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(MSNBC)   Spain to try the "we can't afford socialism anymore, so lets get rid of all of it" austerity measures. Sure, cutting back a few years ago would have helped, but doing it now is like a smoker in Stage 4 lung cancer deciding to quit   (worldnews.msnbc.msn.com) divider line 148
    More: Asinine, Spain, stage, austerity measures, bad debts, Jean-Claude Juncker, EU summit, bond markets  
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4296 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2012 at 8:21 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-11 08:25:49 AM  
We also would have accepted "Spain grows up" as a suitable headline.
 
2012-07-11 08:26:04 AM  
Well; it was nice knowing you guys. We're all doomed; doomed, Dooooooooooooooooooom!!!!

/ let's all sing the doom song
 
2012-07-11 08:27:35 AM  
Subby doesn't sound very bootstrappy. Maybe he/she could learn a thing or two from how Spain recovers from a crisis.
 
2012-07-11 08:29:28 AM  
Those union ran socialist parties are the worse, too!
 
2012-07-11 08:29:29 AM  
FTFA: Spain's unemployment rate is more than 24 percent overall and 50 percent for young people. ... Other measures outlined Wednesday included: changes to unemployment benefits designed to encourage jobless people to seek work quickly.

I can't see any other outcome to this budget than riots in the streets.
 
2012-07-11 08:32:31 AM  
Austerity has no historical track record of success during an economic downturn, much less a depression. Good luck with that, Europe.
 
2012-07-11 08:32:33 AM  

Carth: FTFA: Spain's unemployment rate is more than 24 percent overall and 50 percent for young people. ... Other measures outlined Wednesday included: changes to unemployment benefits designed to encourage jobless people to seek work quickly.

I can't see any other outcome to this budget than riots in the streets.


Especially since their new President won the last election because he promised that he would NEVER raise taxes on the middle-class to bail out the Spanish banks.

I mean, thank God we all know that Spaniards are calm, rational people, not particularly given to hotheadedness, Phew.
 
2012-07-11 08:34:12 AM  

Carth: FTFA: Spain's unemployment rate is more than 24 percent overall and 50 percent for young people. ... Other measures outlined Wednesday included: changes to unemployment benefits designed to encourage jobless people to seek work quickly.

I can't see any other outcome to this budget than riots in the streets.


add some bulls, and it will be a good party.
 
2012-07-11 08:34:18 AM  
Trashing your GDP to create growth and increase revenues has always worked before. It ought to work now, especially in a country where 20% of the country is unemployed.
 
2012-07-11 08:35:41 AM  
More like a vegan diagnosed with colon cancer who decides to treat it by smoking four packs a day.
 
2012-07-11 08:36:03 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?
 
2012-07-11 08:36:41 AM  
Once again, insolvent banks get a bailout, everyone else gets stuck with the bill.
 
2012-07-11 08:37:05 AM  
More like a guy who's been walking around with an arrow in his chest for a few years, looking down and deciding "you know, I was near a hospital when I got shot, but now seems like as good a time as any to pull this out."
 
2012-07-11 08:38:10 AM  
Austerity is working so well in Greece.
 
2012-07-11 08:39:07 AM  

PlatinumDragon: Once again, insolvent banks get a bailout, everyone else gets stuck with the bill.


This.
 
2012-07-11 08:40:32 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?


I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.
 
2012-07-11 08:41:26 AM  
This will in no way get out of hand by winter
 
2012-07-11 08:45:12 AM  

Zeno-25: Austerity Socialism has no historical track record of success during an economic downturn, much less a depression. Good luck with that, Europe America.


I fixed your typos.
 
2012-07-11 08:47:00 AM  

Bullseyed: Zeno-25: Austerity Socialism has no historical track record of success during an economic downturn, much less a depression. Good luck with that, Europe America.

I fixed your typos.


Good thing nobody is attempting to implement socialism then, isn't it?
 
2012-07-11 08:47:21 AM  

GAT_00: Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?

I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.


Because the market believes that they can pay their debts back. Same with the US.

Spain, Italy, Greece et al, unable to print money and hamstrung by inefficient economies, no longer have the credibility to borrow at low rates.

Austerity makes more sense when you have to fund deficits with higher borrowing rates than when you can fund with low rates.
low rates.
 
2012-07-11 08:47:41 AM  

zerkalo: This will in no way get out of hand by winter


Winter is Coming...

/Does Spain have a king anymore?
 
2012-07-11 08:48:06 AM  
Well I never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music
Say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it
The don't abuse it
Never gonna lose it
I can't refuse it

//That's all I got
 
2012-07-11 08:48:51 AM  

jakomo002: Carth: FTFA: Spain's unemployment rate is more than 24 percent overall and 50 percent for young people. ... Other measures outlined Wednesday included: changes to unemployment benefits designed to encourage jobless people to seek work quickly.

I can't see any other outcome to this budget than riots in the streets.

Especially since their new President won the last election because he promised that he would NEVER raise taxes on the middle-class to bail out the Spanish banks.

I mean, thank God we all know that Spaniards are calm, rational people, not particularly given to hotheadedness, Phew.


"Would you take my word as an Espaniard?"

"No good. I've known too many Spaniards."
 
2012-07-11 08:49:08 AM  
Sounds like we need another world war to get the production sector going again.
 
2012-07-11 08:49:50 AM  
See, the problem is that so many people are dependent on the Spanish government, but they're facing a lot of pressure from the Germans to cut their spending. The Spanish government, now that Francisco Franco is finally dead, is too weak to just cast their weak and elderly to the wolves. But you know who does have a strong government willing to do whatever it takes to get debt under control? The Germans. Why not just cut out the middle man and just let the Germans "get rid of" their disabled and elderly? If the Spanish did it to themselves everybody would be horrified. But if the Germans did it, people would just be like, "Hey, it's the Germans. What did you expect?"
 
2012-07-11 08:50:04 AM  
I would love it if some pro-austerity people would game this out for us. How exactly is this going to lead to economic recovery?
 
2012-07-11 08:50:30 AM  

Bullseyed: Zeno-25: Austerity Socialism has no historical track record of success during an economic downturn, much less a depression. Good luck with that, Europe America.

I fixed your typos.


Since there are about 10 socialist states in the world and, none of them even have collective ownership, I think you can stop hiding from the scary socialist boogyman.
 
2012-07-11 08:51:51 AM  

Itstoearly: Sounds like we need another world war to get the production sector going again.


We don't have the manufacturing base to support a world war like we did in the 30s and 40s. Maybe if we fight somewhere in Asia we could out sourse tank production to China to keep up with demand.
 
2012-07-11 08:52:15 AM  

GAT_00: Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?

I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.


I don't even think Belgium is over 100%. Netherlands is around half of Belgium and Luxembourg is probably half that again.

That said, I have no clue about Japan... are they really that bad off??
 
2012-07-11 08:55:37 AM  

Itstoearly: Sounds like we need another world war to get the production sector going again.


Bring down some of that pesky youth unemployment as well!
 
2012-07-11 08:55:56 AM  
But when we can't afford capitalism anymore, we bail out the thieves though, right?
 
2012-07-11 08:57:05 AM  
t1.gstatic.com
 
2012-07-11 08:57:17 AM  
"This is the reality. There is no other and we have to get out of this hole and we have to do it as soon as possible and there is no room for fantasies or off-the cuff improvisations because there is no choice."

Hmmmm....
No room for fantasies. When it is time to 'pay up', reality bites.
 
2012-07-11 08:58:44 AM  
That's what Spain gets for trying to masquerade as a real western nation. The mooslim train bombings gave them delusions of credibility, but bin laden's plan simply played out more quickly and effectively for Spain.

/Remember, Osama's GOOOOOAAAAALLLLLLLL! was to bankrupt the usa and allies.
//Achivement unlocked.
 
2012-07-11 08:59:27 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: GAT_00: Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?

I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.

Because the market believes that they can pay their debts back. Same with the US.

Spain, Italy, Greece et al, unable to print money and hamstrung by inefficient economies, no longer have the credibility to borrow at low rates.

Austerity makes more sense when you have to fund deficits with higher borrowing rates than when you can fund with low rates.
low rates.


People don't believe they can pay it off because the media keeps saying they can't pay it off. Media actually matters a lot for economies, because it really is perception driven, more than demand driven, because perception drives demand.
 
2012-07-11 09:00:28 AM  

Slives: zerkalo: This will in no way get out of hand by winter

Winter is Coming...

/Does Spain have a king anymore?

1.bp.blogspot.com
They got a general but he's still dead.
 
2012-07-11 09:00:56 AM  

netcentric: "This is the reality. There is no other and we have to get out of this hole and we have to do it as soon as possible and there is no room for fantasies or off-the cuff improvisations because there is no choice."

Hmmmm....
No room for fantasies. When it is time to 'pay up', reality bites.


I'm certain the world banksters will step up with a hefty loan package to "bail out" the poor suffering nation. They'll do it out of kindness and because paying of debt with more debt is the only rational solution. What should actually happen is that the Spanish police should round up all bankers in Spain and kill them.
That would go a long way toward solving this problem.
 
2012-07-11 09:01:01 AM  

Aarontology: Austerity is working so well in Greece.


That would be true if Greece actually had implemented any austerity measure. Instead, they kept their expenditure level and refuse to do anything about their own problem, and still they blame their own problems on the Germans. Go figure.
 
2012-07-11 09:02:27 AM  

digistil: GAT_00: Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?

I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.

I don't even think Belgium is over 100%. Netherlands is around half of Belgium and Luxembourg is probably half that again.

That said, I have no clue about Japan... are they really that bad off??


The Benelux was off the top of my head. I am certain about Japan, and the listing on Wiki, via the IMF, confirms it.

Japan is by far the highest in the world. Wonder where I got the Benelux numbers from.
 
2012-07-11 09:03:21 AM  
There is nothing wrong with democratic socialism, as long as the government doesn't spend more than it earns from taxing. Which is usually what they end up doing.

And the ironic thing is, if I remember correctly, Spain's socialist party came into power because of Spain's involvement in the Iraq war.
 
2012-07-11 09:03:42 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?


I think that their public debt to GDP was about 65% before everything went to hell (but I can't remember off the top of my head). The crisis in Spain is mostly due to a tremendous bubble in the construction sector popping, causing a large recession, crippling the economy, and worst of all, putting their national banks in jeopardy. Of all of the PIIGS, I actually kinda feel bad for Spain. Their government seemed to have had their act together, a bit.

Fun little toy
 
2012-07-11 09:04:04 AM  

Aarontology: Austerity is working so well in Greece.


Austerity wont work at all. The problem with it is that there remains the fundamental belief that a social safety net is needed.

Cutting out all welfare, taxes across the board, and eliminating many public sector jobs, along with tweaking their economic engine will do far more for them in the long run.

But that's not gonna happen. They're going to learn nothing from Japan and the lost decade. Its massive nationwide derp.

///Slashies so I wont get hammered for this later, the reason the above will work is because you want an accumulation of capital to be reinvested in the economy, which will provide more jobs.
 
2012-07-11 09:05:06 AM  

Mantour: [t1.gstatic.com image 251x201]


Is that Mel Gibson?
 
2012-07-11 09:06:07 AM  
If I was overspending and had massive credit card debt, would it be bad to stop spending so much and live within my means? Why do people think this is bad for a country to do?

Would me running out and spending more on my credit cards somehow make me solvent?
 
2012-07-11 09:06:22 AM  

TaxiDriver: Well I never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music
Say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it
The don't abuse it
Never gonna lose it
I can't refuse it

//That's all I got


Came in here to post this, nice to know someone else would have caught the reference.

/feels so good.
//it feels so good.
 
2012-07-11 09:06:50 AM  

maggoo: That would be true if Greece actually had implemented any austerity measure. Instead, they kept their expenditure level and refuse to do anything about their own problem, and still they blame their own problems on the Germans. Go figure.


There were a lot measures implemented as conditions for some of those German bailouts.

Diogenes The Cynic: Austerity wont work at all. The problem with it is that there remains the fundamental belief that a social safety net is needed.

Cutting out all welfare, taxes across the board, and eliminating many public sector jobs, along with tweaking their economic engine will do far more for them in the long run.


How, exactly will that work? We keep hearing that those measures are necessary, but nobody ever explains how that will result in a revitalized economy. You're talking about drastically increasing unemployment by eliminating a lot of those jobs and pulling a hell of a lot of money right out of the economy by eliminating a lot of those programs. That's a huge shock for an economy to take.
 
2012-07-11 09:07:59 AM  

Diogenes The Cynic: Aarontology: Austerity is working so well in Greece.

Austerity wont work at all. The problem with it is that there remains the fundamental belief that a social safety net is needed.

Cutting out all welfare, taxes across the board, and eliminating many public sector jobs, along with tweaking their economic engine will do far more for them in the long run.

But that's not gonna happen. They're going to learn nothing from Japan and the lost decade. Its massive nationwide derp.

///Slashies so I wont get hammered for this later, the reason the above will work is because you want an accumulation of capital to be reinvested in the economy, which will provide more jobs.


How many more police do you have to employ to handle the people rioting in the streets with no job and willing to burn down government buildings? Do you build the new prisons before or after you cut all social programs?
 
2012-07-11 09:09:05 AM  
Also in the case of Greece, one of their problems is that they didn't really collect a lot of taxes. They had high rates sure, but very little in the way of a collection mechanism.
 
2012-07-11 09:09:57 AM  
They could have done what the old lady that lived next door to me did. She was a pack a day smoker all her life. When the Dr told her she had cancer, she just kept on smoking. Her reasoning was it was too late to turn things around and she wanted to enjoy her last few months.
 
2012-07-11 09:10:22 AM  

GAT_00: digistil: GAT_00: Wendy's Chili: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Spain have a debt to GDP ratio lower than that of the UK and France before the banks went to shiat?

I don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but this whole thing is a created crisis. The Benelux countries are both over 120% IIRC and Japan is at 220% of GDP. Yet nobody thinks their debt to GDP ratio is too high.

I don't even think Belgium is over 100%. Netherlands is around half of Belgium and Luxembourg is probably half that again.

That said, I have no clue about Japan... are they really that bad off??

The Benelux was off the top of my head. I am certain about Japan, and the listing on Wiki, via the IMF, confirms it.

Japan is by far the highest in the world. Wonder where I got the Benelux numbers from.


Just Google'd it... Zimbabwe beats Japan, but you're definitely right about Japan being in the 200s.

CIA World Factbook
 
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