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(Slate)   A million of you are going to post the bogus study that 83% of Doctors want to quit because Socialism over the next few days, So enjoy a preemptive rebuttal   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Drudge Report, terminal illness, Pacific Research Institute, socialism  
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6529 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Jul 2012 at 9:08 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2012-07-10 09:19:05 AM  
7 votes:
I'd ask your doctor if they want to quit because of it. If so, maybe its time to switch doctors to one that cares more about your care than your insurance.

Talked to my doctor about it. He'd rather see single payer, but thinks its a step in the right direction. He'd rather see my family and his other patients healthy more than anything else in his profession. Heck. He went out of his way to make sure the foster kids on title 19 can see a pediatrician in his office.
2012-07-10 10:40:44 AM  
5 votes:
I went to the doctor the other day, and my regular doctor wasn't there, so I met this other doctor, who was a crusty old white guy, and when he was going over the fact that a positive HIV test would go on permanent record, he then said "That can't negatively affect your insurance at all, unless Mitt Romney gets elected", and he gave me a lecture on my iron levels and asked how often I wore sunscreen.

So therefore, every single old white doctor hates Mitt Romney. This is just as statistically relevant as this poll.
2012-07-10 09:55:05 AM  
5 votes:

jonnyh: My sister-in-law is about to finish medical school. She'll graduate from one of the best schools at the top of her class, building upon a stellar undergraduate record from an Ivy-league school.

She's worked at health clinics for the disadvantaged in the US and overseas. Now, she wants to be a community GP. She just genuinely enjoys working with patients and helping them. It's her passion and her love. I think that she's one of the best human beings that I've ever had the pleasure to meet. If I ever have children, I want them to be just like her.

Sadly, there are family members that are upset with her because she's not going to become a high-priced specialist. They say, "She's leaving money on the table". One of them is an arch-conservative. But, another, a raging liberal (!).

In short, this showed me how the whole money-first aspect of American medicine is truly ingrained in this country, and not just in the medical community.


That sounds very similar to an ex-gf from about 8 years back. Same deal. Med student that wanted to work in a poor area and help economically disadvantaged children. Her family wanted her to do something "that makes real money." Farking sickening family that poor girl had. Heaven forbid our doctors get into medicine to help people.

I also love how the same people that talk about how doctors need to make more money or they'll quit, but have no problem with that, are the same people who are against teachers getting paid a decent wage because "they should do it as a calling rather than for the money."
2012-07-10 09:19:52 AM  
5 votes:

farkityfarker: Where are they going to go to make more money?


Bingo.

Here in Canada, desptie what people may think, doctors aren't paid as federal employees (as they are under the UK's health plan, as I understand it).

The Canadian government puts a cap on doctor's salaries. Essentially by ensuring that doctor's have to charge a specific amount for certain things and NOT ONE PENNY MORE.

While it might be a little disconcerting for a doctor to have a maximum salary cap, it protects the public from being taken advantage of in a particularly bad way (getting squeezed for health care dollars when you are in dire medical need).

If a doctor says that he or she is going to quit because they're not making enough money, I say go to your office, print up a copy of the Hippocratic Oath, roll it up and insert it into your rectum, and then write your resignation. See you in the unemployment line.

If a doctor is in it more for the money than for the actual HEALING, then they oughtn't be a doctor in the first place. Quit and play online poker.
2012-07-10 02:39:23 PM  
4 votes:
I start medical school in two weeks, and am planning on going into family medicine and becoming a primary care physician. I love many aspects of the PPACA, and I think its overall theme of re-establishing the primary care physician as the foundation of patient-focused, preventative care willl improve effeciency tremendously and help to balance the wage discrepancy between PCPs and specialists. And the proposed reimbursement models which will find a way to reward physicians for preventative services, rather than only reimbursing them for "doing something" (i.e. writing a prescrip, referring to a specialist, ordering an unnecessary test), are steering this country in the right direction as our main probem is in treating long-term, preventable illnesses like diabetes (sorry if all this stuff is too obvious). But I would be lying if I didn't admit that the more lucrative wages of the other specialties are extremely tempting. My medical school costs $35000 a year, with about a 7% interest rate on loans. Not to mention all the undergrad loans I still have to pay off. At the hospital where I will likely do my residency (4 year internship after graduation), I will be making $7 an hour. For the amount of work that goes into it, and the demanding schedule it entails, going into a primary care specialty is completely idiotic from a financial standpoint... especially if they cut Medicare reimbursements by 27% like they are always threatening to do. I live in the Bible belt, and have worked with several doctors similar to those described in the article, threatening to quit and demanding to know why I would ever consider going into medicine nowadays, much less primary care. Most of them are fat rich white guys whose patients are also fat rich white guys.

But...I don't give a shiat. And luckily the waning financial perception of the profession is helping to weed out the kids that are going into medicine for all the wrong reasons. Please just go to law school. My brother did, and now he's 26 and making $120,000 a year, doesn't that sound fun? Medical schools are more competitive than ever, with more applicants each year than the year before, yep even after scary Obamacare was passed. But the motivations for doing so are changing. Yes, some are going into medicine because they have realized that there simply aren't any starting jobs available in finance or marketing. And others, usually aspiring orthopaedic surgeons, are looking forward to the 4-day work week, social status, and the nice beach house off the 16th green. So long as they can put humpty-dumpty back together again, I suppose their motivations matter less. As for primary care physicians, I think future patients can take comfort in the fact that their PCP chose their profession because they not only are amazed by the intricacies of the human body, but they truly value the health of their patients and forming a mutually-trusting relationship where the patient is equally involved in their own care. Because otherwise, the hours of paperwork, bureaucratic conflicts ,and intense pressure to meet demands are not worth giving up the prime years of young adult life. And most medical school students could be making more money doing something else.


TL;DR- I'm a naive 1st year med student at a school with a mission of producing primary care physicians, love PPACA and think that in its aftermath motivations for entering medicine are changing, the quality of specialists may decline slightly, but more importantly for our country's healthcare dilemma the number and quality of primary care physicians will increase for rural and underserved areas of the country where healthcare needs are exponentially greater.
2012-07-10 11:25:02 AM  
4 votes:
Wife is a pediatrician. For many, many years now all of her patients either have insurance, or are eligible to be covered by the government (Medicaid). She sees over 20 patients a day, but with the new EMR system, the office is more efficient and runs faster.
She's been practicing under a PPACA paradigm since residency. She's glad that more people will now have access to healthcare.
The other day we saw a round table discussion about the impact of ACA. A cardiologist was concerned that since everyone was now insured, there would be a flood of new patients, thus reducing quality of care. My wife quipped, "So the answer is to deny healthcare to these people because we don't want more people on our schedule? Because we now can't work 3 days a week?"
She made a decent salary in private practice, but it paid almost no benefits (Malpractice ~ $15,000/yr). Recently took a job at a big hospital group for a comparable salary with lots more benefits (malpractice included!). There is no difference in amount of patients she sees. Only difference is her old practice did everything on paper, and the finances were handled by someone who was not an accountant.
The argument that salary and private practice work conditions will deter new physicians is suspect. Private practice can work if, like most small businesses, you're smart about running it. A physician's salary is not a lottery ticket.
2012-07-10 10:02:47 AM  
4 votes:
A lot of my colleagues who entered more specialist fields, especially the surgical subspecialties, are enraged over this legislation. These are the guys that tend to have busted their asses in med school to get the highest grades, expecting to be extremely well-compensated and enjoy a reasonably nice schedule. The more hippy-ish ones who entered primary care, often putting people over profits, OTOH, tend to support it. No big surprises there, since medical wealth-redistribution is anticipated to result from this legislation.

CMS is expected to roll out a big list of proposals on the 20th of this month where they are anticipated to advocate slashing specialist salaries to increase payouts to primary care physicians, PAs, and NPs. This is a trend is expected to continue as time passes.

I don't necessarily think this will help to increase the number of primary care physicians in the country for several reasons. The biggest reason is the lifestyle that these doctors have, and med students easily pick up on the problems facing these physicians. Increasingly, they are leaving private practice because compensation models fail to enable them to pay overhead. As a result, they tend to either work salaried positions for either large hospitals or a very large group that owns a large network of practices. They are required by their contract to see a large volume of patients per day, as the hospital/company's bottom line depends upon volume. The end result is a constant flood of patients, which usually results in overflow into their lunch hour if they intend to actually care for their patients instead of rigidly give them 10 minutes of their time and coldly bark at them to schedule additional visits for any complaints not related to their chief complaint. It gives one the feeling of being overwhelmed, and helpless. The monotony and machine-like efficiency that is required often saps the physician of the drive that made them enter the field in the first place. All that keeps them in practice is the necessity to pay off the loans, mortgage, etc. Additionally, changing the compensation model for physicians to essentially mirror the No Child Left Behind Act will likely offset any and all pay incentives that the government puts into play.

The following was posted on a medical networking site by a medical student which I feel does a very good job summing up the problems regarding increasing primary care enrollment by recent medical graduates:


As a medical student, I can tell you that money is only part of the problem. Job satisfaction is a huge issue. The bottom line is that Primary Care is HARD and is only made harder by the current low reimbursement.

Look at it from our point of view: I go to do a primary care rotation. The doctor spends 15 minutes per patient. He knows the patients, I don't. I have only a few short minutes to meet the patient for the first time, establish a rapport, and figure out what's wrong, then present it to my doctor and come up with a plan. It is stressful, fast paced, and very, very HARD. You have to know multiple subjects very well, unless you plan on referring everything. It is not an enjoyable experience for a student.

By comparison, on my radiology rotation, my doctor was well paid, un-rushed (mostly), and happy. He went home at 5 (or earlier) and didn't take work with him. It was easy for a med student to figure out the basics. In a week, I was reading a chest x-ray pretty well, I think. After all, it's just anatomy (mostly) and pattern recognition. Piece of cake, compared to primary care.

So, why don't I do primary care? Lower pay. Paperwork. Huge Debt. Insurance Headaches. High Overhead. Huge Staff Required (more management headaches), Hours, Demanding Patients, on and on and on and on.

Fix all of this, and we'll talk. Students simply aren't "loving" the primary care, PCP experience.


Additionally, funding for residents comes via the GME funds as part of Medicare. This bill did not increase that funding; if anything, it decreased it to create the illusion of being deficit neutral. The end result is going to be less available residency slots for medical graduates; the AAMC has been doing a decent job of increasing medical school admissions, but without available residency slots, this will all be for naught. And this is the part of the PPACA that never made any logical sense to me; why on earth would you attempt to add 30M patients to a system that can already barely handle the current number of patients, without significantly expanding funding to train medical graduates? To me, that just boggles the mind; it's as if they want to manufacture a crisis of access.
2012-07-10 09:33:26 AM  
4 votes:
lol @ 10poundsofpuke. I'm starting to think he gets paid by how many times his name gets reposted. Disingenuous fark deserves no mentions or replies.
2012-07-10 08:51:42 AM  
4 votes:
Sadly, it will still get submitted a million times

/Fark: the Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: of news aggregators
2012-07-10 02:28:42 AM  
4 votes:

Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.



It's self-selecting, and therefore is about as useful as a self-selecting sack of dog-sh*t.
2012-07-10 01:58:45 AM  
4 votes:
699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.

I would be interested in knowing the sourcing of the contact information and seeing how the demographics of the sample size compares to the demographics of the group.
2012-07-10 11:44:38 AM  
3 votes:
The biggest headache in my wife's medical practice was collecting payment from those patients that had insurance, but we're denied coverage for a procedure (vision & hearing exams, certain vaccines, suture removal). Second biggest headache was getting insurance companies to pay in a timely manner. They would deny, lose, or send back claims for no reason other than hoping a practice gives up on collecting them.
Medicaid pays in 4 to 6 weeks. Reimbursement may be slightly less, but it is consistent in coverage and fast.
2012-07-10 09:58:51 AM  
3 votes:
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, be respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

/Just saying.
2012-07-10 09:55:02 AM  
3 votes:

Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.

I would be interested in knowing the sourcing of the contact information and seeing how the demographics of the sample size compares to the demographics of the group.



The demographics? That's easy, the demographics are the kind of people that respond to random faxes they get sent by some yahoo. That in and of itself is going to skew the results big time, because normal people don't really do that. Those faxes go straight in to the recycling bin at any company I've ever worked at.

And I wouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised if they were primarily sending them to people they knew had similar political views before they even sent the first fax.

Because really, who is so pants-on-head, fist-chewingly retarded that they would actually believe this? Yes doctors, some of the most highly paid professionals in our society, people who spend like 10 - 12 farking years of study just to BECOME one, are going to quit over Obamacare..... and do WHAT exactly? Get jobs at McDonalds slinging freedom fries because socialism?

If you believed the original story then you're stunningly gullible.
2012-07-10 09:51:20 AM  
3 votes:

Pro Zack: apparently some ramdom percentage of physicians are stupid.


Yep. 12% of doctors are creationists which is to say, some of them are retarded. So the 3% claiming they will quit due to Obamacare isn't a surprise.
2012-07-10 09:34:53 AM  
3 votes:
My sister-in-law is about to finish medical school. She'll graduate from one of the best schools at the top of her class, building upon a stellar undergraduate record from an Ivy-league school.

She's worked at health clinics for the disadvantaged in the US and overseas. Now, she wants to be a community GP. She just genuinely enjoys working with patients and helping them. It's her passion and her love. I think that she's one of the best human beings that I've ever had the pleasure to meet. If I ever have children, I want them to be just like her.

Sadly, there are family members that are upset with her because she's not going to become a high-priced specialist. They say, "She's leaving money on the table". One of them is an arch-conservative. But, another, a raging liberal (!).

In short, this showed me how the whole money-first aspect of American medicine is truly ingrained in this country, and not just in the medical community.
2012-07-10 09:28:43 AM  
3 votes:
Your doctor can't quit. He has 100k in credit card debt. Plus he has to prescribe a certain number of key drugs or he doesn't get another free caribbean vacation for him and his wife and with his debt he can't afford it on his own.
2012-07-10 09:22:15 AM  
3 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: rta.
where is the rebuttal?


So you seriously think that 83% of doctors want to quit their careers over this?
2012-07-10 02:06:35 AM  
3 votes:
My doctor is my old high school biology teacher. She's a total lefty hippie liberal and went to medical school starting in her 40s because she wanted to make more of a difference. She thinks "Obamacare" is brilliant, and the start of what will eventually be a real socialized medical system.
2012-07-10 01:48:58 PM  
2 votes:
So? America is a capitalistic society. fark 'em.

The teachers were told to fark off, the police were told to fark off, the firefighters were told to fark off, the union workers were told to fark off, the poor were told to fark off .... etc.

Tell the doctors to fark off too. They can be replaced.
2012-07-10 12:59:50 PM  
2 votes:

Rashnu: mainstreet62: Anyone know what the response rate is to penis enlargement e-mails?

1 in 12.5 million emails for spam generally.


There's a neat bit in one of Douglas Adams' later books (?"So Long And Thanks For All The Fish") where he points out that if you try to sell a ridiculous product, as long as your target audience is large enough you can profit because there is always a small number of people who aren't in their right minds and will purchase anything.
2012-07-10 12:44:02 PM  
2 votes:

kobrakai: Um, in the article you're talking about?


You know how in Hitchhiker's Guide, there's a brand of sunglasses that black themselves out when the wearer sees danger? All modern-day Republicans come standard with a variant that black themselves out when the wearer sees anything that might rebuke the party line. It's true.
2012-07-10 11:48:19 AM  
2 votes:

MFL: My old neighbor runs a family owned home nursing business and I had a few (too many) beers with them over the weekend and it was sureal. They are preparing to exit the business they started 25 years ago in two years because of the mess coming down the pipe on them. They are both sharp as hell and actually have lobbied Dick Durbin personally for the home nursing industry. Very interesting and smart people. They know more about the Affordable care act than Nancy fraking Pelosi.

But Saturday afternoon I was suprised as shiat. They told me after the court ruled they now are now pulling all of the extra cash out of the business because they think it will survive 5 at best and they want to get all of the notes with the bank paid off so none of their personal assets they used as collateral to build their new building (which is 5 years old) are off the table.

After years of listening to them bash Bush and Reagan for my entire life, it didn't hold a candle to what they said about Obama last weekend. The ironic thing was they gave me his book a few years ago as a joke for Xmas. I think I'm going to wrap it up and give it back this year.

.


Hmm, an anecdote from a known and proven liar. I mean really, you completely lied about Senator Wyden's contribution to the healthcare debate a while back, why should we believe this?
2012-07-10 11:47:59 AM  
2 votes:

MetryPapi: . They would deny, lose, or send back claims for no reason other than hoping a practice gives up on collecting them.


My old doctor was a one man plus stuff practice, retired Army doc (and pragmatically awesome). My insurance decided that me seeing him once a month - for my prescription, which I must get written out in hand each. and. every. month. was too much. Thankfully, they fought for me, gave me a pass on payment (other than me giving token good faith ones) as I fought the insurance douchebags too, and found workarounds as well (i.e. just going to pick up the prescription 2/3 months instead of getting billed for a full visit - he wouldn't let me go more than 3 without checking in with him to make sure the meds were okay, though).

Jesus effing Christ, though. Once a month was too much for those SOBs. (According to what I bought, that was a damn lie).
2012-07-10 11:44:43 AM  
2 votes:

Petey4335: I'd ask your doctor if they want to quit because of it. If so, maybe its time to switch doctors to one that cares more about your care than your insurance.

Talked to my doctor about it. He'd rather see single payer, but thinks its a step in the right direction. He'd rather see my family and his other patients healthy more than anything else in his profession. Heck. He went out of his way to make sure the foster kids on title 19 can see a pediatrician in his office.


Ditto for both my old doctor and my new one (stupid change of insurance, although the new one is pretty sweet and goes for ruling out diet and behavior stuff / changing up certain habits of mine *before* breaking out the meds and more hard core diagnostic stuff, y'know, just to rule out the easy fixes first. Takes more time, which I'm sure the insurer isn't terribly keen on but the health service he's under seems to be cool with it. I like him.

Preventative medicine, what a goddamn concept.)
2012-07-10 11:30:59 AM  
2 votes:
CreamFilling
where we may see the biggest problem is in the number of bright college students who were considering a career in medicine and now decide it's really not worth the additional time/cost/effort in school, residency, fellowship, etc, and decide to do something else.

The ACA does not add any additional time/cost/effort to medical school or residency. I doubt fellowships, but I don't know how those work.

Do you think some bright young person dreamed of being a doctor, but now that an extra 50 million people will have health insurance, they don't want to go to medical school? Or that four million people who could afford health insurance, but choose to not buy it,will pay a tax of 2.5% on their income?

The ACA doesn't change doctor training in any way. Certification, licensing, etc. Rand Paul can still run his fake opthamology board.

All it does is let a huge number of people get care before things get really bad, and make it easier for everyone else to get preventative care, so they stay healthier.

Why would that p.o. doctors?
2012-07-10 11:18:45 AM  
2 votes:
Anybody who thinks this survey was pertinent takes this test:

http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx (new window)

I would bet my life savings that not a single "doctor" who responded to this survey with "I'm thinking of quitting" would get 100%... or even 70%.

You uninformed dooshcoks are killing this country and revelling the stress. Fark you.

/indy
2012-07-10 11:18:42 AM  
2 votes:

too-old: I get the feeling that almost no doctors have faxes anymore and you are making that up, just like that poll was made up


You know how I know you don't operate a business in any capacity or understand what goes into a business?

Do you have any idea how frequently faxes are still used for business documents? Do you understand that other than 30 or younger, most people are familiar with a fax and not digital keys? Do you understand that for that 30 and younger set, the fax is still a necessary redundancy if you want to hold accounts with those other businesses? I still have (and regularly use) a fax for this exact reason. And FedEx and UPS accounts with steep discounts on overnights even for things I could send by email or farking fax, for that matter.

Yeah, I can really picture some 55-year-old doctor who has used a fax machine his entire life going "well, time to get rid of this and use the emails, some guy on the internet thinks it's an unnecessary expense (that's small change to actually operate)"
2012-07-10 11:10:09 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: I can't speak for 83% but I know that at least two will. They're getting on in years and mostly just work now because they want to.

Great job Obama, you've managed to make doctors want to quit, but be sure and don't do a thing to mess with those trial lawyers who donate to you.


Any doctor who is quitting because of Obamacare needs to quit anyway because they're in it for the wrong reasons. Good riddance. I would also venture a guess as to say that any "doctor" who thinks they are going to quit knows about as much about ACA as your average Tea Partier.
2012-07-10 11:02:13 AM  
2 votes:
Most doctors I know wouldn't even bother responding to a fax survey.

What a waste of time, number one AND obviously a troll survey, number two.

And yes, I know a ton of physicians, doctors, nurses, healthcare types. Not a SINGLE ONE is against ACA. Then again, they are informed people who would like to see a single payer socialist system...

because well, they're healers, it's what they want to do
2012-07-10 10:59:27 AM  
2 votes:

Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent


That's crap... first off, most docs who get a fax like this will look at it and go "Hey... crackpot tea-partier looking to stir up some shat"

Guessing the only people who saw that poll and wanted to respond were tea-party crackpots.
2012-07-10 10:53:58 AM  
2 votes:
Flimsy study aside, apparently Republicans think it's bad to make doctors want to quit but good to make teachers want to quit.
2012-07-10 10:47:47 AM  
2 votes:

iawai: It's not a rebuttal.


They clearly showed the method used was a clear example of sampling bias. So yes, it is a strong rebuttal of the validity of their results.
2012-07-10 10:32:04 AM  
2 votes:
As I pointed out in the previous thread, if doctors truly hated Obamacare, then they should also hate Romneycare.

If so, why does Massachusetts have more MDs per capita, by far, then any other state?

Answer: they don't hate Romneycare, and they won't hate Obamacare.
2012-07-10 09:49:07 AM  
2 votes:
An interesting footnote would be what was the specialty of the doctors who were polled? Were they general practitioners who generally only care about healing the sick, or were the doctors like plastic surgeons and stuff that won't benefit from the ACA?
2012-07-10 09:36:18 AM  
2 votes:
"If we can just make sure to treat cancer patients with older, cheaper, more ineffective treatments, then treatment will actually be more effective -- at cutting costs as more cancer patients die. We not only save the cost of more expensive medication -- we also save by relying on less expensive stays in hospices instead of more extended active treatments. "

Overlooking the fact that Obamacare doesn't tell physicians how to treat their patients, this completely ignores the fact that even if you have insurance, there is currently a gatekeeper telling you that you can't have expensive treatments: the insurance company.

For example, I have the most generous plan an individual can buy in my state, and it costs a fortune, but yet the latest treatments somehow are not mentioned in the 80 plus pages of details. I needed a series of MRIs recently, and even after the deductible was met the tests cost thousands of dollars out of pocket because MRIs aren't covered under my plan. That is exactly why we need medical exchanges that spell out exactly what treatments are covered or not covered.
2012-07-10 09:34:05 AM  
2 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: It is a big leap to say that if you didn't respond, you aren't willing to quit over it.


It is a big leap to say that if you didn't respond, you are willing to quit over it.
2012-07-10 09:24:58 AM  
2 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: woops, apologies, wrong reply can't read.


FTFY
2012-07-10 09:19:44 AM  
2 votes:

Skleenar: Woah. If that many doctors want to quit, Obamacare must be bad.


We need a "funny, but also sad because it reflects how a large portion of our populace actually thinks" button.
2012-07-10 09:17:34 AM  
2 votes:

ecmoRandomNumbers: My doctor is my old high school biology teacher. She's a total lefty hippie liberal and went to medical school starting in her 40s because she wanted to make more of a difference. She thinks "Obamacare" is brilliant, and the start of what will eventually be a real socialized medical system.


She's incredibly optimistic, I'll give her that.

We'll need a lot of ignorant people in the southeast and midwest to stop voting before that can happen.
2012-07-10 09:15:27 AM  
2 votes:

Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.

I would be interested in knowing the sourcing of the contact information and seeing how the demographics of the sample size compares to the demographics of the group.

The survey was conducted by fax and online from April 18 to May 22, 2012. DPMAF obtained the office fax numbers of 36,000 doctors in active clinical practice, and 16, 227 faxes were successfully delivered... The response rate was 4.3% for a total of 699 completed surveys.


Spam doctor's offices with faxes, 95.7% of them threw the junk in the trash deeming it not worthy of a response, 4.3% were so passionate about the issue that they bothered to reply, and of those so passionate 83% said that they thought about quitting. If you count the doctors that did not bother to respond to the survey as not wanting to quit over it, the actual percentage would be ... about 3%.
2012-07-10 09:15:08 AM  
2 votes:

farkityfarker: Where are they going to go to make more money?


Butthurtvania. There's been an influx of immigrants there.
2012-07-10 03:39:42 AM  
2 votes:
I would guess that most doctors are completely unsuited for anything else, save golf, and they ain't that good.
Yes, Dr. soft-hands, try and do some other job (that will cover the McMansion and the Benz), with your highly-specialized brain. All you know is medicine, and probably just your specialty.
2012-07-10 03:03:30 PM  
1 vote:

Carl Winslow's .9 MM: TL;DR- I'm a naive 1st year med student at a school with a mission of producing primary care physicians, love PPACA and think that in its aftermath motivations for entering medicine are changing, the quality of specialists may decline slightly, but more importantly for our country's healthcare dilemma the number and quality of primary care physicians will increase for rural and underserved areas of the country where healthcare needs are exponentially greater.


Fewer and fewer doctors have been going into PCP for decades, and the ones who go into PCP tend to leave for another speciality quickly. I don't think the PPACA changes will accelerate or reverse this trend. As you implied, the fact that other specialities get reimbursed at higher rates is pretty much the major driving factor behind it.
2012-07-10 01:08:24 PM  
1 vote:
tenpoundsofderp defending a shiatty poll with an indefensible methodology? COLOR ME SHOCKED.
2012-07-10 11:50:38 AM  
1 vote:

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Petey4335: I'd ask your doctor if they want to quit because of it. If so, maybe its time to switch doctors to one that cares more about your care than your insurance.

Talked to my doctor about it. He'd rather see single payer, but thinks its a step in the right direction. He'd rather see my family and his other patients healthy more than anything else in his profession. Heck. He went out of his way to make sure the foster kids on title 19 can see a pediatrician in his office.

Ditto for both my old doctor and my new one (stupid change of insurance, although the new one is pretty sweet and goes for ruling out diet and behavior stuff / changing up certain habits of mine *before* breaking out the meds and more hard core diagnostic stuff, y'know, just to rule out the easy fixes first. Takes more time, which I'm sure the insurer isn't terribly keen on but the health service he's under seems to be cool with it. I like him.

Preventative medicine, what a goddamn concept.)


Well duh. Why do you think Republitards are so scared of death panels? Because it takes the power away from corporations who pay them and puts it into the hands of people who might actually give a shiat about your quality of life.
2012-07-10 11:46:07 AM  
1 vote:
"83% percent of American physicians have considered leaving their practices, to work for a hospital or other large health facility, over President Barack Obama's health care reform law"

FIFY

Are people really stupid to think that 83% of doctors are going to give up a $160k salary (median fam. med physician) to work at a video store because of Obamacare.
2012-07-10 11:41:12 AM  
1 vote:

Fluorescent Testicle: Mrtraveler01: With what?

FreedomCare. All of the benefits of Obamacare with none of the blackness of Obama.


Well, if you listen to R-Money, the GOP wants all the goodies in the ACA, but they want to get rid of the parts that pay for it... Fiscal Conservatism at its best, right there.
2012-07-10 11:37:13 AM  
1 vote:
16,277 faxes sent, 699 reported back, 83% (~581) of those said they'd quit over Obamacare.

Couldn't you just as well say that 96% of doctors asked DIDN"T say that Obamacare would cause them to quit?
2012-07-10 11:35:15 AM  
1 vote:

MFL: My old neighbor runs a family owned home nursing business and I had a few (too many) beers with them over the weekend and it was sureal. They are preparing to exit the business they started 25 years ago in two years because of the mess coming down the pipe on them.


What is it they think is coming?
2012-07-10 11:34:36 AM  
1 vote:

UNC_Samurai: ecmoRandomNumbers: My doctor is my old high school biology teacher. She's a total lefty hippie liberal and went to medical school starting in her 40s because she wanted to make more of a difference. She thinks "Obamacare" is brilliant, and the start of what will eventually be a real socialized medical system.

She's incredibly optimistic, I'll give her that.

We'll need a lot of ignorant people in the southeast and midwest to stop voting before that can happen.


We already have a lot of ignorant people in the southeast and midwest, and unfortunately most of them vote ... for any politician regurgitating a Fox News talking point.

If the free market is the answer to everything, let's just have a free market military too.
2012-07-10 11:22:36 AM  
1 vote:

CreamFilling: qorkfiend: CreamFilling: If you thought you would be making $250k a year when you're done, maybe it's worth it to you to go through that. For $160k, a lot more people are going to decide it's not.

If you're only going into medicine because of the money, and you're turning up your nose at a salary that's triple the national average, you a) are doing it wrong and b) won't be missed. Get out and open up spots in med school to people who want to be there.

Whobsaid anything about only doing it for the money? It's certainly a consideration, just like any other profession. You'd have to analyze the cost/benefit, and see if it's worth it to you. Decrease the benefit without doing anything about the cost and you'll invariably shift the number of people willing to do it.


What else are they gonna do? Get into the lucrative field of fry cooking? Retail sales? Data entry? Nuclear physics? Paint tasting?

A doctor of almost any kind will earn more in their lifetimes than someone in any other profession. Pardon me while I break out my violin for all those would-be doctors who would forgo a ~$150k/year salary because it's not high enough. So sad.

// the ones with MDs already will likely become lackey for InsurCos - the Real Death Panels
// or go be a sociopathic business person instead
// helping people's for suckers and socialists
2012-07-10 11:11:19 AM  
1 vote:

randomjsa: I can't speak for 83% but I know that at least two will. They're getting on in years and mostly just work now because they want to.


That makes no sense. If they are working because they just want to work, this will have absolutely no impact.
2012-07-10 11:07:40 AM  
1 vote:
Well sure, the quacks do not like that outcome based reforms are part of the bargain...it is a lot easier to assign multitudes of tests rather than ya know, do your job well.

/quit, losers, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
2012-07-10 11:04:38 AM  
1 vote:
Mark this down as another lie we can point to in a year and laugh about how wrong the GOP was. Man this list is getting long...
2012-07-10 10:57:18 AM  
1 vote:

randomjsa: I can't speak for 83% but I know that at least two will. They're getting on in years and mostly just work now because they want to.


If they're "just working because they want to," then Obamacare is going to cause them to stop because...why?
2012-07-10 10:56:33 AM  
1 vote:

ongbok: It is 83% of doctors who are subscribers to the Heartland Institute's newsletter.


Is it really?

Because this just proves what an abortion this application of statistics is.

How many doctors subscribe to the Heartland Institute's newsletter?

This is really the best the GOP can come up with in terms of fear mongering?
2012-07-10 10:56:11 AM  
1 vote:

someonelse: Flimsy study aside, apparently Republicans think it's bad to make doctors want to quit but good to make teachers want to quit.


Doctors don't make enough to live on but Teachers make bazillions!


actually, it is a private sector and public sector debate
2012-07-10 10:51:01 AM  
1 vote:
Wait... So there are people out there who actually think 83% of Doctors are going to close up shop because of the ACA.

O.K.

As someone mentioned above, that's not what has happened in Massachusetts. Six years on and we're still ranked as one of the top states for health care and as one of the healthiest, fittest states. 98% coverage, as well.

My god, the Chicken Littles certainly have their panties in a bunch these days.
2012-07-10 10:37:43 AM  
1 vote:

tenpoundsofcheese: Beef Swellington: Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.

I would be interested in knowing the sourcing of the contact information and seeing how the demographics of the sample size compares to the demographics of the group.

Response rate, grasshopper. The margin of error matters not.

from wiki: Holbrook et al. (2005) assessed whether lower response rates are associated with less unweighted demographic respresentativeness of a sample. By examining the results of 81 national surveys with response rates varying from 5 percent to 54 percent, they found that surveys with much lower response rates were only minimally less accurate.


So if you don't accept the terrible validity of a survey with a minuscule response rate by a partisan organization, how about we look at other factors:

Representative sample? Nope.
80% of respondents say they belong to a single doctor or small practice, however upwards of 50% of medical practices are now in hospital or other large practices and only one third are in single doctor or small practices and another 15% were in 3-5 member group practices.
In addition, the years in practice are not representative of the general physician population; in this study only 8.3% of respondents were in practice less than 10 years whereas 29.3% of US physicians report this level of seniority.

Unbiased questions? Nope.
The first question is "How do current changes in the medical system affect your desire to practice medicine?" which might be a valid question, however the only responses are "I'm re-energized," "I'm thinking about quitting," and "no opinion." Where's the option for folks who are half-heartedly going along with it? There's a huge gulf between being re-energized and thinking about quitting that isn't reflected on the survey. While the survey reports that 82% of docs are thinking about quitting, it doesn't provide any explanation for why that is when the 2008 study showed 43% of physicians where somewhat satisfied with their careers and 39% were very satisfied. Can we really assume that all of those doctors are now thinking about quitting when the majority of the ACA reforms haven't even come into effect yet?

How about the analysis of the results? Hey, that is bogus too.
The survey's authors highlight that two thirds of the respondents report "just squeaking by or in the red" in terms of their practices' finances. First off, we have to question whether the ~20% of respondents who are part of large practices are even in a position to know how well their practices are doing. Secondly, an examination of the actual question shows that 32.5% of respondents say their practice is "in the black" full stop, 37.3% that their practice is "in the black, but just squeaking by," 12.3% are "breaking even" and only 14.5% report that they are in the red. That may seem a little damning, but that doesn't mean that doctors themselves are going broke. It is the responsibility of a practice, even a single-doctor private one, to pay out doctors' salaries, so any practice that is in the black, squeaking by, or breaking even is still paying its doctors with no significant problem. Suggesting that two thirds of the doctors are squeaking by or worse ignores the fact that ~70% are operating in the black. Similar chicanery of findings is used on other issues as well.

In summary, the survey is a piece of trash.
2012-07-10 10:33:29 AM  
1 vote:

Philip Francis Queeg: Who the fark still uses a fax machine?


Probably doctors in smaller practices. Some of these people have been operating the same way for decades. They practice out of the first floor of their house, and their staff is their family*. Not generally very tech-savvy.

*Not getting touchy-feely over here, I mean literally their wife, kids, etc.
2012-07-10 10:24:13 AM  
1 vote:

too-old: CreamFilling: Every doctor's office in the country?

Why? It is an unnecessary expense.

Especially with Digital signing


so much stuff is still done on paper it would surprise me to find a doctors office that doesn't have a fax machine.
2012-07-10 10:22:58 AM  
1 vote:
So basically the "poll" has the accuracy of a Fox News internet poll
2012-07-10 10:22:14 AM  
1 vote:

CreamFilling: If you thought you would be making $250k a year when you're done, maybe it's worth it to you to go through that. For $160k, a lot more people are going to decide it's not.


If you're only going into medicine because of the money, and you're turning up your nose at a salary that's triple the national average, you a) are doing it wrong and b) won't be missed. Get out and open up spots in med school to people who want to be there.
2012-07-10 10:18:58 AM  
1 vote:

The 4chan Psychiatrist: Wall of very reasonable text that I read top to bottom


One of my closest friends (and singer in our band) is an M.D. I asked his opinion about ACA and his response was very similar. He went down the list of changes that he could recall and told me what he thought of them...a.k.a. digital medical records = good, medical mass production to keep up with quotas = bad, etc.

He also feels that we will see a shortage of specialists because of the risk/reward scenario painted by ACA is not very favorable to the physician.

When asked about his specialty (wound care), he doesn't think he'll be financially hit too hard. Surgeons, however, are going to take a beating, but "F*ck them...They make too much money anyway." (His opinion.)
2012-07-10 10:17:15 AM  
1 vote:

tenpoundsofcheese: ecmoRandomNumbers: My doctor is my old high school biology teacher. She's a total lefty hippie liberal and went to medical school starting in her 40s because she wanted to make more of a difference. She thinks "Obamacare" is brilliant, and the start of what will eventually be a real socialized medical system.

okay. but she isn't a doctor and this article is about doctors.

please don't go off topic.

(p.s. my gardener doesn't like 0bamacare, so we are even)


You're not a very good reader, are you?
2012-07-10 10:07:56 AM  
1 vote:

tenpoundsofcheese: xanadian: Yeah, 83% of a 4% response rate amounts to dick and squat.

what is a normal response rate for people who call people at home for a survey?


Since the mid-1980's, telephone surveys have become the standard practice for obtaining data on household travel in the U.S. (Stopher, 1996). But, for a variety of reasons including changes to the North American telephone numbering system, the availability of intercepting technologies, such as caller-ID, and the multiple contacts required to complete a two-stage survey, telephone-based travel surveys seem to be suffering from declining response rates. Recent regional telephone surveys of household activity or travel surveys in the U.S. have had household response rates ranging from 20 to 40 percent (Zimowski, Tourangeau et al, 1997).


Link

It's a bit dated but the figures jive with what I remember from my methods class.
2012-07-10 09:56:48 AM  
1 vote:
So I guess 83% of doctors were opposed to it in 1993 when the GOP introduced the idea.
2012-07-10 09:54:08 AM  
1 vote:

CreamFilling: Very few doctors are going to outright quit over this. Many may retire a few years earlier than they would have otherwise. However, where we may see the biggest problem is in the number of bright college students who were considering a career in medicine and now decide it's really not worth the additional time/cost/effort in school, residency, fellowship, etc, and decide to do something else.


Why would this be the case? How does the ACA increase a medical student's time in school and residency?
2012-07-10 09:47:32 AM  
1 vote:

Philip Francis Queeg: Who the fark still uses a fax machine?


Chiropractors and Dentists. They seem to be the only ones that are this vocal against Obamacare.
2012-07-10 09:44:48 AM  
1 vote:

jakomo002: farkityfarker: Where are they going to go to make more money?

Bingo.

Here in Canada, desptie what people may think, doctors aren't paid as federal employees (as they are under the UK's health plan, as I understand it).

The Canadian government puts a cap on doctor's salaries. Essentially by ensuring that doctor's have to charge a specific amount for certain things and NOT ONE PENNY MORE.

While it might be a little disconcerting for a doctor to have a maximum salary cap, it protects the public from being taken advantage of in a particularly bad way (getting squeezed for health care dollars when you are in dire medical need).

If a doctor says that he or she is going to quit because they're not making enough money, I say go to your office, print up a copy of the Hippocratic Oath, roll it up and insert it into your rectum, and then write your resignation. See you in the unemployment line.

If a doctor is in it more for the money than for the actual HEALING, then they oughtn't be a doctor in the first place. Quit and play online poker.


*claps* I'd prefer a Maester over some greedy Lannister any day
2012-07-10 09:40:35 AM  
1 vote:

Cubs300: I thought people wanted to be doctors to help people. You know, save lives, fix broken bones, etc. When in a doctor's life do the priorities flip and they are in it all for the money and nothing but?


This. If you are only in medicine to make money then GTFO!

/need single payer
//med school should be subsided initially or fully reimbursed after x number years of service
2012-07-10 09:38:20 AM  
1 vote:

It is 83% of doctors who are subscribers to the Heartland Institute's newsletter.

farkityfarker: Where are they going to go to make more money?


www.usanetwork.com

2012-07-10 09:38:02 AM  
1 vote:
Yeah, 83% of a 4% response rate amounts to dick and squat.
2012-07-10 09:34:52 AM  
1 vote:

tenpoundsofcheese: kmmontandon: Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.


It's self-selecting, and therefore is about as useful as a self-selecting sack of dog-sh*t.

all polls are self-selecting.
people choose whether or not they will participate and whether or not they will finish the poll once it got started.

or did you think people are forced to do a poll?


You have to admit that conducting the poll in this way is very strange. I would never participate in a poll that required me filling out a form and faxing it back to someone. It is a very active participation, I think you have to admit, you need to be pretty motivated on the subject of the poll to answer one via fax.

Answering a few questions after a poll taker happens to catch me on the phone is much more passive. The person being polled doesn't really have to do anything but listen (ie. won't have to interrupt their TV watching time, caught me on my cell on my way home from work...). You are far more likely to get a more proper cross section of the community.
2012-07-10 09:30:44 AM  
1 vote:
Too late, we already read the other headline.

/everything I deed to know I got from Fark headlines
2012-07-10 09:24:59 AM  
1 vote:
I thought people wanted to be doctors to help people. You know, save lives, fix broken bones, etc. When in a doctor's life do the priorities flip and they are in it all for the money and nothing but? I would think that a doctors would embrace a more socialized version of health care...or at least anything that would make it easier in dealing with insurance companies. Or am I mis-interpreting what "Obamacare" is all about?
2012-07-10 09:24:31 AM  
1 vote:
So basically they used a NewsMax poll people could reach by clicking on a banner on Drudge.
2012-07-10 09:18:16 AM  
1 vote:

farkityfarker: Where are they going to go to make more money?


You know, I hear there's an opening in the clown porn industry.
2012-07-10 09:13:22 AM  
1 vote:
I bet they'll just move to Canada or Europe, where there is no socialism and taxes are low.
2012-07-10 09:12:43 AM  
1 vote:
Where are they going to go to make more money?
2012-07-10 07:55:21 AM  
1 vote:

kmmontandon: Shrew2u: 699 data points from a pool of about 665,000 physicians would have a margin of error of 3.7 percent, if the poll is crafted well and the sample is statistically-reflective of the larger group.


It's self-selecting, and therefore is about as useful as a self-selecting sack of dog-sh*t.


IIRC from last year, it was also sent out to members of a group for physicians who wanted to defeat ACA.
2012-07-10 07:31:29 AM  
1 vote:

Pockafrusta: 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


Only because 85% of statisticians hate their farking job.
2012-07-10 01:27:04 AM  
1 vote:
63% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
 
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