care within their means if they're not bleeding out in the emergency room or anything.
 
2012-07-12 04:17:18 AM  

quatchi: ox45tallboy: cc_rider: Hehe. I think he forgot which login he was posting under.

Most likely.

Yeah, I had a real WTF moment there too for a sec.

So... not a real moron he just plays one on the internet?

Damnitsomuch!


Dude, no one in reality would keep posting that bullsh*t in the threads after getting shouted down so often. They'd move on to an echo chamber like FreeRepublic or Breitbart or something. It's a troll account.
 
2012-07-12 04:17:21 AM  

randomjsa: I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.


Wha-wha-what the? Who are you, and what did you do with trollbait?
 
2012-07-12 04:32:09 AM  

ox45tallboy: Dude, no one in reality would keep posting that bullsh*t in the threads after getting shouted down so often. They'd move on to an echo chamber like FreeRepublic or Breitbart or something. It's a troll account.


Apparently. Meh, my thing with trolls is if they are repeating current talking points that haven't yet been thoroughly debunked I just use their BS as a springboard for my own counter arguments. They are kind of like the whetstone one uses in cyberspace in order to eviscerate real morons more easily in meatspace. Plus it's an outlet for my natural snark.
 
2012-07-12 04:42:02 AM  
So a small fraction of 1% of Canada - i.e., the people with rare conditions that have to travel to find specialists to treat them, did so. I'd imagine a similar number of U.S. citizens who have the sort of the thing that 3 people know how to treat, none of which live in this country, do the same.

Considering the two countries make no serious attempt to stop people from hopping back and forth, even when they don't have passports, that number would be much, MUCH higher if this was a real issue.
 
2012-07-12 04:58:17 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Emergency rooms EVERYWHERE usually have long waits because too many stupid people go to the emergency room everytime they get the sniffles. They'll process you based on the severity of your symptoms. When I was in my motorcycle accident I got in pretty quickly. The time I thought I'd broken my finger it was a couple hours wait.

Of course there have been times I've been to the emergency room and got treated right away even though I didn't have a serious injury simply because it was a quiet night and they didn't have many patients.

As for wait times to see specialists, it all depends. The surgeon who removed the tumour from my finger was less than seven days to see. The specialist who created my orthodics I got to see the very next day. The guy who performed my vasectomy I got to see in 2 weeks. The doctor who operated on my bladder I got to see in a little less than a month.

None of those cost me a penny.
 
2012-07-12 05:01:20 AM  

AppleOptionEsc: Wha-wha-what the? Who are you, and what did you do with trollbait?


Wife-like-typing detected.
 
2012-07-12 05:07:07 AM  

Ghastly: None of those cost me a penny.


*checks profile*

Canadian? WTF?

SOCIALIST!

Actually, Vermont is looking at a single-payer statewide system. Good, right? Here's the facepalm part:

From the Vermont Health Care For All website FAQ:

Won't we have rationing like Canada?

See, this is why we in the US can't have nice things.
 
2012-07-12 05:16:00 AM  

Rusty Shackleford: The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.


The nonpartisan WE Coyote Institute reports that land-based avian creatures are a menace to society that should be exterminated.
 
2012-07-12 05:31:05 AM  
So 46,159 Canadians got sick on vacation?

/drtfa
 
2012-07-12 05:42:30 AM  
As I was doing a bit of research to rebut an argument from someone that the US has the "best health care system in the world", I did find one interesting thing. In one area, we are the best -- and that is response time. So it would stand to reason that this is the one area highlighted in this study.
 
2012-07-12 06:16:08 AM  
I once mentioned that one-half of all Canadian live withing 100 miles of the US border. One of my Candian co-workers chime in "and the other half of us live within the US border". That 43k is just the reported few crossing the border and asking for reimbursement from their government.
 
2012-07-12 06:25:18 AM  

quatchi: Find me a Canadian who wants to swap systems and I'll call him a liar to his face.


Or he/she reads the Farkin' Toronto Sun.

Seriously, have ever seen that disgusting tabloid? Some of the garbage they print is to the right of teabaggers. Scary that some Canadians actually believe that crap and vote based on their ignorant editorializing. These idiots are why we are stuck with Harper.
 
2012-07-12 06:38:09 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


I live in PEI, so I feel your pain.

A lot of that is a shortage of doctors, though. We lose a boatload of trained professionals to the US, where they can make a lot more money. If we had the right number of staff for the population, this would be less of an issue.

a few quick "here's how things went for me" of treatment:
- male permanent birth control - 1 year wait
- diagnosed kidney tumor - 6 specialist and surgery in a week flat (not me, my uncle)
 
2012-07-12 06:50:34 AM  

CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


if it's so amazing why would anyone want to be rid of it? Sorry, I can't link to the actual text but Fark won't allow WSJ links. It's not like Whole Foods is a haven for the right.
 
2012-07-12 06:51:29 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: quatchi: Find me a Canadian who wants to swap systems and I'll call him a liar to his face.

Or he/she reads the Farkin' Toronto Sun.

Seriously, have ever seen that disgusting tabloid? Some of the garbage they print is to the right of teabaggers. Scary that some Canadians actually believe that crap and vote based on their ignorant editorializing. These idiots are why we are stuck with Harper.


Toronto Sun sucks baboon balls, tis true.

That noted, the really hardcore RW Farkers read the Canadian Free Press which is just slightly to the left of Goebells.

/CFP has been described as "A Canadian version of WND"
//The writing of Judi MacLeod, it's editor, has been described as that of an "emotionally incontinent ninth grader,"
///So, yeah, a natural fit there.
 
2012-07-12 06:56:50 AM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!
 
2012-07-12 07:03:08 AM  
I'f you're going to announce you're nonpartisan before even saying your name, I'm going to assume you're extremely partisan.
 
2012-07-12 07:03:12 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!


According to who? I have Blue Cross through my employer. Covers 80% of dental, $200/yr/person for glasses, and I pay $5 per prescription. Stuff not covered by Health Care.
 
2012-07-12 07:04:02 AM  

balloot: Yup. And nobody goes bankrupt or doesn't get care.


You got cured from cancer and went bankrupt? Wahhh. Of all the first world problems. You're alive, you still have a roof over your head and don't have debt. Sounds terrible.

Being bankrupted for the cure for your diease is the weakest of arugments for health care change. I don't mean we can't do better, because we can, but single payer has so many problems, just like our current system in the US. With so many different healthcare systems around the world it seems we could take the best of all of those and make something better for the future that is the best we can do for everyone. Instead we get a one sided push through that neither side really wanted, but as long as you get enough people to sign off it's "okay."

When Obama said doctors would mistreat people for more $$$ it is as disgusting as a republican saying that universal healthcare is socialistic. The whole debate just shows how everyone in washington should be kicked out. They don't represent us, they represent some odd political goal that doesn't focus on the people but more on winning. You know who else is winning?
 
2012-07-12 07:04:10 AM  
46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.
 
2012-07-12 07:07:41 AM  
Stat is useless without # of USians who sought medical treatment outside the US in 2011 to compare to.
 
2012-07-12 07:10:37 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.

Hey waitafugginminute. zOMG SOOOOOCIALISM! is supposed to mean you can't get private coverage!


the whole point is that you won't need it. If you feel the need for private coverage because the things you need to be healthy aren't covered by your "universal" healthcare then your government is doing it wrong. Sweet Jezus on a lizard with a raygun eating crackers off a turtle! Which is the whole republican argument, we don't have the ability to sustain that level of care in the long term.
 
2012-07-12 07:11:26 AM  
How many were wintering in Florida? Need to go to a walk-in? Do we go to a clinic in town or drive 2000 milles back home?

More we need to know.
 
2012-07-12 07:13:16 AM  

wippit: Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.

I live in PEI, so I feel your pain.

A lot of that is a shortage of doctors, though. We lose a boatload of trained professionals to the US, where they can make a lot more money. If we had the right number of staff for the population, this would be less of an issue.

a few quick "here's how things went for me" of treatment:
- male permanent birth control - 1 year wait
- diagnosed kidney tumor - 6 specialist and surgery in a week flat (not me, my uncle)


A YEAR???

What, PEI won't pay for the procedure in NB or NS?
 
2012-07-12 07:14:56 AM  

randomjsa: I'm going to make a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arse Guess)

I'll say between 5-15k of those were not people escaping the Canadian system but probably people who were sent down here for treatment for some reason or another. That happens.

You can find thousands of Americans that head over seas for medical treatments of one kind or another too.

Does the fact that a fraction of the people in either system opt to use a different system prove something? I don't think so. it's like the people that trundle out horror stories of different health care systems in various countries... Um... there will always be such horror stories no matter what kind of health care system you have from free market to single payer... There will always be mistakes.


Wow. That was remarkably lucid.
 
2012-07-12 07:17:31 AM  
So? Seems like a relatively small number.

I'm just going to keep on saying this, I guess:

My family has our health insurance through the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The Health Connector was amazingly easy to navigate and we found an affordable plan that is cheaper and covers more than the plan we had through my wife's former employer (I'm self-employed). We didn't have to change any doctors or specialists and there was no noticeable increase in wait times. I can see my GP within a week usually. The prescription plan we have now is far superior to what we had previously.

The only big change is that we have to regularly update our income information and fill out a few forms every year.

Because of this, we're finally starting to get our heads above water financially and we no longer have to choose between filling a prescription and buying groceries for the week.
 
2012-07-12 07:18:42 AM  

vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.


how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.
 
2012-07-12 07:21:07 AM  
lol they link to an article that says 83% of doctors consider quitting because of Obamacare... That is just too much bullshiat for me to swallow. Let me go pull some numbers out of my ass and call it a study.
 
2012-07-12 07:23:24 AM  

pedobearapproved: vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.

how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.


I really don't think we should be structuring our health system around Incredibly short sighted people and their ignorant feelings of immortality.
 
2012-07-12 07:35:21 AM  

Bondith: ciberido
timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.

It's funny 'cause you said that to a guy called Timujim.

untaken_name
The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.

The 43 precious-metal-catalysed synthetic steps to turn the raw material into the final product do add a few dollars to the cost. However, that doesn't justify perpetual patents and inflated prices, especially since a lot of the research to figure out those 43 steps happens at publically funded universities.


For most drugs, most development and clinical research is done by companies. The main contribution of academia is identifying targets for drugs.

When labs try to advancs a drug,
a huge problem is lack of reproducibility for any university study using a drug, once a moa has been discovered. Something like 90% of all studies performed at universities on potential drug candidates are not reliable and have to be repeated, because of the pressure to get research funding.
 
2012-07-12 07:50:16 AM  
"In other news, the nonpartisan Arizona tea party patriots have released a study, based on an extensive review of deaths statistics over the past three years, and have confirmed that millions of Americans have died as a result of the Obama Presidency."
 
2012-07-12 07:51:39 AM  
. . . and the time a specialist provides elective treatment

So, it's a 19 week wait for a nose job? Sounds about right.


emphasis mine
 
2012-07-12 07:52:53 AM  

PlatinumDragon: a few quick "here's how things went for me" of treatment:
- male permanent birth control - 1 year wait
- diagnosed kidney tumor - 6 specialist and surgery in a week flat (not me, my uncle)

A YEAR???

What, PEI won't pay for the procedure in NB or NS?


That was in NB. They had a year long wait too. But I didn't know that before I requested it, so I was stuck going there instead. PEI only has 1 urologist.

There's a severe shortage of specialists in all the Maritimes. Ontario and Quebec pay more, so they go there before moving to the US.
 
2012-07-12 07:54:22 AM  
Also, 45,000ish people seems extremely low, especially when you consider that Canada shares one of the longest international borders in the world with the United States, is a country of approximately 35 million people, and is a relatively wealthy, mobile, developed nation.

But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.
 
2012-07-12 07:55:19 AM  

Animatronik: For most drugs, most development and clinical research is done by companies. The main contribution of academia is identifying targets for drugs.


Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

ScienceDaily (Jan. 5, 2008) - A new study by two York University researchers estimates the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spends almost twice as much on promotion as it does on research and development, contrary to the industry's claim.

The researchers' estimate is based on the systematic collection of data directly from the industry and doctors during 2004, which shows the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spent 24.4% of the sales dollar on promotion, versus 13.4% for research and development, as a percentage of US domestic sales of US$235.4 billion
 
2012-07-12 07:57:32 AM  
On the other hand:

Driven by rising health care costs at home, nearly 1 million Californians cross the border each year to seek medical care in Mexico, according a new paper by UCLA researchers and colleagues published today in the journal Medical Care.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/
 
2012-07-12 07:59:06 AM  
Americans suffer from an illusion when we look at stats like this.

And it's a similar illusion when we say we have the "best healthcare in the world" ... that's like saying we have the hottest women ... it's a great thing for those who get to be involved, but pretty much a case of "so what" for everyone else.

It also depends on how you view the term "healthcare".

We have a really crappy system in my opinion. Frankly, I can't shop around, I can't figure out what I want because to me price is a strong leader of my actions. Why is it I can't know how much stuff is going to cost? I can know in equally complex things like Real Estate or Construction, but ooh it's too damn complicated.
 
2012-07-12 07:59:11 AM  

Chummer45: But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.


Confirmation bias confirmed!
 
2012-07-12 07:59:14 AM  
To reiterate: How many Americans were medical tourists because of insanely high costs? I bet it was a helluva lot more than 45k.
 
2012-07-12 08:01:00 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: pedobearapproved: vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.

how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.

I really don't think we should be structuring our health system around Incredibly short sighted people and their ignorant feelings of immortality.


For real. There's the ones who played the odds, predictably won, and now say "OMG, look how much money I saved in my 20s by being uninsured!"

On the other hand, there are kids in their 20s who think the same thing, and get diagnosed with cancer. Guess who ends up paying for the cancer treatment either way?

The argument basically boils down to "When I was 25, I played the lottery, and won the jackpot! Now I'm set for retirement! I have a great idea for fixing social security - why not just allow everyone to buy lottery tickets instead of paying social security taxes? Everyone would be a millionaire!"
 
2012-07-12 08:02:08 AM  
I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.
 
2012-07-12 08:05:38 AM  

farkityfarker: I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.


See this is why socialism is wrong, we defy natural selection with it!

Your friend should have had to pony up the money to prove he was a worthwhile citizen or gone without, lowering his chances of survival!

Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!
 
2012-07-12 08:08:16 AM  
Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.
 
2012-07-12 08:08:52 AM  

Raharu:
Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!


Money. It is the quintessential American delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
 
2012-07-12 08:08:57 AM  

trotsky: To reiterate: How many Americans were medical tourists because of insanely high costs? I bet it was a helluva lot more than 45k.


750,000 back in 2007 according to a PDF link I put up earlier.

Prolly more now.
 
2012-07-12 08:09:03 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


Some of this is, in some provinces, can be totally fixed by implementing better scheduling systems on the software side, and not being complete idiots. Get a referal to a neurologist in Nova Scotia and the first thing he does is says he can't do anything without an MRI. So then you wait for the MRI then have to get re-scheduled for the neurologist. The MRI should have been scheduled by the GP right off the bat for just before you go see the neurologist in the first place. Which is, I believe, what they do in Ontario.
 
2012-07-12 08:10:30 AM  

Chummer45: But otherwise, this article pretty much settles the health care debate. I know that up here in Michigan, all I ever hear Canadians talk about is how much they despise the Canadian health care system and would gladly trade it for the U.S. system.


People from Windsor?

They're delusional. They have to be. They live in Windsor.
 
2012-07-12 08:13:53 AM  
From TFA: "Some of these patients will have been sent out of country by the public health care system due to a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided
in their home jurisdiction," the report concluded.


This happened to my dad in Edmonton. They flew him to Seattle a few years ago for a complicated procedure and PAID FOR EVERYTHING because while the procedurre was available in Edmonton, they didn't have a lot of experience with it (they actually told him that).

They sent an Edmonton doctor with him, who sat in on the procedure to learn a few tricks, and who was my dad's primary contact while in a US hospital.
 
2012-07-12 08:16:17 AM  

Ghastly: Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment.


I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.
 
2012-07-12 08:19:11 AM  
Looking at the actual survey the longest wait time was for "plastic surgery" and it was 21.8 weeks.Oncology on the other hand was 4 weeks. Keep in mind all these are for elective surgery and appointments.

I'd rather wait a few weeks for elective procedures than be bankrupt by unexpected necessary ones.
 
2012-07-12 08:20:19 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.


As far as medicine is concerned I would have to agree.

It's also far more christian and christ-like then most american Christians are comfortable with.
 
2012-07-12 08:21:44 AM  

limboslam: Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


120/month x 12 months = 1440 + "$10 out of pocket" = 1450

No mention of deductible, so either your employer is still picking up you deductible or you paid it in full... since you didn't mention it, i'll let your employer eat the cost of the $5k deductible

avg. cost of GP = $75
avg. cost of spec = $200

cost of visits with no insurance = $275

so you paid a corporation $1450 to cover 2 visits worth $275?

You sir got a hell of a deal! why don't more 'mericans do this? It's SO obvious this is the way to go!
 
2012-07-12 08:22:06 AM  

dittybopper: I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.


Sneaky bastards have been building their forces along the border for years. We've been blind to this menace for far too long.

On a more serious note: how does buying prescription drugs in Canada work if you're a US citizen? I don't live too close to the Great White North, but it might just help to defray the costs of a long motorcycle ride or snowboarding trip to Calgary.
 
2012-07-12 08:23:23 AM  

sno man: How many 'mericans are waiting just now?


You don't wait, you just don't get it, ever.
 
2012-07-12 08:24:09 AM  

CeroX: limboslam: Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

120/month x 12 months = 1440 + "$10 out of pocket" = 1450

No mention of deductible, so either your employer is still picking up you deductible or you paid it in full... since you didn't mention it, i'll let your employer eat the cost of the $5k deductible

avg. cost of GP = $75
avg. cost of spec = $200

cost of visits with no insurance = $275

so you paid a corporation $1450 to cover 2 visits worth $275?

You sir got a hell of a deal! why don't more 'mericans do this? It's SO obvious this is the way to go!


It is even worst if you consider his insurance is employer subsidized and counted towards his compensation package.
 
2012-07-12 08:25:12 AM  

dittybopper: I seem to recall a statistic that something like 75% of all Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That would skew the numbers right there.


It just doesn't matter. Canadians, Brits, Germans, they hop borders to pay docs in other countries so they can spend a little extra coin to get treatment for non-critical ailments quicker. This is well known. It's not a condemnation of either system, it's an example of the differing philosophies that guide each one.

What it ultimately comes down to is a matter of philosophy and ethics. If you think health care should be an auction where care is provided based on the highest bid irrespective of the actual need of the patient, you think the U.S. has a great system. If you think heath care should be doled out based solely on the needs of the patient, you think Canada has it right.

Personally, I think it's basic common sense to say Canada has it right.
 
2012-07-12 08:28:14 AM  

fireclown: On a more serious note: how does buying prescription drugs in Canada work if you're a US citizen? I don't live too close to the Great White North, but it might just help to defray the costs of a long motorcycle ride or snowboarding trip to Calgary.


Just hand in the script and pay the price (+$5-$10 dispensing fee). If you have no drug plan, they still sell it to you. It's not like you need to present ID or anything.
 
2012-07-12 08:29:52 AM  

Raharu: HotWingConspiracy: Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.

As far as medicine is concerned I would have to agree.

It's also far more christian and christ-like then most american Christians are comfortable with.


...And they're not mutually exclusive either. Mixed economies and all that.

I don't understand why many Americans can't grasp that some issues are better addressed with more Socialistic policies and others are better addressed with Capitalistic policies.
 
2012-07-12 08:30:04 AM  

wippit: Stuff not covered by Health Care.


the fark does this sentence even mean
 
2012-07-12 08:31:21 AM  
So 45k Canadians elected to go to another country for HC while ≈30M Americans relied on only the ER if they needed care. Clearly the USA is better.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:06 AM  

Raharu: farkityfarker: I have a Canadian friend who fell off his bike and broke his wrist a couple of years ago. He was unemployed at the time.

Because he's Canadian, it was treated for free. Had he been an American, he'd be about 25K in debt.

See this is why socialism is wrong, we defy natural selection with it!

Your friend should have had to pony up the money to prove he was a worthwhile citizen or gone without, lowering his chances of survival!

Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!


Agreed! This is why I'm going to vote for Romney. He obviously knows how to live right if he was able to amass a quarter billion dollars.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:51 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: My parents threw the stupid farking Canadians-coming-to-the-US-for-healthcare statistic at me a few months ago. Then, a few months later when they realized one of them needed surgery and they had no insurance, they were suddenly looking into having it done in MEXICO where they could afford it.

NOT NEWS: Then they realized that Obamacare made it possible for her to get insured and have the surgery here in the States, which is what they did. FARK: They still hate Obamacare.

It's really farking evil the way these right wing @ssholes are brainwashing people into accepting a system that bankrupts you when you get sick.


My dad will not stop emailing me nutty gold standard anti-socialized anything RON PAUL worshiping type rants. Every once in a while I get sick of it and tell him he's full of sh*t because his only source of income is social security and health care is medicare/VA hospitals.

That shuts him up for about two months.

..............

My healthcare in Toronto experience: UTI. Walk in clinic. 90min and $140 later I'm walking out the door pharmaceuticals in hand. Pretty comparible to 'Merica.
 
2012-07-12 08:35:55 AM  

Jackson Herring: wippit: Stuff not covered by Health Care.

the fark does this sentence even mean


What word are you having trouble with?
 
2012-07-12 08:36:10 AM  

keylock71: Raharu: HotWingConspiracy: Socialism is simply more mature than capitalism.

As far as medicine is concerned I would have to agree.

It's also far more christian and christ-like then most american Christians are comfortable with.

...And they're not mutually exclusive either. Mixed economies and all that.

I don't understand why many Americans can't grasp that some issues are better addressed with more Socialistic policies and others are better addressed with Capitalistic policies.


Because people judge you based on your wallet, clearly if its full of wealth god favors YOU!
 
2012-07-12 08:37:42 AM  
Did they also count how many Americans came to Canada for the life-preserving prescription drugs denied them by the US death panels?
 
2012-07-12 08:38:49 AM  
"A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care;[84] the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).[85]".

Link
 
2012-07-12 08:38:50 AM  

wippit: What word are you having trouble with?


the part where you don't understand the difference between health care and health insurance
 
2012-07-12 08:42:40 AM  

keylock71: I don't understand why many Americans can't grasp that some issues are better addressed with more Socialistic policies and others are better addressed with Capitalistic policies.


Equal parts of media saturation and knuckle-dragging stupidity?

I'm fairly sure if you ask one of the semi-retarded Tea Baggers what socialism actually is they'd stare at you blankly, their cheeks spattered with rib sauce.

We all know that the people who get taken advantage of the most are stupid people. I'm certainly not saying all Americans are dumb, but the dumb Americans seem to be the ones who yell the loudest and get the most air-time.

Someone with a more measured, reasonable approach (say, a Chomsky, Zinn, etc) gets ZERO airtime on US national TV. They need to be spitting mad and angry and outraged to show up on a news show for their lengthy 1 minute 30 second interview.
 
2012-07-12 08:42:59 AM  

sigdiamond2000: Nonpartisan.


Even the Cato Institute calls itself "non-partisan". I think it just means they're cool if you're a conservative Democrat.
 
2012-07-12 08:44:00 AM  

jakomo002: Someone with a more measured, reasonable approach (say, a Chomsky, Zinn, etc) gets ZERO airtime on US national TV. They need to be spitting mad and angry and outraged to show up on a news show for their lengthy 1 minute 30 second interview.


In all fairness, Zinn is pretty quiet these days.
 
2012-07-12 08:44:04 AM  

Raharu:

Because people judge you based on your wallet, clearly if its full of wealth god favors YOU!


Something something camel something eye of needle something something?
 
2012-07-12 08:45:54 AM  

wippit: Raharu:

Because people judge you based on your wallet, clearly if its full of wealth god favors YOU!

Something something camel something eye of needle something something?


This just shows that wealthy people work harder to get in to heaven and thusly have earned it more then the poors.
 
2012-07-12 08:46:21 AM  

keylock71: I don't understand why many Americans can't grasp that some issues are better addressed with more Socialistic policies and others are better addressed with Capitalistic policies.


Because about 20% of Americans get all their "information" from Rupert Murdoch and AM radio stations and most of the other 80% either don't pay any attention at all or don't get nearly as worked up over politics as the "44th Fightin' Rascals" brigade.

The fact is that a small minority of this country has been effectively dictating its direction now for the last 12 years. Partly it's because the republicans and their media/corporate friends have done a truly impressive job of consolidating and controlling their message distribution channels and superficially masking them as legitimate news outlets, but mostly it's because a huge majority in this country just does not give a fark and just goes along blindly with whatever hair-brained garbage is currently the hot thing.

The Tea Party is a perfect example. They're loud, obnoxious, massively ignorant of even basic history or economic principles, racist, sexist, incredibly classist and even a very cursory examination of their ideas easily leads to the obvious conclusion that if they actually got what they wanted it would be wildly catastrophic for the vast majority of Americans.

But they were the neat new thing back in 2009/2010, so they garnered enough of a combination between support and apathy that they got a foothold in government and, well, here we are today. If people had actually paid any attention and put any thought in to what they were actually saying before their politicians started winning there would have been a crushing waves of anti-tea-party votes. But that just wasn't going to happen. Being even slightly informed requires a basic level of effort.

I mostly blame swing voters for all this. I'm convinced they are some of the dumbest people on the planet. At this point there is such an enormous dichotomy between the democrats and republicans that if you're going to vote for one or the other but haven't decided which one yet, the only reason is because you have no idea what the hell has been going on and you have no interest in finding out. Saying you're undecided on picking between democrats and republicans at this point is like saying you're having a hard time picking between a family sedan and a bulldozer as your commuter car. They're such wildly different things that it just makes no sense at all.

/ that got off on kind of a tangent, didn't it?
 
2012-07-12 08:47:58 AM  

Jackson Herring: wippit: What word are you having trouble with?

the part where you don't understand the difference between health care and health insurance


Health Care - The socialized medicine in Canada which covers doctor visits, MRIs, x-rays, surgery, etc.

Not "covered" under free Health Care - dental, vision, semi-private and private hospital rooms, ambulance fees, and drugs.
 
2012-07-12 08:53:18 AM  

Carth: CeroX: limboslam: Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.

120/month x 12 months = 1440 + "$10 out of pocket" = 1450

No mention of deductible, so either your employer is still picking up you deductible or you paid it in full... since you didn't mention it, i'll let your employer eat the cost of the $5k deductible

avg. cost of GP = $75
avg. cost of spec = $200

cost of visits with no insurance = $275

so you paid a corporation $1450 to cover 2 visits worth $275?

You sir got a hell of a deal! why don't more 'mericans do this? It's SO obvious this is the way to go!

It is even worst if you consider his insurance is employer subsidized and counted towards his compensation package.


woops, after looking at it, my math is a little off...

let me redo it before i get lynched

he paid 1440 to the corporation to cover 2 visits that WOULD cost only $275, but they elected to only cover $255 ($10 copay per visit presumably)

so instead of paying 1450 to the corp to cover 275 worth of visits, he paid 1440 for them to cover only 255 of 275 worth of visits, and he still gets to pay 10 per visit "out of pocket"...

EVEN BETTER
 
2012-07-12 08:53:22 AM  

Vegetable Medley: In all fairness, Zinn is pretty quiet these days.


Er, true dat. Noam ain't looking so hot himself (what is he, 90?).

wippit: Not "covered" under free Health Care - dental, vision, semi-private and private hospital rooms, ambulance fees, and drugs.


And most people get dental coverage (partial) from their workplace insurance policy.
 
2012-07-12 08:56:47 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: unlikely: So then this is a different Fraser institute than the Conservative Right-Libertarian Fraser Institute?

And did they ever find out what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs??


No no, you're thinking of the Frasier Institute of Seattle . The Fraser institute is a think-tank on how to weaponize Brendan Fraser's horrible acting. Dudley Do-Right was their first full-scale weapons test.
 
2012-07-12 08:59:46 AM  

jakomo002: And most people get dental coverage (partial) from their workplace insurance policy.


Should point out that dental IS covered (either 80% or all) for under-18. It's just adults who have to pay.
 
2012-07-12 09:00:49 AM  
Welcome to Obama's Canada.
 
2012-07-12 09:03:24 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Welcome to Obama's Canada.


G'day, eh? Have some beer and poutine, the Habs are facing the Leafs tonight. That's what it's all aboot, eh?
 
2012-07-12 09:09:24 AM  
I guess this is just part of the systematic attack on Canada's social contract. Let's get all the renters to buy condos so that money is transferred in larger amounts to the already rich, and transfer the risk of the mortgage to the little people. Next up, private health care. Yay!
 
2012-07-12 09:10:10 AM  

wippit: Should point out that dental IS covered (either 80% or all) for under-18. It's just adults who have to pay.


Yeah, I forgot about that. And dental coverage for kids is a GODSEND to any of us that have had to fix our kid's teeth.

When I was a kid, I had everything. A retainer, a bionator (for overbite), and even one of those headgear things that I had to wear at night. And only my dad worked, my mom was a housewife.

Without that kind of dental coverage, it would have cost them so much money to get all that stuff, that my teeth would look British.

/two sisters who also had some dental done
 
2012-07-12 09:16:08 AM  
Only Liberals are partisan. You can't call Conservatives "partisan" because a Conservative's only bias is toward The Truth™. Their heads are uncluttered by Libfacts™, which makes them totally objective. Why do you think they're called Objectivists?
 
2012-07-12 09:16:54 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: I guess this is just part of the systematic attack on Canada's social contract.


But it won't work. Too many people are up in arms at what they see. Even in Alberta.

I'd say, as a breakdown, more than half of all Canadians are quasi-socialists. Meaning that they believe the government should protect the weakest and most helpless segments of society.

And less than 5% are hardcore US-style Republicans. Eventually Harper will be ousted if he keeps up with his anti-environmental, pro-corporate platform. He will not last till the next election.

I'd say we have America to thank for our outlook, too. We constantly see so much absolute foolishness perpetuated by U.S. politicians that when Canada enacts a policy that seems very "American-style", most Canadians get pale and shaky.

America is like our constant reminder of how easy it is for the public to be marginalized, so you get far more Canadians who will actually take to the streets on protest over something they don't like. Even scientists for God's sake.
 
2012-07-12 09:19:16 AM  

cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?


That.

Plus, I know at least one was a friend of mine who was visiting and busted his ankle up really bad on a mountain bike trip.

Be biatched about the hospital visit and pathetic care the remainder of his trip.

/CPSB
//Cool Partison Story Bro
 
2012-07-12 09:32:33 AM  

pedobearapproved: how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.


The problem with everyone using this strategy is once you get sick or reach old farthood and you decide to get comprehensive insurance it would be unreasonably expensive because the only people getting comprehensive coverage are sick or old farts. The whole point of insurance is to spread the risk around so its affordable to any individual.
 
2012-07-12 09:34:22 AM  

cc_rider: cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?

Or Canadians who are working abroad.


or Canadians on vacation who stop off at the ship's doctor for an aspirin, or at the resort's clinic for something to handle the explosive diarrhea they picked up down at the local taco stand...
 
2012-07-12 09:39:31 AM  

wippit: Raharu:
Here in America, we weed out our fiscally weak, so that only the fiscally strong may survive in the long run, as god intended!

Money. It is the quintessential American delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.


Exactly the reason why Jesus was a banker!
 
2012-07-12 09:39:56 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: I mostly blame swing voters for all this. I'm convinced they are some of the dumbest people on the planet. At this point there is such an enormous dichotomy between the democrats and republicans that if you're going to vote for one or the other but haven't decided which one yet, the only reason is because you have no idea what the hell has been going on and you have no interest in finding out. Saying you're undecided on picking between democrats and republicans at this point is like saying you're having a hard time picking between a family sedan and a bulldozer as your commuter car. They're such wildly different things that it just makes no sense at all.

/ that got off on kind of a tangent, didn't it?


The Daily Show said it nicely in their "Stupid Vote" segment back in 2008. One of my all time favourite clips.

i49.tinypic.com

Link
 
2012-07-12 09:42:38 AM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: The problem with everyone using this strategy is once you get sick or reach old farthood and you decide to get comprehensive insurance it would be unreasonably expensive because the only people getting comprehensive coverage are sick or old farts. The whole point of insurance is to spread the risk around so its affordable to any individual.


Which is the part of the individual mandate that makes sense: everyone is in all the time (or close to it). I still think that the easiest (and most legal) way to do it is a medicare expansion with corresponding tax increase. Yeah. That's right. A right winger just said tax increase. The government could then give you a menu of medical plans, for which it would pay premiums (with your own money). Employers could use additional medical insurance supplements as benefits to entice qualified workers. If I am understanding things rightly, that is more or less the German system.
 
2012-07-12 09:43:19 AM  

untaken_name: A Dark Evil Omen: untaken_name: You Cant Explain That: All poor people should just suffer and/or die when God decides its their time to do so.

Divorcing people from the negative consequences of their bad choices doesn't actually help them in the long run. Nor anyone else.

Look how stupid you are.

Oh, you wound me. Since you're so much smarter than I am, apparently, why not take a few moments and explain why I'm wrong? Or is that beyond your God-like abilities, Mr. Hawking?


You are wrong in that you are implying that decision-making is a strong determinant of an individual's ability to pay for medical care.
The notion that middle class and poor people are not rich because they are not smart/hard-working may feel truthy but is not supported by the evidence. External factors beyond the control of any individual keep poor communities poor. Certainly there are exceptional individuals but by and large the socio-economic group into which you are born is a much stronger determinant of your ability pay for expensive medical treatment than is your work-ethic and decision-making ability.
 
2012-07-12 09:48:08 AM  
I can't believe nobody posted this chart yet.

theincidentaleconomist.com
 
2012-07-12 09:50:55 AM  

Serious Black: I can't believe nobody posted this chart yet.

[theincidentaleconomist.com image 500x387]


Proof the Canadian system is broken. If you don't have a 100% solution you're socialist policies have failed!
 
2012-07-12 09:53:18 AM  

Raharu: Because people judge you based on your wallet, clearly if its full of wealth god favors YOU!


Well, there's that, too...

It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. - John Steinbeck
 
2012-07-12 09:56:08 AM  

keylock71: It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. - John Steinbeck


I was forced to read The Pearl in high school and didn't like it. That quote just made up for forcing my grade 9 self through that.
 
2012-07-12 09:56:43 AM  

jakomo002: We all know that the people who get taken advantage of the most are stupid people. I'm certainly not saying all Americans are dumb, but the dumb Americans seem to be the ones who yell the loudest and get the most air-time.


Not a new phenomenon in America by any means, but it is much easier to disseminate to the general public these days.

If it bleeds, it leads.
 
2012-07-12 09:59:04 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Saying you're undecided on picking between democrats and republicans at this point is like saying you're having a hard time picking between a family sedan and a bulldozer as your commuter car. They're such wildly different things that it just makes no sense at all.

/ that got off on kind of a tangent, didn't it?


Agreed... Anyone who still says Democrats and Republicans are the same, is either lying or hasn't been paying attention for the last few years.

No worries, I like rants.
 
2012-07-12 10:03:09 AM  

Mercutio74: keylock71: It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. - John Steinbeck

I was forced to read The Pearl in high school and didn't like it. That quote just made up for forcing my grade 9 self through that.


Have you read "The Grapes of Wrath"? Excellent book and the themes still resonate in today's America.
 
2012-07-12 10:04:54 AM  

keylock71: Have you read "The Grapes of Wrath"? Excellent book and the themes still resonate in today's America.


I haven't, but I very well might now.
 
2012-07-12 10:10:11 AM  

pedobearapproved: vernonFL: 46,159 ?

That is less than the number of people in my COUNTY that don't have any health insurance at all.

In my state, there are over 700,000 people under 65 without health insurance.

how many of those are under 35? I didn't have real health insurance in my 20s (well, two years with a job that provided it). I had the "if your arm falls off from cancer during a car wreck you're covered" but for normal everyday dr visits I was on my own. Guess what. I spent around $200 a year on my health care (not counting the major arm falling off policy). Try and buy any health insurance for under that. People under 40 are generally healthy, many see health insurance as not a thing that's needed until you get to a place where it can help. If you asked me then if I'd rather spend $100 a month on insurance that makes my $30 drugs $5 or my future house I can tell you which.


And if you got in a nasty car accident like my ex did, the goddamn taxpayer or hospital would probably be on the hook for the bills. Because you're *invisible*, right?

And I don't know if you've bothered to look lately, but I take all of two medications. One the insurance won't cover (guess), the other is between $60 and $100 without insurance. With, $10. So yeah, that covers the $85 I pay in per month with my employer. And this is for a medication that has been available as a generic for years upon years.
 
2012-07-12 10:15:10 AM  

Mercutio74: keylock71: Have you read "The Grapes of Wrath"? Excellent book and the themes still resonate in today's America.

I haven't, but I very well might now.


You won't regret it. Beautiful prose. Well-written. Compelling characters and story. ...And the last chapter just leaves you feeling like you just got smacked in the head with a 2x4.
 
2012-07-12 10:18:43 AM  
Yes, I know, some of you are shocked at that response of mine.

I honestly believe that a free market system produces better results. I used to be one of the people who would hold out examples of people who received poor quality care under a government run system but then you realize that people who support such a system can hold out examples of people who received poor quality care under a free market system.

Then you just have to accept it, no matter what system you're using it's taking care of most of the people fairly well most of the time.

There are plenty of legitimate statistics you can use to support the system you think is best.

By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.
 
2012-07-12 10:22:06 AM  

randomjsa: By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.


Uh, what?
 
2012-07-12 10:23:49 AM  

randomjsa: Yes, I know, some of you are shocked at that response of mine.

I honestly believe that a free market system produces better results. I used to be one of the people who would hold out examples of people who received poor quality care under a government run system but then you realize that people who support such a system can hold out examples of people who received poor quality care under a free market system.

Then you just have to accept it, no matter what system you're using it's taking care of most of the people fairly well most of the time.

There are plenty of legitimate statistics you can use to support the system you think is best.

By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.


How about cost of care then? The US spends about 16% of GDP, Canada around 10% and the UK around 8% for roughtly comparable results. Unlike anecdotes, those are cold hard numbers that you can't waffle your way out of.
 
2012-07-12 10:23:56 AM  

randomjsa: By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.


How are they bogus
 
2012-07-12 10:24:33 AM  

jakomo002: randomjsa: By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.

Uh, what?


He means Libfacts.
 
2012-07-12 10:25:26 AM  

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


I used my employer provided insurance to see an orthopedic doctor to rule out a cartilage tear in my knee. Thanks to the deductible, I limped out of his office owing $600.

Of course, I didn't know how much I owed for 2 months. Even though I have to sign a piece a paper promising to pay them anything insurance doesn't cover, they absolutely can't quote me a price. What other industry can get away with the answer "we don't know how much you'll be charged. It depends on your insurance plan, negotiated rates, the alignment of planets, etc".

Or how about how when I was laid off two years ago, the cost to pay for CBRA insurance coverage would have been 66% of my unemployment benefits. So I was forced to risk life without comprehensive health insurance for 2 months. I got a much cheaper per diem coverage plan that didn't "officially" count as health insurance. So when I started my new job, any new illness in my first 6 months would have been considered pre-existing.

But, you know, our healthcare system is the the best in the world. USA, USA, USA
 
2012-07-12 10:27:25 AM  

randomjsa: I honestly believe that a free market system produces better results.


So how do you reconcile the fact that supply and demand breaks down in a healthcare market?
 
2012-07-12 10:28:08 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: hey're such wildly different things that it just makes no sense at all.


I don't necessarily agree with this statement...

I don't see swing voters being dumb, since i may be considered a "swing voter" myself. I vote on issues and people i research, so i don't just vote a party line. This makes for mistakes to be made (see GW circa 2000) but i also get to learn from those mistakes and vote differently next time around.

I think the problem isn't stupidity, but laziness...

Americans are given this great gift, the gift to forge the future of our government and how that government will operate for the next x number of years. We get to determine this on every level of government, from our local mayor, to the leader of the country. In the early days, this was seen as a GREAT opportunity and everyone involved made voting a huge deal... but we got complacent...

It's now taken for granted that WE, the PEOPLE get to forge our own futures and the right to vote isn't seen as this great honor anymore. Complacency has taken hold and the only time the majority of people vote is when they feel passionate about the person or issue they are voting for...

Obama's election is a great example of passion overriding complacency. When polled most unregistered black voters said they don't vote because they don't think they are represented correctly, or that their vote doesn't matter. But 2008 changed that, suddenly there was black man up for president and black voter registration reached record height. Black voter turn out also broke records. You can youtube video of some of the voter rallies in 2008 and see the passion the black community had. Complacency was overcome by passion.

This is the typical mindset of most Americans... I haven't seen the mass reports of black voting rallies or the drive to get new black registered voters this year, and i haven't seen any reports about the registration numbers among blacks and minorities either. Either the black community has gone back to complacency, or the media is electing to not cover that information.

But what i AM seeing being covered is the now passionate white voter turn out. I'm seeing more "take back america" campaign signs, stickers and ads. i'm seeing a LOT of campaigning from the white right to other whites who don't show the same passion trying convince them to vote against obama this year. I'm seeing this first hand in my own office, from management no less.

The people with the most passion are the ones who usually get airtime and things like that, but i believe, in all reality, that there are too many american voters who just don't care.

You hear this all the time "the lesser of two evils". This paradigm is what causes many registered voters to just not show up to polls. I have friends who registered to vote in high school because we earned extra credit in history class if we did, and NEVER ONCE VOTED. When i ask them why? They don't care. Once in a while they will biatch and complain about the gov't, and that's the opportunity i get to throw it in their face that they have been a registered voter for almost 20 years and not ONCE stepped in a booth. They are all registered under the same address as their parents and some don't even live in this state anymore...

Why do you think a more liberal leaning black president was elected one year, but the house of reps went primarily conservative the following? Because while the black community got boiling with passion for the president, they went right back to complacency when it came to any follow up elections. Who were the passionate voters come mid term? the white right. they knew they could cripple the obama administration if they just get a majority in the house... passion beat complacency once again...

This country is full of lazy, complacent people who only act when passion moves them.

They are lazy in that they rarely do any real research on an issue, they let political pundits, biased analyzers, and "news" organizations do their thinking for them. They read chain emails full of half truths with sources linked to obviously misleading websites and they buy into it. Because it's easier to call yourself a conservative or a liberal, a republican or a democrat, and just do what they tell you to do than to THINK for yourself, to READ the actual bills that stir up so much crap, to RESEARCH a person's voting history and see if they are now blowing smoke up your ass or not.

But they don't, they would rather listen to someone else talk and see if what that person says will give them enough passion to get off their ass and move.

This is why the conservative pundits act the way they do, they KNOW that their listeners would fall into apathy and complacency if they don't impassion or inflame them into action. They are VERY good at that, something the left pundits haven't figured out yet. The left looks down at this tactic, trying to take the high road, but the high road doesn't motivate people to get off their ass and vote. One thing you can say about the right is they are a very motivated set of people, because their leaders are always stirring up the pot, causing controversy and generally rousing the rabble. It's what they do, and they excel at it, and it works, i just wish they weren't so damned evil. They could really make a positive difference in this world if they would stop speaking on behalf of corporations and religion, the 2 biggest enemies of peace.

In conclusion, the stupidity comes from those who DO toe a line, those that brand themselves liberal/conservative/democrat/republican because those people don't have to think, they just fall in line...

I am from the camp that says DON'T fall in line, judge based on action, and individual merit, not on what some jackboot on AM radio speaking passionately into the microphone is telling you, or what some gold trimmed preacher behind a podium is telling you...

Figure it out yourself and act accordingly...
 
2012-07-12 10:28:38 AM  

Mrtraveler01: randomjsa: By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.

How are they bogus


Because the US doesn't show up at the top of the list in either category...
 
2012-07-12 10:28:57 AM  

Mrtraveler01: randomjsa: By the way? Life expectancy and infant mortality rate are bogus statistics that people keep using over and over and over and over again.

How are they bogus


Clearly because its gods will who lives and who dies! Therefor even with the best healthcare, god already has you planned to die on X day. There for life expectancy and infant mortality are just Libfacts.
 
2012-07-12 10:29:47 AM  

sno man: The Fraser Institute is non partisan ish. The Daily Caller, not even so much. Slanted story has slippery sides.
19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist...what for water on the knee?
less that 3% of Canadians waiting for treatment any any given time... How many 'mericans are waiting just now?
AND how many more aren't even eligible for treatment?
46k Canadians have coin extra enough to blow to jump the queue and take a few days or maybe a couple of weeks off their treatment for SOMETHING NON LIFE THREATENING. Good for them, good for the American docs treating these assholes, every body wins, but it looks bad in the press. DC, FU. KTHXBI


Yep. Last November, my old man went to see his doc for dizziness and minor chest pain. She performed a stress test which came back normal, but wanted to be sure so she sent him to a heart specialist. Within a week he'd had an angiogram, whereupon they told him he wouldn't be going home that night. He had bypass surgery the next day. All of this happened in Toronto, and none of it cost him a penny.
 
2012-07-12 10:32:43 AM  

jakomo002: wippit: Should point out that dental IS covered (either 80% or all) for under-18. It's just adults who have to pay.

Yeah, I forgot about that. And dental coverage for kids is a GODSEND to any of us that have had to fix our kid's teeth.

When I was a kid, I had everything. A retainer, a bionator (for overbite), and even one of those headgear things that I had to wear at night. And only my dad worked, my mom was a housewife.

Without that kind of dental coverage, it would have cost them so much money to get all that stuff, that my teeth would look British.

/two sisters who also had some dental done


How do you slrep at night you filthy SOCIALSATANIST!
 
2012-07-12 10:39:59 AM  

randomjsa: I honestly believe that a free market system produces better results.


So a health insurer's profit motive does not conflict with a policy holder's need for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of recurring care?
 
2012-07-12 10:59:23 AM  

Drexl's Eye: Yep. Last November, my old man went to see his doc for dizziness and minor chest pain. She performed a stress test which came back normal, but wanted to be sure so she sent him to a heart specialist. Within a week he'd had an angiogram, whereupon they told him he wouldn't be going home that night. He had bypass surgery the next day. All of this happened in Toronto, and none of it cost him a penny.


Yup. My nephew a couple of years ago woke up dizzy, with a splitting headache, and missing some vision. He was rushed by ambulance to Sick Kids in Toronto. Had an immediate MRI, was diagnosed with a malformation of blood vessels in his brain (which had bled, but stopped on their own). He was in ICU for a week or so, and they scheduled him for follow up (they didn't want to risk an operation until they were sure the area in his melon was stabilized).and scheduled his first brain surgery a few weeks later. He's had another since (since he's still growing, the malformation potentially comes back every few years) but all's going well. The total cost to the parents? Whatever they pay in taxes plus $40 for the original ambulance ride.
 
2012-07-12 11:01:56 AM  

Drexl's Eye: sno man: The Fraser Institute is non partisan ish. The Daily Caller, not even so much. Slanted story has slippery sides.
19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist...what for water on the knee?
less that 3% of Canadians waiting for treatment any any given time... How many 'mericans are waiting just now?
AND how many more aren't even eligible for treatment?
46k Canadians have coin extra enough to blow to jump the queue and take a few days or maybe a couple of weeks off their treatment for SOMETHING NON LIFE THREATENING. Good for them, good for the American docs treating these assholes, every body wins, but it looks bad in the press. DC, FU. KTHXBI

Yep. Last November, my old man went to see his doc for dizziness and minor chest pain. She performed a stress test which came back normal, but wanted to be sure so she sent him to a heart specialist. Within a week he'd had an angiogram, whereupon they told him he wouldn't be going home that night. He had bypass surgery the next day. All of this happened in Toronto, and none of it cost him a penny.


This needs to be repeated - often. The system is far from perfect, but if it's life threatening you get treatment ASAP. I had a pain in my calf, mentioned it to my doctor during a routine physical and she sent me to the hospital for an ultrasound. Turned out to be a massive blood clot. Was put on medication and sent on my way. Total elapsed time - 6 hours (including travel time between her office and hospital).

Two days later, having trouble breathing - see my doctor and she sends me back to the hospital. I walk into radiology and they're waiting for me. No shiat, when I told them my name, they pulled a post-it note off the desk and whisked me right in. I had a CT scan immediately - hundreds of micro clots in my lungs. Total elapsed time - 4 hours.

Oh, as a side note, fark the Fraser Institute. Calling them nonpartisan is like calling Ezra Levant a journalist.
 
2012-07-12 11:09:51 AM  

Mercutio74: Yup. My nephew a couple of years ago woke up dizzy, with a splitting headache, and missing some vision. He was rushed by ambulance to Sick Kids in Toronto. Had an immediate MRI, was diagnosed with a malformation of blood vessels in his brain (which had bled, but stopped on their own). He was in ICU for a week or so, and they scheduled him for follow up (they didn't want to risk an operation until they were sure the area in his melon was stabilized).and scheduled his first brain surgery a few weeks later. He's had another since (since he's still growing, the malformation potentially comes back every few years) but all's going well. The total cost to the parents? Whatever they pay in taxes plus $40 for the original ambulance ride.


Sick Kids is awesome. A buddy of mine is a nurse there. I can't imagine the emotional toll of being around kids with various cancers all the time, but he's a happy guy, loves his work.
 
2012-07-12 11:11:21 AM  

Glenford: Oh, as a side note, fark the Fraser Institute. Calling them nonpartisan is like calling Ezra Levant a journalist


This is key. The Fraser Institute is essentially the Canadian Cato Institute.
 
2012-07-12 11:15:26 AM  

Drexl's Eye: Sick Kids is awesome. A buddy of mine is a nurse there. I can't imagine the emotional toll of being around kids with various cancers all the time, but he's a happy guy, loves his work.


Farking eh, man. My daughter was sent there after she was born to get an echo of her heart to make sure her tachycardia was electrical in origin and not structural (she's perfectly healthy today). Wonderful facility, great doctors and likely the best nurses on the whole planet. Tell your buddy thanks from me. He's part of an unreasonably talented and compassionate team.
 
2012-07-12 11:18:48 AM  

Mercutio74: Glenford: Oh, as a side note, fark the Fraser Institute. Calling them nonpartisan is like calling Ezra Levant a journalist

This is key. The Fraser Institute is essentially the Canadian Cato Institute.


It must be very popular, I'm sure people love hearing that they should embrace capatilistic healthcare, and start paying thousands out of pocket, and go into debt over a broken leg or the kid needing braces.
 
2012-07-12 11:21:47 AM  

Raharu: It must be very popular, I'm sure people love hearing that they should embrace capatilistic healthcare, and start paying thousands out of pocket, and go into debt over a broken leg or the kid needing braces.


My personal belief is that it was founded to make money from Canadian News organizations. Before Fraser, if CBC or CTV wanted to have a discussion they'd only be able to get people with logical and factual points to make. Fraser filled the gap where you're a segment producer and you realize you need a disingenuous inflammatory nutjob on the panel.
 
2012-07-12 11:33:39 AM  

pedobearapproved: balloot: Yup. And nobody goes bankrupt or doesn't get care.

You got cured from cancer and went bankrupt? Wahhh. Of all the first world problems. You're alive, you still have a roof over your head and don't have debt. Sounds terrible.


WTF. This is seriously the new Republican line of reasoning?
 
2012-07-12 11:39:33 AM  
So, in summary,:

An insignificant amount of Canadians (1% who sought medical care) sought treatment in the US.
There was no reason given, but a large portion were because they were the closest major facility was in the US (which works both ways). Therefore Canadians hate their health care system and it is a complete and utter failure. And despite being cheaper and having better results than the US system, we should go to a US model.

Good article.

Also, non-partisan doesn't mean anything more than they aren't affiliated with a party, not that they are acting objectively and without an agenda.

The Canadian model ("Canadian System" is misleading in and of itself because it is different in every province, under the same guidelines) is far from perfect, and I would say it is behind those of Europe and should NOT (on its own) be used as a model to create a new system. It is old and needs to be updated, but if anyone suggested real reform they would be thrown out of office in an instant by people not willing to risk what we do have. The US should look around the world and find the best aspects of each system to move forward and develop the best one possible.
 
2012-07-12 11:40:45 AM  

balloot: pedobearapproved: balloot: Yup. And nobody goes bankrupt or doesn't get care.

You got cured from cancer and went bankrupt? Wahhh. Of all the first world problems. You're alive, you still have a roof over your head and don't have debt. Sounds terrible.

WTF. This is seriously the new Republican line of reasoning?


The best part is it ignores the reality that while some people merely go bankrupt and end up healthy, most people with medical bankruptcies end up without a job and still sick.

Get sick, lose job, lose employer related health coverage... woohooo! Guess they should have shopped around better when picking an insurance company through the free market eh?
 
2012-07-12 12:11:14 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Nonpartisan.


Tucker Carlson, owner of The Daily Caller refers to himself as 'The most non-partisan guy I know' and a few days ago referred to a source that said that 85% of all doctors were considering quitting as non-partisan, even though both founders of the source organization are active Tea Partiers.

NON-PARTISAN!
 
2012-07-12 12:13:37 PM  

coco ebert: I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.


You mean like Sweden with their forced sterilizations and eugenics? Wait, we tried that already. It's called Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood. Maybe we could try free health care, like Belgium where "free" means (a) crushing taxation and (b) no ability to defend their own nation and (c) rampant drug use.

Hmm. I'm going about this all wrong. Not making my case. England where the wait is so long for a dentist people have resorted to pulling their own teeth. Dammit, try again ... uh ... yes, yes! Cuban healthcare! No wait, that's a bad one. Australia, where the ambulance system is obliged to respond to all calls, of course being overwhelmed with evefy kind of call but the real calls for help. Dagnabbit ... there's got to be at least one we can learn from ... Japan? Hmmm, no.

Germany? Hey, maybe yes! But then, it's Germany. The nations of the world keep a pretty close eye on what germans are spending on.

Here's the rub ...

Democrats of 1861 - "I got a right to force people to work my fields!"

Democrats of 2012 - "I got a right to force people to pay for my healthcare!"

Seriously
 
2012-07-12 12:23:28 PM  

Clemkadidlefark:

Democrats of 2012 - "I got a right to force people to pay for my healthcare!"


Hey cool! What kind of gun is being held to your head?
 
2012-07-12 12:25:25 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: coco ebert: I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.

You mean like Sweden with their forced sterilizations and eugenics? Wait, we tried that already. It's called Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood. Maybe we could try free health care, like Belgium where "free" means (a) crushing taxation and (b) no ability to defend their own nation and (c) rampant drug use.

Hmm. I'm going about this all wrong. Not making my case. England where the wait is so long for a dentist people have resorted to pulling their own teeth. Dammit, try again ... uh ... yes, yes! Cuban healthcare! No wait, that's a bad one. Australia, where the ambulance system is obliged to respond to all calls, of course being overwhelmed with evefy kind of call but the real calls for help. Dagnabbit ... there's got to be at least one we can learn from ... Japan? Hmmm, no.

Germany? Hey, maybe yes! But then, it's Germany. The nations of the world keep a pretty close eye on what germans are spending on.

Here's the rub ...

Democrats of 1861 - "I got a right to force people to work my fields!"

Democrats of 2012 - "I got a right to force people to pay for my healthcare!"

Seriously


Sweetie, you keep thinking that health care sucks in countries like Sweden, Germany, Australia, and the UK. Really, keep thinking that.
 
2012-07-12 12:33:41 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: coco ebert: I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.

You mean like Sweden with their forced sterilizations and eugenics? Wait, we tried that already. It's called Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood. Maybe we could try free health care, like Belgium where "free" means (a) crushing taxation and (b) no ability to defend their own nation and (c) rampant drug use.

Hmm. I'm going about this all wrong. Not making my case. England where the wait is so long for a dentist people have resorted to pulling their own teeth. Dammit, try again ... uh ... yes, yes! Cuban healthcare! No wait, that's a bad one. Australia, where the ambulance system is obliged to respond to all calls, of course being overwhelmed with evefy kind of call but the real calls for help. Dagnabbit ... there's got to be at least one we can learn from ... Japan? Hmmm, no.

Germany? Hey, maybe yes! But then, it's Germany. The nations of the world keep a pretty close eye on what germans are spending on.

Here's the rub ...

Democrats of 1861 - "I got a right to force people to work my fields!"

Democrats of 2012 - "I got a right to force people to pay for my healthcare!"

Seriously


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-07-12 12:37:20 PM  
It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay for insurance!
It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay the parking meter downtown!
 
2012-07-12 12:38:07 PM  

wippit: It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay for insurance!
It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay the parking meter downtown!


Oh, that's a great analogy. There's no arguing with that logic.
 
2012-07-12 12:43:10 PM  

jigger: wippit: It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay for insurance!
It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay the parking meter downtown!

Oh, that's a great analogy. There's no arguing with that logic.


Meh. I don't even understand the problem. I'm Canadian.
 
2012-07-12 01:09:10 PM  
The U.S. has the best doctors and hospitals, therefore the system works. It has nothing to do with our vast population, wealth, and technology. Nope.
 
2012-07-12 01:10:49 PM  
People don't realize that their greatest asset isn't their house, their stocks, or their savings, but their health.
 
2012-07-12 01:11:48 PM  

wippit: It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay for insurance!
It's not right that I have to pay a fine if I don't pay the parking meter downtown!


Actually, it's worse. The federal government has been putting a gun to the head of taxpayers to fund these louses who end up in the E.R., Obamacare is a step towards correcting the huge deficit in personal responsibility.
 
2012-07-12 01:13:59 PM  
The biggest problem with the Canadian system is that we live next to the US. Your system is such a clusterfark of suck that any discussion of changes immediately gets struck down.

\and the doctors "unions" are a bit to strong
\\and Canada doesn't approve new drugs fast enough
 
2012-07-12 01:15:06 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: England where the wait is so long for a dentist people have resorted to pulling their own teeth. Dammit, try again


What are the wait times?

How many documented cases of people pulling their own teeth because they couldn't wait?

Would they be better off with no coverage at all?
 
2012-07-12 01:22:27 PM  
Such a discussion that everyone misses the point!

The healthcare debate is not about "everyone having access to a good healthcare system". It is about what everything else in washington is about these days: MONEY.

Pure and simple - the huge divide between liberal and conservative is intentional. The class warfare is intentional. It is all designed to distract you from what is really going on. No, I don't mean some crazy whack job conspiracy theory or that aliens are mind controlling everyone. It is plain and simple greed.

Follow the money - Look at the Lobbyist involved, for example, 2 pharmaceutical lobbyist for every every member of congress. Hmm, that has nothing to do with it... What about the exemptions? Congress does not have to participate? How about the Unions? Seems a bit messed up right?

Meanwhile, the "rich", the people paying for it, are not really rich at all but people who are middle class, pay high taxes and work their asses off to try to get by.
 
2012-07-12 01:27:03 PM  
To quote the eloquent Great American philosopher and artiste, Mel Brooks: BULLshiat!

Bullshiat! Bullshiat! Bullshiat!


1) Non-partisan does not mean non-ideological or impartial. The Frazer Institute is a right-wing stink tank that produces propaganda for consumption and dissemination by right-wing politicians, journalists and the right wing public. So Bullshiat.

2) The Bullshiat Frazer Institution is hoping you will draw bullshiat inferences from their bullshiat data. In fact, the number is meaningless without context. What is the context?

Well, I Googled medical tourism and got 20,400,000 hits, about the same number of hits as there are people in Canada who do not pay income taxes or even fill out an income tax form. Canadian health is free to the user for the most part, but even the taxpayers are few and far between. The non-taxpayers really are getting good or great medical care FOR FREE.

Also, what is 40,000-odd Canadians going abroad for health care? What does it mean? How many people come to Canada for health care? How many Americans? How many Americans go abroad for health care.

If each one of those hits represents one medical tourist, the 40,000-odd Canadians represents a disproportionately SMALL number of medical "tourists". Maybe more of us should take advantage of LOW LOW PRICES AND NO WAITING in places like Jamaica, Mexico, the Philappines., Russia, India and China.

Do you think they all go abroad because they are dissatisfied with health care at home or are faced with wait times they choose not to accept?

So? Some of these people are idiots. For example, a much-touted case of a woman facing several months wait who mortgaged her house for $150,000 or so and went to the States for speedier care (it's called QUEUE JUMPING) was probably a bit of a fool. For one thing, she didn't have anything that urgently wrong with her that she might have died. For another, she took on the kind of massive debt that 45,000,000 Americans face at any given time just to jump queue on good quality and timely health care at home. Why would you do that? No doubt there is some narcissism and panic involved in some such cases.

The false inference is that Canadians are unhappy with their health care, but most are not and most of those who are are not dissatisfied with the fact that they can get expensive medicines, treatments, operations, etc., for free, but with the speed of delivery or the lack of certain really expensive items on their personal shopping lists.

In other words, a lot of them are whiners who have been watching too many American TV ads or reading too many magazine ads in American or even Canadian magazines.

ASK YOUR DOCTOR ... IF YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
 
2012-07-12 01:36:54 PM  

ox45tallboy: AppleOptionEsc: Wha-wha-what the? Who are you, and what did you do with trollbait?

Wife-like-typing detected.


Obviously Obamacare is working out for randomjsa. He's clearly back on his meds again.
 
2012-07-12 01:42:36 PM  

Arglex1: What about the exemptions? Congress does not have to participate?


Congress and the Federal government employees have had exchanges for years. The problem with people serving in Congress is what exchange do you put them in? Their home state's exchange? The Washington D.C. exchange? Or one of the surrounding states' exchanges? It really doesn't matter, however, considering that they are purchasing from the same companies you are purchasing from through an exchange system...as they have been doing for many years now.

How about the Unions?

Unions are not exempt. Numerous groups received temporary waivers. The operative word here is temporary. Plenty of propaganda outlets on the far-right wing have pushed the talking point that the unions are exempt. They are not. They received temporary waivers to allow time for reorganization in cases where they fund their own health care plans. They are in no way, shape, or form exempted from the law.

Seems a bit messed up right?

Not when you have the facts.
 
2012-07-12 01:44:23 PM  
I'll be back.

With numbers.

Advertisement
Hello, Everybody! Doctor Nick says: Americans can save 30 to 60% on healthcare costs in Canada. Source: Wikipedia, article on medical tourism


Of course, you can also save money if you shop around for specials and bargains in the US. You might even save money by clipping coupons or getting a vacation/medical package deal. If worse comes to worse, you can wait in line at a free clinic or a discount physician's office. There's nothing much wrong with the US health care industry that beating the buggers to death with a shovel wouldn't cure. That and the highest costs in the world of space and time.
 
2012-07-12 01:47:52 PM  

brantgoose: Well, I Googled medical tourism and got 20,400,000 hits, about the same number of hits as there are people in Canada who do not pay income taxes or even fill out an income tax form. Canadian health is free to the user for the most part, but even the taxpayers are few and far between. The non-taxpayers really are getting good or great medical care FOR FREE.


I really doubt that just 1/3 of Canadians file a tax return. If it is true, more than 1/3 Canadians is employed and will therefore have taxes withheld, thereby paying income taxes even without filing (and likely not claiming various benefits and refunds, as nearly 2/3 of filed tax returns have a refund).
And even if they aren't paying income taxes, they are still pay sales tax etc that fund the government.
 
2012-07-12 01:50:08 PM  

Strongbeerrules: I live in Alberta. Forget this Canadian universal health coverage myth. No dental coverage, hours-long wait at so-called emergency centers, clinics telling you there're booked up and can't help you.....

Unless you have Manulife insurance though your Alanta employer. Then you get respect.


Emergency dental care is covered. Your fillings from drinking too much Coke? Not so much.

Long waiting times in emergency centres are the result of stupid people going to emergency for a cold, or because they stubbed a toe, and because there are no GPs because all the money is in specialized care. If you are bleeding to death, have a compound fracture or are in imminent distress, you skip the queue. If you've cut your finger and need some stitches, you don't need emergency-right-farking-now care. It's called triage. It doesn't help that the Alberta government keeps cutting health funding making it more and more difficult to have enough staff and beds at all levels of care from emergency to palliative.

Clinics are booked up because of several reasons depending on what kind of specialized care you are looking for, but mostly because what few GPs there are send people to specialists for everything now-a-days. I once got sent to a specialist because I had a head cold and my GP "didn't feel comfortable prescribing a decongestant because I might have a sinus infection".

A lot of the anecdotal "evidence" that our healthcare system is farked up is taken too seriously. Are there problems? Yes. Is there strain because provincial governments (I'm looking at you Klein) keep cutting health spending? Yes. Are families forced into penury so they can get medical care? Not very often.
 
2012-07-12 01:52:13 PM  

dywed88: I really doubt that just 1/3 of Canadians file a tax return. If it is true, more than 1/3 Canadians is employed and will therefore have taxes withheld, thereby paying income taxes even without filing (and likely not claiming various benefits and refunds, as nearly 2/3 of filed tax returns have a refund).
And even if they aren't paying income taxes, they are still pay sales tax etc that fund the government.


2/3rds of Canadians are under 18 / over 65?

Course, everyone ends up paying tax with our Good and Services Tax, but i digress...
 
2012-07-12 01:57:04 PM  

wippit: 2/3rds of Canadians are under 18 / over 65?


No reason to not file because you are under 18 or over 65. They can still get benefits from filing.

Half of Canadians are employed and have taxes withheld. Any of them are stupid if they aren't filing returns.
 
2012-07-12 02:02:22 PM  
"Congress and the Federal government employees have had exchanges for years. The problem with people serving in Congress is what exchange do you put them in? Their home state's exchange? The Washington D.C. exchange? Or one of the surrounding states' exchanges? It really doesn't matter, however, considering that they are purchasing from the same companies you are purchasing from through an exchange system...as they have been doing for many years now."

Ah, IC, they have an exchange and the "temporary waiver" they (as well as unions) receive is just temporary. Nice fact until that temporary waiver is extended, and extended again, then again and so on.

Lets just leave congress and the unions out and look at the reality of it:

The U.S. Government is really, really bad at running things. We can list a bunch of things and they are pretty much all run in the gutter and broke.
The Government right now is, well, broke.
Health Care costs have risen quite a bit over the past year (I should know, my plan costs almost 2 grand a month to cover my family).
Bureaucracy slows down progress and true free market (not the corporation controlled market) spurs great innovation.

Maybe, just maybe, if the government would get out of the way, set a few straight forward simple rules that everyone has to follow, the market would correct itself.

If anyone believes that the U.S. government will do a better job of running health care than a free market will, good luck with your social security retirement plan!

You see, a "free" health care system is not "free". It puts more of a burden on the people who pay taxes (and for their own health care).
 
2012-07-12 02:04:20 PM  

Mouldy Squid: Long waiting times in emergency centres are the result of stupid people going to emergency for a cold, or because they stubbed a toe, and because there are no GPs because all the money is in specialized care. If you are bleeding to death, have a compound fracture or are in imminent distress, you skip the queue.


Go in and say you are having breathing issues, and you get in a room immediately (although you could just end up sitting on oxygen for the regular wait). Been there, done that, and repeated.
 
2012-07-12 02:10:32 PM  

Arglex1: If anyone believes that the U.S. government will do a better job of running health care than a free market will, good luck with your social security retirement plan!


Social Security is fine. If we do nothing, a generation will only get 75% of promised, they die and it's back to good. Or just raise the cap on the tax a bit and everything is fine.

Our current health care system puts a burden on those who have private insurance by having to bail out those who don't.
 
2012-07-12 02:16:47 PM  
A free market health care system *could* possibly be better if there wasn't an abundance of asymmetric information.
 
2012-07-12 02:19:09 PM  
Even if this figure is accurate, far more Americans come to Canada for their health care needs.
 
2012-07-12 02:25:45 PM  

Arglex1: Ah, IC, they have an exchange and the "temporary waiver" they (as well as unions) receive is just temporary. Nice fact until that temporary waiver is extended, and extended again, then again and so on.


Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the temporary waiver program will be extended? Anything? Or is this just more far-right wing conspiracy and low-information voter propaganda?

Lets just leave congress and the unions out and look at the reality of it:

Funny, I was looking at the reality of it. You were looking at the far-right wing talking points.

The U.S. Government is really, really bad at running things.

In terms of health care systems, the government is actually better at running them than the private sector. Case in point, the VA system which has been shown to be the best health system in the United States in numerous studies from the National Quality Research Center to RAND. Published peer-reviewed studies have been in the NEJM, American Journal of Medical Quality, and the Journal of the American College of Surgeons to name a few. They also run significantly cheaper than private health care systems.

We can list a bunch of things and they are pretty much all run in the gutter and broke.
The Government right now is, well, broke.
Health Care costs have risen quite a bit over the past year (I should know, my plan costs almost 2 grand a month to cover my family).
Bureaucracy slows down progress and true free market (not the corporation controlled market) spurs great innovation.


That's not true at all for health care. And in fact, in most cases, the government runs things a lot more efficiently than the private sector at a cheaper cost. The number of examples of privatization being a success are few and very far between. Off hand, I can't think of one.

Maybe, just maybe, if the government would get out of the way, set a few straight forward simple rules that everyone has to follow, the market would correct itself.

If anyone believes that the U.S. government will do a better job of running health care than a free market will, good luck with your social security retirement plan!


We've already been there in the US health care system. We've already tried to go back to it as well. It happened in the BBA of 1997 where Republicanists tried to implement free market strategies into the health care system. It was such a failure that the Balanced Budget Refinement Act was passed in 1999 to correct their errors in judgment. Why you are pushing for those same failed tactics again is beyond comprehension. When you remove the government from health care systems all you are left with is places of dense population having adequate health care. Everybody else is screwed seeing as the free market dictates that it is too costly to run a health care system in underutilized areas, even if these underutilized areas still have people in need of care. When Republicanists tried to implement it in 1997, thousands of clinics across the US were about to close their doors. That's the reality of the situation.

You see, a "free" health care system is not "free". It puts more of a burden on the people who pay taxes (and for their own health care).

Actually, all it does is eliminate health care. That's the real burden and the reality of the situation. All you have to do is look at the US health care system prior to government involvement specifically in the form of the Hill-Burton Act. There was no hospital network or care network in the US until that point. That's exactly what you are advocating going back to.

If I were you, and I'm oh so glad that I'm not, I would educate myself before I came spewing this free market bullshiat that has been tried and shown to be an utter failure. If you are unable to adequately educate yourself on the topic at hand, it is your civic duty to not vote and allow those who have educated themselves on the topics at hand make the informed decisions for you.
 
2012-07-12 02:38:16 PM  

Brosef13: A free market health care system *could* possibly be better if there wasn't an abundance of asymmetric information.


Even so, if I have the facilities and staff to provide say.... heart surgery... and you need heart surgery, how much would you pay? And if my price is too high, do you have time to comparison shop?

Health care is not suited for a free market solution. The buyer needs to have the ability to reasonably opt out of the transaction.
 
2012-07-12 02:55:29 PM  
Medical tourists are not counted accurately. Numbers are estimates and highly unreliable.

This site points out the flaws in the numbers, with estimates that range from 150,000 Americans a year to 1,000,000 Americans a year. The low figure does not include Americans who travel to Mexico, Canada, Cuba, or the Caribbean islands that "border" the USA. The high figure includes Mexicans resident in the USA who return to Mexico for medical care they can not get in the US. These may account for half of the high figure, or 500,000.

Despite the shakiness of the numbers, it is clear that many thousands of Americans travel abroad for medical care and that nearby countries such as Mexico and Canada get the bulk of medical tourists. Also, it is likely that there are as many more American medical tourists relative to the population as there are Canadian medical tourists, so differences in the two countries health care don't seem to increase the number of people who go abroad to get medical care, except for illegal or legal Mexicans and Canadians, who presumably will go to their home countries to get medical care if they are eligible for cheaper care or not eligible for medical insurance or care in the USA.

In short, anybody who tells you that people are travelling abroad because the health care at home is farked up is probably talking BS. They haven't got facts to support that, and what facts we have support a lot of other explanations rather than dissatisfaction or quality of care.

Caveat emptor applies to both the ideology or propaganda on one hand and the medical care and insurance on the other.
 
2012-07-12 03:03:39 PM  
k

Mercutio74: Brosef13: A free market health care system *could* possibly be better if there wasn't an abundance of asymmetric information.

Even so, if I have the facilities and staff to provide say.... heart surgery... and you need heart surgery, how much would you pay? And if my price is too high, do you have time to comparison shop?

Health care is not suited for a free market solution. The buyer needs to have the ability to reasonably opt out of the transaction.


Technically if I had perfect information I would know how much you'd charge and you as a provider would have no arbitrage possibilities to 'gouge' me.

Your point makes a good point as the cost of anything is how much an individual is willing to pay for it, that would be much higher in an emergency, and an individual would end up paying much more than the fair cost.

Even single payer systems experience the asymmetric information problem, and doctors could in theory over-prescribe treatments.

That being said I agree a free-market system does not perform optimally for healthcare, just like it would not perform optimally for other 'emergency' services like police and firefighters.
 
2012-07-12 03:05:18 PM  

dywed88: So, in summary,:

An insignificant amount of Canadians (1% who sought medical care) sought treatment in the US.


even better:

despite what the article says, the linked study is clear that the ~1% refers to people who sought treatment outside Canada, not just in the US.

and even better than that, the numbers are estimates based on the number of people who were expected to receive treatment in Canada, but didn't. these aren't counts of actual procedures, these are estimates.

it's all bogus.
 
2012-07-12 03:15:28 PM  

Brosef13: Technically if I had perfect information I would know how much you'd charge and you as a provider would have no arbitrage possibilities to 'gouge' me.

Your point makes a good point as the cost of anything is how much an individual is willing to pay for it, that would be much higher in an emergency, and an individual would end up paying much more than the fair cost.

Even single payer systems experience the asymmetric information problem, and doctors could in theory over-prescribe treatments.

That being said I agree a free-market system does not perform optimally for healthcare, just like it would not perform optimally for other 'emergency' services like police and firefighters.



Perfect information, especially in the case of a highly specialized and technological field like medicine, just isn't reasonably attainable. Even if you had perfect information regarding the cost of diagnostics and treatments, you'd still need the know how to figure out which combination of those items is suitable for your condition. It's a fun thought experiment, but in the real world, it's just not workable.

To me, the solution is much easier when profit is taken out of the equation. That way a nation can focus on how to make a system where doctors are rewarded for taking good care of their patients... as opposed to simply rewarded for over prescribing drugs, diagnostics or procedures... a decent outcome is easier to achieve.
 
2012-07-12 03:41:33 PM  

Clemkdidlefark: coco ebert: I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.

You mean like Sweden with their forced sterilizations and eugenics? Wait, we tried that already. It's called Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood. Maybe we could try free health care, like Belgium where "free" means (a) crushing taxation and (b) no ability to defend their own nation and (c) rampant drug use.

Hmm. I'm going about this all wrong. Not making my case. England where the wait is so long for a dentist people have resorted to pulling their own teeth. Dammit, try again ... uh ... yes, yes! Cuban healthcare! No wait, that's a bad one. Australia, where the ambulance system is obliged to respond to all calls, of course being overwhelmed with evefy kind of call but the real calls for help. Dagnabbit ... there's got to be at least one we can learn from ... Japan? Hmmm, no.

Germany? Hey, maybe yes! But then, it's Germany. The nations of the world keep a pretty close eye on what germans are spending on.

Here's the rub ...

Democrats of 1861 - "I got a right to force people to work my fields!"

Democrats of 2012 - "I got a right to force people to pay for my healthcare!"

Seriously


Say something ridiculously stupid and inflammatory and disappear?
/plonk
 
2012-07-12 03:43:28 PM  
Doc Lee:

Wow, just utter wow!

-Tactics - If you disagree with someone, call them names. (used by both liberals and conservatives) Quite a sad tactic.

I am willing to have a civil debate however, you need to learn a few things before going any further:

I will not call names, insult or degrade you but sarcasm is excellent. Please do the same.
I am not a "republican, or democrat". I vote on issues how I see they make sense.
My knowledge on issues comes from the same general area yours does. Google works for both of us. However, I do plan my life on a budget and wish the government would too.

Now, go back to this statement:

"Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the temporary waiver program will be extended? Anything?"

NOPE. None whatsoever. Lets see how far it gets extended for though.

"In terms of health care systems, the government is actually better at running them than the private sector. Case in point, the VA system which has been shown to be the best health system in the United States in numerous studies from the National Quality Research Center to RAND. Published peer-reviewed studies have been in the NEJM, American Journal of Medical Quality, and the Journal of the American College of Surgeons to name a few. They also run significantly cheaper than private health care systems."

My Mistake. I should have said FEDERAL government. Sometimes States can and will do a good job of something. Federal, always fails.
someone posted above that SS was doing fine except for the baby boomers. That is not true. SS is broke as broke can get. And it is because of the government that it is broke. If in fact it was kept as a retirement plan only and no funds could be used in the general fund, it would not be in trouble. During the Clinton years, it was doing very well. They (congress and senate) raided it. Do I need more examples (lets go truthfully into this):
Federal backed housing market? (fannie may, freddie mac)
Medicare?
How is that war on drugs doing?

"That's not true at all for health care. And in fact, in most cases, the government runs things a lot more efficiently than the private sector at a cheaper cost. The number of examples of privatization being a success are few and very far between. Off hand, I can't think of one."

Here, let me help you: Yes, health care is expensive. If you avoid the WHY, it can't be fixed by simply turning it over to the government. Efficient? I personally service quite a few facilities that are much much much more efficiently run than lets say a VA hospital.

Hopefully you are referring to Health care only. I will stay on topic and bite. What health care system is run more efficiently than private sector? Hopefully you are not referring to medicare. Medicare is a system that is quickly running out of money (as is the rest of the government). What is the number one problem? Prescription medication (IMHO). DRUGS are way overpriced, competition is removed, too many medications and no actual cures. Now, is this a burden of the government to fix? Absolutely because they caused it. Remember the lobbyist I mentioned earlier? Who do you think is pushing mandatory "psych testing"? That would not happen to be part of the Lobby from big pharma would it?

"Actually, all it does is eliminate health care. That's the real burden and the reality of the situation. All you have to do is look at the US health care system prior to government involvement specifically in the form of the Hill-Burton Act. There was no hospital network or care network in the US until that point. That's exactly what you are advocating going back to."

Um, NO. I can go round and round with you on this one but lets take a different approach which I will mention after I finish your post. If you are going to claim that the "back woods" hospitals are only there because of government involvement, I would recommend a bit more research. Take for example the centers in the south like in Texas. These centers are driven by another "evil" industry, big oil (as one example). Not directly but through workman's comp... You see, the workman's comp policies pay for the people to go and use the clinics. They are run efficiently by private corporations because they make money from the people who are injured and use workman's comp. To add to that, they accept insurance and even have payment plans and credit options for people who need it. It can't be free because someone has to pay for it.


If I were you, and I'm oh so glad that I'm not, I would educate myself before I came spewing this free market bullshiat that has been tried and shown to be an utter failure. If you are unable to adequately educate yourself on the topic at hand, it is your civic duty to not vote and allow those who have educated themselves on the topics at hand make the informed decisions for you.

Just to address this again - Dont. You don't need to go there. A civil debate is healthy. A "I know more than you so you are an idiot" argument is not a good debate. Lets keep it civil huh? I will give you a bit of knowledge that I am sure you know but are ignoring:
This country was built by free market ideas. Yes, sometimes you need to regulate industry for the safety of the people. That is it. The reason the U.S. was the best economy in the world is because of capitalism and the free market.

Finally, back to my previous statement:

Taking from some to give to others is socialism. (oh no, I said it!) I am not someone who does not care about the welfare of others, completely the opposite, I help others frequently (as hopefully you do to). However, I am also a firm believer in the idea that you reward someone based on what they do. (uh oh, here comes free market again)

I am one to believe that for a man to be sane, he must work. Whether that work is a job or hobby, he must produce something. If he does not and instead lives off of others, he will do nothing and continue to do nothing. How should I know such a thing? I grew up extremely poor. My family did not accept welfare but worked to get through. I put myself through school. I discovered early on that the harder I worked, the more successful I became. Now, I employ others. In doing so, I see that if I reward based on production, I get excellent people. The flip side of that is that if we reward based on no production, people will not produce and will demand more.

One last statement before I go back to work:
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is exactly that, the pursuit. NOT THE GUARANTEE. Socialism is a destructive act. If you will claim socialism helps, I dare you to go back through the past 50 years of socialism in Europe. Where are their economies now? The only ones doing OK are the ones going back towards capitalism.
 
2012-07-12 03:48:44 PM  
BTW, my mistake on the VA system. I was thinking of a state system you may have been referring to.
That being said, you may want to look elsewhere than the VA hospital system. It is not anywhere near as good as the private health care industry.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/usrun-health-care-ask-vet e ran
 
2012-07-12 03:49:43 PM  

Arglex1: I dare you to go back through the past 50 years of socialism in Europe.


That's pretty disingenuous given your page long claim of rational thinking and honest discussion.
 
2012-07-12 03:53:52 PM  
If one more person blames the euro-crisis on socialism I swear I'll blow my head off.
 
2012-07-12 03:54:27 PM  

Arglex1: Medicare is a system that is quickly running out of money (as is the rest of the government).


and you can thank "conservatives" for that.

pay your farking taxes and like it.
 
2012-07-12 04:03:56 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Nonpartisan.


CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


Came here to say this. Also, I love the first nonpartisan-like sentence: "Among the consequences of poor access to health care in Canada...."
 
2012-07-12 04:42:22 PM  
"The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011." So....like half?

I'm also shocked that rich Canadians who can afford it come to the U.S.
 
2012-07-12 06:05:15 PM  

Arglex1: Doc Lee:

Wow, just utter wow!

-Tactics - If you disagree with someone, call them names. (used by both liberals and conservatives) Quite a sad tactic.


Where did I call anybody a name? I pointed out that you are not educated on the topic at hand.

I am willing to have a civil debate however, you need to learn a few things before going any further:

I will not call names, insult or degrade you but sarcasm is excellent. Please do the same.
I am not a "republican, or democrat". I vote on issues how I see they make sense.
My knowledge on issues comes from the same general area yours does. Google works for both of us. However, I do plan my life on a budget and wish the government would too.


This is not really a debate. This is me standing up here educating you. And your knowledge most certainly doesn't come from the same place as mine unless you've worked for over 40 years in the health care industry in delivery, administration, and development.

Now, back to the education:

NOPE. None whatsoever. Lets see how far it gets extended for though.

Well, the reality of the matter is that temporary waivers were halted. No more are being issued.

"In terms of health care systems, the government is actually better at running them than the private sector. Case in point, the VA system which has been shown to be the best health system in the United States in numerous studies from the National Quality Research Center to RAND. Published peer-reviewed studies have been in the NEJM, American Journal of Medical Quality, and the Journal of the American College of Surgeons to name a few. They also run significantly cheaper than private health care systems."

My Mistake. I should have said FEDERAL government. Sometimes States can and will do a good job of something. Federal, always fails.


The VA (Veterans Affairs) system is a federal government system. Sorry, you are incorrect. Federal doesn't always fail. In fact, Federal rarely fails when compared to comparable work provided by the private sector.

someone posted above that SS was doing fine except for the baby boomers. That is not true. SS is broke as broke can get. And it is because of the government that it is broke. If in fact it was kept as a retirement plan only and no funds could be used in the general fund, it would not be in trouble. During the Clinton years, it was doing very well. They (congress and senate) raided it.

Actually, Reagan raided the SS fund to fund tax cuts for the well off. During the Clinton years, no funds were used to pay for other projects, i.e. no raiding occurred. Other than that, no funds have been used to fund discretionary spending. This is why conservatives say there never really was a surplus.

Do I need more examples (lets go truthfully into this):
Federal backed housing market? (fannie may, freddie mac)


What about them?

Medicare?

One of the most efficient systems with the lowest overhead in the US.

How is that war on drugs doing?

Just great for those in the private sector that keep pushing for it to continue.

In order to avoid nesting errors on this site, I will ignore your "opinions" and address your talking points.

"Medicare is a system that is quickly running out of money (as is the rest of the government)."

This could easily be shored up. The issue is that one party wants to solve the problem, the other party wants to dismantle medicare.

"What is the number one problem? Prescription medication (IMHO). DRUGS are way overpriced, competition is removed, too many medications and no actual cures."

False. Drug costs account for less than 10% of overall health care expenditures. Hospital services and clinical services by far exceed prescription drug costs.

i.imgur.com

"Now, is this a burden of the government to fix? Absolutely because they caused it. Remember the lobbyist I mentioned earlier? Who do you think is pushing mandatory "psych testing"? That would not happen to be part of the Lobby from big pharma would it?"

False, in fact, the federal government implemented generic drug policies back in the 1980s to lower drug costs. There is no mandatory psych testing in the PPACA. The PPACA says that psychological testing is now covered by insurance. That does not mean it is mandatory.

"Um, NO. I can go round and round with you on this one but lets take a different approach which I will mention after I finish your post. If you are going to claim that the "back woods" hospitals are only there because of government involvement, I would recommend a bit more research."

I've removed your opinion for convenience.

"Take for example the centers in the south like in Texas. These centers are driven by another "evil" industry, big oil (as one example). Not directly but through workman's comp... You see, the workman's comp policies pay for the people to go and use the clinics. They are run efficiently by private corporations because they make money from the people who are injured and use workman's comp. To add to that, they accept insurance and even have payment plans and credit options for people who need it. It can't be free because someone has to pay for it."

I've removed your non-factual statement because it simply doesn't mesh with reality. The fact of the matter is that almost every single major treatment facility in the rural south of the US including Texas was established under either Hill Burton or the several Public Health Acts over the years. These hospitals are funded through Medicare/Medicaid Disproportionate Share Hospital programs and rural initiatives. The Hill-Burton Act gave every county in the US a treatment facility. To say that workman's compensation drives the entire industry is nothing more than conjecture that is not supported by anything more than delusion.


"This country was built by free market ideas. Yes, sometimes you need to regulate industry for the safety of the people. That is it. The reason the U.S. was the best economy in the world is because of capitalism and the free market."

False, the country's health care system was not built on free market ideas. It was built only because of direct involvement by the federal government.

"Taking from some to give to others is socialism. (oh no, I said it!) I am not someone who does not care about the welfare of others, completely the opposite, I help others frequently (as hopefully you do to). However, I am also a firm believer in the idea that you reward someone based on what they do. (uh oh, here comes free market again)"

Then you should probably move out of Texas.

"I am one to believe that for a man to be sane, he must work. Whether that work is a job or hobby, he must produce something. If he does not and instead lives off of others, he will do nothing and continue to do nothing. How should I know such a thing? I grew up extremely poor. My family did not accept welfare but worked to get through. I put myself through school. I discovered early on that the harder I worked, the more successful I became. Now, I employ others. In doing so, I see that if I reward based on production, I get excellent people. The flip side of that is that if we reward based on no production, people will not produce and will demand more."

Don't you only have a high school education with some college and are a worker in network administration? You're not exactly high up on the totem poll in order to make hiring decisions. And I really don't care what your personal opinions are on how things should and shouldn't be run when your ideology doesn't mesh with reality. And, not to mention, you're speaking to somebody that has founded two biotech companies over the years and currently employs a staff of over 75 in a new biotech company venture that's well funded for the next 10 years. Forgive me if I don't take your business sense (or non-sense) for anything more than ideological ramblings.

One last statement before I go back to work:
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is exactly that, the pursuit. NOT THE GUARANTEE. Socialism is a destructive act. If you will claim socialism helps, I dare you to go back through the past 50 years of socialism in Europe. Where are their economies now? The only ones doing OK are the ones going back towards capitalism.


You seem to flip back and forth on a lot of things. We are talking strictly health care here. It is a fact that health care delivery systems are more cost effective when administered at the national governmental level. Look at the ruin that private finance initiatives have had on the socialized medical system in the UK. Their budget gap is exactly the amount of money they spent on these failed back door privatization ventures. Do you think that's just coincidence?
 
2012-07-12 06:06:20 PM  
Arglex1 ....."Socialism is a destructive act."

My god what a naive individual you are. Enjoy your lower life expentancy,a health care expenditure that is twice what Canada's is and an overall health ranking of 72 in the world.I could go on and on ad nauseum. The real problem with the US health care is uninformed,brainwashed people who equate things in their most simplistic terms and draw conclusions without any real factual basis.
 
2012-07-12 06:08:44 PM  

Arglex1: BTW, my mistake on the VA system. I was thinking of a state system you may have been referring to.
That being said, you may want to look elsewhere than the VA hospital system. It is not anywhere near as good as the private health care industry.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/usrun-health-care-ask-vet e ran


The Cato Institute is not a reliable source of information.

This line really gets me:

"Four years later (2007), there were disturbing stories about "a vast outpouring of accounts filled with emotion and anger about the mistreatment of wounded outpatients" at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. Although Walter Reed isn't a VA facility, it became clear that many similar problems occurred at VA facilities."

Walter Reed was privatized in 2000. Do you not see how you are being manipulated by these junk reports?
 
2012-07-12 06:13:39 PM  

CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


They'll think twice after they eat my delicious polonium poutine.
 
2012-07-12 07:29:59 PM  
I can't believe I got into an argument on a stupid thread... Here we go again. I think I will let it end after this post... I even know that Extreme Lefties are just as stubborn as Extreme Righties. One of the problems with the country as a whole...

OK...

"Where did I call anybody a name? I pointed out that you are not educated on the topic at hand."

Ok, no name calling, but back-handed comments about education. Intentional insult from a POV. Ok, no bones broken. You know what I mean whether you admit it or not.

"Well, the reality of the matter is that temporary waivers were halted. No more are being issued."

Of course not, they already got what they needed.

"The VA (Veterans Affairs) system is a federal government system. Sorry, you are incorrect. Federal doesn't always fail. In fact, Federal rarely fails when compared to comparable work provided by the private sector."

Ok, you are right, the VA is government run. Up until the 90s, it was the absolute worst system available. Since you would like to use it as an example and claim to educate someone (give me a break already), someone (you already know who) took control over it and turned it around in the early 00s. In doing so, they did exactly the OPPOSITE of what the new health care act wants to do and removed the majority of the bureaucracy. However, the paper process is still horrendous, and they still have a LOT of problems to work out. (should I mention now about the facility possibly giving quite a few veterans HIV, Hepatitus etc.._)

Shining example of the "best" health care system? NO. In fact, it is a pretty good example of what bureaucracy will do to our current system. The fact is that you and I arguing about it will do no good. If things go as planned, this will be a completely different conversation in 10 years.

"Medicare?

One of the most efficient systems with the lowest overhead in the US."

You seriously believe that? With the eminent failure (out of money completely)?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-24/features/ct-edit-truste e s-0424-20120424_1_hospital-insurance-program-medicare-social-security

yeah, go attack the Chicago tribune now instead of looking at our over inflated budget now... How about Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/04/23/trustees-medicare-will-go - broke-in-2016-if-you-exclude-obamacares-double-counting/

"This could easily be shored up. The issue is that one party wants to solve the problem, the other party wants to dismantle medicare."

Don't you see that I am not for Either party but for a working solution? I honestly don't believe EITHER party wants to dismantle medicare yet that is a good way to scare seniors. (I really hate politics)

"False, in fact, the federal government implemented generic drug policies back in the 1980s to lower drug costs. There is no mandatory psych testing in the PPACA. The PPACA says that psychological testing is now covered by insurance. That does not mean it is mandatory."

Quite honestly, I won't go against that statement except that you Mis-understand me completely. There is no Mandatory testing that I know of, however, it is being pushed. There are organizations on BOTH sides of the aisle fighting against it (thus the drastic increase in pharma lobby spending). It is simply one of my pet peeves.

"I've removed your non-factual statement because it simply doesn't mesh with reality. The fact of the matter is that almost every single major treatment facility in the rural south of the US including Texas was established under either Hill Burton or the several Public Health Acts over the years. These hospitals are funded through Medicare/Medicaid Disproportionate Share Hospital programs and rural initiatives. The Hill-Burton Act gave every county in the US a treatment facility. To say that workman's compensation drives the entire industry is nothing more than conjecture that is not supported by anything more than delusion."

Ok... Again, you mis-understand. I am not stating that HOSPITALS are funded through comp or strictly any other programs. I am stating there are centers created for that. I know well about how the hospital system was formed (and a lot of the strong / weak points for it) but that is not the topic of discussion is it? To take a single example I give and claim as you have is, well, not worth much more of a comment.

Back to medication - that generic drug program... (again, pharma is only one of my examples) Did you know that the price charged at the counter for the drugs to insurance companies is over a 1000 percent increase in the costs? There are medications that cost the pharmacy 2 dollars per pill and the pharmacy is paid 80 per pill by the insurance companies. Guess who sets the pricing (its not the pharmacy but they sure do win on it)?

I am going to skip a bit because you really did not read what I typed at all... For example this:
"This country was built by free market ideas. Yes, sometimes you need to regulate industry for the safety of the people. That is it. The reason the U.S. was the best economy in the world is because of capitalism and the free market."

Is talking about how our country became the number 1 economy in the world, not how the health care system was formed. It is part of a point. Oh, and look at how hospitals ran in the past couple of decades. They were a whole lot more about capitalism than about actually doing any socialized good. That is free market driven. The technology (even in your industry) is free market driven, etc.

"Then you should probably move out of Texas."

Try again. I live in a blue state.

Don't you only have a high school education with some college and are a worker in network administration? You're not exactly high up on the totem poll in order to make hiring decisions. And I really don't care what your personal opinions are on how things should and shouldn't be run when your ideology doesn't mesh with reality. And, not to mention, you're speaking to somebody that has founded two biotech companies over the years and currently employs a staff of over 75 in a new biotech company venture that's well funded for the next 10 years. Forgive me if I don't take your business sense (or non-sense) for anything more than ideological ramblings.


back handed comment. read above. I could come down a few notches but prefer not to.

Actually after that, I don't prefer to discuss this anymore....
 
2012-07-12 07:59:15 PM  

brantgoose: I'll be back.

With numbers.

Advertisement
Hello, Everybody! Doctor Nick says: Americans can save 30 to 60% on healthcare costs in Canada. Source: Wikipedia, article on medical tourism

Of course, you can also save money if you shop around for specials and bargains in the US. You might even save money by clipping coupons or getting a vacation/medical package deal. If worse comes to worse, you can wait in line at a free clinic or a discount physician's office. There's nothing much wrong with the US health care industry that beating the buggers to death with a shovel wouldn't cure. That and the highest costs in the world of space and time.


There are "cash" fee-for-service doctors where you can get surgery done for much less than normal. They tell you the price up front. Some of them take insurance, but they advise you to pay up front if you can, then file an insurance claim. Chances are the insurance payment schedule pays way more for the procedure, so the patient makes out like a bandit.

Here's one: Link
 
2012-07-12 08:35:45 PM  
Medical research, development, and verification is completely free. Therefore, big pharma is all margin and has no investment or risk, and any price over market for the raw materials is Eviiiillll Capatilism.
 
2012-07-12 08:51:50 PM  
So, that's like, 20% of the population of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Wow!
 
2012-07-13 12:55:40 AM  
And my grandfather makes a trip about once a year to Mexico to get his teeth cleaned and fixed. Because he can't afford the dentists in the US.
 
2012-07-13 03:50:13 PM  
GIS- Population of Canada 34,482,779
46,159 / 34,482,779 x 100 = 0.13% of the population sought care outside the country.

 
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