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(Daily Mail)   Not News: Man faces 60 days in jail. Fark: For hosting Bible study in his own home   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 397
    More: Asinine, Bibles, building codes, 3TV, seminaries, Bible study, jail term, Courts of Arizona  
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14894 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Jul 2012 at 12:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-07 01:58:42 PM
Part of me wants to say the guy is out of line for blocking up traffic and shiat but then I realize that I'd sound like some of the d-bags in here who actually want this guy arrested for the religious part, not the congestion part.

/Christian
 
2012-07-07 02:00:02 PM

i_got_no_strings: When I saw the headline, I was sure it was some "tons of people come to his house and block the streets often" story. I was not expecting the "I built a giant shed on my property and started holding thrice-weekly church services, but it's just a home Bible study" angle. I wonder if his "home Bible study" groups regularly collect offerings. That could lead to an even more interesting legal mashup.


You know...that also comes to mind: Is he in fact collecting offerings and is he promoting himself to his parishoners as being part of a not-for-profit group? For that matter, is his group registered as a 501(c)3 and/or does it represent itself as being linked to one?

(That said--I wouldn't be shocked if he HASN'T registered as a not-for-profit with the state so that zoning regs wouldn't take place...there ARE some churches in the "Christian Patriot militia" movement that explicitly don't register as not-for-profits so as to not be "encumbered" by 501(c)3 rules prohibiting electioneering, so it's not unknown.)
 
2012-07-07 02:00:31 PM

hubiestubert: Weaver95: he built a church in his back yard....

And he owns a restaurant--someplace that WOULD be zoned for heavier use. But I suppose that would cut into his business, so he instead wanted to take evenings off, but still have his meetings, and decided to use his home, as opposed to the space that was better zoned for it.

Cry me a river. Waah. The rules shouldn't apply to ME!


Ain't that the truth.
 
2012-07-07 02:01:09 PM
'Just because visitors come to my home three times a week and we discuss the Bible...if that's their definition of a church then so be it,' he said.'

-Ummm...
 
2012-07-07 02:01:24 PM

Marine1: Part of me wants to say the guy is out of line for blocking up traffic and shiat but then I realize that I'd sound like some of the d-bags in here who actually want this guy arrested for the religious part, not the congestion part.

/Christian


We've been rumbled. You guys caught on to the FEMA camps, but we can still pick you off one by one.
 
2012-07-07 02:01:54 PM

Aulus: Sure, he's going to get sued, but so is the city for not enforcing the codes. It is damn well in the city's interest t insist on him making it up to code.


While I agree with some what's going on, I've yet to see a city sued for not enforcing code if someone gets hurt.
Usually, the city joins in the parade of lawsuits and prosecutions against the property owner.
 
2012-07-07 02:01:59 PM
When I click on one of these stories wondering how subby's reading comprehension isn't up to snuff, my expectations are usually met.
 
2012-07-07 02:02:16 PM
His crime was that he didn't purchase a permit, the proceeds of which help support the bureaucracy whose job it is to enforce permits. I don't think this is religious oppression as much as just your every-day, run of the mill general oppression.

He can't win against the overwhelming power of the bureaucracy, so he has to scream "religious persecution" in order to have a chance.

I hope he wins.
 
2012-07-07 02:03:53 PM

Last Man on Earth: Basically, if you can't build a commercial bar without being up to zoning laws and codes, you can't build a church that isn't up to zoning laws and codes either. The law here is non-religious both in its writing and in its implementation, with no preference or discrimination.


But I want to build a bar in my back yard that doesn't follow any codes or zoning laws. The first amendment guarantees me the right to free assembly. My rights are being trampled upon. I'm gonna sue I tells ya!
 
2012-07-07 02:04:06 PM

hubiestubert: Uchiha_Cycliste: trappedspirit: If this guy had been having D&D gatherings fark would be all up in arms on his side.

nah, the so-called players wouldn't get past the gazebo.

We better act fast! I'm drawing my Hackmaster plus 12 sword! You waste it with your crossbow! Cast a couple of fireballs at the damn thing! Burn, baby, burn!


like a boss
1.bp.blogspot.com
nice work!
 
2012-07-07 02:04:14 PM

Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.


40 people. Every week. At a single residential building. Whatever they're doing there, the city has to make sure the safety of the people is considered. In a residential area, as well, you have to consider traffic and other disturbances to the daily lives of other people who live there. This is not about it being a Bible study or a church. This is about the city making sure people follow the rules that are put in place.
 
2012-07-07 02:05:26 PM

Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.




-You honestly think this zoning scuffle is part of an ongoing anti-religious crusade by Arizona authorities? Part of the godless athiest Culture War? You really believe that?

/what the hell is a 'hardened atheist' anyways?
 
2012-07-07 02:06:08 PM

Bildo: His crime was that he didn't purchase a permit, the proceeds of which help support the bureaucracy whose job it is to enforce permits. I don't think this is religious oppression as much as just your every-day, run of the mill general oppression.

He can't win against the overwhelming power of the bureaucracy, so he has to scream "religious persecution" in order to have a chance.

I hope he wins.


this must be one of the dumbest comments in the thread.
 
2012-07-07 02:07:45 PM

Amigajoe: Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.



-You honestly think this zoning scuffle is part of an ongoing anti-religious crusade by Arizona authorities? Part of the godless athiest Culture War? You really believe that?

/what the hell is a 'hardened atheist' anyways?


superstarsofscience.com

You know, guys like this, who consider faith evil and think religion is a disease worthy of "treatment".

/they exist
 
2012-07-07 02:08:57 PM

Superjew: Another entitled Christian douchebag. Big surprise.


yeah, whatever you say, oven-stuffer
 
2012-07-07 02:09:16 PM

Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.


How can you "harden" a lack of belief?

Why would you support blatant violations of city safety ordinances (which is all this story is about)??

The fact that his meetings are about magic, etc. is irrelevant.
 
2012-07-07 02:09:44 PM

Tommy Moo: I'm a hardened atheist and I think this is stupid. Let the man host his dumb meetings. The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently. He is absolutely correct when he says that people are allowed to have weekly poker and football meetings. If he isn't running a business and making money off of these Bible studies, then it's nothing more than having friends over.


You bring sense to this thread. Tell me more.
 
2012-07-07 02:09:45 PM

spleef420: Superjew: Another entitled Christian douchebag. Big surprise.

yeah, whatever you say, oven-stuffer


... calm it down, guys...
 
2012-07-07 02:09:53 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Bildo: His crime was that he didn't purchase a permit, the proceeds of which help support the bureaucracy whose job it is to enforce permits. I don't think this is religious oppression as much as just your every-day, run of the mill general oppression.

He can't win against the overwhelming power of the bureaucracy, so he has to scream "religious persecution" in order to have a chance.

I hope he wins.

this must be one of the dumbest comments in the thread.


Word.
 
2012-07-07 02:10:52 PM
Just wait until it comes out that these meetings were gay sex orgies.
 
2012-07-07 02:10:52 PM

Nightie don't call me Wig: [i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

Seems like a levelheaded dude.


Crap! Is that him??

Life brings death. Jesus ain't brought shiat to me except a hard time!
 
2012-07-07 02:12:06 PM

Tommy Moo: The way to win this cultural war is not through censorship; we must do it by having better ideas and consistently arguing them more eloquently.


If you really think that a town government in Arizona is fighting a cultural war against Christianity, then you're nuts.

This isn't about censorship, this is about fire codes and handicapped ramps.
 
2012-07-07 02:13:17 PM

Great Porn Dragon: You know...that also comes to mind: Is he in fact collecting offerings and is he promoting himself to his parishoners as being part of a not-for-profit group? For that matter, is his group registered as a 501(c)3 and/or does it represent itself as being linked to one?


He refers to his gathering as "Harvest Christian Fellowship Church". He didn't begin referring to it as a bible study until after he was being prosecuted for misrepresenting his 40-member not-a-church as a "game room".

And as far as I can find, he has no 501(c)(3) filings on record under any name.
 
2012-07-07 02:13:53 PM
This guys an idiot. I don't know about his state but in plenty others it is super easy to turn residential property into a church-zoned property. This guy was just cutting corners and pocketing the tithe.
 
2012-07-07 02:14:09 PM

keylock71: Reminds me of my dipshiat neighbors when the wife and I were still renting...

He'd hold Jehovah Witness meetings on the top floor landing of the tenement house we lived in. 6-8 assholes sitting on the floor that the wife and I would have to climb over to get in and out of our apartment.

Didn't say anything the first time I encountered them, but the second time, I told them all to either go into his apartment (but it's too hot in there!!) or get the fark out. He complained to the landlord, thinking he was in the right, but the landlord basically told him in no uncertain terms that the hallway landing wasn't for meetings and if he continued, he'd be evicted.

I'm sure my dipshiat neighbor felt "religiously persecuted", as well.


someone I work with used to live on a cul-de-sac. she had Mormon neighbors who would get together every week for ... whatever Mormons do behind closed doors .... anyway, they would park in front of her driveway, preventing her from getting out. She started by asking nice. It progressed to threats. Then she got a friend with a tow truck to come over. Acting as if he was from the city, he got them to move on threat of enormous towing fees. One idiot moved her car and parked it in front of a fire hydrant. He went off on her, threatening to have her arrested. The whole time, from start to finish, these religious idiots kept whining about religious persecution and how everyone lacked the appropriate understanding. As if idiot behavior done in the name of Jesus made it automatically alright.
 
2012-07-07 02:15:34 PM
i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?
 
2012-07-07 02:16:00 PM

Amigajoe: /what the hell is a 'hardened atheist' anyways?


one not affected by EMP
 
2012-07-07 02:17:13 PM

wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?


Steeple's too short, didn't violate any building codes. Plus, with no visitors to your pants, parking isn't an issue.
 
2012-07-07 02:17:34 PM

wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?


no one will worship what's in your pants, do you feel repressed now?
 
2012-07-07 02:17:51 PM

Nightie don't call me Wig: [i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

Seems like a levelheaded dude.


OK, this pretty much IS exactly what I pictured, and pretty much he's EXPLICITLY promoting his "Bible meeting" as a church on his website--pretty much he's a street-shouter who's gone to setting up his own de facto church (which he calls "Harvest Christian Fellowship Arizona"), of which the church in his backyard is some missionary outlet or something.

It gets better.

Apparently according to their statement of faith, observant Jewish people who don't convert to kosher neopentecostalism are going to hell. Not only that, but they all but promote their church (and only their church) as being the "real Jews" in a form akin to that in Christian Identity groups (who claim that White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are Teh Reel J00s, and not those guys who go to synagogue on Saturday and keep kosher and have family traceable to Israel).

So we're talking REALLY skeevy Jesus Campers who think they're above the law. This is probably the first time in my life I'm HOPING someone sees Maricopa County JusticeTM...
 
2012-07-07 02:18:46 PM

loonatic112358: Amigajoe: /what the hell is a 'hardened atheist' anyways?

one not affected by EMP


Is CERN a hardened atheist?
 
2012-07-07 02:18:53 PM

mikaloyd: We need to jail more people for peacably assembling.


Says the guy who's dissembling.
 
2012-07-07 02:19:12 PM

wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?


Do you do sprinkling or full baptisms?
 
2012-07-07 02:19:28 PM
Ahem...

[Arizona Revised Statutes s.]41-1493.01. Free exercise of religion protected

A. Free exercise of religion is a fundamental right that applies in this state even if laws, rules or other government actions are facially neutral.

B. Except as provided in subsection C, government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.

C. Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person is both:

1. In furtherance of a compelling governmental interest.

2. The least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

D. A person whose religious exercise is burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against a government. A party who prevails in any action to enforce this article against a government shall recover attorney fees and costs.


He should win, and I hope he does win.
 
2012-07-07 02:20:55 PM
FTA: "Salman is the owner of Mighty Mike's Burgers, and he is also an ordained priest with a master's degree in biblical studies from the Western Theological Seminary"

So what you're saying is that he doesn't have an advanced degree. Got it.

And how can he own a business? Jesus was very clear in telling his followers to sell all of their belongings and to give the proceeds to the poor.
 
2012-07-07 02:21:08 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Is CERN a hardened atheist?


no, because it found the god particle
 
2012-07-07 02:21:51 PM
I propose the government has a compelling interest in 40 people not burning to death.
 
2012-07-07 02:22:28 PM

Theaetetus: wookiee cookie: i built a church in my pants

where's my oppression?

Steeple's too short, didn't violate any building codes. Plus, with no visitors to your pants, parking isn't an issue.


OMG, classic.
 
2012-07-07 02:22:35 PM

the ha ha guy: Great Porn Dragon: You know...that also comes to mind: Is he in fact collecting offerings and is he promoting himself to his parishoners as being part of a not-for-profit group? For that matter, is his group registered as a 501(c)3 and/or does it represent itself as being linked to one?

He refers to his gathering as "Harvest Christian Fellowship Church". He didn't begin referring to it as a bible study until after he was being prosecuted for misrepresenting his 40-member not-a-church as a "game room".

And as far as I can find, he has no 501(c)(3) filings on record under any name.


Saw (when someone posted a picture of the guy in full Street Shouter Mode) that, and pretty much we're dealing with some nasty types indeed...

And pretty much to tell if he was registered, you'd have to go to state records of non-profits, not federal; there's an extremely wide loophole for churches (the "Form 990 Loophole") that pretty much exempts churches from filing ANYTHING with the IRS other than a statement of "Hey, we're a church". (You can thank the Scientologists for that)
 
2012-07-07 02:22:56 PM

loonatic112358: Uchiha_Cycliste: Is CERN a hardened atheist?

no, because it found the god particle


Now that we have a particle that imparts Mass, we don't need god anymore. And these masses are sh much shorter lived than catholic masses.
 
2012-07-07 02:23:46 PM

darkvstar: someone I work with used to live on a cul-de-sac. she had Mormon neighbors who would get together every week for ... whatever Mormons do behind closed doors .... anyway, they would park in front of her driveway, preventing her from getting out. She started by asking nice. It progressed to threats. Then she got a friend with a tow truck to come over. Acting as if he was from the city, he got them to move on threat of enormous towing fees. One idiot moved her car and parked it in front of a fire hydrant. He went off on her, threatening to have her arrested. The whole time, from start to finish, these religious idiots kept whining about religious persecution and how everyone lacked the appropriate understanding. As if idiot behavior done in the name of Jesus made it automatically alright.


Just once, I'd love to see some of these folks have an epiphany and realize that they're not being persecuted because of their religious beliefs, but rather, because they insist on acting like entitled assholes.
 
2012-07-07 02:23:54 PM

gunga galunga: Don't mind me. I'm just here to watch you libs continue to pretend that you aren't waging a war against Christianity.


It's Arizona. Your brain is broken.
 
2012-07-07 02:25:38 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Now that we have a particle that imparts Mass, we don't need god anymore. And these masses are sh much shorter lived than catholic masses.


to be honest, what events aren't shorter then a catholic mass
 
2012-07-07 02:27:27 PM

hubiestubert: Weaver95: he built a church in his back yard....

And he owns a restaurant--someplace that WOULD be zoned for heavier use. But I suppose that would cut into his business, so he instead wanted to take evenings off, but still have his meetings, and decided to use his home, as opposed to the space that was better zoned for it.

Cry me a river. Waah. The rules shouldn't apply to ME!


He could have used some space at a local church. Hell, if they weren't too loud an obnoxious the local public library has conference rooms people can use.
 
2012-07-07 02:27:55 PM

loonatic112358: Uchiha_Cycliste: Now that we have a particle that imparts Mass, we don't need god anymore. And these masses are sh much shorter lived than catholic masses.

to be honest, what events aren't shorter then a catholic mass


Nothing pleasant...

Surgery, childbirth, court hearings, jury duty, divorce proceedings...
 
2012-07-07 02:28:02 PM

MasterThief: Ahem...

[Arizona Revised Statutes s.]41-1493.01. Free exercise of religion protected

A. Free exercise of religion is a fundamental right that applies in this state even if laws, rules or other government actions are facially neutral.

B. Except as provided in subsection C, government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.

C. Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person is both:

1. In furtherance of a compelling governmental interest.

2. The least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

D. A person whose religious exercise is burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against a government. A party who prevails in any action to enforce this article against a government shall recover attorney fees and costs.

He should win, and I hope he does win.


Attention, idiot: this isn't about religion. It's about having a properly constructed building and saying it's a "game room" when it's a de facto church.

Anyone who says this is about religion, regardless of whether they're with the guy or against him, fails at reading comprehension.
 
2012-07-07 02:28:39 PM

hubiestubert: Residential areas are exactly that. 15 folks, 3 times a week


That's not Bible Study, that's addiction.
 
2012-07-07 02:29:58 PM
So basically what happened is almost but not quite exactly unlike what subby and the Sausage People say happened.
 
2012-07-07 02:31:14 PM

MasterThief: Ahem...

[Arizona Revised Statutes s.]41-1493.01. Free exercise of religion protected

A. Free exercise of religion is a fundamental right that applies in this state even if laws, rules or other government actions are facially neutral.

B. Except as provided in subsection C, government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.

C. Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person is both:

1. In furtherance of a compelling governmental interest.

2. The least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

D. A person whose religious exercise is burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against a government. A party who prevails in any action to enforce this article against a government shall recover attorney fees and costs.

He should win, and I hope he does win.


Well, he's still going to lose his ass, and deservedly so:

a) He told a bit of a porky-pie in regards to the purpose of his structure. Governments do have a Compelling Interest in making sure a building is fit for purpose and is being used for the purpose for which it's designed, especially in a residential area.

b) Governments, especially in residential areas, do have a Compelling Interest in making sure that a building is properly built to code for both being structurally sound and being safe for the number of people in it.

c) Governments, in general, have a Compelling Interest to make sure that buildings with large occupancies (larger than what would be normal in a typical residential home) with regular attendance do have things like fire extinguishers and emergency exits that are indicated, because they also tend to have a Compelling Interest in not having some well-intentioned idiot accidentally re-enact the Beverly Hills Supper Club disaster in miniature.

(That last one, of note, is a rather horrendous fire that caused the loss of 165 lives...due to violation of building codes, not enough emergency exits, and emergency exits not being indicated well.)

I would say making sure that a large-occupancy building meets proper code requirements would be a Compelling Government Interest and the basics of making sure there's enough parking (including fire lanes in case something bad happens), emergency exits, and fire extinguishers so you don't have a case of 40 Barbecued Dominionists that risk setting half the goddamn neighbourhood on fire is ALSO pretty much the Least Restrictive Method of doing so. :D
 
2012-07-07 02:33:28 PM

loonatic112358: Uchiha_Cycliste: Now that we have a particle that imparts Mass, we don't need god anymore. And these masses are sh much shorter lived than catholic masses.

to be honest, what events aren't shorter then a catholic mass


confessions and holy blow jobs.
 
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