FARK.com: (7201377) Not News: Man faces 60 days in jail. Fark: For hosting Bible study in his own home

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		Not News: Man faces 60 days in jail. Fark: For hosting Bible study in his own home (dailymail.co.uk)		397
		More: Asinine, Bibles, building codes, 3TV, seminaries, Bible study, jail term, Courts of Arizona

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loonatic112358		2012-07-07 02:35:46 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: confessions and holy blow jobs.

you must attend wookiee cookie's church :P

Last Man on Earth		2012-07-07 02:35:59 PM

Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.

If he were just having a couple of friends over, I'd agree. That's not the situation, though. It's an issue of scale as much as anything. Put it this way: 4-5 guys coming over to play poker is a game. 40 guys coming over to play cards is a casino. Even if it's legal, there are fire codes and the like. If nothing else, the lack of emergency exits, wheelchair ramps, and the like represents a legitimate safety hazard in a building intended for gatherings of this size.

thamike		2012-07-07 02:36:18 PM

trappedspirit: If this guy had been having D&D gatherings fark would be all up in arms on his side.

I thought we lost all the D&D players to ritual mass suicide because of pop music.

Trance750		2012-07-07 02:36:21 PM

thamike: So basically what happened is almost but not quite exactly unlike what subby and the Sausage People say happened.

images.moviefill.com

EbolaNYC		2012-07-07 02:36:54 PM

So he lied to the government on the permit application and he's surprised that this is the result??? Come on man, fark you.

Ed Grubermann		2012-07-07 02:37:08 PM

Marine1: You know, guys like this, who consider faith evil and think religion is a disease worthy of "treatment".

/they exist

It's a cancer that needs to be excised from the human race before it kills us all.

Aulus		2012-07-07 02:37:34 PM

GentlemanJ: AD LEONIBUS EIS!

Actually, that should be "Ad leones. (Ad always takes the accusative)

papatex		2012-07-07 02:38:03 PM

I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

Polyron		2012-07-07 02:38:07 PM

darkvstar: eone I work with used to live on a cul-de-sac. she had Mormon neighbors who would get together every week for ... whatever Mormons do behind closed doors

incest?

Jon iz teh kewl		2012-07-07 02:38:56 PM

good thing they caught him
health doesn't look that great. maybe sodium deficiency
maybe god provides just enough sodium for HIM to survive.
nor flourish

fark catholics

Uchiha_Cycliste		2012-07-07 02:39:03 PM

loonatic112358: Uchiha_Cycliste: confessions and holy blow jobs.

you must attend wookiee cookie's church :P

It's true, it's not only his steeple that is disappointing.

Trance750		2012-07-07 02:40:01 PM

papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

If you disagree with the law, then file a petition to have it repealed. Flagrant violation of a law you don't believe in, is not an acceptable excuse.

Marine1		2012-07-07 02:40:37 PM

Ed Grubermann: Marine1: You know, guys like this, who consider faith evil and think religion is a disease worthy of "treatment".

/they exist

It's a cancer that needs to be excised from the human race before it kills us all.

What, religion or the guys who can't get over the idea that others might think differently than them?

ongbok		2012-07-07 02:40:38 PM

His neighbors wouldn't have a problem with what he was doing and the city wouldn't have never even known about him to get involved if he hadn't had 40 people over at his house regularly 3 times a week. That is a lot of traffic and congestion to come in and out of a neighborhood regularly. His neighbors had a right to complain about that. In fact if you are going to have a large party or whatever at your house once the neighborly thing to do is to go door to door and inform your neighbors about it ahead of time.

thamike		2012-07-07 02:40:48 PM

Trance750: thamike: So basically what happened is almost but not quite exactly unlike what subby and the Sausage People say happened.

[images.moviefill.com image 500x300]

profile.ak.fbcdn.net

"Thank you."

namatad		2012-07-07 02:40:54 PM

ZAZ: Where I live churches are exempt from zoning so we don't have this kind of raid. Church leaders and town leaders are expected to negotiate to bring the level of nonconformance to a mutually tolerable level.

whoa whoa whoa
not so fast
mutually tolerable level

I see where the problem is here.
Why would you give anyone other than the gubermint any power???
LOL

papatex		2012-07-07 02:43:06 PM

Trance750: papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

If you disagree with the law, then file a petition to have it repealed. Flagrant violation of a law you don't believe in, is not an acceptable excuse.

Is this where I say something smarmy about your mom on the corner of a dark intersection?

thamike		2012-07-07 02:43:38 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: health doesn't look that great. maybe sodium deficiency

He's probably one of those reptilian shapeshifters.

Sabyen91		2012-07-07 02:44:02 PM

the ha ha guy		2012-07-07 02:44:04 PM

papatex: Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

You mean in a public place already set aside for large gatherings, such as another church, his own restaurant, or even a library? Yes, that would be perfectly fine, as long as the venue is safe for the number of occupants.

The issue isn't the fact that he runs a church, the issue is that he lied to the government solely to cut corners on vital safety measures.

Freschel		2012-07-07 02:44:04 PM

mikaloyd: saloman: mikaloyd: Allen. The end.: saloman: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Not playing tennis is a sport.

Nice!

/remember, it's letrole with whom you are not conversing...

You seldom see Atennis pros on the internet attacking all things tennis together

I make fun of nascar fans all the time. Does that make anascar a religion?

Depends on if NASCAR is a religion. If it is then 48 is the mark of the beast.

I thought 24 is the mark of the beast. =P

thelackey3326		2012-07-07 02:44:22 PM

Let's propose a new rule. It supports all structures of belief about what happens after we die because it has nothing to do with any of them.

New rule: Don't be a dick.

papatex		2012-07-07 02:46:28 PM

Sabyen91: papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

You disagree that buildings should have building codes?

the ha ha guy: papatex: Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

You mean in a public place already set aside for large gatherings, such as another church, his own restaurant, or even a library? Yes, that would be perfectly fine, as long as the venue is safe for the number of occupants.

The issue isn't the fact that he runs a church, the issue is that he lied to the government solely to cut corners on vital safety measures.

"I've never, every participated in an event without first making sure maximum occupancy hasn't been met!"

Marine1		2012-07-07 02:46:53 PM

thelackey3326: Let's propose a new rule. It supports all structures of belief about what happens after we die because it has nothing to do with any of them.

New rule: Don't be a dick.

That works.

papatex		2012-07-07 02:47:52 PM

ever...not every...

fail

hubiestubert		2012-07-07 02:47:59 PM

Last Man on Earth		2012-07-07 02:50:18 PM

papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

Sure, works for me. An old friend of mine is a pastor who, before he had a proper church, would rent out a movie theater once a week for services, maybe this guy could do the same or similar. Hell, doesn't he own his own restaurant? Why not close early a few nights a week and host these meetings there? Anything like that is already built to accommodate crowds like this one, so there wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not really sure which part of the law you take issue with. Is it the existence of fire codes in general, that there are different codes for commercial venues than homes, or that religious buildings can't ignore the codes whenever they like?

genner		2012-07-07 02:52:50 PM

The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

FloydA		2012-07-07 02:53:22 PM

Theaetetus: wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?

Steeple's too short, didn't violate any building codes. Plus, with no visitors to your pants, parking isn't an issue.

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark.

Callous		2012-07-07 02:54:36 PM

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 640x430]

[i.imgur.com image 640x331]

1.5 acres, with seemingly, plenty of parking.

You can find the exact address on sermoncentral.com

It's beginning to look a lot like a compound.

How long before the feds trick one of them into buying a short barrel shotgun and then raid it, shoot it up, and burn it to the ground killing everyone inside?

LivefromGA		2012-07-07 02:54:36 PM

hubiestubert: 'It came down to zoning and proper permitting,' Vicki Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, told Fox News Radio. 'Any time you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does - we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire.'

It's not what happens at the meetings, but the number of people and regularity of the meetings. They could have been meeting to discuss their Fantasy Football picks or have a regular book club meeting, or be playing D&D, and it boils down to use.

Residential areas are exactly that. 15 folks, 3 times a week, that's a LOT of folks parking up and down residential streets, which in the Phoenix area don't come with a lot of street parking. Sub-division streets are NOT parking friendly in the least. You have folks over that often, you aren't just impacting your home, but the flow of traffic that impacts your neighbors as well, and it affects their use as well. He's not zoned for this use, and that's what he's getting hit on. If his neighbors hosted parties three times a week and clogged up the road with vehicles he'd be making complaints as well. Someone in that neighborhood made a complaint--which is why the cops got involved. Otherwise, they wouldn't care. Someone in that neighborhood got tired of cars rolling in and blocking up the streets...

He wants to blame the city? Fine. But he might want to look at the guy whose driveway got crowded with cars every week first...

FTA: although the pastor insists that his guests would always park on his property.

The guy owns 4.6 acres, not exactly like a small subdivision.

The building may be big enough for 40 people, but it is the same 15 people 3 times a week. I think you have a bunch of asshole neighbors and a lot of people like you that hate anything to do with religion. This guy is successful and seems to try to do right yet the city of Phoenix has nothing better to do.

OBTW, I am an atheist. I just don't like seeing the government sticking their hand out for money and criminally prosecuting people for shiat like this
.

wookiee cookie		2012-07-07 02:55:36 PM

help im being fark-oppressed!

now i can haz tax exemption for my church-pants?

ZAZ		2012-07-07 02:57:01 PM

MasterThief

According to the federal court decision linked upthread, this guy didn't have a lawyer when he fought the original citations and didn't properly assert religious immunity under state law at the initial hearing. He's trying to undo his mistake, but the law doesn't like to undo mistakes.

Apparently the violations started out as civil meaning he had no federal constitutional right to a lawyer or a fair trial. They escalated to criminal later.

Sabyen91		2012-07-07 02:58:17 PM

genner: The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

He did lie to get the clearances. That could be what the time is for.

Last Man on Earth		2012-07-07 02:59:33 PM

genner: The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

Seems a little excessive, yeah, but that's pretty much a job requirement for prosecutors. I'd say that the reasoning is that the fire code violations make the place a risk to the life and health of his congregation. Add in the fact that he lied to the zoning offices when getting approval (arguably insurance fraud) and that he's already on probation for a separate offense, and the logic is there. I don't happen to agree with them, I think it's kind of a stretch that this warrants jail time too, but I at least see how they got there.

loonatic112358		2012-07-07 03:00:45 PM

Last Man on Earth: papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

Sure, works for me. An old friend of mine is a pastor who, before he had a proper church, would rent out a movie theater once a week for services, maybe this guy could do the same or similar. Hell, doesn't he own his own restaurant? Why not close early a few nights a week and host these meetings there? Anything like that is already built to accommodate crowds like this one, so there wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not really sure which part of the law you take issue with. Is it the existence of fire codes in general, that there are different codes for commercial venues than homes, or that religious buildings can't ignore the codes whenever they like?

or ya know, at the frikkin building he already owned where he has a restaurant

Actually, since he owned a restaurant he should have been familiar with the codes he violated

ongbok		2012-07-07 03:00:52 PM

genner: The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

I think the reason why they are throwing the book at him is because if in the future they have to do the same thing to a group of Muslims or another religion and get accused of bigotry, they can point to this guy as an example of how they enforce the codes no matter who you are or what you believe.

darkvstar		2012-07-07 03:05:26 PM

Polyron: darkvstar: eone I work with used to live on a cul-de-sac. she had Mormon neighbors who would get together every week for ... whatever Mormons do behind closed doors

incest?

having lived in a Mormon town and hung out with ex-Mormon feminists, I can tell you that truer words were never spoken...

Jon iz teh kewl		2012-07-07 03:06:50 PM

feed that man a McRib or he's gonna die of sodium deprivation
or excessive sodium
whatever
the McRib should put a smile on his face :)

hubiestubert		2012-07-07 03:08:32 PM

ongbok: genner: The guys an idiot and deserves the fines but jail time for a zoning violation....really?

I think the reason why they are throwing the book at him is because if in the future they have to do the same thing to a group of Muslims or another religion and get accused of bigotry, they can point to this guy as an example of how they enforce the codes no matter who you are or what you believe.

I think that they're pretty much enforcing zoning laws, because Maricopa is chock full of folks. It's a municipal area of about 6M people if you count the outlying towns. There's a lot of shennanigans with folks trying to duck inspections and building regs. They catch you, they get their pound of flesh...

Freschel		2012-07-07 03:09:07 PM

Since this is Maricopa County, the real reason why, is that he refuse to ~~bribe~~ give tribute to the local politicians. Amarite?

Glockenspiel Hero		2012-07-07 03:09:25 PM

We had a situation not unlike this here in Gettysburg, which actually did end really poorly, (Cue CSB music)

There's a mostly vacant lot downtown, on which a guy put up a tent and starting running a "Civil War chapel", with services supposedly like those that would have taken place in the armies. This was deemed ok since a tent is a temporary structure and you don't need a building permit. (And there are lots of semi-permanent tents around Gettysburg for obvious reasons)

Then one day he decided to build a real wood roof on it, and some wood walls. The town turned around and cited him for building a permanent structure without a permit. Out came the tears of outrage since the town was clearly curtailing his religious liberty. The story was of course picked up by Fox, to amplify the outrage.

Then one day went I went to work I saw a huge commotion in the center of town. The church had burned down- after all, it was dry wood and had nothing up to code. It took the house, the coffee shop and the low income housing complex next to it with it. (Ironically, the low income housing was run by an actual local church) Luckily nobody died, but Mr. HelpHelpI'mBeingOppressed managed to really mess up the lives of several dozen people. Of course he's blaming arson and the horrible anti-church people in Gettysburg rather than his own asshattery.

MrBentor		2012-07-07 03:09:47 PM

Balchinian: I don't really give a lot of credence to the neighbors biatching about parking

I had a neighbor that hosted a few events like this. They were noisy and obnoxious. One of their visitors was parked in a way that it was blocking my driveway. I had it towed. They were pissed. Too bad, so sad; I have plenty of cheese to go with your whine.

Igor Jakovsky		2012-07-07 03:10:05 PM

hubiestubert: 'It came down to zoning and proper permitting,' Vicki Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor, told Fox News Radio. 'Any time you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does - we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire.'

It's not what happens at the meetings, but the number of people and regularity of the meetings. They could have been meeting to discuss their Fantasy Football picks or have a regular book club meeting, or be playing D&D, and it boils down to use.

Residential areas are exactly that. 15 folks, 3 times a week, that's a LOT of folks parking up and down residential streets, which in the Phoenix area don't come with a lot of street parking. Sub-division streets are NOT parking friendly in the least. You have folks over that often, you aren't just impacting your home, but the flow of traffic that impacts your neighbors as well, and it affects their use as well. He's not zoned for this use, and that's what he's getting hit on. If his neighbors hosted parties three times a week and clogged up the road with vehicles he'd be making complaints as well. Someone in that neighborhood made a complaint--which is why the cops got involved. Otherwise, they wouldn't care. Someone in that neighborhood got tired of cars rolling in and blocking up the streets...

He wants to blame the city? Fine. But he might want to look at the guy whose driveway got crowded with cars every week first...

except he is on 5 acres and the people park on his land according to the article. Its not as though he is at the end of the cul de sac in some zero lot line suburban shiathole.

It really seems to me that he got in a pissing contest with the city and that prosecutor in particular. Read the last paragraph where he talks about the revocation hearing and trying to get him. 2 1/2 years for being a "rebel". I'm glad this hardened criminal is off our streets. I feel safer now.

Sabyen91		2012-07-07 03:11:42 PM

hubiestubert: Sabyen91: papatex: I agree that it's against the law

I just happen to disagree with the law

Perhaps some of you farkers would rather him do it in a public place? I'm sure that would go over just as well.

You disagree that buildings should have building codes?

If God wants a building to collapse, then the building will collapse. Who are you to second guess God's Will?

It's like those damn nosey handwashing rules or sanitation laws. Poop in the water doesn't cause disease, God gives you disease for being a dirty bastiche!

Just don't be named Job.

Armadillo Slim		2012-07-07 03:14:01 PM

Churches located in residential neighborhoods aren't terribly unusual so getting the proper permits can't be terribly difficult. So you purposely don't get the permit - lying to the zoning commission in the process - and force the city's hand. Then just yell "RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION!" and - Voila, attention whoring money-shot!

If all this guy wanted to do was worship in peace, he would have gotten this thing zoned properly and obtained the waivers to avoid the taxes. But attention whores need attention to drum up business.

Curious		2012-07-07 03:15:05 PM

rebelyell2006: Did he actually go to the code people? Has he been paying the property taxes for the large free-standing structure? Is there a better article than one from the Daily Fail?

the linked Fox Radio article contains this: "Salman said he applied for and was granted the proper building permits. He also said the building has passed a city inspection."

he seems to be claiming that the city knew what he was doing and everything he did was legit. if he actually got permits i'm sure he is being billed for whatever taxes would be assessed.

the google basically returns nothing but variations of this article. all extensively quote the Fox Radio interview. also almost all are a "oh my they are picking on Christians" theme and are from Christian sources.

the ha ha guy		2012-07-07 03:16:22 PM

Here's an even more in-depth (but long) article that speaks volumes about this guy's true motives:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants- to -build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/

"In July 1992, hoping to scare the hell out of a kid who'd been messing with his girlfriend's little brother, police reports say, Salman donned a Raiders T-shirt and fired five rounds from a .38 special into the kid's house. The boy's mother was home at the time; she told police that one of the bullets nearly grazed her hairline."

"In 1994, Salman had filed paperwork claiming that he belonged to the Embassy of God. That meant, the document claimed, that he didn't need to follow United States law."

"[In 2002,]The Church of All Nations hired him to be its pastor. [...] According to a lawsuit the church's leadership filed against Salman, one of the new pastor's first moves was to put up a sign saying "Harvest Christian Fellowship." That wasn't what they'd bargained for: They were the Church of All Nations, and proud of it. [...] They voted to oust him, and when he fought back and refused to leave, they filed a "forcible detainer" to have him evicted. The judge granted it."

"The city may have to pay for our church to be built," Michael Salman says. The excitement in his voice is unmistakable."

hubiestubert		2012-07-07 03:17:46 PM

Igor Jakovsky: It really seems to me that he got in a pissing contest with the city and that prosecutor in particular. Read the last paragraph where he talks about the revocation hearing and trying to get him. 2 1/2 years for being a "rebel". I'm glad this hardened criminal is off our streets. I feel safer now.

Save that Maricopa is rife with these idiots who figure "Mah land!" and with a city of 6M there are very real issus to deal with--traffic, waste, and oddly enough, water use. Apply for the right permits, and do it right, or don't do it all.