the ha ha guy: Here's an even more in-depth (but long) article that speaks volumes about this guy's true motives:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants- to -build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/

"In July 1992, hoping to scare the hell out of a kid who'd been messing with his girlfriend's little brother, police reports say, Salman donned a Raiders T-shirt and fired five rounds from a .38 special into the kid's house. The boy's mother was home at the time; she told police that one of the bullets nearly grazed her hairline."

"In 1994, Salman had filed paperwork claiming that he belonged to the Embassy of God. That meant, the document claimed, that he didn't need to follow United States law."

"[In 2002,]The Church of All Nations hired him to be its pastor. [...] According to a lawsuit the church's leadership filed against Salman, one of the new pastor's first moves was to put up a sign saying "Harvest Christian Fellowship." That wasn't what they'd bargained for: They were the Church of All Nations, and proud of it. [...] They voted to oust him, and when he fought back and refused to leave, they filed a "forcible detainer" to have him evicted. The judge granted it."

"The city may have to pay for our church to be built," Michael Salman says. The excitement in his voice is unmistakable."

O FFS...

Igor Jakovsky: wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?

Its all relative to the size of your steeple.

Niiiiiiiiice

/Love Manson

Armadillo Slim:
If all this guy wanted to do was worship in peace, he would have gotten this thing zoned properly and obtained the waivers to avoid the taxes. But attention whores need attention to drum up business.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

And we have a winner here....

loonatic112358: hubiestubert: O FFS...

yea, seems like he's an ass who'll cover himself in whatever it takes to justify his actions

Seems like he's maybe trying to make himself into the next Creflo Dollar, Crouch Family or Osteens, especialy Osteens since that church did start off in the middle of a neighborhood

When I was working at the Glendale Arena, we had more than a few of Osteens events. The whole organization were assclowns. Just entitled asshats who expected the Arena and everyone in it to kiss their asses. Never a please, never a thank you, always "WE NEED..."

Mohammed Ali is relatively local, and he and his wife came in for concerts and a few games every year, and THAT guy got the red carpet rolled out, but he was always so gracious that you bent over backwards for them.

Igor Jakovsky: Trance750: Igor Jakovsky: wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?

Its all relative to the size of your steeple.

Niiiiiiiiice

/Love Manson

And now that song is also stuck in my head

Could be worse. You could have Air Supply stuck in your head

the ha ha guy: Here's an even more in-depth (but long) article that speaks volumes about this guy's true motives:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants- to -build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/

"In July 1992, hoping to scare the hell out of a kid who'd been messing with his girlfriend's little brother, police reports say, Salman donned a Raiders T-shirt and fired five rounds from a .38 special into the kid's house. The boy's mother was home at the time; she told police that one of the bullets nearly grazed her hairline."

"In 1994, Salman had filed paperwork claiming that he belonged to the Embassy of God. That meant, the document claimed, that he didn't need to follow United States law."

"[In 2002,]The Church of All Nations hired him to be its pastor. [...] According to a lawsuit the church's leadership filed against Salman, one of the new pastor's first moves was to put up a sign saying "Harvest Christian Fellowship." That wasn't what they'd bargained for: They were the Church of All Nations, and proud of it. [...] They voted to oust him, and when he fought back and refused to leave, they filed a "forcible detainer" to have him evicted. The judge granted it."

"The city may have to pay for our church to be built," Michael Salman says. The excitement in his voice is unmistakable."

OK...so my Spidey Sense that this was some sort of "sovereign citizen" nutter in the "Unregistered Church Movement" IS pretty spot on then :P (As if the "WE'RE the REAL j00s" bit in the Statement of Faith of his church-cum-"bible study" didn't give a hint of that--I've NEVER seen that outside of some truly nutty churches associated with "sovereign citizen" stuff)

It looks like (from the Phoenix New Times article) that this guy had a history of drive-by shootings in gang activity, and (whilst in prison) got introduced to a form of dominionism-flavoured "sovereign citizen" theory promoted by the Embassy of Heaven (basically claiming that they're citizens of the Kingdom of God or Heaven, as a result do not have US citizenship, and further claim they have essentially diplomatic immunity--it's rarer than it was in the 90s, largely because judges have tended to legally biatchslap anyone presenting with "Embassy of Heaven" driver's licenses and bogus liens).

His "ordination" is literally through a mail-order correspondence course operated by a dominionist ordination mill; one of his first acts as a pastor was the attempted steeplejacking of ANOTHER small pentecostal church (calling itself the "Church of All Nations") which ended in a functional split of the congregation and his forcible ouster; AND he apparently bought the property (in the middle of a residential neighbourhood) for the express purpose of building a religious compound on it come hell or high water.

(And apparently he HAS registered with the state--as "Harvest Christian Community Church"; he was stupid, let the original registration of "Harvest Christian Fellowship" lapse, and so a neighbour kindly took the registration as a polite "Fark you, quit shiatting up the neighbourhood kthx". Probably would be worth looking into Arizona non-profit registration records...)

The church also apparently had a former time-sharing arrangement with the First Arabic Baptist Church of Phoenix but wore out its welcome there; interestingly NOT noted in either the Phoenix New Times article or elsewhere--apparently the membership was already large enough when they were sharing space with FABC that they had church buses running. (The Phoenix New Times has noted the ACTUAL size of the congregation is closer to 70 people.)

In other words, just the very sort of fine, upstanding asshat you'd picture doing something like this.

(And no, I seriously doubt even beer or ribs to the neighbours would mollify them. He pretty much flat out told the neighbours in the HOA meeting his intentions (right up to and including nightly services, a "Christian gym", AND a "Christian day care" and school) in almost the same way that the megachurch I escaped did to its neighbourhood, and thus inspired the neighbourhood to fight back; not only that, but his church is one of those weird "Hebrew Christian" cultural-appropriating neopente Jesus Camper affairs where they hold mock "Messianic" Passover seders and other such foolishness...I'm pretty damn sure he doesn't believe in beer, and even the ribs are iffy. :P)

Sabyen91: Hell, one of his neighbors has a restraining order against this guy.

Maybe you think that's not real Christian, but you'd be surprised how many people had restraining orders against Jesus.

St_Francis_P: Sabyen91: Hell, one of his neighbors has a restraining order against this guy.

Maybe you think that's not real Christian, but you'd be surprised how many people had restraining orders against Jesus.

To be fair, Jesus Ramirez is kind of a jerk. I mean, he's OK at a party, but you don't want him dating your sister...

Sabyen91: Great Porn Dragon: (And no, I seriously doubt even beer or ribs to the neighbours would mollify them. He pretty much flat out told the neighbours in the HOA meeting his intentions

Hell, one of his neighbors has a restraining order against this guy.

That too, but I didn't want to spoil the ENTIRE article--was just noting that from the very beginning this guy showed himself as a professional Jesus Camper Asshat, Bar None. (After Preacher Boy found out one of his neighbours was especially fast at calling the fire marshal, he pretty much threatened the guy, hence leading to restraining order.)

desertgeek: hubiestubert:
When I was working at the Glendale Arena, we had more than a few of Osteens events. The whole organization were assclowns. Just entitled asshats who expected the Arena and everyone in it to kiss their asses. Never a please, never a thank you, always "WE NEED..."

Mohammed Ali is relatively local, and he and his wife came in for concerts and a few games every year, and THAT guy got the red carpet rolled out, but he was always so gracious that you bent over backwards for them.

This is my complete lack of surprise...

/My former history professor is working on an Ali biography
//Calls Ali the nicest man he's ever met

He is somewhat delicate now, and his wife is fiercely protective, but the whole Arena staff is too. He is the kind of guy who will talk to every fan in turn, even if he's tired or not feeling well. He is just the epitome of class.

FormatSlacker: Don't they already require permits for public gatherings? But you also need permits for private gatherings of 15 people on a huge private property? Who cares about 'freedom of religion,' when did we completely lose freedom of association and the right to peaceably assemble?

Dude, this is FARK where theyd f*ck freedom to death in the gallbladder to get a good "gotcha" in on some chuchy clown. These sort of dorks are the very reason rights have eroded.

67 code violations and bein' a Xtian ain't one

Gelatinous: Jesus Loves Fire Hazards

Jesus love me, this I know
For the TV preacher told me so.

Said I should mail him some dough
Or deep in Hell, I will go

Search for Western Theological Seminary: Warning: this site may be compromised.


Oh, and these are apparently batshiat crazy Xtians, like the Branch Davidians.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Lots of idiots in this thread who are simply showing their anti-religious bigotry. The guy has 4.5 acres to accommodate parking, so the "crowded street argument is destroyed". Also if you think an extra 15 cars driving down your street within the span of a few minutes, 6 times a week is disruptive to you in any way, you're an even bigger moron.

"A January 4, 2010, ruling made it clear that the Salmans are not prohibited from running a church or hosting worship services on their property, but if they do so, they must be in compliance with fire and zoning codes."

For 15 people, farkers. 15. Let that sink in. This doesn't sound a little odd to you? You people look entirely unreasonable, and blatantly hateful of anyone having anything to do with religion.. as usual.

You know how I know you didn't read the thread or look at the case from anything but the Daily Mail's spin?

ongbok: genner: The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

I think the reason why they are throwing the book at him is because if in the future they have to do the same thing to a group of Muslims or another religion and get accused of bigotry, they can point to this guy as an example of how they enforce the codes no matter who you are or what you believe.

So your theory is that they are farking with one of their own as cover in case they get the opportunity, sometime in the future, to fark with some Muslim?

Your tinfoil hat is on way too tight.

mikaloyd: FormatSlacker: Don't they already require permits for public gatherings? But you also need permits for private gatherings of 15 people on a huge private property? Who cares about 'freedom of religion,' when did we completely lose freedom of association and the right to peaceably assemble?

Dude, this is FARK where theyd f*ck freedom to death in the gallbladder to get a good "gotcha" in on some chuchy clown. These sort of dorks are the very reason rights have eroded.

A few people(a dozen or less) meeting in someone's living room is a bible study. Dozens of people in a purpose built structure is a church. Once you have to build a building to be able to contain all the people that attend, you have some obligations to meet. And none of them are related to your choice of religion.

mikaloyd: FormatSlacker: Don't they already require permits for public gatherings? But you also need permits for private gatherings of 15 people on a huge private property? Who cares about 'freedom of religion,' when did we completely lose freedom of association and the right to peaceably assemble?

Dude, this is FARK where theyd f*ck freedom to death in the gallbladder to get a good "gotcha" in on some chuchy clown. These sort of dorks are the very reason rights have eroded.

I'm pretty sure the First Amendment does not include the right to ignore building code violations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

FloydA: mikaloyd: FormatSlacker: Don't they already require permits for public gatherings? But you also need permits for private gatherings of 15 people on a huge private property? Who cares about 'freedom of religion,' when did we completely lose freedom of association and the right to peaceably assemble?

Dude, this is FARK where theyd f*ck freedom to death in the gallbladder to get a good "gotcha" in on some chuchy clown. These sort of dorks are the very reason rights have eroded.

I'm pretty sure the First Amendment does not include the right to ignore building code violations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And not to mention: My rights trump and supercede your rights

Brubold: This is about government overreach. Pure and simple.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but not in this instance. Search for the guy's name and look at the Phoenix New Times article from 2008; way more background. This dude is running regularly-scheduled church services from his home.

In Phoenix, you don't have to have any special zoning to build a church, so all he had to do was file the proper paperwork and build it to code. Now, he may be a dick for not even attempting to get along with his neighbors, but that's not illegal.

What he did, instead, was pull a permit to build a garage structure (no water or power), and start holding his Religious services in the uncompleted structure. When the city found out, they said "No, it must be completed first... And, hey, didn't you pull a permit for a garage?" he has 67 code violations because he built his "church" building as a residential structure, when churches are required, like commercial enterprises, to have things like exit signs, fire suppression systems and the like.

Trance750: FloydA: mikaloyd: FormatSlacker: Don't they already require permits for public gatherings? But you also need permits for private gatherings of 15 people on a huge private property? Who cares about 'freedom of religion,' when did we completely lose freedom of association and the right to peaceably assemble?

Dude, this is FARK where theyd f*ck freedom to death in the gallbladder to get a good "gotcha" in on some chuchy clown. These sort of dorks are the very reason rights have eroded.

I'm pretty sure the First Amendment does not include the right to ignore building code violations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And not to mention: My rights trump and supercede your rights


That doesn't necessarily follow.

Unless you mean my right to not get burned alive in a building with too few exits and no fire suppression system trumps his right to ignore building codes, in which case, I can see your point.

If I am killed due to someone else's willful negligence, then all of my rights are lost. So my right to continue living supersedes his right to endanger it.

Is that what you meant? It's kind of hot today and I'm not sure I'm thinking clearly.