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(Washington Post)   Obama: "FACT: In 2010 and 2011, Romney paid less than 15% in taxes on $42.5 million in income-much less than what many middle-class families pay." Reality: "BULLSHIAT"   (washingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, middle-class families, adjusted gross income, itemized deductions, families pay, middle class, taxpayers, Tax Policy Center  
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3613 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Jul 2012 at 11:16 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-11 11:44:30 AM  

Maud Dib: Alphax: technicolor-misfit: Glicky: Donating to your church probably shouldn't go in the same category as charity...


Have you seen how dull the flat-screen in the fitness center is? It has lost all of its vibrancy... ALL of it.

Fitness center? In a church?


Get a BRAIN, Moroni.


[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x331]


Actually, a victory chapel.
 
2012-07-11 11:45:25 AM  

coeyagi: If donating to LDS is charity, I'll call what I do while watching Cinemax "donating to the sperm bank".


I'll call what I do after work "donating to the Rastafarians", and the ensuing feast "donating to FSM".
 
2012-07-11 11:46:44 AM  

Citrate1007: He also donates about 14 percent of his income to charity

The Mormon church is not a charity.


To make it more fun, Romney's tithe to the Mormons is generally done by giving them stock he received as payment from Bain, so he avoids paying the capital gains he'd get hit with if he sold the stock AND he gets a write-off for the donation.
 
2012-07-11 11:48:37 AM  

Serious Black: jehovahs witness protection: So he pays $6,375,000 in taxes for one year.
I wonder how many welfare recipients were propped up by this one evil person.

So why don't we just make every taxpayer have an equal bill of, say, $30,000?


Can I get a little consideration for the 6 years spent in the military? What if you serve (job and peace corps qualify maybe programs like National Health Service) and then for x * number of years served, you get a federal income tax break?

It has to be meaningful though like 5 years of tax rate reduction for every year served. Lifers could get the tax break on their military pensions only; but for the rest of their lives. We need people to teach and to re-build our infrastructure etc. Many job categories could qualify but not all state or federal employment.
 
2012-07-11 11:49:55 AM  
i'm having a huge problem with the Tax Policy Center's effective tax rate figures. other than the child tax credit, it does not specify what other deductions it takes into account. is mortgage interest included, and how much? what about 401k/ira? charitable donations?

what is the sample size? is the center calculating for everybody or is it using a random sample?

Link
 
2012-07-11 11:51:37 AM  
Let me get this straight...

"In 2010 and 2011, Romney paid less than 15% in taxes on $42.5 million in income..."

True.

"...much less than what many middle-class families pay."

Also true.

But somehow the whole thing is false.

Something something liberal media.
 
2012-07-11 11:51:44 AM  
FTA: He pays relatively little in payroll taxes because the 6.2 percent Social Security tax maxes out once you earn a certain amount - $110,100 in 2012. Romney in effect earns that much by Jan. 3.

Romney in effect earns that much ($110,100) by Jan. 3.

Mitt Romney earns more by his second work day of the year than the average HOUSEHOLD makes for a year.

Mitt Romney's two-day take is MORE THAN DOUBLE the average yearly US salary.

Mitt Romney could have paid my lifetime tax bill with interest earned from a 6-month 1.5% CD on that two-day salary.

And this is the Man of the People, who Knows What It's Like and Feels Our Pain? The guy whose yearly budget for "horse dressage" - fark that, a guy who HAS a yearly budget for "horse dressage" - is the Best Man for the Job?

I don't think he has any conception of what taxation is like for anyone earning under $150k (I mean, the GOP in general don't, but for a guy whose whole persona is "BusinessGuy", he probably should). Sure, Mitt('s people) could likely look at anyone's tax filings and figure out a way to game a 5-10% lower bill, but that's the point - regular people don't have access to the same privileges as Mitt, and he doesn't get that his inability to grasp that fact is an issue.
 
2012-07-11 11:53:04 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Isn't that still less than most middle class Americans?


not really, no - while the tax brackets are higher than that, their effective rates are, in general, not higher than that.
 
2012-07-11 11:53:34 AM  

qorkfiend: coeyagi: If donating to LDS is charity, I'll call what I do while watching Cinemax "donating to the sperm bank".

I'll call what I do after work "donating to the Rastafarians", and the ensuing feast "donating to FSM".


If donating to LDS is charity, Obama was just helping the SPCA with the pet population while in Indonesia.
 
2012-07-11 11:55:47 AM  

coeyagi: Newsflash: My degree-earning sister made $30,000 in farking LA because that is what someone with her degree made right out of school.

You really should check some stats - there are plenty of degree earners who make less than 50K right out of school and for several years. In fact, the word I would use is "most".


Newsflash: "And" and "or" are two different words. Someone earning $30k is not middle class whether or not they have a degree.
 
2012-07-11 11:56:09 AM  
What I got from the article is that if you earn respectable $130k you are taxed heavier than Romney, but this is fair because most people make less.
 
2012-07-11 11:56:40 AM  

EatHam: not really, no - while the tax brackets are higher than that, their effective rates are, in general, not higher than that.


I can't speak for all middle-class people. But I effectively paid a whole farkload more than 15% in taxes on my income last year. I am part of the "many" mentioned in Obama's accurate tweet.
 
2012-07-11 11:56:44 AM  
The tithing done to the Mormon Church is the same as fees paid to Scientology. LDS is one of the largest land owners - if not the largest land owner - in the US. Everything they do is for profit.

Romney's payment to LDS is a fee imposed by the church in order to get their own planet and have a lot of celestial sex. LDS is all about the heaven poontang. Their harps only play the "whacka-whacka" rhythms from cheap porn movies as they slowly pull off their special godly undies.
 
2012-07-11 11:57:18 AM  
But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.
 
2012-07-11 11:57:47 AM  

Glicky: Donating to your church probably shouldn't go in the same category as charity...


Wrong line of attack.

The simple fact is, as the article admits, that Romney got $42.5 million in income that was taxed at 15% FTFA:

Romney released his 2010 tax return and an estimate of his 2011 return earlier this year. He earned a little more than $20 million each year, a good chunk of it in capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a preferential rate as low as 15 percent.

What the author is trying to do is mix in Romney's earned income with his capital gains income to say that Obama was being "misleading." I guess if stating objectively existing, undeniable facts of reality is "misleading," he was.
 
2012-07-11 11:59:01 AM  

thurstonxhowell: coeyagi: Newsflash: My degree-earning sister made $30,000 in farking LA because that is what someone with her degree made right out of school.

You really should check some stats - there are plenty of degree earners who make less than 50K right out of school and for several years. In fact, the word I would use is "most".

Newsflash: "And" and "or" are two different words. Someone earning $30k is not middle class whether or not they have a degree.


That was not the point I was trying to illustrate. I was illustrating that there are plenty of degree holders who make less than 50K.
 
2012-07-11 11:59:13 AM  

Arkanaut: But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.


This.

FTFA:

Obama's tweet was technically correct.

Unfortunately, the author failed to balance that sentence with "which is the best kind of correct."

Biased article is biased.
 
2012-07-11 11:59:44 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Mitt Romney could have paid my lifetime tax bill with interest earned from a 6-month 1.5% CD on that two-day salary.


No. That's incorrect. A 6-month CD at 1.5% would earn $828 and change. To get my lifetime income tax bill - using the same stupid math that says the lower 47% pay no taxes - I estimate $1000/year in my working years (about 7) and $500/year before that (23) = $18,500. Which is a high estimate, but whatevs.

I'd need over 10 years of interest on that 1.5% CD to get to $18.5k.

// it also depends how often interest is calculated
// Mitt Romney could buy and sell us - some might say he already is/has - with the profits from a single investment
// and has the balls to claim he can understand the problem while denying it even exists
 
2012-07-11 12:00:54 PM  

coeyagi: If donating to LDS is charity, I'll call what I do while watching Cinemax "donating to the sperm bank".


Well, to be fair, the LDS church is a HUGE charity, gardens, farms, grain silos, food warehouses, all dedicated to their welfare system. They also go to disaster scenes and have a chain of thrift stores where all money is also given to their charities.
 
2012-07-11 12:01:02 PM  

Arkanaut: But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.


ELITIST!
 
2012-07-11 12:01:17 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: So, it's still fact.
Romney having enough extra money lying around to donate doesn't really change the fact that he paid only a 15% tax rate.
fark, from the article, it says that without the donation, he'd have been paying 19%. Isn't that still less than most middle class Americans?

Besides, it is really virtuous charity when you have that much extra lying around to donate to offset your tax burden?

Alot of the right wing derp is that contributing to the social welfare should be voluntary, not forced via taxes. Do they also advocate removing tax incentives from charity, as that brings a reward that would screw otherwise selfless giving?


Lol. You have no farking clue as to the effective tax rates. How about learning something and going to IRS.gov to look at the effective tax rates by quintile.
 
2012-07-11 12:02:12 PM  

Arkanaut: But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.


the "many" I can dig. Paying less than an entire quintile of taxpayers can legitimately be called "many".
It's the "much less" part that is a little iffy for me.
 
2012-07-11 12:03:23 PM  
He got a $77,000 deduction for his horse.
 
2012-07-11 12:03:49 PM  

Mikey1969: coeyagi: If donating to LDS is charity, I'll call what I do while watching Cinemax "donating to the sperm bank".

Well, to be fair, the LDS church is a HUGE charity, gardens, farms, grain silos, food warehouses, all dedicated to their welfare system. They also go to disaster scenes and have a chain of thrift stores where all money is also given to their charities.


What a HUGE charity might look like.

www.lds.net

While I do agree they do some good, their overhead is pretty high and they do some pretty despicable things to offset their good works, such as baptize the dead regardless of the dead's next of kin's wishes and prevent Boy Scout policy from allowing homosexual leaders into their ranks.
 
2012-07-11 12:04:19 PM  

skullkrusher: Arkanaut: But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.

the "many" I can dig. Paying less than an entire quintile of taxpayers can legitimately be called "many".
It's the "much less" part that is a little iffy for me.


Weasel words are weasel words for a weason.
 
2012-07-11 12:04:39 PM  

Glenn Beck Knows a Strawman: Ok.... the point he was trying to make is this:

You - Income 50K a year, buy a $1000 tv and pay 5% sales tax (whatever it may be).
Romney - Income 20 million a year, buy a $1000 tv and pay a 5% sales tax.

Who paid more of a percentage of their income to the sales tax?


Then poor people shouldn't buy $1000 TVs, should they? See, that's the problem with the poor in America. They think they have a right to have the same things the fiscally responsible have. And that's how you get underwater mcmansions, rising credit card debt, and the collapse of any number of financial markets--because poor people got involved, and thought they were entitled to keep up with the Joneses.

Guess what poor people? You're only on par with your betters in one simple way: you get to cast a ballot in November. Maybe if you people would wake up and spend some time understanding your place in the world, you wouldn't get into so much trouble with the law and finances. But now, you'll of course cast your ballot for the person you think will continue your entitlements, take away from those who have and bestow it upon the have-nots, thereby justifying every one of your bad life decisions by making you 'equal'. And when you ruin those things, just like you ruin everything else you touch, you'll come howling for more, because of course, you're entitled to the fruit of others labors. Is 'earn' even in your vocabulary?
 
2012-07-11 12:04:55 PM  

jcooli09: The real question is how does it compare to the number of jobs he destroyed at Bain Capital. My guess is poorly.


Bain capital wouldn't exist if it simply destroyed every company it ever came across. I dont think you really have any idea what Bain does.
 
2012-07-11 12:06:03 PM  
FTFA: Romney had an effective rate of 13.9 percent in 2010 and 15.4 percent in 2011

That is a .4 percentage point lie!
 
2012-07-11 12:06:58 PM  

o5iiawah: jcooli09: The real question is how does it compare to the number of jobs he destroyed at Bain Capital. My guess is poorly.

Bain capital wouldn't exist if it simply destroyed every company it ever came across. I dont think you really have any idea what Bain does.


As long as Bain made a profit in the destruction they would continue exist. The "Free Market" is completely and utterly amoral. Destruction can be rewarded as highly as creation.
 
2012-07-11 12:07:14 PM  

skullkrusher: the "many" I can dig. Paying less than an entire quintile of taxpayers can legitimately be called "many".
It's the "much less" part that is a little iffy for me.


I totally see where you're coming from. That, however is a depate on opinion related to semantics, and not a "fact check."

That's my biggest problem with all these asinine "fact check" articles. None of them actually concern themselves with the facts. Most of them do exactly what this one does: "All the facts he uses are correct, but I disagree with his conclusion."

That's not a "fact-checking" it's an Op-Ed.
 
2012-07-11 12:07:29 PM  

o5iiawah: jcooli09: The real question is how does it compare to the number of jobs he destroyed at Bain Capital. My guess is poorly.

Bain capital wouldn't exist if it simply destroyed every company it ever came across. I dont think you really have any idea what Bain does.


Destroying (American) jobs != destroying a company. I don't think you can really read.
 
2012-07-11 12:08:40 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Romney having enough extra money lying around to donate doesn't really change the fact that he paid only a 15% tax rate.
fark, from the article, it says that without the donation, he'd have been paying 19%. Isn't that still less than most middle class Americans?


If you read the article, no.
 
2012-07-11 12:09:41 PM  
Bain bought struggling companies and tried to turn them around. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

It was very likely that if Bain hadn't taken over those companies, they would have failed on their own anyways.

Its not like Romney took perfectly healthy companies and ran them into the ground for fun and profit.
 
2012-07-11 12:09:41 PM  
Bullshiat?

Yeah, Romney paid less than 15%.

On risk free income to boot all while setting up a 100 million dollar trust fund for his kids and a 100 million IRA for himself and his wife.

And he's campaigning on policies designed to create even larger wealth inequality than already exists in the US and you kids are already back to pre-Great Depression levels there.

TL,DR?

Worst. Candidate. EVAH.
 
2012-07-11 12:10:48 PM  
FTA:Effective Tax Rates (also including payroll tax paid by employer)

Bottom 20 percent (0-$17,000): 1 percent

Second 20 Percent ($17,000-$33,500): 7.8 percent

Middle 20 percent ($33,500-59,500): 15.5 percent


Last time I check 15.5% is larger than around 14%
 
2012-07-11 12:11:40 PM  

coeyagi: Newsflash: My degree-earning sister made $30,000 in farking LA because that is what someone with her degree made right out of school.

You really should check some stats - there are plenty of degree earners who make less than 50K right out of school and for several years. In fact, the word I would use is "most".


And my degree-earning brother made jack shiat, because he is chronically unemployed. But the plural of anecdote is not data... and that's another poor comparison, since A: people just out of college tend to make less than the average in their field, and B: people just out of college tend to struggle to make ends meet for a few years. It also helps if they get useful degrees, rather than artistic ones. Not that BA's aren't useful, but they don't have the same payscale.
 
2012-07-11 12:11:46 PM  

kronicfeld: FTFA: Romney had an effective rate of 13.9 percent in 2010 and 15.4 percent in 2011

That is a .4 percentage point lie!


And that's only counting money he doesn't have hidden/sheltered in foreign accounts. The real number is probably much lower.
 
2012-07-11 12:11:54 PM  

The Homer Tax: I can't speak for all middle-class people. But I effectively paid a whole farkload more than 15% in taxes on my income last year. I am part of the "many" mentioned in Obama's accurate tweet.


If you effectively paid a whole farkload more than 15% in income taxes last year, you are either counting social security, or are in the highest quintile of earners. Or you owe your accountant a cock punch.
 
2012-07-11 12:11:59 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: As long as Bain made a profit in the destruction they would continue exist. The "Free Market" is completely and utterly amoral. Destruction can be rewarded as highly as creation.


Bain only makes profit when a company succeeds and they can take an ownership stake. you forget that the owner of the failing company only goes to Bain as a last resort anyways. the company would fail regardless.

Go ask people who work for Staples and sports authority who kept their homes and health insurance and sent their kids to college what they think of Bain.

Again, I really dont think you understand what Bain does or how a market works.
 
2012-07-11 12:13:30 PM  

The Homer Tax: skullkrusher: the "many" I can dig. Paying less than an entire quintile of taxpayers can legitimately be called "many".
It's the "much less" part that is a little iffy for me.

I totally see where you're coming from. That, however is a depate on opinion related to semantics, and not a "fact check."

That's my biggest problem with all these asinine "fact check" articles. None of them actually concern themselves with the facts. Most of them do exactly what this one does: "All the facts he uses are correct, but I disagree with his conclusion."

That's not a "fact-checking" it's an Op-Ed.


they gotta print something I suppose. :)
 
2012-07-11 12:14:06 PM  

rosebud_the_sled: The tithing done to the Mormon Church is the same as fees paid to Scientology. LDS is one of the largest land owners - if not the largest land owner - in the US. Everything they do is for profit.


I'm no fan of either cult, but you're wrong on both counts: LDS demands 10% of a follower's income, same as Islam and the Catholic Church. Scientology works on an a la carte basis, charging (ever-increasing) fees for auditing sessions.

Also, LDS doesn't even show up on a list of land-owners in the US. They're not even the biggest land-owner in Utah. The Federal government holds that position in both the state and the country.

It's been a while since I've seen the list private of land-owners in the US, but Ted Turner is #6 from what I remember.
 
2012-07-11 12:14:10 PM  

DarwiOdrade: skullkrusher: Arkanaut: But it is technically correct. THE BEST KIND OF CORRECT.

the "many" I can dig. Paying less than an entire quintile of taxpayers can legitimately be called "many".
It's the "much less" part that is a little iffy for me.

Weasel words are weasel words for a weason.


you calling the President a weasel? Them's fighting words. Here, fight my ferret.
 
2012-07-11 12:15:49 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: rosebud_the_sled: The tithing done to the Mormon Church is the same as fees paid to Scientology. LDS is one of the largest land owners - if not the largest land owner - in the US. Everything they do is for profit.

I'm no fan of either cult, but you're wrong on both counts: LDS demands 10% of a follower's income, same as Islam and the Catholic Church. Scientology works on an a la carte basis, charging (ever-increasing) fees for auditing sessions.

Also, LDS doesn't even show up on a list of land-owners in the US. They're not even the biggest land-owner in Utah. The Federal government holds that position in both the state and the country.

It's been a while since I've seen the list private of land-owners in the US, but Ted Turner is #6 from what I remember.


I believe Ted has moved up. He was the largest private land owner until last year.
 
2012-07-11 12:16:14 PM  

o5iiawah: Bain only makes profit when a company succeeds and they can take an ownership stake.


Um, no they don't.

There's very little risk in what Bain does. The make money regardless of whether a company fails or succeeds, as they sell off parts of companies that fail and take ownership stake in companies that succeed.

I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that is what it is.
 
2012-07-11 12:17:44 PM  

Lollipop165: I'm not saying that's bad


I am.

They are the worst of the worst that capitalism produces.
 
2012-07-11 12:17:49 PM  

EatHam: If you effectively paid a whole farkload more than 15% in income taxes last year, you are either counting social security, or are in the highest quintile of earners. Or you owe your accountant a cock punch.


There's no part of the highest quintile of earners that is middle class anymore?

Beacuse the GOP is telling me that you can make over $250k and still be considered "middle class."

That's really part of the basis of this discussion, isn't it? The notion of what the "middle class" is can't really be bracketed by absolute income values. The notion that someone in the 80th percentile of earners and someone in the 95 percentile of earners make even close to the same amount of money and therefore should be considered in the same "class" is laughable.

Also, why shouldn't I count Social Security? Did that stop being a tax at some point?
 
2012-07-11 12:18:03 PM  
So if you take into account the accrued interest from the front-loaded debentures of his off-shore holdings (see note 3.c on page 27 and Appendix L for a table of weighted rating of future earnings under the Smoot-Harley Act of 1934) and factor in non-salaried compensation for in-kind charitable donations, Romney actually pays more than the average American in taxes as a percentage of gross pro-rated income and Sarah Palin is ex post facto President of Alaska.

So please, stop talking about this.
 
2012-07-11 12:18:31 PM  

o5iiawah: Bain only makes profit when a company succeeds and they can take an ownership stake.


This is completely untrue. Bain was able to profit in many ways from companies that failed, not least of which by extracting large "management fees" from the struggling firm.
 
2012-07-11 12:19:21 PM  

palelizard: Glenn Beck Knows a Strawman: Ok.... the point he was trying to make is this:

You - Income 50K a year, buy a $1000 tv and pay 5% sales tax (whatever it may be).
Romney - Income 20 million a year, buy a $1000 tv and pay a 5% sales tax.

Who paid more of a percentage of their income to the sales tax?

Then poor people shouldn't buy $1000 TVs, should they? See, that's the problem with the poor in America. They think they have a right to have the same things the fiscally responsible have. And that's how you get underwater mcmansions, rising credit card debt, and the collapse of any number of financial markets--because poor people got involved, and thought they were entitled to keep up with the Joneses.

Guess what poor people? You're only on par with your betters in one simple way: you get to cast a ballot in November. Maybe if you people would wake up and spend some time understanding your place in the world, you wouldn't get into so much trouble with the law and finances. But now, you'll of course cast your ballot for the person you think will continue your entitlements, take away from those who have and bestow it upon the have-nots, thereby justifying every one of your bad life decisions by making you 'equal'. And when you ruin those things, just like you ruin everything else you touch, you'll come howling for more, because of course, you're entitled to the fruit of others labors. Is 'earn' even in your vocabulary?


Ummm... what the hell are you talking about? This is either a very dumb troll or you really need to think. I mean 50,000 dollars a year is now poor? This is where you started off?

Also why did you change the subject of the previous line of discussion?
 
2012-07-11 12:19:27 PM  

o5iiawah: Bain only makes profit when a company succeeds and they can take an ownership stake


LOL
 
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