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(MSNBC)   Dump your US citizenship in order to save millions in taxes? That's Rich   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 145
    More: Stupid, Marc Rich, tax havens, permanent residency, Cook Islands, 5th Avenue, magazines, Richard Kilstock  
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5474 clicks; posted to Business » on 09 Jul 2012 at 6:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-09 04:55:33 PM  
Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.
 
2012-07-09 05:03:56 PM  
If she's got Austrian citizenship, I doubt she's going to save much on taxes. Those people are a bunch of socialists, dontcha know.
 
2012-07-09 05:04:25 PM  
Bar her, and anyone else that gives up their citizenship regardless of reason, from entering the US for any reason.

If she wants to come back, she has to pay her back taxes.
 
2012-07-09 05:17:34 PM  

meat0918: Bar her, and anyone else that gives up their citizenship regardless of reason, from entering the US for any reason.

If she wants to come back, she has to pay her back taxes.


she can just become an illegal immigrant instead.

there is nothing that says that she is not paying the taxes she owes. So why would she have to pay back taxes?
do you believe in taxation without representation?
 
2012-07-09 05:17:54 PM  
The darker side of Richie Rich's family.
 
2012-07-09 05:18:29 PM  

EnviroDude: Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.


Austria has Obamacare on steroids. She must be a sekrit soshulist.
 
2012-07-09 05:26:53 PM  
pardoned billionaire trader Marc Rich

Just in case anyone forgot

2008 Eric Holder Is Disqualified by the Marc Rich Pardon

2008 Holder's reputation dinged by Marc Rich pardon

2009 The real reason Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich
During Eric Holder's confirmation hearing, Arlen Specter scolded the attorney general-designate, but no one mentioned Israeli pressure.


2008 A Pardon to Remember

2001 THE CLINTON PARDONS: THE DEMOCRATS; This Time, Clintons Find Their Support Buckling From Weight of New Woes
''I've publicly said the Rich pardon was a mistake,'' Mr. McAuliffe said. ''If I were president I wouldn't have done it.
Earlier this week, former President Jimmy Carter ended his reluctance about commenting on Mr. Clinton and said of the pardons, ''In my opinion, it was disgraceful.'' Many Clinton backers who were interviewed criticized his decision to defend his pardon of Mr. Rich in an Op-Ed article in The New York Times.


2005 Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels of oil.
 
2012-07-09 05:43:35 PM  

EnviroDude: Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.


Because hypocrisy charges only stick to Republicans
 
2012-07-09 05:47:32 PM  
The thing about having a US citizenship is that you fall under the IRS' jurisdiction regardless of where you live and how long you've lived there.
 
2012-07-09 05:55:03 PM  
Here's Austria's personal income tax rates:

€1-11,000 ------- 0%
€11,001-25,000 ------ 36.5%
€25,001- 60,000 ------ 43.21%
€60,001 and over ------ 50%

Oh, and as far as I can tell, Austria's doesn't have a specific capital gains tax - for individuals, it's taxed at the same rate as their personal income taxes.

So, how exactly would this move save her any money?
 
2012-07-09 06:06:58 PM  
Can a person choose to have no citizenship at all?
 
2012-07-09 06:09:01 PM  
msnbcmedia1.msn.comimages-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org
 
2012-07-09 06:10:00 PM  

EnviroDude: Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.


Dumping your citizenship is apparently a patriotic move when the Democrats are in charge, but do it when the Republicans are in charge, and all of a sudden you're a traitor.
 
2012-07-09 06:12:44 PM  

RexTalionis: So, how exactly would this move save her any money?


My best guess is that that her accountants and lawyers know of better loopholes in the Austrian tax code.
 
2012-07-09 06:16:50 PM  
The sad part is that she, and the others who have renounced their citizenship for tax reasons, probably still have the level of influence on the US political process.

Serious Black: Dumping your citizenship is apparently a patriotic move when the Democrats are in charge


No, it's slimy either way.
 
2012-07-09 06:16:56 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Can a person choose to have no citizenship at all?


I do not know, but I would not do this. If you have no state than your lawyers and accountants could steal from you. What are you going to do? Go to the police?
 
2012-07-09 06:17:04 PM  
i411.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-09 06:18:22 PM  

RexTalionis: Here's Austria's personal income tax rates:

€1-11,000 ------- 0%
€11,001-25,000 ------ 36.5%
€25,001- 60,000 ------ 43.21%
€60,001 and over ------ 50%

Oh, and as far as I can tell, Austria's doesn't have a specific capital gains tax - for individuals, it's taxed at the same rate as their personal income taxes.

So, how exactly would this move save her any money?


Helps if you RTFA, assuming that MSNBC has any journalistic integrity at all.

1) Rich plans to make London her main residence and does not intend to acquire other passports, Heidt said.
2) While Austria, like the United States, generally taxes its citizens on their worldwide income, it has generous tax breaks for citizens who spend half the year abroad.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get what you see there.
 
2012-07-09 06:20:32 PM  

Serious Black: EnviroDude: Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.

Dumping your citizenship is apparently a patriotic move when the Democrats are in charge, but do it when the Republicans are in charge, and all of a sudden you're a traitor.


What the fark are you talking about?
 
2012-07-09 06:30:39 PM  

angrymacface: The sad part is that she, and the others who have renounced their citizenship for tax reasons, probably still have the level of influence on the US political process.


Meh - any foreigner can influence the US political process 'cause free $peech
 
2012-07-09 06:30:43 PM  

bhcompy: RexTalionis: Here's Austria's personal income tax rates:

€1-11,000 ------- 0%
€11,001-25,000 ------ 36.5%
€25,001- 60,000 ------ 43.21%
€60,001 and over ------ 50%

Oh, and as far as I can tell, Austria's doesn't have a specific capital gains tax - for individuals, it's taxed at the same rate as their personal income taxes.

So, how exactly would this move save her any money?

Helps if you RTFA, assuming that MSNBC has any journalistic integrity at all.

1) Rich plans to make London her main residence and does not intend to acquire other passports, Heidt said.
2) While Austria, like the United States, generally taxes its citizens on their worldwide income, it has generous tax breaks for citizens who spend half the year abroad.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get what you see there.


except for number 1...i've heard of a lot of english bands living and working overseas to reduce their taxes. pink floyd and the rolling stones come to mind. both went to france iirc.
 
2012-07-09 06:32:14 PM  
Wait until the November elections come around and she finds she cant vote.

Then she'll be sorry.
 
2012-07-09 06:35:20 PM  

Tanukis_Parachute: except for number 1...i've heard of a lot of english bands living and working overseas to reduce their taxes. pink floyd and the rolling stones come to mind. both went to france iirc.


Well, the question is how does England tax resident aliens' overseas earnings? I'd be willing to bet it's a much better tax situation than she would have here or in Austria, or she wouldn't do what she's doing.
 
2012-07-09 06:36:55 PM  
Best thing for the Democrats, keep that family out of the country, make people forget that Clinton pardoned Mark Rich.

Best thing for the Republicans, this came up during an election year reminding people about Bill Clinton's Mark Rich Pardon who's wife donated an ass load of money to the Democratic party.

As for Obama, he had no part in the pardon. All he has to do is mention how he would not have done it, how it was a mistake, and damage to him is limited. The party is still going to suffer.
 
2012-07-09 06:37:54 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Can a person choose to have no citizenship at all?


Yes. Renounce your US citizenship, and that is exactly what will happen. You become "stateless" which is only cool until you realize that the various states around the globe are also occupying all of the livable land.
 
2012-07-09 06:38:01 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Can a person choose to have no citizenship at all?


Why would you want to? The whole point of citizenry is to have a collective backing you up when another person or collective gets stupid (recent high profile examples: Bill Clinton bailing out US Citizens Laura Ling and Euna Lee from a North Korean misadventure). You exchange taxes for the securities this collective affords you.

Complain all you want to about the outrageous amount of money the NYPD receives, for example, but you can make it home safely while nearly blackout drunk through Manhattan without worrying too much about being robbed*.

Anyway, the answer is yes. You become stateless and life literally becomes a matter of you versus the world.

/*except by unscrupulous police officers
 
2012-07-09 06:38:29 PM  
Rich, but not quite StrikitRich.
 
2012-07-09 06:39:50 PM  

Tanukis_Parachute:
except for number 1...i've heard of a lot of english bands living and working overseas to reduce their taxes. pink floyd and the rolling stones come to mind. both went to france iirc.


There is no hate in Ireland like Bono hate, who keeps his money in the Netherlands.
 
2012-07-09 06:42:57 PM  
but how is she going to create jobs this way!
 
2012-07-09 06:44:16 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: to have a collective backing you up


but socializm!
 
2012-07-09 06:48:06 PM  
In January, Rich put her 5th Avenue penthouse in New York on the market for $65 million, according to the listing agent, The Corcoran Group. New York property records show Rich acquired a 100 percent stake in the apartment, described by Corcoran as "the epitome of luxury and grandeur," for $200,000 in 2006.

Wat

That's uh...quite a deal.
 
2012-07-09 06:56:46 PM  
Nearly 1,800 citizens and permanent residents, a record since data was first compiled in 1998, expatriated last year, according to government figures.

That number seems low, since there are over 6 million expat Americans living abroad not to mention all the former permanent residents who return to their home country's I know of at least 10 people that fit these categorizes so 1,800 has got to be a fake #
 
2012-07-09 07:06:27 PM  

Kanemano: Nearly 1,800 citizens and permanent residents, a record since data was first compiled in 1998, expatriated last year, according to government figures.

That number seems low, since there are over 6 million expat Americans living abroad not to mention all the former permanent residents who return to their home country's I know of at least 10 people that fit these categorizes so 1,800 has got to be a fake #


Sure, that or "Expatriate" has more than one definition.

The most common definition is that of a citizen living in a country other than the one in which they have a citizenship. That's your 6 million people definition. Those people are still US Citizens and pay US taxes, they just live in another country on some arrangement.

The definition the article is using is someone who renounces allegience to the US. That's your 1,800 people definition.
 
2012-07-09 07:13:13 PM  
she should be barred from entering the US again.

I mean, she is giving up her citizenship to avoid a tax bill. people have been denied access to visit the US for far less egregious reasons.

just put her on the terrorism watch list. that $200k to $65mm gain in 6 years on a single property looks a lot like money laundering.
 
2012-07-09 07:13:34 PM  

EnviroDude: Guess you can't threaten to tax the rich after all.

If she were a republican, I would have suspected that she was moving because of Obama and the socialists running DC. As she is a democrat, I have no idea why she is not willing to pay her dues, taxes, and fair share.


Because rich on both sides are scumbags, dont let the letter beside their names fool you, both sides will screw the rest of us to the wall.

This is why taxes never really phase the rich, they will find ways to hide their taxes while the average joe will end up getting a huge inheritance from some dead relative that he has to pay a shiatload of taxes on because he has no clue how to hide it once he gets it.

The tax laws are farked up, but nobody will ever fix it. There are numerous stories of people working and living abroad who get notices that they have to pay US income taxes as well even if they are already paying taxes for the country in which they are actually living, most of those people have just given up citizenship instead of facing the tax bill. Although if you ever want to travel to the US then you still have to pay previous tax bills.

The system if farked but nobody wants to address it.
 
2012-07-09 07:18:49 PM  

meat0918: Bar her, and anyone else that gives up their citizenship regardless of reason, from entering the US for any reason.

If she wants to come back, she has to pay her back taxes.


What back taxes? Non-citizens who don't live or work in the US don't owe the US any taxes.
 
2012-07-09 07:21:15 PM  
FTA: In 2008, Congress imposed an expatriation tax on persons with a net worth of more than $2 million who dump their U.S. citizenship or permanent residency. Under the law, those people owe an "exit tax" on their worldwide property, computed at a fair market value the day before they leave.

When I mentioned the "exit tax" in a previous thread, farkers told me that it didn't exist. Take that General Jim.
 
2012-07-09 07:23:30 PM  
If she's always jet setting around Monaco, why not take up residency there? Works for the F1 guys who are gone 10 months out of the year...
 
2012-07-09 07:25:14 PM  

dumbobruni: she should be barred from entering the US again.

I mean, she is giving up her citizenship to avoid a tax bill. people have been denied access to visit the US for far less egregious reasons.

just put her on the terrorism watch list. that $200k to $65mm gain in 6 years on a single property looks a lot like money laundering.


Or just charge her a fee for using a foreign government's infrastructure. She has to pay her share of the airport, roads, police, military, and everything else that keeps the States from being Somalia.

/actually Somalia is getting better - soon Somalis will probably be saying "If you don't want to pay any taxes why don't you just move that cesspool 'America?'"
 
2012-07-09 07:29:04 PM  

bhcompy: Tanukis_Parachute: except for number 1...i've heard of a lot of english bands living and working overseas to reduce their taxes. pink floyd and the rolling stones come to mind. both went to france iirc.

Well, the question is how does England tax resident aliens' overseas earnings? I'd be willing to bet it's a much better tax situation than she would have here or in Austria, or she wouldn't do what she's doing.


If you're living here but not domiciled in the UK, we only tax money you make in the UK. "Not domiciled" is a technical term meaning "has donated significant money to the party in power, albeit a pittance of the wealth they have." Here's a short list of the most egregious abusers high-profile people of that definition.
 
2012-07-09 07:30:30 PM  
God Bless that woman. It's the Conservative's (un)American Dream.
 
2012-07-09 07:32:21 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Kanemano: Nearly 1,800 citizens and permanent residents, a record since data was first compiled in 1998, expatriated last year, according to government figures.

That number seems low, since there are over 6 million expat Americans living abroad not to mention all the former permanent residents who return to their home country's I know of at least 10 people that fit these categorizes so 1,800 has got to be a fake #

Sure, that or "Expatriate" has more than one definition.

The most common definition is that of a citizen living in a country other than the one in which they have a citizenship. That's your 6 million people definition. Those people are still US Citizens and pay US taxes, they just live in another country on some arrangement.

The definition the article is using is someone who renounces allegience to the US. That's your 1,800 people definition.


Like my wife, who pays taxes here, living in Switzerland. Your tax bill is adjusted based on what you pay in the country you're living in. You still get to vote, have diplomatic counsel, et al.

People like this lady should be treated like Mr. Dart. Limited visits to the US and told to fark off.
 
2012-07-09 07:45:45 PM  
In my opinion anyone whop renounces their US citizenship for reason of tax avoidance should be banned from entering the country and arrested if they try to do so for any reason and fined $100,000,000 . I don't care if your mother died you left to avoid your legitimate tux obligation your not allowed back.
 
2012-07-09 07:46:18 PM  

Tanukis_Parachute: except for number 1...i've heard of a lot of english bands living and working overseas to reduce their taxes. pink floyd and the rolling stones come to mind. both went to france iirc.


That was more to do with how they made their income. If they hung around Britain they could be staring at upwards of a 95% tax rate (hence George Harrison's "That's one for you, 19 for me" lyric in "Taxman") so you toured/recorded offshore unless you felt like having shiat for money. Gave us some great music and tours, though.
 
2012-07-09 07:55:35 PM  
Meh, when they renounce their citizenship here, they should go on a do not enter list. Turn your back on us, we turn ours on you.

/just my opinion
 
2012-07-09 07:55:58 PM  

grimlock1972: In my opinion anyone whop renounces their US citizenship for reason of tax avoidance should be banned from entering the country and arrested if they try to do so for any reason and fined $100,000,000 . I don't care if your mother died you left to avoid your legitimate tux obligation your not allowed back.


Huh? Lots of hate for things you just don't understand. The vociferously ignorant entertain me no end. My brother renounced his American citizenship about 10 years ago precisely for tax reasons. He's not rich by any definition, but does pretty well. Over $100k. He lives in Germany and was an American citizen. He married a German girl (high school sweethearts, go figure) and has a child there. Any income over $60k is taxed in the US even if made abroad. After paying the German taxes, then the American taxes, there just isn't much left. Everyone lives on a budget and has to cut what they don't need. For him, it was his vote. I'm not sure I blame him.

You think we should fine him $100M and arrest him?
 
2012-07-09 07:56:37 PM  

grimlock1972: In my opinion anyone whop renounces their US citizenship for reason of tax avoidance should be banned from entering the country and arrested if they try to do so for any reason and fined $100,000,000 . I don't care if your mother died you left to avoid your legitimate tux obligation your not allowed back.


So you don't visit 'Merrica. Whoopin big deal. There are a lot of other countries out there.

The only problem is if you are going from 'A' to 'B' and the only convenient route is through one of the 50 states etc.
 
2012-07-09 07:58:40 PM  
In other words, "Thanks for providing me an environment where I could make millions of dollars. Now go fark yourselves. I'm outta here biatches!"
 
2012-07-09 08:08:09 PM  

bootman: Contrabulous Flabtraption: Can a person choose to have no citizenship at all?

I do not know, but I would not do this. If you have no state than your lawyers and accountants could steal from you. What are you going to do? Go to the police?


Seriously. I rob, rape, and murder vacationers at the airport all the time, and the cops are like, well, nothing I can do -- that guy was from Germany.

/whatthehellareyoutalkingabout
 
2012-07-09 08:21:03 PM  

rohar: Huh? Lots of hate for things you just don't understand. The vociferously ignorant entertain me no end. My brother renounced his American citizenship about 10 years ago precisely for tax reasons. He's not rich by any definition, but does pretty well. Over $100k. He lives in Germany and was an American citizen. He married a German girl (high school sweethearts, go figure) and has a child there. Any income over $60k is taxed in the US even if made abroad. After paying the German taxes, then the American taxes, there just isn't much left. Everyone lives on a budget and has to cut what they don't need. For him, it was his vote. I'm not sure I blame him.

You think we should fine him $100M and arrest him?


I'd believe that story if it wasn't for your long history for being a liar.

Now, I was under the impression that you were only taxed on the difference between the local taxes and the federal. So if Germany's income taxes were larger then America's, you wouldn't pay. Anyone know/remember how exactly that works? Is there any sort of adjustment for the standard of living in the actual country?
 
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