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(The Daily Caller)   "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011." So....like half?   (dailycaller.com) divider line 262
    More: Interesting, Fraser Institute, Canadians, public health care, Prince Edward Island, therapies, elective  
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4125 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2012 at 1:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-11 09:40:42 PM
 
2012-07-11 09:42:59 PM
Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?
 
2012-07-11 09:46:21 PM
Poutrage.
 
2012-07-11 09:46:32 PM
How does that compare to the number of Ameicans who had Indian surgeries or cross the border to buy pharmaceuticals in Canada or Mexico?
 
2012-07-11 09:49:26 PM
So then this is a different Fraser institute than the Conservative Right-Libertarian Fraser Institute?
 
2012-07-11 09:53:27 PM
The Fraser Institute is non partisan ish. The Daily Caller, not even so much. Slanted story has slippery sides.
19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist...what for water on the knee?
less that 3% of Canadians waiting for treatment any any given time... How many 'mericans are waiting just now?
AND how many more aren't even eligible for treatment?
46k Canadians have coin extra enough to blow to jump the queue and take a few days or maybe a couple of weeks off their treatment for SOMETHING NON LIFE THREATENING. Good for them, good for the American docs treating these assholes, every body wins, but it looks bad in the press. DC, FU. KTHXBI
 
2012-07-11 10:07:59 PM
Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment. This is still covered by our government healthcare. Likewise Americans who live on the border will sometimes come across the border to get treatment in Canada if the treatment or equipment is not available where they live and the Canadian hospital is closer than the nearest American hospital that offers the same treatment or equipment, and if their health insurance will cover it.

This is hardly a case of Canadians (or Americans) "fleeing the country" for healthcare.

Likewise there are some people (in both Canada and the US) who will travel to "medical tourism" hospitals in countries such as India, Mexico, and Venezuela where they can get treatment in an environment that is more like a luxury resort than a hospital (I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice). They also go there because these countries will offer dangerous, controversial, or experimental treatments and procedures that are not approved in Canada or the US. As far as I know, these procedures will not be covered by our government health care but may be covered or partially covered by private insurance.

As I said, cross border healthcare is not unheard of for both Canadian and Americans who live alone the border. The difference between the Canadians going across the border for healthcare and the Americans going across the border for healthcare is our government pays for it when we get treated in an American hospital.
 
2012-07-11 10:28:28 PM
Being the bastion of integrity that it is, I'm sure the Daily Caller gave due attention to the many thousands of Americans who seek medical care or medicine outside of the USA...right?

Oh...and "nonpartisan?"

multimedia.billybrew.com
 
2012-07-11 11:18:13 PM
this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare, too. the perceived shortcomings of arbitrarily-chosen statistics in canada is a poor way to frame the argument against universal healthcare.

if they canada got these numbers up, such that this particular set of statistics would shine when compared to a free-market system, would that sway anyone's mind? of course it wouldn't. it's just chosen because it makes universal healthcare look bad and would be totally ignored if it didn't.
 
2012-07-11 11:36:20 PM
Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(
 
2012-07-11 11:50:56 PM
Isn't it the time of night for that one guy who traveled to America for a highly specialized surgery that he was paying for out of pocket to give an interview on FOX? Those always confirm my belief that USA is #1.
 
2012-07-11 11:59:07 PM
The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.
 
2012-07-12 12:09:47 AM
For those too lazy to look for the actual report, here's a link. (warning, PDF).

For those too lazy to click a link, go run your fat asses around the block a few times, then read these choice excerpts:

In 2011, a significant number of Canadians-an estimated
46,159-received treatment outside of the country.2 Increases
between 2010 and 2011 in the estimated number of patients
going outside Canada for treatment were seen in British
Columbia (5,565 to 9,180), Saskatchewan (943 to 1,221),
Manitoba (933 to 1,436), New Brunswick (282 to 526),
Nova Scotia (851 to 1,271), Prince Edward Island (44 to 54),
and Newfoundland and Labrador (130 to 433). Conversely,
Ontario (23,192 to 18,172) saw a decrease in the estimated
number of patients who received treatment outside Canada.3

SNIP

In 2011, 1.0% of all patients in Canada
were estimated to have received non-emergency medical
treatment outside Canada, the same as in 2010.


Wow, a whopping 1%!!! And it's the same as last year!! Clearly, this is a trend towards a breakdown in Canadian Health Care! Of course, this also includes elective surgeries, such as boob jobs, liposuction, and facelifts, but let's not let that ruin a good story...

So how about in the good ole US of A? What percentage get non-emergency medical care elsewhere?

Well, according to Gallup, 29% would consider going abroad for non-emergency medical treatment. But how many do?

Over the last few years, medical tourism has been steadily rising. In 2008, 540,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical procedures. In 2009, that number rose to 648,000, and in 2010 it was 878,000. It is expected to rise to 1,300,000 individuals by this year.

So we get 1.3 million, out of 310 million, or 0.41%. Of course, that number comes from the uninsured or under-insured, or those whose insurance company drops them when they get sick, right?

Of course, American Health Insurance Providers would NEVER send their patients to another country to receive medical care, right? Right?
 
2012-07-12 12:13:47 AM

Chafed Willi: Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(


No, but the fact that the aspirin was likely made in China does.

Fun fact: China now produces about two-thirds of all aspirin and is poised to become the world's sole global supplier in the not-too-distant future.
 
2012-07-12 12:20:55 AM

Rusty Shackleford: The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.


blogs.mcall.com

"Not on my network they don't."
 
2012-07-12 01:20:47 AM

Ghastly: Okay.... first of all, people who live in cities near the border like Hamilton, Niagara Falls, and Windsor will sometimes go to hospitals across the border for healthcare if a hospital across the border offers the treatment or has a diagnostic device that is not available at a hospital where they live and the American hospital is closer than a Canadian hospital with the same programme or equipment. This is still covered by our government healthcare. Likewise Americans who live on the border will sometimes come across the border to get treatment in Canada if the treatment or equipment is not available where they live and the Canadian hospital is closer than the nearest American hospital that offers the same treatment or equipment, and if their health insurance will cover it.

This is hardly a case of Canadians (or Americans) "fleeing the country" for healthcare.

Likewise there are some people (in both Canada and the US) who will travel to "medical tourism" hospitals in countries such as India, Mexico, and Venezuela where they can get treatment in an environment that is more like a luxury resort than a hospital (I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice). They also go there because these countries will offer dangerous, controversial, or experimental treatments and procedures that are not approved in Canada or the US. As far as I know, these procedures will not be covered by our government health care but may be covered or partially covered by private insurance.

As I said, cross border healthcare is not unheard of for both Canadian and Americans who live alone the border. The difference between the Canadians going across the border for healthcare and the Americans going across the border for healthcare is our government pays for it when we get treated in an American hospital.


I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.
 
2012-07-12 01:25:50 AM

ox45tallboy: For those too lazy to look for the actual report, here's a link. (warning, PDF).

For those too lazy to click a link, go run your fat asses around the block a few times, then read these choice excerpts:

In 2011, a significant number of Canadians-an estimated
46,159-received treatment outside of the country.2 Increases
between 2010 and 2011 in the estimated number of patients
going outside Canada for treatment were seen in British
Columbia (5,565 to 9,180), Saskatchewan (943 to 1,221),
Manitoba (933 to 1,436), New Brunswick (282 to 526),
Nova Scotia (851 to 1,271), Prince Edward Island (44 to 54),
and Newfoundland and Labrador (130 to 433). Conversely,
Ontario (23,192 to 18,172) saw a decrease in the estimated
number of patients who received treatment outside Canada.3

SNIP

In 2011, 1.0% of all patients in Canada
were estimated to have received non-emergency medical
treatment outside Canada, the same as in 2010.

Wow, a whopping 1%!!! And it's the same as last year!! Clearly, this is a trend towards a breakdown in Canadian Health Care! Of course, this also includes elective surgeries, such as boob jobs, liposuction, and facelifts, but let's not let that ruin a good story...

So how about in the good ole US of A? What percentage get non-emergency medical care elsewhere?

Well, according to Gallup, 29% would consider going abroad for non-emergency medical treatment. But how many do?

Over the last few years, medical tourism has been steadily rising. In 2008, 540,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical procedures. In 2009, that number rose to 648,000, and in 2010 it was 878,000. It is expected to rise to 1,300,000 individuals by this year.

So we get 1.3 million, out of 310 million, or 0.41%. Of course, that number comes from the uninsured or under-insured, or those whose insurance company drops them when they get sick, right?

Of course, American Health Insurance Providers would NEVER send their patients to another country to receive medical care, right? Right?


Just think how high the number of Americans going abroad for medical reasons would be if more had passports.
 
2012-07-12 01:29:21 AM
I wonder how many Americans are in or fund this Fraser Institute. Regardless, I wish we Americans would stop trying to export our shiatty, failed policies and instead stfu and focus on fixing our own problems. Perhaps by learning from other countries. Such a novel idea, ain't it.
 
2012-07-12 01:44:37 AM

sigdiamond2000: Nonpartisan.


Maybe "nonpartisan" is the new "fair and balanced"?
 
2012-07-12 01:45:43 AM

unlikely: So then this is a different Fraser institute than the Conservative Right-Libertarian Fraser Institute?


And did they ever find out what to do with those tossed salads and scrambled eggs??
 
2012-07-12 01:47:20 AM

Chafed Willi: Today I got aspirin out of my arm rest dealy in my car, which was probably made in china. Does that mean I outsourced my medical treatment to China? I haz a sad :(


Most of the active ingredients in your drugs come from India, Pakistan, and China. But that isn't new. It's been like that for ages. The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.
 
2012-07-12 01:50:29 AM

timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.


I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.
 
2012-07-12 01:51:43 AM
What a coincidence. 46,159 is exactly how many poor people die in the US each year because we have a retarded health care system and an uninformed and stupid electorate.
 
2012-07-12 01:51:52 AM
Healthcare first, then election reform, then immigration, then abortion.
 
2012-07-12 01:52:07 AM
I stopped reading at nonpartisan once I googled this place. I realized this wasn't some bizzarro universe where 1984-type doublespeak was the normal mode of communication.
 
2012-07-12 01:52:17 AM
I've heard that many American women go to Mexico to have a breast implant procedure, because it's way cheaper
 
2012-07-12 01:53:37 AM
SUBBY is a partisan hack. At least 2, possibly 5 errors in the headline.
 
2012-07-12 01:54:24 AM

ciberido: timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.


Both of them?
 
2012-07-12 01:55:09 AM
I like how the source document is authored by Nadeem Esmail and out of 6 references cited, he's authored 4 of them. Oh, I'm sure there's a very good explanation for this.

I am merely verbalizing.
 
2012-07-12 01:55:39 AM
Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?
 
2012-07-12 01:57:06 AM

cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?


That, sir, is anti-Semitic and has no place in a reputable forum such as Fark.
 
2012-07-12 01:57:16 AM

Rusty Shackleford: The nonpartisan Himmler Institute reports that Jews may be controlling the international media.


Hahahaa. Nice.
 
2012-07-12 01:57:33 AM

sno man: 19 weeks to get from GP to a specialist and get treated by said specialist


I heard a new patient talking to my endocrinologist's receptionist in the waiting room in late June and they scheduled an appt. for mid-September.
 
2012-07-12 01:59:58 AM

f00f: this is a really shiatty argument. i'm saying this as someone against universal healthcare


How do you feel about air? For? Against?
 
2012-07-12 02:00:05 AM
In Watchmen, Nixon is still president in the 80's and there's a magical naked blue dude who has control over space and time.

In that universe, this is totes legit.TFA seems to be referring to that universe, instead of an actual real universe where you and I live.

Easy mistake to make. Those keys are right next to each other.
 
2012-07-12 02:01:00 AM
ciberido
timujin: I wonder if this also includes tourists who go to hospitals in other countries.

I have a kind of running joke that I'm going to write a "guide to hospitals on other continents" considering some of the ones I've been in.

Short version: try to stay out of hospitals in Mongolia.


It's funny 'cause you said that to a guy called Timujim.

untaken_name
The pharma companies buy their ingredients for a few dollars per ton and then sell them for dollars per microgram. It's a pretty good racket, if you're in it.

The 43 precious-metal-catalysed synthetic steps to turn the raw material into the final product do add a few dollars to the cost. However, that doesn't justify perpetual patents and inflated prices, especially since a lot of the research to figure out those 43 steps happens at publically funded universities.
 
2012-07-12 02:02:34 AM

butt-nuggets: I've heard that many American women go to Mexico to have a breast implant procedure, because it's way cheaper


And you can smuggle a lot of drugs in those new double-D's.
 
2012-07-12 02:02:50 AM
FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:12 AM

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


Then you'll want the supplementary burn insurance.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:46 AM

Ghastly: I stayed in such a hospital in India once, very very nice


I had no idea that you'd already had the operation. Congratulations!

/Now show us!

CraicBaby: Yeah, I was just gonna say, aren't they the right-wing group that is trying to get rid of universal healthcare in Canada?


Has there ever been a think tank or lobby group that didn't claim to be non-partisan? "We're lobbying to outlaw solar power and increase oil subsidies, but we're non-partisan because we try to buy off both sides." and vice versa for liberal groups.
 
2012-07-12 02:05:59 AM
How many brazilians is that? I never can do international conversions in my head ...
 
2012-07-12 02:06:46 AM
In related news, a few million Americans sought medical treatment nowhere because they can't afford a routine doctor's visit. USA! USA! USA!
 
2012-07-12 02:07:51 AM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: How many brazilians is that? I never can do international conversions in my head ...


This many:

www.bbc.co.uk
 
2012-07-12 02:09:16 AM
My Dad had to wait a little over 2 months for his knee replacement surgery here in the US. I guess it's time that we patriotic americans forgo our needed surgeries and medical treatments so the the rich important conservative douche bags can have next day service under Obama care.
 
2012-07-12 02:11:51 AM

cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?


Or Canadians who are working abroad.
 
2012-07-12 02:12:37 AM

bronyaur1: How does that compare to the number of Ameicans who had Indian surgeries or cross the border to buy pharmaceuticals in Canada or Mexico?


"Although up from 500,000 in 2006 to 750,000 in 2007, the number of Americans travelling abroad for healthcare is tipped to increase to 6 million by 2010. "

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/960/a-revolution-in-healthcare

The article is from January 2008. No idea what the current numbers are.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:32 AM

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


--------------------

Nobody is claiming that the American system doesn't work great in many cases. The problem is that when it doesn't work, which is relatively often, someone ends up either bankrupt or not getting proper medical care. No other industrialized country lets this happen.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:34 AM
encrypted-tbn2.google.com

In 2006, 500k US folks took off for healthcare in other countries...
Link

What have you found? I'm not finding more recent stats.
 
2012-07-12 02:13:48 AM

limboslam: FTFA: "....an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment."

Holy crap. Last month the evil American medical system I have to deal with had me wait a whole 5 days from my gp's referral to a specialist. Cost me a whole $10 out of pocket for the whole thing. Well, not counting the $120 I contribute every month to my Employer supplied health insurance. So not too bad. If Obamacare messes this up for me, I'm taking a flamethrower to this place.


I would take any numbers provided by the Daily Caller as somewhere between damned lies and statistics. The actual average is 2-4 weeks, depending on the specialist and local availability, which is right in line with my American experiences, and nearly 90% of everyone seen within 12 weeks. In my mom's case, her disintegrated hip referral took 26 weeks because only one man in all of northern California specialized in the procedure she needed. (She already had a titanium femur, so it wasn't a normal hip replacement.) Hers is the kind of extreme outlier case that doesn't happen often anywhere, though.

19 week average is probably sourced from a blog or chain letter somewhere.
 
2012-07-12 02:14:16 AM

cc_rider: cmb53208: Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 45,000 are Canadian retirees getting health care at hospitals in Florida?

Or Canadians who are working abroad.


Or Canadians who live right on the border to where American facilities are closer than Canadian facilities. Like someone one from Windsor choosing Detroit over Toronto for something only available in the biggest cities.
 
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