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(CBS DC)   Well, this professor's going to have awkward faculty meetings for a while   (washington.cbslocal.com) divider line 69
    More: Interesting, LGBT parenting, faculty, meetings, social support, representative samples  
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8267 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Jul 2012 at 4:56 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-10 02:20:50 PM  
FTA: "Although the findings reported herein may be explicable in part by a variety of forces uniquely problematic for child development in lesbian and gay families-including a lack of social support for parents, stress exposure resulting from persistent stigma, and modest or absent legal security for their parental and romantic relationship statuses-the empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go," Regnerus said in the study.
 
2012-07-10 02:49:29 PM  
Study group is 18 to 39 years old. I can guess the older study participants had a harder time, but norms are changing.
 
2012-07-10 03:09:10 PM  

Bontesla: FTA: "Although the findings reported herein may be explicable in part by a variety of forces uniquely problematic for child development in lesbian and gay families-including a lack of social support for parents, stress exposure resulting from persistent stigma, and modest or absent legal security for their parental and romantic relationship statuses-the empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go," Regnerus said in the study.


All other things being equal, sure, but ALL OTHER THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL YOU ASSBAGS!
 
2012-07-10 03:09:42 PM  
Well I can certainly imagine life being tough for a kid who grows up being told that his parents' relationship is immoral.
 
2012-07-10 03:10:42 PM  

simplicimus: Study group is 18 to 39 years old. I can guess the older study participants had a harder time, but norms are changing.


They are. Do this study again in 20 years now that gay marriage is becoming acceptable, and the results will be quite different.
 
2012-07-10 03:14:53 PM  
The NFSS interviewed just under 3000 respondents, including 175 who reported their mother having had a same-sex romantic relationship and 73 who said the same about their father.

Anyone else notice the complete failure of this study?

Hint- A parent that had a same sex romantic relationship is not the same as living in a same sex couple led family. So unless I'm missreading this, the guy is a clown.
 
2012-07-10 03:32:08 PM  
I'm looking at the actual study. I'm no expert but I'm having trouble with the numbers, they don't seem to correlate with statistics from other sources.

Ever touched sexually by parent or adult caregiver? 2% raised by intact biological parents sounds low, 6% raised by gay male parent, but 23% raised by gay female parent? That's just too high. The gay families also seem to be inclusive of non-intact gay parents and gay parents who were divorced from a previous heterosexual partner. I'd like to see that normalized for children raised by intact gay parent couples.

I don't think this study will survive peer review.
 
2012-07-10 04:06:25 PM  

simplicimus: but norms are changing.


Exactly. Kids in that environment probably were raised differently than they would be now. For example, some of the defense mechanisms employed by somebody trying to keep their relationship secret from their community would probably negatively impact a child's social development.
 
2012-07-10 04:11:05 PM  
 
2012-07-10 05:02:34 PM  
Quack researcher has quack study with quack results. Expect a followup in 6 months about him being fired.
 
2012-07-10 05:03:57 PM  

make me some tea: Well I can certainly imagine life being tough for a kid who grows up being told that his parents' relationship is immoral.


This.
The study set out to find a biased result and found it because people are biased against any non-nuclear family.

/it would certainly be nice if everyone could grow up with a mom and dad.
/but that's just unrealistic.
/stop writing statisticals for bigots.
 
2012-07-10 05:04:04 PM  

Dinki: Oh, and a little bit about the author - Looks like he went into the study with an agenda and got the results he was looking for.


Remember, wrongthink will be punished!
 
2012-07-10 05:13:56 PM  
Step 1: Throw all variables into a statistical garbage can and run every test you can think of.
Step 2: Cherry-pick statistically (but not practically significant) findings.
Step 3: PROFIT!
 
2012-07-10 05:19:37 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Dinki: Oh, and a little bit about the author - Looks like he went into the study with an agenda and got the results he was looking for.

Remember, wrongthink will be punished!



I see what you tried to do there, but that only applies if the facts support you and you're not the one trying to do the reality-bending to force the narrative to conform to your agenda - you know, what this researcher himself appears to be trying to do here. He's got quite the agenda. Did you click on the link?
 
2012-07-10 05:24:25 PM  

Tarkus: Ever touched sexually by parent or adult caregiver? 2% raised by intact biological parents sounds low,


Two percent sounds LOW!?

Are you high?
 
2012-07-10 05:24:44 PM  
"Adults raised by same sex couples worse off"

They probably are but the real question is why?

Are they worse off because they see society treat their parents like crap, deny them rights, and outright tell them they're worthless human beings? That tends to hurt a person growing up.
 
2012-07-10 05:30:04 PM  
It seems like the results have more to say about society and it's inability to grow the fark up about same sex parents than it does about their parenting abilities.

For some reason reading this made me think about the people who argue that legalizing pot would lead to a crime wave because a lot of crime is associated with the drug trade. It correlates two things while completely glossing over the root cause of the issue.
 
2012-07-10 05:34:51 PM  
The only way i can see it having an effect is if the parents deprive them of any meaningful contact with the other sex during developmental periods. They should have a male or female representative in their lives, or of course they'll be a little screwed up when dealing with them later in life.
 
2012-07-10 05:41:41 PM  

Dinki: The NFSS interviewed just under 3000 respondents, including 175 who reported their mother having had a same-sex romantic relationship and 73 who said the same about their father.

Anyone else notice the complete failure of this study?

Hint- A parent that had a same sex romantic relationship is not the same as living in a same sex couple led family. So unless I'm missreading this, the guy is a clown.


I don't think you're misreading it. The categories in the paper:

1.
IBF: Lived in intact biological family (with mother and father) from 0 to 18, and parents are still married at present (N = 919).
2.
LM: R reported R's mother had a same-sex romantic (lesbian) relationship with a woman, regardless of any other household transitions (N = 163).
3.
GF: R reported R's father had a same-sex romantic (gay) relationship with a man, regardless of any other household transitions (N = 73).
4.
Adopted: R was adopted by one or two strangers at birth or before age 2 (N = 101).
5.
Divorced later or had joint custody: R reported living with biological mother and father from birth to age 18, but parents are not married at present (N = 116).
6.
Stepfamily: Biological parents were either never married or else divorced, and R's primary custodial parent was married to someone else before R turned 18 (N = 394).
7.
Single parent: Biological parents were either never married or else divorced, and R's primary custodial parent did not marry (or remarry) before R turned 18 (N = 816).
8.
All others: Includes all other family structure/event combinations, such as respondents with a deceased parent (N = 406).


He goes on to say that since these categories are clearly not mutually exclusive: "For example, a respondent whose mother had a same-sex relationship might also qualify in Group 5 or Group 7, but in this case my analytical interest is in maximizing the sample size of Groups 2 and 3 so the respondent would be placed in Group 2 (LMs)."

My reading would seem to suggest that "my father left my mother for a man" would get coded as "gay father", which in turn seems to have been mangled by the press release or the author into "raised by same-sex parents". Seems either disingenuous or stupid.
 
2012-07-10 05:54:15 PM  
Can we teach statistics in high school yet so that these people stop gaining traction with this bullshiat?

And maybe some basic logic too?

Not that we should have to cut out any math to fit those in in the first place, but understanding how things work might serve our population a little better than extra practice doing calculations. I don't think a quarter has gone by without having to explain to at least one person about correlation and causation, third variables, etc, and yet all of these people managed to graduate high school and often have a four year degree. What's up with that?
 
2012-07-10 05:54:57 PM  
wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.
 
2012-07-10 05:58:11 PM  

GF named my lft testicle thundercles: wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.


After applying some scrutiny to your post and your profile, I've concluded that there is a 99.9% chance you are a troll.

"2012-07-05"

Good day sir.

/I said good day.
 
2012-07-10 06:00:15 PM  

doglover: Tarkus: Ever touched sexually by parent or adult caregiver? 2% raised by intact biological parents sounds low,

Two percent sounds LOW!?

Are you high?


Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

To the topic:
The only problems I had growing up with a gay mom were caused by intolerant farktards who would pick on me, tell me my mom was an abomination, suggest that I should be taken away and put in foster care so I wouldn't be turned into a lesbian by her, and otherwise did their level best to make me feel like shiat and hate my mom.

I wonder what a study about kids raised by intolerant farkheads would show?.
 
2012-07-10 06:00:56 PM  

sneakynotsneaky: My reading would seem to suggest that "my father left my mother for a man" would get coded as "gay father", which in turn seems to have been mangled by the press release or the author into "raised by same-sex parents". Seems either disingenuous or stupid.


A little from column A, a little from column B...
 
2012-07-10 06:02:17 PM  

Smackledorfer: GF named my lft testicle thundercles: wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.

After applying some scrutiny to your post and your profile, I've concluded that there is a 99.9% chance you are a troll.

"2012-07-05"

Good day sir.

/I said good day.




Says the person who ignores the suggested point, changes the subject, and attacks the messenger.
 
2012-07-10 06:02:20 PM  
Results of study: They are worse off because too many people are dicks.

Crowds of dicks' reply: SEE!?
 
2012-07-10 06:05:24 PM  

metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.


So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.
 
2012-07-10 06:08:07 PM  

fickenchucker: Smackledorfer: GF named my lft testicle thundercles: wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.

After applying some scrutiny to your post and your profile, I've concluded that there is a 99.9% chance you are a troll.

"2012-07-05"

Good day sir.

/I said good day.



Says the person who ignores the suggested point, changes the subject, and attacks the messenger.


Where is your commentary on the point, why aren't you discussing the subject at hand, and why are you attacking me instead of addressing those things?
 
2012-07-10 06:10:45 PM  

doglover: metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.


Counterpoint:

Link
 
2012-07-10 06:13:26 PM  

fickenchucker: Smackledorfer: GF named my lft testicle thundercles: wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.

After applying some scrutiny to your post and your profile, I've concluded that there is a 99.9% chance you are a troll.

"2012-07-05"

Good day sir.

/I said good day.



Says the person who ignores the suggested point, changes the subject, and attacks the messenger.


I'll address the point:

Yes, it deserves rigorous study. Key word being rigorous. From the fine article it seems like there were numerous weaknesses in how the study was conducted and how questions were asked - the study lacked methodological rigor. Further, there is a noted weakness in how the results were presented, which also denotes a lack of rigor wheat comes to either the researcher or the reporter doing their job in summarizing.

So, the "hate" in this thread is being aimed - quite appropriately - at a research study with sloppy methodology and sloppy analysis, a summary of the results presented in a way that no reputable scientist would do with such obviously weak data, and possibly sensationalized by a lousy reporter.

I do social psych research (and public health research) myself and I cannot tell you how absolutely farking maddening it is to see sloppy work gain traction because one side or another wants to push an agenda. It makes it very, very difficult for real work to get done.
 
2012-07-10 06:15:38 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: wow, alot of hate in this thread. i dont get it. It seems like this subject does deserve rigorous scrutiny.


It deserves no scrutiny at all. Traditional marriage is crumbling, and any two parent partnership is becoming rarer and rarer. This is a distraction.
 
2012-07-10 06:16:30 PM  

doglover: metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.


Do a modicum of research on the subject. No, seriously, do it. You'll be depressed or enraged for the rest of the day at least.
 
2012-07-10 06:18:24 PM  

doglover: metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.


You lack reading comprehension. The question was "touched in a sexual way by a parent or caregiver."

People responding may have been referring to sexual contact made by a parent OR someone in a caregiving capacity.

And yes, more than 2 out of 100 kids have been touched in what they feel to be a sexual fashion by either a parent OR someone in a caregiving capacity (daycare, babysitter, other responsible adult, teacher, clergy, camp counselor, coach, etc and so on).
 
2012-07-10 06:24:43 PM  
And, as some people here have pointed out, that number is probably low for parental sexual abuse. I am not going to bother finding citations because I won't want to get, as blahpers says, enraged or depressed just to prove a point on Fark.

I will say, in one study of teens I was involved in, more than half of them reported being subject to unwanted sexual advances or comments from people in caregiving roles, and over 10% of them endorsed having actually been touched in appropriately by caregivers. And this was a study with entirely a male population, and males are notoriously less likely to report being sexually abused, so it's likely the number would have been higher.

And I can tell you, it was a farking joy to go in to work on that study every day. Ugh.
 
2012-07-10 06:26:26 PM  

Smackledorfer: doglover: metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.

Counterpoint:

Link


The US Department of Health and Human Services reported 83,600 substantiated reports of sexually abused children in 2005.

US population: 296M 25 percent of those under 18.... about 74,000,000.Link

Even rounding up to an even 100,000 to include unreported attacks doesn't yield a full percentage point.
 
2012-07-10 06:27:04 PM  
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2008/02/11/us-population-projections-2005-2 050/
 
2012-07-10 06:37:57 PM  
You do know that a lot of cases of sexual abuse do not ever get reported to the authorities, right?

In every study I have worked on we have received certificates of confidentiality from various government agencies that allow our interviewers to bypass mandatory reporter requirements except in cases where we believe there is an immediate and ongoing risk to our participant, in order to encourage participants to answer honestly.

Many young people don't report incidents that happened only once, years ago. Many don't report current incidents because they believe they will get in trouble or it will become known to their peers and they will suffer some other consequences from reporting. Even with our confidentiality certificates (which mean we can tell law enforcement to fark off or refuse a subpoena of participant records), many people will refuse to report incidents that are known to have happened from reports from other sources.

I know it's not comfortable to believe, and hey, believe whatever you want about it of it makes you happier. I'm done working for the day so I'm gonna peace out rather than continue to argue about it.
 
2012-07-10 06:38:53 PM  

metztli: And, as some people here have pointed out, that number is probably low for parental sexual abuse. I am not going to bother finding citations because I won't want to get, as blahpers says, enraged or depressed just to prove a point on Fark.

I will say, in one study of teens I was involved in, more than half of them reported being subject to unwanted sexual advances or comments from people in caregiving roles, and over 10% of them endorsed having actually been touched in appropriately by caregivers. And this was a study with entirely a male population, and males are notoriously less likely to report being sexually abused, so it's likely the number would have been higher.

And I can tell you, it was a farking joy to go in to work on that study every day. Ugh.



i45.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-10 06:45:54 PM  
FTA: "Although the findings reported herein may be explicable in part by a variety of forces uniquely problematic for child development in lesbian and gay families-including a lack of social support for parents, stress exposure resulting from persistent stigma, and modest or absent legal security for their parental and romantic relationship statuses-the empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go," Regnerus said in the study.

It seems like the results have more to say about society and it's inability to grow the fark up about same sex parents than it does about their parenting abilities.


This
Not a single one of those causes are anything but society being dicks. So his conclusion should be that constantly being a dick to a kid because you don't like their parents, has consequences.

The US Department of Health and Human Services reported 83,600 substantiated reports of sexually abused children in 2005.
US population: 296M 25 percent of those under 18.... about 74,000,000.Link
Even rounding up to an even 100,000 to include unreported attacks doesn't yield a full percentage point.


You are requiring official substantiated reports and think that you get close to the actual number by rounding up by 25%? You really think that 4 out of 5 molestations are reported and substantiated? Really?
 
2012-07-10 06:47:54 PM  
The guy seems to have an issue with women being responsible for the reason men dont stick around school of thought.
 
2012-07-10 07:26:21 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: The only way i can see it having an effect is if the parents deprive them of any meaningful contact with the other sex during developmental periods. They should have a male or female representative in their lives, or of course they'll be a little screwed up when dealing with them later in life.


It's not different than being raised by a single parent in that particular regard.
 
2012-07-10 07:58:08 PM  

Bontesla: FTA: "Although the findings reported herein may be explicable in part by a variety of forces uniquely problematic for child development in lesbian and gay families-including a lack of social support for parents, stress exposure resulting from persistent stigma, and modest or absent legal security for their parental and romantic relationship statuses-the empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go," Regnerus said in the study.


Dinki: Oh, and a little bit about the author - Looks like he went into the study with an agenda and got the results he was looking for.

Or take this Washington Post op-ed he wrote in 2009, which is informed more by his personal conviction that "marriage actually works best as a formative institution, not an institution you enter once you think you're fully formed" than by actual research


So in conclusion, be a man. A straight man. And f*ck lots of women. But it's the woman's fault if she complains. And don't be gay. It's icky. Great research there, Lou.
 
2012-07-10 08:06:46 PM  

sneakynotsneaky: I don't think you're misreading it. The categories in the paper:

[snip]

He goes on to say that since these categories are clearly not mutually exclusive: "For example, a respondent whose mother had a same-sex relationship might also qualify in Group 5 or Group 7, but in this case my analytical interest is in maximizing the sample size of Groups 2 and 3 so the respondent would be placed in Group 2 (LMs)."

My reading would seem to suggest that "my father left my mother for a man" would get coded as "gay father", which in turn seems to have been mangled by the press release or the author into "raised by same-sex parents". Seems either disingenuous or stupid.


And notice the two groups he omitted:

R reported R's mother had a heterosexual romantic relationship with another man, regardless of any other household transitions, and

R reported R's father had a heterosexual romantic relationship with another woman, regardless of any other household transitions

As it is, the study is looking at dysfunctional families (where the operative dysfunction is a same-sex affair) compared with "functional" families without infidelity. A better study would compare families with a same-sex affair with families with a heterosexual affair. That would help to isolate if the "gay thing" was the operative problem.

All this study shows is that children are better off in a two-parent family sans infidelity than in a family with infidelity. Whether or not the infidelity was with a same-sex partner is not operative in this case.
 
2012-07-10 08:44:59 PM  
It's always amusing to see how you people react exactly the same way to any study that doesn't fortify your world views. You come up with any rationalization you can imagine, even though you're not remotely qualified in the field. Grow up and get used to the idea that different types of people actually have better odds of being more successful at certain things than others. It's been observed across sexes, races.. and yes, even your precious sexuality isn't immune.
 
2012-07-10 08:46:00 PM  

doglover: Smackledorfer: doglover: metztli: Sexual abuse is a lot more prevalent than you think.

So more than 2 out of any 100 people molest their kids?

I don't believe that for a minute.

Counterpoint:

Link

The US Department of Health and Human Services reported 83,600 substantiated reports of sexually abused children in 2005.

US population: 296M 25 percent of those under 18.... about 74,000,000.Link

Even rounding up to an even 100,000 to include unreported attacks doesn't yield a full percentage point.


Your link is bad (as is the one in your next post), but the way you wrote up the data it sounds like that is substantiated reports of abuse for that year alone. Additionally I find it laughable that you think only 25% of abused children fail to report, or prove, that they were abused.
 
2012-07-10 09:20:38 PM  

make me some tea: simplicimus: Study group is 18 to 39 years old. I can guess the older study participants had a harder time, but norms are changing.

They are. Do this study again in 20 years now that gay marriage is becoming acceptable, and the results will be quite different.


I've got a prediction that is far more likely to be right: you are not a prophet and you are simply making an assumption that fits your world view rather than a prediction that would actually fit the facts.
 
2012-07-10 09:26:37 PM  
46 comments!?! A trollier headline should have been approved. I would expect nothing less than 300+ replies full of entertaining vitriol.
 
2012-07-10 09:27:53 PM  
Nevermind, it's the geek tab. Much more civil here.
 
2012-07-10 09:49:06 PM  
5. Conclusion
As scholars of same-sex parenting aptly note, same-sex couples have and will continue to raise children. American courts are finding arguments against gay marriage decreasingly persuasive (Rosenfeld, 2007). This study is intended to neither undermine nor affirm any legal rights concerning such. The tenor of the last 10 years of academic discourse about gay and lesbian parents suggests that there is little to nothing about them that might be negatively associated with child development, and a variety of things that might be uniquely positive. The results of analyzing a rare large probability sample reported herein, however, document numerous, consistent differences among young adults who reported maternal lesbian behavior (and to a lesser extent, paternal gay behavior) prior to age 18. While previous studies suggest that children in planned GLB families seem to fare comparatively well, their actual representativeness among all GLB families in the US may be more modest than research based on convenience samples has presumed.

Although the findings reported herein may be explicable in part by a variety of forces uniquely problematic for child development in lesbian and gay families-including a lack of social support for parents, stress exposure resulting from persistent stigma, and modest or absent legal security for their parental and romantic relationship statuses-the empirical claim that no notable differences exist must go. While it is certainly accurate to affirm that sexual orientation or parental sexual behavior need have nothing to do with the ability to be a good, effective parent, the data evaluated herein using population-based estimates drawn from a large, nationally-representative sample of young Americans suggest that it may affect the reality of family experiences among a significant number.

Do children need a married mother and father to turn out well as adults? No, if we observe the many anecdotal accounts with which all Americans are familiar. Moreover, there are many cases in the NFSS where respondents have proven resilient and prevailed as adults in spite of numerous transitions, be they death, divorce, additional or diverse romantic partners, or remarriage. But the NFSS also clearly reveals that children appear most apt to succeed well as adults-on multiple counts and across a variety of domains-when they spend their entire childhood with their married mother and father, and especially when the parents remain married to the present day. Insofar as the share of intact, biological mother/father families continues to shrink in the United States, as it has, this portends growing challenges within families, but also heightened dependence on public health organizations, federal and state public assistance, psychotherapeutic resources, substance use programs, and the criminal justice system.


the conclusion from the study. I wanted to fault the study but they put in the controls and put together a very decent study.
 
2012-07-10 09:52:07 PM  

06Wahoo: make me some tea: simplicimus: Study group is 18 to 39 years old. I can guess the older study participants had a harder time, but norms are changing.

They are. Do this study again in 20 years now that gay marriage is becoming acceptable, and the results will be quite different.

I've got a prediction that is far more likely to be right: you are not a prophet and you are simply making an assumption that fits your world view rather than a prediction that would actually fit the facts.


As the father of a teenage daughter with many friends, I have a subjective but somewhat empirical basis to make that prediction. My world view is I don't care what other people do, but if you want to pretend your study is scientific, at the very least it should be verifiable and reproducible.
 
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