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(EFF)   Is your crazy uncle going on about the NSA reading his email in a secret room at the phone company? Don't call the guys in the white coats just yet   (eff.org) divider line 109
    More: Scary, secret room, NSA, Electronic Frontier Foundation, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, warrantless wiretapping, uncles  
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16021 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2012 at 3:30 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-08 10:01:01 AM
Needs a follow-up tag. Been keeping an eye on this story since it popped up years ago. EFF is right, we are have a goddamn right to have this case heard and find out what boundaries NSA must follow. I'm pretty sure the judge will side with the government as they usually do, but this case at least deserves to be fought out.
 
2012-07-08 10:02:44 AM
Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Good times
 
2012-07-08 10:15:36 AM

cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?


Because the telecoms are absolutely terrified of pissing off the government. (hint: they make a lot of money doing contracts for the government and the government regulates their businesses.) Who we should be going after is whomever at the NSA thought this was a good (legal) idea. Same, same for any government agency that did anything remotely similar without first getting a warrant and targeting specific phone lines or internet access for specific individuals.

If the technology does not allow such specification, they had better get to work doing so, because if we just allow them to tap everyone hoping they find something, we've completely given up the 4th Amendment without a fight.
 
2012-07-08 10:34:08 AM

NewportBarGuy: cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Because the telecoms are absolutely terrified of pissing off the government. (hint: they make a lot of money doing contracts for the government and the government regulates their businesses.) Who we should be going after is whomever at the NSA thought this was a good (legal) idea. Same, same for any government agency that did anything remotely similar without first getting a warrant and targeting specific phone lines or internet access for specific individuals.

If the technology does not allow such specification, they had better get to work doing so, because if we just allow them to tap everyone hoping they find something, we've completely given up the 4th Amendment without a fight.


To further complicate the issue, we've been seeing an increasing number of court cases surrounding technology. In the majority of cases, the ruling tends to be in favor of either business or government but not the individual user.

I'm also extremely uncomfortable with those who don't rely on technology to evaluate cases regarding technology. I always picture my grandmother (who thinks the internet is a tool of the devil and predicted in the Bible ).

There have been a few exceptions. For example, the Courts ruling against illegal GPS tracking on cars (which made for great headlines ). Another case between the Oracle case against Google in which the judge was also a programmer and was able to interpret for the jury.
 
2012-07-08 10:55:17 AM

NewportBarGuy: and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.


If you think they have or ever will have any boundaries or regs that they actually obey/respect, you are naive. If any court rules against them there will be someone who takes the fall, and then they will go right back to doing whatever they damn well please.
 
2012-07-08 10:59:05 AM

Majick Thise: If you think they have or ever will have any boundaries or regs that they actually obey/respect, you are naive. If any court rules against them there will be someone who takes the fall, and then they will go right back to doing whatever they damn well please.


Oh, no. I completely understand that. I just want to see them dragged before an actual court and made to sweat for all of 30 seconds. They have, can, and will do whatever the hell they want. I would much prefer a Church Commission for them. Now, that didn't totally stop the CIA from doing evil sh*t but it did make them think a little bit. That's all I can ask for. In the end, they'll do what they want, but they have to be reminded from time to time who they work for.

Bontesla: I'm also extremely uncomfortable with those who don't rely on technology to evaluate cases regarding technology. I always picture my grandmother (who thinks the internet is a tool of the devil and predicted in the Bible ).


Or people like Ted Stevens regulating the internet as a series of tubes. May he rest in pieces.
 
2012-07-08 11:49:06 AM
Welcome to 2002.
 
2012-07-08 12:10:42 PM

NewportBarGuy: we are have a goddamn right to have this case heard and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.


Yeah, that's not going to happen. The NSA is going to read everything, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

Enjoy your police state!
 
2012-07-08 12:11:58 PM
So it's a given that they're doing this. How do we combat it? Tor? PGP for email? I'm not breaking any laws, but what I do isn't their business.
 
2012-07-08 12:26:03 PM
Yeah - watch what you write on the internet. Even here at Fark (oooooOOOOOOOoooooo...)

/Dun dun duuuuuuuun!!!
 
2012-07-08 12:34:58 PM

Sir Cumference the Flatulent: So it's a given that they're doing this. How do we combat it? Tor? PGP for email? I'm not breaking any laws, but what I do isn't their business.


Think for a minute about the shear volume of e-mail... There is no way they look at everything, they can't. They scan for key words what ever they my be, and probably only read stuff with at least two key words. You're right what you do is none of there business, but keep in mind, they have no time to bother with it.
 
2012-07-08 12:37:39 PM
preview is your friend
preview is your friend
preview is your friend

"their" as required.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-07-08 01:05:18 PM
Sir Cumference the Flatulent

PGP keeps message contents private. It doesn't stop traffic analysis. If you send the message "Niitaka yama nobore" and bombs start dropping, their computers will notice even though they don't speak Japanese or understand the code.
 
2012-07-08 01:51:55 PM

ZAZ: Sir Cumference the Flatulent

PGP keeps message contents private. It doesn't stop traffic analysis. If you send the message "Niitaka yama nobore" and bombs start dropping, their computers will notice even though they don't speak Japanese or understand the code.


NSA archives everything until the encryption can be broken.

Isn't this common knowledge? I swear I was reading about this in Wired circa 2002.
 
2012-07-08 02:24:13 PM

foo monkey: Isn't this common knowledge? I swear I was reading about this in Wired circa 2002.


Yeah, I think Fort Meade has something like 17 acres of super computers. They harvest everything and pick through all of it on a prioritized basis. That sh*t is unsat. and should probably be axed. The problem is that the govt. fears we'll b*tch and moan after the next attack when TMZ finds some email about the plot or something. Which, we will b*tch and moan. But, they do this "for our own protection" argument has to be challenged in a real court with a real judge who, most likely will find in favor of the govt, gets to hear both sides and just how far down the rabbit hole we've gone.

Though, they've been doing this since before 9/11. This is cold war stuff they just repurposed for The Global War On Terror. They keep in place a cold-war system to track down every and all threat even with the knowledge that they can't capture everyone and another attack is inevitable. They are just playing the odds. As soon as we kill the human emotions of hate and revenge, then we'll all be safe. Until then, they will continue to monitor us all under the guise that the blanket of freedom they shield us with is worth the price of your perceived individual liberty.
 
2012-07-08 03:32:45 PM
If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.
 
2012-07-08 03:36:36 PM
Do people not know about this yet?

welcome to ten years ago.

The FBI wanted to do this in the 90s with Carnivore, and it got axed because they actually have to obey the law. the NSA doesn't have to worry about such petty concerns.
 
2012-07-08 03:41:37 PM
"Gentlemen don't read each other's mail."

-Henry L. Stimson
U.S. Secretary of War
 
2012-07-08 03:42:44 PM
Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.


The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.
 
2012-07-08 03:49:25 PM
Who will save their souls?
 
2012-07-08 03:50:16 PM
Remember to have the fbi check your computer tonight to ensure it's not infected.
 
2012-07-08 03:51:55 PM

foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.


Just write letters in code like prisoners.
 
2012-07-08 03:54:09 PM
This has been done for a decade, it's kinda late to worry about it now. Especially since the NSA is almost done it's mega facility in Utah, where they intend to intercept the entire internet, as insane as that sounds.

That's why nobody with genuine nefarious intent uses email.
 
2012-07-08 03:54:21 PM

badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.


Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.
 
2012-07-08 03:57:36 PM
This is new only to people who having been paying attention.
 
2012-07-08 03:58:25 PM

cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Good times


Are you seriously suggesting your boy Mitt would do any different?
 
2012-07-08 04:00:26 PM
I heard that "FW:FW:" is the trigger code that will have the Obama Secret Police monitoring all of your internets.

Spread the word!
 
2012-07-08 04:00:42 PM

Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.


Go simple stupid. Fly under the radar by the time see it...bOom, to late.
 
2012-07-08 04:03:50 PM
www.aaanything.net
 
2012-07-08 04:04:02 PM
I remember reading a book (dissecting the hack) where hackers use guild chat in wow to communicate. Is it possible to monitor that?
 
2012-07-08 04:04:31 PM
An ex-college gf went to work for the NSA as an intern. Many years ago.
Just the brief description she was allowed to give me of what she was working on and in production was at the time 10 years ahead of the same thing I was working on when I left grad school three years later.

I still wonder how she got her clearance when the FBI showed up at my dorm room on a saturday night to check me out as a reference. at least they had a sense of humor when they broke up the party.
 
2012-07-08 04:04:57 PM

NewportBarGuy: foo monkey: Isn't this common knowledge? I swear I was reading about this in Wired circa 2002.

Yeah, I think Fort Meade has something like 17 acres of super computers. They harvest everything and pick through all of it on a prioritized basis. That sh*t is unsat. and should probably be axed. The problem is that the govt. fears we'll b*tch and moan after the next attack when TMZ finds some email about the plot or something. Which, we will b*tch and moan. But, they do this "for our own protection" argument has to be challenged in a real court with a real judge who, most likely will find in favor of the govt, gets to hear both sides and just how far down the rabbit hole we've gone.

Though, they've been doing this since before 9/11. This is cold war stuff they just repurposed for The Global War On Terror. They keep in place a cold-war system to track down every and all threat even with the knowledge that they can't capture everyone and another attack is inevitable. They are just playing the odds. As soon as we kill the human emotions of hate and revenge, then we'll all be safe. Until then, they will continue to monitor us all under the guise that the blanket of freedom they shield us with is worth the price of your perceived individual liberty.


The War Against Terror
 
2012-07-08 04:05:11 PM
secure.leftwingbooks.net

/ old news is old
 
2012-07-08 04:10:43 PM
who's taking votes on how long it takes all 3 of the whistle-blowers to have unfortunate accidents?
 
2012-07-08 04:11:36 PM
Imagine the poor bastard who has to listen to some biatches talking about other biatches calling them biatches.
 
2012-07-08 04:13:08 PM

tuna762: I remember reading a book (dissecting the hack) where hackers use guild chat in wow to communicate. Is it possible to monitor that?


And exactly what transport medium does this chat employ? Sub-space comm?
 
2012-07-08 04:13:08 PM
NewportBarGuy: and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.

If you think they have or ever will have any boundaries or regs that they actually obey/respect, you are naive. If any court rules against them there will be someone who takes the fall, and then they will go right back to doing whatever they damn well please.



You said "if any court rules against them". If the Executive branch declares a national security interest, the courts lose jurisdiction -- the case just gets squashed, pretty much regardless of what any court thinks.
 
2012-07-08 04:13:41 PM

Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.


Or, you know, simple bitwise XOR with a shared, data-sized, collection of random bits (or bits only known to the legitimate message participants)... Properly executed book based encryption, even stone age implementations, can't be beaten without the shared codebook. Period. Not even quantum trickery can crack it. If you brute force book based encryption, you'll get the right message eventually, but it will be indistinguishable from every other possible message of the same length for that particular encoding. You get the right answer as well as ALL the wrong ones, and you have no indication of which is which. Even a partial break (by getting a piece of codebook) does nothing to help you crack anything outside of the piece you have. It's literally perfect, in the way that only math can be.

In other words, math says that there is simple unbreakable encryption available to everyone. I'm not sure why the idea offended you in the first place, but there it is.
 
2012-07-08 04:14:00 PM
Think about this before you start freaking out that your email is being read or phone calls are being tapped. How many people are there in the U.S.? (roughly 300 million) How many have email accounts (some people have quite a few) (Butt Ton)? How many people have cell/smart phones? How many phone calls/emails does the average user send/receive a day? Even if NSA has the capability to collect everything, they have to store the data (which I'm sure they don't have enough room to store everything in the computers) and someone has to go through the information to see what's important and what's not. Even if they have some sort of logarithm some has to read the stuff at some point. Use a little bit of logic.

How many people does NSA employ? (a few thousand, maybe) How many are actually trained at going through the stuff? (10,20,30%?) I'm sure not everyone is going through all of that information, someone has to take vacations and spend tax dollars on junkets like the good 'ole GSA folks. Do the math, there is no way in HELL NSA can't see what every person in the U.S. is up to. They probably have some way of prioritizing but come on, if you think you're being monitored you better get your meds straightened out because the next thing the CIA and the old KGB are stalking you also.

One more question, who do you think NSA/government is more worried about? All the citizens within the U.S. or maybe China, Russia, Iran, North Korea and the middle east in general. Again, how much info can they actually store and who is going through all of that crap? So, if you think you're thinking NSA is watching you, maybe you're doing something bad or you're prescription has run out. But let the conspiracy begin
 
2012-07-08 04:15:48 PM

Bucky Katt: cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Good times

Are you seriously suggesting your boy Mitt would do any different?


/facepalm

When you make assumptions, you make yourself look like an ass. Gary Johnson is who I am voting for. And, in case if you were wondering, Obama was not born in Kenya (he is an American citizen who meets the qualifications for becoming President), I am for gay marriage, repealing the Patriot act, halting the war on drugs, focusing illegal immigration enforcement only on gangs.

But, go on, keep on grouping me like an idiot because you do not care to actually read what I post. I understand you: if one does not approve of Obama, then they must be a Republican and/or a racist bigot.

/Mitt Romney could go fark a goat for all I care.
 
2012-07-08 04:24:12 PM

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.


Encrypting is the best way to get your email inspected, as someone upthread pointed out the sheer volume of comm means that they can only scrutinize a few, so they concentrate on keywords and everything out of the ordinary like said encryption and any that show signs of code speak.

/I run a small guitar shop as a hobby and import wood and parts from everywhere, including China, Thailand, and Vietnam, so I always assume my email as well as regular mail is examined, most of my imports from China come via China post through Shenzhen, and so far every one has been opened before I received it, not so with imports from other countries so far.



/now if you will excuse me my tinfoil had needs degaussing...
 
2012-07-08 04:25:02 PM

sno man: You're right what you do is none of there business, but keep in mind, they have no time to bother with it.


They don't have to read it in real time. If they simply capture the data it becomes available for historical searches -- if you pique their interest they can go back and read all your communications, or if they come up with some new search filter they can apply it retroactively to identify you.

If all they did was real-time monitoring it wouldn't be as scary -- still bad, but more limited in scope as you suggest. But that's not the only option with this kind of monitoring.
 
2012-07-08 04:32:00 PM
Their quantum computers > your encryption.
 
2012-07-08 04:32:54 PM
They could change your emails to read something that will get you in trouble. You know, like if you didn't donate enough $$ to the Feds.
 
2012-07-08 04:33:42 PM

Somaticasual: Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.


The NSA will always be completely and totally owned by OTP.
 
2012-07-08 04:34:13 PM

Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.


I wasn't being serious. My point was that we shouldn't have to write our letters in code like prisoners.
 
2012-07-08 04:35:06 PM

foxyshadis: The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.


Yeah... pretty much this.
I was talking with a friend of mine who worked in IT for a few major companies. We were discussing the idea of the government spying on Americans, and I thought I had a decent (far from foolproof, obviously) game plan to make it difficult for people to spy on me. Firefox extensions like "track me not" and all the rest, as well as a few other little things to basically create a lot of background noise that would make it more difficult.

I don't remember exactly all the stuff he said, but by the end of the conversation, it was pretty clear that everything I'm doing amounts to a hill of beans if they had me in their "persons of interest" list. Hell, even my porn searches aren't safe.

Long story short, if you want to keep a message private, meet the recipient in person, give them a letter with coded language only the two of you know, or just don't bother in the first place.

/Not a criminal, just semi paranoid
 
2012-07-08 04:35:36 PM

Pribar: Encrypting is the best way to get your email inspected


First, more email is encrypted than you might think. The vast majority of SMTP systems now support TLS for both server and client operations, so if there are certificates installed at the server it's not uncommon for email to be encrypted in transit, even if the message itself is not. It's common enough that encryption gateways for email (those systems that send you the "click here to decrypt this secure message from your insurance company" sort of emails) have support to bypass that HTTPS-based encryption system if the remote mail host supports TLS.

And more specifically "inspected" is unlikely for any definition of "inspected" that means more than "flagged and archived", at least if you're using decent encryption. Even if you assume that the NSA decryption techniques are a decade ahead of academic research, and that they have huge computing resources to throw at the task, the capacity of their decryption capabilities would still be very low compared to the volume of encrypted communications on the Internet.
 
2012-07-08 04:40:03 PM
Seems like this story has multiple angles.

Link
 
2012-07-08 04:41:20 PM
I hope they like cat pictures.
 
2012-07-08 04:43:03 PM

badhatharry: Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.

I wasn't being serious. My point was that we shouldn't have to write our letters in code like prisoners.


Fair enough, mine was mostly snark but we're actually on the same page on your latter point. I don't agree with the NSA spying on it's own countrymen, and hope they come to their senses as their own workers revolt against the idea. We need the NSA, and it does serve a vital function in national security, but ECHELON is not a viable or ethical solution to the disparity of intelligence that technology products.
 
2012-07-08 04:52:16 PM
FTFA: The three former NSA employees with declarations in EFF's brief are were William E. Binney, Thomas A. Drake, and J. Kirk Wiebe. All three were found dead yesterday due to natural causes.

FTFT
 
2012-07-08 04:56:29 PM
What is everyone emailing their friends about that they're so afraid of the NSA reading it? I sent an email recently about a douchebag former boss, I guess this is going on my "permanent record"? If they do read it, I hope they shut him down for tax evasion and breaking labor laws.
 
2012-07-08 04:56:55 PM
Oh, and...

Dick Gordon: National Security Agency.
Martin Bishop: Ah. You're the guys I hear breathing on the other end of my phone.
Dick Gordon: No, that's the FBI. We're not chartered for domestic surveillance.
Martin Bishop: Oh, I see. You just overthrow governments. Set up friendly dictators.
Dick Gordon: No, that's the CIA. We protect our government's communications, we try to break the other fella's codes. We're the good guys, Marty.
Martin Bishop: Gee, I can't tell you what a relief that is... Dick.

qph.cf.quoracdn.net
This is so cool...
 
2012-07-08 05:08:57 PM
It's the ability to look back that should scare the crap out of you. Everyone has something(s) in their past they would rather not become generally well known (and if you don't, you need to get out more). Let's say you dabble in something or other years ago, but after maturing a bit, you clean up, decide to fight the good fight and succeed in a run for elective office, or gain some other position of prominence. Don't think for a minute there's not then going to be a file on you filled with whatever could be gleaned from an exhaustive search of your archived data, your friends, associates, etc. You're not squeaky clean (and even if you are, people you care about are not), so there's some dirt there. When the day comes that you can be useful, you will be approached, just a little at first, some small matter, something that can be compromised away in the face of a disclosure threat. You'll acquiesce of course (these guys are pros), and now the ice is broken. It'll get easier and easier to compromise as you get older, more comfortable, more invested in the system. Besides, by then, you're in so deep, you've gotten to like the stench.
 
2012-07-08 05:09:24 PM

tuna762: I remember reading a book (dissecting the hack) where hackers use guild chat in wow to communicate. Is it possible to monitor that?


/facepalm

OF COURSE it's monitored. And recorded. And archived. Reporting other people for spam, racist remarks, real-life threats and in-game harassment wouldn't be very effective if Actiblizzard didn't have server logs of chat that they could go back and examine, now would it?

Under the hood, it's all IRC. About the 3rd most obvious communications protocol in the world, after flying a flag upside down and those fark-me eyes that subby's mom was giving me in the bar the other night.
 
2012-07-08 05:10:50 PM

Ikahoshi: This has been done for a decade, it's kinda late to worry about it now.


I think you're underestimating by a decade or two. At least.
 
2012-07-08 05:16:19 PM

Bucky Katt: cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Good times

Are you seriously suggesting your boy Mitt would do any different?


Probably, but Mitt wasn't the one who said:

"When I am president we won't work in secret to avoid honoring our laws and Constitution, we will be straight with the American people and true to our values."

Oct. 4, 2007 Barack Obama

Mind you I'm no fan of Mitt. But this is just another broken promise on Obama's part.
 
2012-07-08 05:17:21 PM
But.... but... if you're not breaking the law, you should not have to worry about privacy
 
2012-07-08 05:18:11 PM

profplump: sno man: You're right what you do is none of there business, but keep in mind, they have no time to bother with it.

They don't have to read it in real time. If they simply capture the data it becomes available for historical searches -- if you pique their interest they can go back and read all your communications, or if they come up with some new search filter they can apply it retroactively to identify you.

If all they did was real-time monitoring it wouldn't be as scary -- still bad, but more limited in scope as you suggest. But that's not the only option with this kind of monitoring.


So what you are saying is not unlike the internet, everything you type is there somewhere for ever. This is a lesson many people should learn.
 
2012-07-08 05:31:29 PM

Majick Thise: NewportBarGuy: and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.

If you think they have or ever will have any boundaries or regs that they actually obey/respect, you are naive. If any court rules against them there will be someone who takes the fall, and then they will go right back to doing whatever they damn well please.


All though I agree with NewportBarGuy, sadly, it is my understanding that the NSA was created to circumvent the restrictions placed on the CIA. Its' purpose is to evade or ignore restrictions, regulations, and boundaries.
 
2012-07-08 05:45:11 PM
There seems to be a lot of discussion on this thread regarding the lack of time on the part of agents to read or scan all the data that is captured. I'll concede that what I know about technology could fit in a thimble, but why would a person read that data? Why wouldn't they create an algorithm to sort down the data and determine what deserves a closer look?
 
2012-07-08 05:58:14 PM
The three former NSA employees with declarations in EFF's brief are William E. Binney, Thomas A. Drake, and J. Kirk Wiebe.

It's astonishing that Thomas Drake would be willing to stick his head in the lions mouth again. He has already been persecuted by both the Bush and Obama administrations.

The Obama Administration's aggressive war on whistleblowers suffered a humiliating setback on June 9 when former NSA official Thomas Drake accepted a misdemeanor plea agreement for exceeding his authorized use of a government computer.

The Department of Justice had been pursuing Drake for alleged violations of the Espionage Act that might have sent him to prison for up to 35 years. But the government withdrew the evidence supporting several of the central charges after a judge ruled Drake would not be able to defend himself unless the government revealed details about one of the National Security Agency's telecommunications collection programs.

On two other counts, documents the government had claimed were classified have either been shown to be labeled unclassified when Drake accessed them or have since been declassified. Faced with the prospect of trying to convict a man for leaking unclassified information, the government frantically crafted a plea deal in the last days before the case was due to go to trial.

Aside from the problems the government had with classified evidence, it faced a real challenge proving Drake believed the information would cause the US harm, as the Espionage Act requires.

He gathered several of the charged documents in support of an Inspector General complaint for which he argued the NSA spent $1 billion outsourcing a program it could have done better in-house for $3 million. Long before the case crumbled, the government tried to prevent Drake from explaining his Inspector General complaint to the jury, but the judge ruled against the government.


Yet he's still willing to step up yet again and expose the Government's illegal actions. Good man.
 
2012-07-08 05:59:06 PM

Lunaville: There seems to be a lot of discussion on this thread regarding the lack of time on the part of agents to read or scan all the data that is captured. I'll concede that what I know about technology could fit in a thimble, but why would a person read that data? Why wouldn't they create an algorithm to sort down the data and determine what deserves a closer look?


You are correct. This is indeed what happens.
 
2012-07-08 06:08:51 PM
There's nothing in this article that Gene Hackman didn't already tell us in 1998

/seriously underrated movie
 
2012-07-08 06:09:31 PM

Lunaville: All though I agree with NewportBarGuy, sadly, it is my understanding that the NSA was created to circumvent the restrictions placed on the CIA. Its' purpose is to evade or ignore restrictions, regulations, and boundaries.


The NSA was created out of Army Intelligence after WW2, in the same restructurings that created the Air Force. Its sole purpose until the fall of the Soviet Union was to monitor communist communications and protect classified communications, but when the Cold War ended it branched out... much like the rest of the military.

The only positive so far is that they're so deep in counter-terrorism that they couldn't give a shiat if you're having an affair with your secretary or hookups on craigslist, or swapping dirty pictures and buying scheduled meds from Canada, but someday Congress will come to them and say, we've created a new law that criminalizes extramarital sex and porn and we need to know who's violating it, or the DEA will demand the names of anyone who's ever bought anything from overseas. Having it all in one place is a godsend for agencies that would otherwise have to subpoena individual ISPs with varying retention policies. From that point it's only a matter of time until anyone who doesn't like you will have the ability to get a court order to embarrass and ostracize you later in life.

You only have to look at the self-aggrandizing AWs currently in Congress to realize how likely that is.
 
2012-07-08 06:19:35 PM

zaiustheape: who's taking votes on how long it takes all 3 of the whistle-blowers to have unfortunate accidents?


Back when they were still trying to work within the system, all three of the whistle blowers received visits from armed Federal agents designed to intimidate them.

In July 2007, armed FBI agents raided the homes of Roark, Binney, and Wiebe, the same people who had filed the complaint with the DoD Inspector General in 2002. Binney claims they pointed guns at his wife and himself. Wiebe said it reminded him of the Soviet Union. None of these people were charged with any crimes.
 
2012-07-08 06:24:22 PM
I really hope they enjoyed my conversation with my brother this morning, we had a heated argument about who's had the biggest shiat!
 
2012-07-08 06:40:27 PM

MauiMunchieMan808: I really hope they enjoyed my conversation with my brother this morning, we had a heated argument about who's had the biggest shiat!


Oh, we did. We took a vote, and declared it a tie. :)

Your friends,
The NSA
 
2012-07-08 06:45:02 PM

BullBearMS: zaiustheape: who's taking votes on how long it takes all 3 of the whistle-blowers to have unfortunate accidents?

Back when they were still trying to work within the system, all three of the whistle blowers received visits from armed Federal agents designed to intimidate them.

In July 2007, armed FBI agents raided the homes of Roark, Binney, and Wiebe, the same people who had filed the complaint with the DoD Inspector General in 2002. Binney claims they pointed guns at his wife and himself. Wiebe said it reminded him of the Soviet Union. None of these people were charged with any crimes.


A lot of things are reminding me of the Soviet Union.
 
2012-07-08 07:35:10 PM

neomunk: Or, you know, simple bitwise XOR with a shared, data-sized, collection of random bits (or bits only known to the legitimate message participants)... Properly executed book based encryption, even stone age implementations, can't be beaten without the shared codebook. Period.


But it can be beaten with it; it's only as good as the people using it. (Which, in fairness, is true of any other encryption scheme as well.)

Wikipedia reading: The Venona project
"Somebody who was working for the manufacturers of Soviet secret-communication materials had reused pages of some of the one-time pads in other pads, which were then used for other secret messages. This defeated the purpose of the one-time pad, which provides perfect security when each page is used exactly once and then disposed of."
 
2012-07-08 07:42:15 PM
In other news, "Person of Interest" has been renewed.
 
2012-07-08 07:50:32 PM

GAT_00: NewportBarGuy: we are have a goddamn right to have this case heard and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The NSA is going to read everything, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

Enjoy your police state!


Enjoy your government health care, brought to you by the same police state.
 
2012-07-08 08:08:14 PM

You Idiots: GAT_00: NewportBarGuy: we are have a goddamn right to have this case heard and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The NSA is going to read everything, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

Enjoy your police state!

Enjoy your government health care, brought to you by the same police state.


Huh?
 
2012-07-08 08:35:01 PM
This is not a secret code phrase designed to activate all the sleeper agents who read Fark.

/Blessent mon cœur d'une langeur monotone
 
2012-07-08 08:46:17 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail."

-Henry L. Stimson
U.S. Secretary of War


So I have been drinking. remember we are in a thread about what is certainly a search. Two big quotes from Timson are

_____ Gentlemen don't read each other's mail.
_____ The only deadly sin I know is cynicism.

The first statement should be true. There are the base elements among us. However, we should not be sucked down to their level. I shouldn't have to encrypt shiat because gentlemen don't read each other's mail.

The people most likely to embody and recognize such principals would be the Virginia gentleman farmers who founded our country. There, like a thumb in the eye of decorum and civilized behavior, sits the 4th amendment. The base elements will prevail. I was raised in a time and place where you could with a straight face say "crazy" talk like Stimson.

When the fark did we start running schools like business. Why can't we just teach people the classics; leave to employers to teach their peculiar principals; and trust that the truth will out.
 
2012-07-08 08:48:31 PM

sno man: So what you are saying is not unlike the internet, everything you type is there somewhere for ever. This is a lesson many people should learn.


People should take more care to secure their communications.

But that's no reason we shouldn't try to get the NSA to stop this crap.
 
2012-07-08 08:52:33 PM
Wood thay be abel to spel chek my messeges for me and fix dem?
 
2012-07-08 09:01:09 PM

profplump: sno man: So what you are saying is not unlike the internet, everything you type is there somewhere for ever. This is a lesson many people should learn.

People should take more care to secure their communications.

But that's no reason we shouldn't try to get the NSA to stop this crap.


anyone with any interest in getting a job, let alone career, ever... should be all over reining in what they share on the interwebs, period.
 
2012-07-08 09:05:03 PM

greyw1980: So I have been drinking.


Drunk or not, You've got some cogent thoughts. I was reading your profile, and saw that you trimmed the tree. Good on you! You helped make history.

If they taught the classics in school, then the government would have to deal with an educated public. They don't want that. Better, we eat our bread and watch our circuses.
 
2012-07-08 09:08:50 PM

upndn: Wood thay be abel to spel chek my messeges for me and fix dem?


Hahahahaha! That's fantastic.

I'd actually be OK with that.

Needed some levity on this depressing topic.
 
2012-07-08 09:12:29 PM
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-07-08 09:22:33 PM
this is funny...
 
2012-07-08 09:23:20 PM

sno man: anyone with any interest in getting a job, let alone career, ever... should be all over reining in what they share on the interwebs, period.


I'm pretty sure society will come to a new understanding of how privacy works and what is and is not acceptable in "public" places on the Interwebs. If it didn't there would be whole generations of unemployable people, which seems unlikely.

/ And then we'll probably back-step a bit once people realize that real-life is and always has been much more anonymous than life online, in spite of what old people have been saying about the Internet for decades.
 
2012-07-08 10:03:27 PM
I think the entire f**king world should be an open book. Let's put everything right out there and just get it over with, including thoughts.
 
2012-07-08 10:27:46 PM

JonnyG: You Idiots: GAT_00: NewportBarGuy: we are have a goddamn right to have this case heard and find out what boundaries NSA must follow.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The NSA is going to read everything, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

Enjoy your police state!

Enjoy your government health care, brought to you by the same police state.

Huh?


You'll catch on soon enough.
 
2012-07-08 11:20:02 PM

Boris S. Wort: This is not a secret code phrase designed to activate all the sleeper agents who read Fark.

/Blessent mon cœur d'une langeur monotone


I don't know what you said but, I bet its funny.
 
2012-07-08 11:25:26 PM

fusillade762: Bucky Katt: cman: Remember when Obama voted for immunity for telecoms?

Good times

Are you seriously suggesting your boy Mitt would do any different?

Probably, but Mitt wasn't the one who said:

"When I am president we won't work in secret to avoid honoring our laws and Constitution, we will be straight with the American people and true to our values."

Oct. 4, 2007 Barack Obama

Mind you I'm no fan of Mitt. But this is just another broken promise on Obama's part.


OK, Obama broke a promise. Now what?
 
2012-07-08 11:28:38 PM

DandD: How many people does NSA employ? (a few thousand, maybe) How many are actually trained at going through the stuff? (10,20,30%?) I'm sure not everyone is going through all of that information, someone has to take vacations and spend tax dollars on junkets like the good 'ole GSA folks. Do the math, there is no way in HELL NSA can't see what every person in the U.S. is up to. They probably have some way of prioritizing but come on, if you think you're being monitored you better get your meds straightened out because the next thing the CIA and the old KGB are stalking you also.


This is why every email I send contains the words 'bomb', 'Allah', 'martyr', 'paradise', 'infidel', and the coordinates of a random US city. I feel more special if my mail is being read.
 
2012-07-09 01:38:32 AM

zaiustheape: who's taking votes on how long it takes all 3 of the whistle-blowers to have unfortunate accidents?


They won't have unfortunate accidents. They will be struck with huge feelings of guilt that compel them to kill themselves by shooting themselves in the back of the head... with a shotgun...3 times.
 
2012-07-09 01:56:03 AM
This is what happens when you vote for Democrats or Republicans.
 
2012-07-09 04:12:07 AM

You Idiots: Enjoy your government health care, brought to you by the same police state.


Health care and health care insurance are not even close to remotely similar to the same thing.
 
2012-07-09 06:24:15 AM

greyw1980: So I have been drinking. remember we are in a thread about what is certainly a search. Two big quotes from Timson are

_____ Gentlemen don't read each other's mail.
_____ The only deadly sin I know is cynicism.

The first statement should be true. There are the base elements among us. However, we should not be sucked down to their level. I shouldn't have to encrypt shiat because gentlemen don't read each other's mail.

The people most likely to embody and recognize such principals would be the Virginia gentleman farmers who founded our country. There, like a thumb in the eye of decorum and civilized behavior, sits the 4th amendment. The base elements will prevail. I was raised in a time and place where you could with a straight face say "crazy" talk like Stimson.

When the fark did we start running schools like business. Why can't we just teach people the classics; leave to employers to teach their peculiar principals; and trust that the truth will out.


True gentleman no longer exist in the sense you speak of. Oh sure you find them here and there mostly among the poor. The rich high society 'gentleman' are no longer trustworthy. Maybe they never were but they used to try very hard to hide it if they weren't. Now being the greediest of the greedy bastards is a thing they are proud of.

If being a cynic is a deadly sin I know a whole lot of farkers that need to re-examine their priorities. Me included.
 
2012-07-09 08:46:15 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail."

-Henry L. Stimson
U.S. Secretary of War


Stimson was a naive fool when he made that statement. Certainly, as Secretary of War during WWII he had no problem with it.
 
2012-07-09 08:54:16 AM

Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.


Use manually generated one time pads.

Completely and forever unbreakable, provided you follow the few simple rules of one time pad use. The NSA will never be able to break your message.

You have to manually generate the pads, btw, because otherwise you open up a possible avenue for attack: Either you have a cryptographically secure electronic RNG (either hardware or software), but the computer used to store and use the pads is potentially insecure, or you use some pseudorandom process to generate them, and the pads themselves are insecure.

Quickest way I've found is to roll a handful of 10-sided dice, and type the result using a manual typewriter (not an electric one!) and use a well-worn fabric ribbon. If you use blank 2 part carbonless forms, you get precisely two copies and you don't have to worry about burning the carbons. If you use a well-worn ribbon, it's unlikely that they can get any useful sequence out of it, as you'll have layers and layers of overstrikes, but you can always just burn the ribbon after you've generated a series of pads anyway.
 
2012-07-09 08:59:20 AM

dittybopper: Somaticasual: badhatharry: foxyshadis: Subby might be the only person around who's never heard of this before.

RexTalionis: If you're concerned, then you should've been encrypting your emails.

The NSA probably has a huge database of cracked 1024-bit private keys, and larger ones that were subject to various flaws over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the major US SSL cert companies have been compelled to hand over their private keys. All they have to do is archive everything until they crack the cert, then they can go back and read everything.

Just write letters in code like prisoners.

Using grid ciphers and single replacement codes to hide from an agency whose purpose it is to crack codes 1000x more complex. Brilliant concept.

Use manually generated one time pads.

Completely and forever unbreakable, provided you follow the few simple rules of one time pad use. The NSA will never be able to break your message.

You have to manually generate the pads, btw, because otherwise you open up a possible avenue for attack: Either you have a cryptographically secure electronic RNG (either hardware or software), but the computer used to store and use the pads is potentially insecure, or you use some pseudorandom process to generate them, and the pads themselves are insecure.

Quickest way I've found is to roll a handful of 10-sided dice, and type the result using a manual typewriter (not an electric one!) and use a well-worn fabric ribbon. If you use blank 2 part carbonless forms, you get precisely two copies and you don't have to worry about burning the carbons. If you use a well-worn ribbon, it's unlikely that they can get any useful sequence out of it, as you'll have layers and layers of overstrikes, but you can always just burn the ribbon after you've generated a series of pads anyway.


I just speak ig-pay atin-lay. Good luck breaking THAT, NSA.
 
2012-07-09 09:05:15 AM

GoldenEagle: neomunk: Or, you know, simple bitwise XOR with a shared, data-sized, collection of random bits (or bits only known to the legitimate message participants)... Properly executed book based encryption, even stone age implementations, can't be beaten without the shared codebook. Period.

But it can be beaten with it; it's only as good as the people using it. (Which, in fairness, is true of any other encryption scheme as well.)

Wikipedia reading: The Venona project
"Somebody who was working for the manufacturers of Soviet secret-communication materials had reused pages of some of the one-time pads in other pads, which were then used for other secret messages. This defeated the purpose of the one-time pad, which provides perfect security when each page is used exactly once and then disposed of."


They broke the cardinal rule of *ONE TIME* pad use: They used them more than once.

Of course, that was almost 70 years ago.

The new problem isn't re-use: People who are going to use one time pads are (hopefully!) smart enough not to do that sort of thing again. The new danger is that computers generally aren't secure enough to keep pads and messages secure:

Cuban Agent Communications: Failure of a Perfect System

You don't want to be using a computer to generate the pads, or store them, or to encrypt or decrypt. If you must use some form of electronic communication, a best practice from a security standpoint is to encrypt manually, using paper and pencil, and then transcribe the encrypted message into electronic form and send it, then destroy the paper and the one time pad page you used to encrypt by burning, and crushing the ashes.

Decryption would be the opposite: You transcribe the electronic message onto paper, then manually decrypt, and similarly destroy the paper and the OTP page used to decrypt the message.
 
2012-07-09 11:09:40 AM

dittybopper: Decryption would be the opposite: You transcribe the electronic message onto paper, then manually decrypt, and similarly destroy the paper and the OTP page used to decrypt the message.


i.ytimg.com
BESURETODRINKYO....
 
2012-07-09 11:27:45 AM

dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail."

-Henry L. Stimson
U.S. Secretary of War

Stimson was a naive fool when he made that statement. Certainly, as Secretary of War during WWII he had no problem with it.


You're right of course, with this one big caveat; when you have probable cause. The powers that be have no business, nor right to peruse my mail.

This is akin to the government telling everyone in America to empty their pockets.

Also, your OTP instructions are impeccable. Let's see the government outlaw those.

/drink your Ovaltine
 
2012-07-09 11:28:51 AM

stonicus: dittybopper: Decryption would be the opposite: You transcribe the electronic message onto paper, then manually decrypt, and similarly destroy the paper and the OTP page used to decrypt the message.

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]
BESURETODRINKYO....


Dammit!

/GMTA
 
2012-07-09 11:38:01 AM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Also, your OTP instructions are impeccable.


They should be. I put a lot of thought into it, I used to be in the signals intelligence business, and I'm a student of the history and practice of SIGINT and COMINT.
 
2012-07-09 11:51:27 AM

dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Also, your OTP instructions are impeccable.

They should be. I put a lot of thought into it, I used to be in the signals intelligence business, and I'm a student of the history and practice of SIGINT and COMINT.


Yup, I know. I have you FARKied as "Smart, Crypto, Navy". I had to teach the use of OTP's to my Combat Engineer unit. Basic stuff ("down, right, down" and "down, right, right") we were grunts, ya gotta "KISS".
 
2012-07-09 12:09:27 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Also, your OTP instructions are impeccable.

They should be. I put a lot of thought into it, I used to be in the signals intelligence business, and I'm a student of the history and practice of SIGINT and COMINT.

Yup, I know. I have you FARKied as "Smart, Crypto, Navy". I had to teach the use of OTP's to my Combat Engineer unit. Basic stuff ("down, right, down" and "down, right, right") we were grunts, ya gotta "KISS".


I was Army, not Navy.
 
2012-07-09 12:14:16 PM

dittybopper: I was Army, not Navy.


Correction made. Dunno why I had Navy. Just the fact that I had "Navy" and "Smart" in the same sentence should have tipped me off. :)
 
2012-07-09 12:31:39 PM

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: I was Army, not Navy.

Correction made. Dunno why I had Navy. Just the fact that I had "Navy" and "Smart" in the same sentence should have tipped me off. :)


Yeah, well, it's not like Army and Smart go together either.

On a practical note, though, I'd point out that even "insecure" methods of encryption can be secure if the message is small enough and the key large enough. Does "DRHHUQ" stand for "KISS ME", "KILL ME", "BALLET", or any other message with that same pattern? Too small a sample to tell. In fact, too small a sample to even guess that it's a monoalphabetic substitution.

For short messages, provided you change the keys and strips often enough, even a simple strip cipher would be reasonably secure.
 
2012-07-09 07:36:54 PM

dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: I was Army, not Navy.

Correction made. Dunno why I had Navy. Just the fact that I had "Navy" and "Smart" in the same sentence should have tipped me off. :)

Yeah, well, it's not like Army and Smart go together either.

On a practical note, though, I'd point out that even "insecure" methods of encryption can be secure if the message is small enough and the key large enough. Does "DRHHUQ" stand for "KISS ME", "KILL ME", "BALLET", or any other message with that same pattern? Too small a sample to tell. In fact, too small a sample to even guess that it's a monoalphabetic substitution.

For short messages, provided you change the keys and strips often enough, even a simple strip cipher would be reasonably secure.


Better yet, hide your message in data that nobody would even think is a message. The best way to transmit a secure message is to transmit something that nobody would look at in the first place.
 
2012-07-09 08:39:44 PM

DrPainMD: dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: I was Army, not Navy.

Correction made. Dunno why I had Navy. Just the fact that I had "Navy" and "Smart" in the same sentence should have tipped me off. :)

Yeah, well, it's not like Army and Smart go together either.

On a practical note, though, I'd point out that even "insecure" methods of encryption can be secure if the message is small enough and the key large enough. Does "DRHHUQ" stand for "KISS ME", "KILL ME", "BALLET", or any other message with that same pattern? Too small a sample to tell. In fact, too small a sample to even guess that it's a monoalphabetic substitution.

For short messages, provided you change the keys and strips often enough, even a simple strip cipher would be reasonably secure.

Better yet, hide your message in data that nobody would even think is a message. The best way to transmit a secure message is to transmit something that nobody would look at in the first place.


Steganography is great, but in practice, once your opponent figures it out, you're toast unless you encrypted it before embedding it.

The methods of it, having done a few myself, is sometimes quite clever. Sometimes, I would send a message. Sometimes, someone else would send me one. Every method, clever or not, realistic or not. Even methods that you wouldn't even think of as secret. Tell me if you find the secret in this paragraph.
 
2012-07-10 01:02:26 AM

DrPainMD: Better yet, hide your message in data that nobody would even think is a message. The best way to transmit a secure message is to transmit something that nobody would look at in the first place.


Literally the only thing the Internet does is deliver messages.
 
2012-07-10 02:15:14 PM

profplump: DrPainMD: Better yet, hide your message in data that nobody would even think is a message. The best way to transmit a secure message is to transmit something that nobody would look at in the first place.

Literally the only thing the Internet does is deliver messages.


Sexy, sexy messages.
 
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