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(ESPN)   After Jason Kidd goes from Dallas to the Knicks, Jeremy Lin signs with Houston, conforming to the little known "Take a Texan/Leave a Texan" rule   (espn.go.com) divider line 102
    More: Interesting, Jason Kidd, Jeremy Lin, Knicks, Texans, offer sheet, J.A. Adande, Goran Dragic, restricted free agent  
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1210 clicks; posted to Sports » on 06 Jul 2012 at 10:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-06 01:23:49 PM

H31N0US: js34603: Apparently being Asian is an advantage in the NBA. Who knew?

About a billion Chinamen.


Yeah, those Yi Jianlian jerseys are selling like hotcakes.
 
2012-07-06 01:32:01 PM

dragonchild: regindyn: Had me until there. One month of above-average PG play doesn't make him the next Johnny Short-Shorts.

No, it doesn't. Of course it doesn't. Good thing no one said so, isn't it?


*looks back at what you wrote*

My bad, you just implied that he could be that type of player, and I thought you meant quality and not playstyle.

/it'd be sweet if he could
//just not for the Knicks, they deserve nothing but heartache and failure
 
2012-07-06 01:41:25 PM
Lin isn't coming to Houston. Shut up, subby, you cock.
 
2012-07-06 01:45:45 PM

FireZs: As for defense, he averages 1.6 steals and 0.3 blocks a game


Defense is not easily measured in general, and stats like steals/blocks per game are not good measures for the position.
First, blocked shots for point guards are pretty much irrelevant. 0.3 blocks per game isn't making a difference.
Steals could come from great on-the-ball D, or players with a tendency to gamble on passing lanes, which can give up x number of points for each steal. Or maybe the player is really good at sitting on passing lanes and/or help D. Either way it's not going to show up in the stats.
Even points scored against isn't that great of a measure.

Shouldn't really be expected that Lin, who was essentially a rookie, would be good defender right out of the gate though.

//unlike Rubio, who was a very good defender right out of the gate :)
 
2012-07-06 01:50:56 PM

tallguywithglasseson: unlike Rubio, who was a very good defender right out of the gate


:D
 
2012-07-06 01:54:59 PM
I'll rent out my condo to him if he'd like
 
2012-07-06 02:02:51 PM

H31N0US:
About a billion Chinamen.


Last I heard, there were 1.3 billion screaming Chinamen.
 
2012-07-06 02:14:45 PM

NotEric: H31N0US:
About a billion Chinamen.

Last I heard, there were 1.3 billion screaming Chinamen.


Otherwise known as "Zerg Rush".
 
2012-07-06 02:14:51 PM

IAmRight: By the same token, the games he played well were usually against the crappiest teams in the NBA (or, in the Lakers' case, teams with just plain sh*tty PG play).


Strangely, no. I know everyone likes to say they don't play for stats, but Lin REALLY doesn't play for stats. He doesn't slack off against inferior competition, especially when it's close, but he's happy to back off in blowouts. Again, during the Knicks' mauling of Portland he played half the game yet was damn near invisible. He didn't attack because the team didn't need him to.

tallguywithglasseson: Defense is not easily measured in general, and stats like steals/blocks per game are not good measures for the position.


They are and they aren't. You don't average over 2 blocks or steals a game by being bad at it. However, you're right in that the stats say almost nothing in the 0.5-1.5 range.

There are two fundamental ways to play defense; shut down an individual man-to-man or run a scheme. Most teams play a hybrid style partly because it's the most effective and partly because they have no choice. Very few teams have 3 shutdown defenders. New York as two, near as I can tell -- Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert. For everyone else, the big question is whether they are disciplined. Lin can't stay in front of most guards but he doesn't have to in the right schemes. If he flushes his man in the right direction and traps effectively, he's doing his job. But he has that great court awareness so he's still good for a couple sweet heads-up plays a game. He takes risks, but he doesn't get his steals by being reckless.

The thing I like about Lin is that while he's not particularly physically gifted, he is mentally exhausting to play against. His pick-and-roll can be stopped but you have to play disciplined defense. His jump shot and drives can be stuffed by one guy but your positioning has to be perfect every moment -- if you so much as shift your weight the wrong way he sees it and blows past you; if you're too far back he'll hit the jumper. On defense he can't make something from nothing, but you can't ever "go through the motions" on him because he'll anticipate it and turn your routine inbounds pass into a fast break. The Knicks are no match for a top-5 team bringing playoff intensity, which is why I say he's not good enough to be the best, but Lin will shred any team that doesn't bring playoff intensity against him. When Lin declined it wasn't just because he was exposed; teams stopped treating New York as a gimme and began circling Knicks games on their calendar.
 
2012-07-06 02:20:23 PM

dragonchild: Strangely, no. I know everyone likes to say they don't play for stats, but Lin REALLY doesn't play for stats. He doesn't slack off against inferior competition, especially when it's close, but he's happy to back off in blowouts. Again, during the Knicks' mauling of Portland he played half the game yet was damn near invisible


You don't get to complain that his bad games were against great defenses and then not acknowledge that his great games were against crappy defenses.
 
2012-07-06 02:38:25 PM

MugzyBrown: FireZs: if by "exposed" you mean "held to a non-all-star performance".

Last 15 games:

14.5ppg
39% shooting
6.5 assists
3.9 turns

Those are bad stats. Doesn't even include being abused on the other end of the floor


He was also playing on a partially torn meniscus the whole time, which got worse and worse until he needed surgery.

One guard, now 28, produced these stats for 55 games last year:
21 ppg
40% shooting
8.8 assists
4.0 turnovers

Would you rather have him for 5 yrs, $100 million or a 24 yr old Lin for 4 yrs $29 million, with a team option in the 4th year?
 
2012-07-06 04:54:16 PM

Arkanaut: H31N0US: js34603: Apparently being Asian is an advantage in the NBA. Who knew?

About a billion Chinamen.

Yeah, those Yi Jianlian jerseys are selling like hotcakes.


Yi did pretty good in China he was a big name for years. Link
 
2012-07-06 04:55:00 PM

Rozotorical: Arkanaut: H31N0US: js34603: Apparently being Asian is an advantage in the NBA. Who knew?

About a billion Chinamen.

Yeah, those Yi Jianlian jerseys are selling like hotcakes.

Yi did pretty good in China he was a big name for years. Link


Jianlian sorry :(
 
2012-07-06 04:55:55 PM
Disgusting how Cuban and Donnie betrayed Dirk this offseason by starting to "rebuild" two years after a title and during Dirk's remaining prime years. I say we just trade him to a winner out of respect for his loyalty and all he's done for the franchise and the city of Dallas and then we could also get some draft picks and young players. So Mr Shark Tank Cuban, how about if you want to rebuild you do it right and stop signing bums like Vince Carter. I also think if we start to rebuild, Donnie Nelson should be fired immediately, that moron couldn't draft if his life depended on it.

/think Mavs fans should boycott games next year, I've never seen a team dismantle a title team and them become a lottery team in 2 years. Cuban and Donnie have both been exposed, they've been riding Dirk's coattails for over a decade. What makes it worse is that Cuban is in LA doing some shiat show and neither him or Nelson have said a word to the fans about this debacle.
 
2012-07-06 05:00:01 PM
What else do Lin and Kidd have in common. They both are past their prime.

/wasn't that month awesome though?
 
2012-07-06 05:04:25 PM

Rozotorical: Rozotorical: Arkanaut: H31N0US: js34603: Apparently being Asian is an advantage in the NBA. Who knew?

About a billion Chinamen.

Yeah, those Yi Jianlian jerseys are selling like hotcakes.

Yi did pretty good in China he was a big name for years. Link

Jianlian sorry :(


No, you were right the first time.
 
2012-07-06 05:11:14 PM

TheJoe03: Disgusting how Cuban and Donnie betrayed Dirk this offseason by starting to "rebuild" two years after a title and during Dirk's remaining prime years. I say we just trade him to a winner out of respect for his loyalty and all he's done for the franchise and the city of Dallas and then we could also get some draft picks and young players. So Mr Shark Tank Cuban, how about if you want to rebuild you do it right and stop signing bums like Vince Carter. I also think if we start to rebuild, Donnie Nelson should be fired immediately, that moron couldn't draft if his life depended on it.

/think Mavs fans should boycott games next year, I've never seen a team dismantle a title team and them become a lottery team in 2 years. Cuban and Donnie have both been exposed, they've been riding Dirk's coattails for over a decade. What makes it worse is that Cuban is in LA doing some shiat show and neither him or Nelson have said a word to the fans about this debacle.


Dirk's 34. I'm not sure how much longer he has, and he's still very scary to face, but these are not his prime years. Vince Carter got a deal that's like 3million guaranteed or something. Whatever. What should the Mavs have done different?

If this Link is to be believed, the Mavs have 7 players under contract for a total of 44million next season, 41 the season after, and then pretty much nothing on the books. They're in fine shape to add talent. Maybe wait for them to have a roster before you jump off six bridges.
 
2012-07-06 05:18:59 PM

Dafatone: Dirk's 34. I'm not sure how much longer he has, and he's still very scary to face, but these are not his prime years.


He just had his best season over a year ago and he still has a few years as a superstar in this league. What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be the only team to dismantle a title team just to chase an overrated FA that got Sloan fired. They also have sat on their hands since and have let a whole lot of talent go to other teams. Cuban is being a cheap fark and isn't offering good players JACK. He seems to think that he will get Paul or Howard next year, what a moron!. Yeah, let's get rid of Terry for absolutely no reason (too cheap for 5 million, Cuban?). Let's sign Vince Carter over Delonte West, great move Mark and Donnie! Let's not amnesty worthless Haywood and then ignore a young Mahinmi! Seriously, none of these moves make sense and the Mavs front office is being cowardly and hasn't said ONE word to the fans. Imagine how pissed Dirk is right now. Like I said, if Cuban wants to be cheap and tank the team, then trade Dirk, he doesn't deserve to be on a shiat team.
 
2012-07-06 05:39:46 PM

TheJoe03: Dafatone: Dirk's 34. I'm not sure how much longer he has, and he's still very scary to face, but these are not his prime years.

He just had his best season over a year ago and he still has a few years as a superstar in this league. What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be the only team to dismantle a title team just to chase an overrated FA that got Sloan fired. They also have sat on their hands since and have let a whole lot of talent go to other teams. Cuban is being a cheap fark and isn't offering good players JACK. He seems to think that he will get Paul or Howard next year, what a moron!. Yeah, let's get rid of Terry for absolutely no reason (too cheap for 5 million, Cuban?). Let's sign Vince Carter over Delonte West, great move Mark and Donnie! Let's not amnesty worthless Haywood and then ignore a young Mahinmi! Seriously, none of these moves make sense and the Mavs front office is being cowardly and hasn't said ONE word to the fans. Imagine how pissed Dirk is right now. Like I said, if Cuban wants to be cheap and tank the team, then trade Dirk, he doesn't deserve to be on a shiat team.


Terry's worth 5m this year, most likely, but he'll be 35. You want him for 5m at ages 36 and 37?

West would be nice to hang on to, but it's not him or Carter. One's kind of a point guard and one's kind of a shooting guard (I say kind of because they're both a little flexible, but you'll get laughed at if West is your starting SG or if Carter's your starting PG. Laughed at a lot, in the case of Carter.) So if you want to be upset about not resigning Delonte, okay, but they could have kept both.

Haywood over Mahinmi's a little puzzling.

Still, they have a whole bunch of cap space and 5 roster spots to fill. It's not time to run an owner who got you a ring two seasons ago out of town.
 
2012-07-06 05:46:48 PM

H31N0US: js34603: Apparently being Asian is an advantage in the NBA. Who knew?

About a billion Chinamen.


What's odd is that Chinese nba fans don't actually care for Lin. They don't see him as a countryman and think he's rather mediocre or overhyped
 
2012-07-06 05:48:50 PM
It is if that one title now means he doesn't care anymore, and it seems like that might be the case. Plus Delonte>>>Carter, pluse West is a SG. Love the way he plays defense and he's not a geriatric like Carter. CARTER farkIN SUCKS! I also did want to keep Terry, he should of retired a Maverick, especially since him leaving has not led to us getting anyone better than him. Cuban and Donnie have failed incredibly thus far and only a miracle with mend their image right now. Cuban is going to get booed hard next year if he tanks next season, believe that. EVERY move he made since the title has been "puzzling" and quite frankly a joke.
 
2012-07-06 05:54:29 PM
Lin is a lottery ticket. If he is even okay though, the marketing will be worth a lot more than $40 million. That is especially true for the Rockets
 
2012-07-06 06:13:22 PM
I am so glad the Suns got rid of Nash. Now we can all see the Suns for what they really are. A bunch of stiffs whose only hope is to lose in the first round of the playoffs so their "fans" will gather around the cable television next season.

Buh bye Steve. Thanks for perpetuating the myth for all those years.
 
2012-07-06 07:28:43 PM

FireZs: MugzyBrown: FireZs: if by "exposed" you mean "held to a non-all-star performance".

Last 15 games:

14.5ppg
39% shooting
6.5 assists
3.9 turns

Those are bad stats. Doesn't even include being abused on the other end of the floor


Compared to Jason Kidd:

6.2 ppg
36.3% shooting
5.5 assists
1.9 turns

I'm talking about his stats in the context of people wanting to start Kidd over him. When his worst stats are beating Kidd's for the entire season, that's a little much.


Yeah, but Lin's a Chinaman, and so those kind of numbers are like an "F" for PGs of other races/ethnicities.
 
2012-07-06 09:33:00 PM
Wow, the Knicks are screwed either way. If they let Lin go, the fans will kill them. If they match the offer, they're stuck for four years with a guy who will prove to be hugely overrated.
 
2012-07-07 12:33:12 PM

Dafatone: If this Link is to be believed, the Mavs have 7 players under contract for a total of 44million next season, 41 the season after, and then pretty much nothing on the books. They're in fine shape to add talent. Maybe wait for them to have a roster before you jump off six bridges.


Yea, cause top-notch free agents are just foaming at the mouth to go to Dallas.
 
2012-07-07 12:45:11 PM

Slow To Return: Dafatone: If this Link is to be believed, the Mavs have 7 players under contract for a total of 44million next season, 41 the season after, and then pretty much nothing on the books. They're in fine shape to add talent. Maybe wait for them to have a roster before you jump off six bridges.

Yea, cause top-notch free agents are just foaming at the mouth to go to Dallas.


Good point. Dallas went 36-30 last year. They're not exactly tearing up the league, so I don't see why hanging on to an aging Jason Terry or Delonte West is so important. West, maybe.

But really, it comes down to one thing:

If you have Tyson Chandler, keep Tyson Chandler.
 
2012-07-07 02:51:52 PM

jayhawk88: Someone is going to have to explain to me why you would give Kidd $3 mil a year if you're planning on keeping Lin around. I get that Lin isn't the 30 ppg scorer he was those first two weeks, but he certainly proved himself good enough that he's the starter.

And don't tell me Kidd is just about getting another backup to replace Fields, because the free agency pool is just filled with cheap-ass PG's.


It's almost always a good idea to have a certified hall-of-fame talent who's known to be an excellent leader, team player, and positive locker-room presence, even if he's not a jump shooter and can't run like he used to. And Lin never played well with Anthony - somebody with Kidd's skills and acumen will help that team of talent figure out how to play together.
 
2012-07-07 03:06:45 PM

Dafatone: If you have Tyson Chandler, keep Tyson Chandler.


No shiat. Also if you don't see why we'd want to hold on to Jason Terry you really have no clue what being a fan is about. Dude should retire a Maverick, plus it isn't like we found a better replacement.
 
2012-07-07 04:00:55 PM

lilbjorn: Wow, the Knicks are screwed either way. If they let Lin go, the fans will kill them. If they match the offer, they're stuck for four years with a guy who will prove to be hugely overrated.


I believe reports say the fourth year is a team option. So there's only one year over the cap for the Knicks and 2 years at $5 mill. I say roll the dice and stick with him.
 
2012-07-07 09:02:40 PM

Contrabulous Flabtraption: FireZs: Contrabulous Flabtraption: My gut tells me Lin is a flash in the pan. I predict we never hear of him again other than the occasional, "Hey, remember how much money the Knicks/Rockets paid for Lin?"

My gut tells me your gut is racist.

Really? Because he's Asian it's racist for me to not believe he is going to be an all-star caliber player? The way I see it, he had a few exemplary games that - because he is one of the few Asian players in the NBA - were given far more coverage and hype than they would have had the numbers been put up by a white or black player. Now, huge expectations are in place that I don't think Lin over the long term will live up to.


I'm a Knick fan, and I"m hoping Lin stays in NY and has an All-Star season this year, but I won't be shocked if he ends up just being average.

Some of the hype surrounding him is just ridiculous.

From the NY Post:

Tuesday on MSG, as Lin, with eight minutes left, was leading the Knicks to a comeback win in Toronto, Mike Breen leaned on an old, understandable but suddenly misleading habit.

"Lin," he said, "has had another good game, scoring and assists, but he has also had seven turnovers."

Ah, but in a way - a big way - seven turnovers at that point was trace evidence of good play, not bad.

Teams that plan to succeed through the kind of high-energy play such as Lin's don't fret over turnovers; they might even prefer seven to two or three. Seven committed over 30-plus minutes of playing aggressive, fast-paced offense can lend itself to playing winning basketball.

Mistakes can be a byproduct of intelligent, better-idea risk-taking. George Washington had more losses than wins but won the war. You had to be a pretty good quarterback to be among career leaders in incomplete passes. And if Da Vinci got it right every time, he wouldn't have invented the paper shredder.

If the Knicks, or any team, plan to continue to succeed through the kind of play that Lin provides, Lin had better keep turning it over. Two or three per game just won't do it.

Link

It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.
 
2012-07-07 09:56:29 PM

HighOnCraic: It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.


You're making the narrative into something it isn't.

Lin's turnovers are proof he's not playing at HoF level at this point. However, a turnover is not the only way to lose the ball. Most rebounds are defensive (it makes sense -- the defense generally plays closer to the basket), so missed jump shots are almost as bad as turnovers. If someone shoots 7-for-20 with no free throw attempts and no turnovers, or someone shoots 11-for-20 but has four turnovers, who had the better game? You need more points to win, and not all 13 misses will end with offensive rebounds, so anyone who zooms in on the turnovers doesn't understand basketball. Basketball isn't like football where a single turnover changes the game.

Lin has turnovers because he's a PG and his style of play is aggressive. In fact, the times he's been overly cautious, the offense stagnated. A turnover for Lin is analogous to a strikeout in baseball -- they happen, they're not desirable, and it's a sign of aggressive play, but they're not evidence he's bad. Power hitters rack up strikeouts, to the tune of 100 per season or more. As long as they're productive, no one complains. If Lin was turning over the ball with nothing to show for it, then he wouldn't even be playing. But not only has the offense thrived with his play, the Knicks' offense seemed to be at its best when Lin's turnovers were in the 5-7 range. It wasn't just Lin's scoring; his drives resulted in opportunities for Chandler and Novak, who both shot lights-out last season.

They ARE evidence he's not great, but they're not evidence he's not productive. If he can maintain the productivity while limiting turnovers one day we might be able to call him legitimately great, but for now the Knicks need him to play aggressively, even if that means eating a lot of turnovers.
 
2012-07-07 10:14:29 PM
I agree, Lin is a good PG, but GREAT PGs and superstar 1s don't turn the ball over that much, no matter what style they have. That said, he turned NY's season around and it was incredible to watch.
 
2012-07-07 10:23:57 PM

dragonchild: HighOnCraic: It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.

You're making the narrative into something it isn't.

Lin's turnovers are proof he's not playing at HoF level at this point. However, a turnover is not the only way to lose the ball. Most rebounds are defensive (it makes sense -- the defense generally plays closer to the basket), so missed jump shots are almost as bad as turnovers. If someone shoots 7-for-20 with no free throw attempts and no turnovers, or someone shoots 11-for-20 but has four turnovers, who had the better game? You need more points to win, and not all 13 misses will end with offensive rebounds, so anyone who zooms in on the turnovers doesn't understand basketball. Basketball isn't like football where a single turnover changes the game.

Lin has turnovers because he's a PG and his style of play is aggressive. In fact, the times he's been overly cautious, the offense stagnated. A turnover for Lin is analogous to a strikeout in baseball -- they happen, they're not desirable, and it's a sign of aggressive play, but they're not evidence he's bad. Power hitters rack up strikeouts, to the tune of 100 per season or more. As long as they're productive, no one complains. If Lin was turning over the ball with nothing to show for it, then he wouldn't even be playing. But not only has the offense thrived with his play, the Knicks' offense seemed to be at its best when Lin's turnovers were in the 5-7 range. It wasn't just Lin's scoring; his drives resulted in opportunities for Chandler and Novak, who both shot lights-out last season.

They ARE evidence he's not great, but they're not evidence he's not productive. If he can maintain the productivity while limiting turnovers one day we might be able to call him legitimately great, but for now the Knicks need him to play aggressively, even if that means ea ...


I agree fully with the bold part, and I get what you're saying about his style of play, but the Post writer was trying to spin a high number of turnovers a proof that Lin is great.

"Mistakes can be a byproduct of intelligent, better-idea risk-taking. George Washington had more losses than wins but won the war. You had to be a pretty good quarterback to be among career leaders in incomplete passes. And if Da Vinci got it right every time, he wouldn't have invented the paper shredder.

If the Knicks, or any team, plan to continue to succeed through the kind of play that Lin provides, Lin had better keep turning it over. Two or three per game just won't do it."

Sure, you'll end up with more turnovers if you play an aggressive style, but that doesn't mean you should stop caring about turnovers completely.

More from the article:

TV must find way to clean up its act


So the nurse says: "Doctor, shall I boil the instruments?"

"No," says the doctor, "let's have them fried, for a change."

Old habits die hard. For example, four examples:

1) If this is truly the extended dawn of the all-in Jeremy Lin Era, then we need to rethink what we're watching and presumably enjoying.

Link

Personally, I can live with Lin turning it over three or four times a game, as long as his assist numbers stay strong. Mushnick (the writer) seems to think that instead of looking at a player's assist-to-turnover ratio, the turnovers should be added to the assists as positive stats.

And wtf? The "all-in Jeremy Lin Era"? I wish!
 
2012-07-07 10:47:54 PM

TheJoe03: I agree, Lin is a good PG, but GREAT PGs and superstar 1s don't turn the ball over that much, no matter what style they have. That said, he turned NY's season around and it was incredible to watch.


Exactly. There have been a lot of great players that played an up-tempo style, but their turnover-per-game averages were in the 2-4 range. Lin averaged close to 6 at one point (not sure what his final numbers were).

Link
 
2012-07-07 11:16:25 PM

HighOnCraic: It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.


I'd say that all the detractors came out of the woodwork and gave such an over-emphasis to turnovers that people had to step forward and point out that turnovers by themselves are not that bad.

Let's look at all his stats over the 25 games he started and where those averages place him against other PGs:

Shooting: 44.5% (11th, right above Derrick Rose)
3pt: 34.3% (22nd, tied with Jeff Teague)
Free throw attempts/game: 6.3 (1st, tied with Russell Westbrook)
Rebounds/game: 3.7 (3rd, tied with Ty Lawson)
Assists/game: 7.7 (8th, tied with Tony Parker)
Turnovers/game: 4.7 (1st, above Derron Williams @ 4.0)
Steals/game: 2 (3rd, above Russell Westbrook @ 1.7)
Blocks/game: 0.3 (3rd, tied with Jrue Holiday, Kemba Walker, Russell Westbrook and Brandon Jennings)
Points/game: 18.2 (6th, right below Tony Parker @ 18.3)

Are you really going to tell me the only thing that matters is the turnovers when all the other stats have him at the top of the league?
 
2012-07-09 10:12:49 AM

roncofooddehydrator: all the other stats have him at the top of the league?


you sure have a weird way of measuring "top of the league."

In fact, the only stat where he is on top of the league is turnovers. The ones where he's near the top of the league are mostly stats that don't matter much for PGs, like blocks and rebounds.
 
2012-07-09 10:33:29 AM

IAmRight: roncofooddehydrator: all the other stats have him at the top of the league?

you sure have a weird way of measuring "top of the league."

In fact, the only stat where he is on top of the league is turnovers. The ones where he's near the top of the league are mostly stats that don't matter much for PGs, like blocks and rebounds.


Last I checked there were 30 starting PGs in the league and the majority of Lin's stats fall into the top 3rd, with the exception of 3pt shooting and turnovers. Being a top 10 PG is not "top of the league" for you?

Also, you're crazy to believe that those stats don't matter for PGs. All stats matter for all players. If you can get an extra few rebounds,blocks and steals out of your PG position you take it.

Finally, what's the difference between a missed shot and a turnover? Deron Williams averaged 10.1 misses a game and 4.0 turnovers. Lin averaged 6.0 misses a game and 4.7 turnovers. Yet nobody is clamoring that Williams is a awful PG even though more of his possessions end up with no points and the other team getting the ball than Lin's.
 
2012-07-09 11:31:45 AM

roncofooddehydrator: Being a top 10 PG is not "top of the league" for you?


There are only 30-some teams, so #10 is what I'd call "above average starter". I'm happy to call Lin an "above average starter". Mind you that still makes him one of the ten best point guards in the world, but he's no Magic Johnson yet.

roncofooddehydrator: what's the difference between a missed shot and a turnover?


A missed shot can result in an offensive rebound or a set of free throws, so there's that. However, a missed jump shot usually results in neither, so I'm happy to equate a missed jumper for a turnover. In which case Lin isn't the biggest cause of turnovers even on his own team. J.R. Smith probably gave Knicks' opponents more freebies.
 
2012-07-09 11:43:57 AM

roncofooddehydrator: Finally, what's the difference between a missed shot and a turnover? Deron Williams averaged 10.1 misses a game and 4.0 turnovers.


The opportunity for an offensive rebound and the ability to set up your defense (not to mention the fact that you actually did have a chance to score on the possession). If you honestly think they're the same, and a fluid sport like basketball can be compared to a static sport like baseball, you're out of your mind.
 
2012-07-09 11:48:10 AM

IAmRight: roncofooddehydrator: Finally, what's the difference between a missed shot and a turnover? Deron Williams averaged 10.1 misses a game and 4.0 turnovers.

The opportunity for an offensive rebound and the ability to set up your defense (not to mention the fact that you actually did have a chance to score on the possession). If you honestly think they're the same, and a fluid sport like basketball can be compared to a static sport like baseball, you're out of your mind.


Not to mention that a TO has about a 50% chance of being a steal (league average for SPG), and those steals result in fast break points a good chunk of the time.
 
2012-07-09 11:55:28 AM

redmid17: Not to mention that a TO has about a 50% chance of being a steal


[citation needed]

An awful lot of turnovers are passes that went out of bounds.

As an aside, while I doubt it impacted Lin's seasonal stats enough to matter, it was almost funny seeing the other players try to mesh with him at first. Melo was such a ball-hog as a point forward that in a lot of games where Lin finished with 6-8 assists and 5-7 turnovers, he really should've had about 10-12 assists and 4-5 turnovers. He made crisp passes inside that were dropped or even flat-out missed by his shocked teammates. The rest of the non-assists were open looks Lin got his teammates that they just missed, particularly Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries.

/ No teammate of Steve Novak should have a jump shot that broken
 
2012-07-09 11:58:08 AM

dragonchild: The rest of the non-assists were open looks Lin got his teammates that they just missed, particularly Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries.


You think every other player's teammates made 100% of shots where they were passed to?
 
2012-07-09 12:00:38 PM

dragonchild: redmid17: Not to mention that a TO has about a 50% chance of being a steal

[citation needed]

An awful lot of turnovers are passes that went out of bounds.

As an aside, while I doubt it impacted Lin's seasonal stats enough to matter, it was almost funny seeing the other players try to mesh with him at first. Melo was such a ball-hog as a point forward that in a lot of games where Lin finished with 6-8 assists and 5-7 turnovers, he really should've had about 10-12 assists and 4-5 turnovers. He made crisp passes inside that were dropped or even flat-out missed by his shocked teammates. The rest of the non-assists were open looks Lin got his teammates that they just missed, particularly Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries.

/ No teammate of Steve Novak should have a jump shot that broken


NBA teams average around 14-16 TOs a game and between 6-8 steals a game. If you need anything more detailed then that, nba.com has a team stats section
 
2012-07-09 12:56:45 PM

roncofooddehydrator: HighOnCraic: It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.

I'd say that all the detractors came out of the woodwork and gave such an over-emphasis to turnovers that people had to step forward and point out that turnovers by themselves are not that bad.

Let's look at all his stats over the 25 games he started and where those averages place him against other PGs:

Shooting: 44.5% (11th, right above Derrick Rose)
3pt: 34.3% (22nd, tied with Jeff Teague)
Free throw attempts/game: 6.3 (1st, tied with Russell Westbrook)
Rebounds/game: 3.7 (3rd, tied with Ty Lawson)
Assists/game: 7.7 (8th, tied with Tony Parker)
Turnovers/game: 4.7 (1st, above Derron Williams @ 4.0)
Steals/game: 2 (3rd, above Russell Westbrook @ 1.7)
Blocks/game: 0.3 (3rd, tied with Jrue Holiday, Kemba Walker, Russell Westbrook and Brandon Jennings)
Points/game: 18.2 (6th, right below Tony Parker @ 18.3)

Are you really going to tell me the only thing that matters is the turnovers when all the other stats have him at the top of the league?


I'm definitely not saying that the only thing that matters is the turnovers. I'm saying that Lin needs to cut down on his turnovers to improve as a point guard, and as Knick fan, I hope they're able to re-sign him and that he'll be able to continue to run a fast-paced offense while cutting back on the turnovers.

The Post article, linked previously, is arguing that his turnovers are a positive stat and that he should turn the ball over more, because that's the only way to run a fast-paced offense, and two or three turnovers just isn't enough. In reality, lots of point guards have run fast-paced offenses and racked up plenty of assists while averaging 2-4 turnovers a game.

Link

Link

Again, I'm not saying Lin sucks and should be cut because of the turnovers. I'm actually a big fan of his, and I hope he comes back to the Garden, and I still hope he can cut down on the turnovers. Hell, Ewing was my favorite player, yet I wish he had spent more time driving to the basket instead or relying on his jump shot, but I still liked his game. It's possible to root for a player and still want to see a change in certain aspects of his game.
 
2012-07-09 01:00:58 PM

redmid17: NBA teams average around 14-16 TOs a game and between 6-8 steals a game.


Yeah, I figured that soon after I posted.

IAmRight: You think every other player's teammates made 100% of shots where they were passed to?


You can back off there, fella. This was personal observation and I said right out of the gate I doubt it happened enough to matter. But when you actually watch the plays and see an NBA starter in the paint whiff on a clean pass inside, you can't help but laugh.
 
2012-07-09 01:13:58 PM

HighOnCraic: roncofooddehydrator: HighOnCraic: It's as if, because Lin had a lot of turnovers, the whole concept of seeing turnovers as a bad thing had to be, um, thrown away to fit the narrative that he's the best point guard ever.

I'd say that all the detractors came out of the woodwork and gave such an over-emphasis to turnovers that people had to step forward and point out that turnovers by themselves are not that bad.

Let's look at all his stats over the 25 games he started and where those averages place him against other PGs:

Shooting: 44.5% (11th, right above Derrick Rose)
3pt: 34.3% (22nd, tied with Jeff Teague)
Free throw attempts/game: 6.3 (1st, tied with Russell Westbrook)
Rebounds/game: 3.7 (3rd, tied with Ty Lawson)
Assists/game: 7.7 (8th, tied with Tony Parker)
Turnovers/game: 4.7 (1st, above Derron Williams @ 4.0)
Steals/game: 2 (3rd, above Russell Westbrook @ 1.7)
Blocks/game: 0.3 (3rd, tied with Jrue Holiday, Kemba Walker, Russell Westbrook and Brandon Jennings)
Points/game: 18.2 (6th, right below Tony Parker @ 18.3)

Are you really going to tell me the only thing that matters is the turnovers when all the other stats have him at the top of the league?

I'm definitely not saying that the only thing that matters is the turnovers. I'm saying that Lin needs to cut down on his turnovers to improve as a point guard, and as Knick fan, I hope they're able to re-sign him and that he'll be able to continue to run a fast-paced offense while cutting back on the turnovers.

The Post article, linked previously, is arguing that his turnovers are a positive stat and that he should turn the ball over more, because that's the only way to run a fast-paced offense, and two or three turnovers just isn't enough. In reality, lots of point guards have run fast-paced offenses and racked up plenty of assists while averaging 2-4 turnovers a game.

Link

Link

Again, I'm not saying Lin sucks and should be cut because of the turnovers. I'm actually a big fan of his, and I hope he com ...


I'd be more concerned with his assist to turnover ratio myself, not just the turnovers. If you're going to expect more turnovers, you need to expect that many more assists coming your way because of the fast paced offense. Lin's pace as a starter might have been good for 8th or so in the league (which isn't ideal in that kind of offense), but his A/TO ratio was 35th.
 
2012-07-09 01:20:26 PM

dragonchild: But when you actually watch the plays and see an NBA starter in the paint whiff on a clean pass inside, you can't help but laugh.


It happens a lot on a lot of teams. Lin's an average player and he'll continue to be average. Not really worth getting all excited about having him, but at least it's not Mike Bibby.
 
2012-07-09 04:21:14 PM

IAmRight: The opportunity for an offensive rebound and the ability to set up your defense (not to mention the fact that you actually did have a chance to score on the possession). If you honestly think they're the same, and a fluid sport like basketball can be compared to a static sport like baseball, you're out of your mind.


That's kind of my point... you can't just focus on the turnovers, you have to look at all the stats. There are a multitude of stats that go into a player's performance and jumping on Lin for his turnovers without taking into account all that he brings to the table doesn't give a proper evaluation. Again, if turnovers are an indicator of how good/bad a PG is, then Deron Williams is an awful PG.
 
2012-07-09 04:25:48 PM

roncofooddehydrator: IAmRight: The opportunity for an offensive rebound and the ability to set up your defense (not to mention the fact that you actually did have a chance to score on the possession). If you honestly think they're the same, and a fluid sport like basketball can be compared to a static sport like baseball, you're out of your mind.

That's kind of my point... you can't just focus on the turnovers, you have to look at all the stats. There are a multitude of stats that go into a player's performance and jumping on Lin for his turnovers without taking into account all that he brings to the table doesn't give a proper evaluation. Again, if turnovers are an indicator of how good/bad a PG is, then Deron Williams is an awful PG.


Most people outside of NJ/Brooklyn could have told you he's not worth nearly $100 million
 
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