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(The New Republic)   Rep. Valarie Hodges (R-Watson) surprised to learn religious school vouchers are usable for religions besides those of the founders, presumably meaning Deism, tax aversion, and grinning a few hours each Sunday before heading to the Hellfire Club   (tnr.com) divider line 296
    More: Dumbass, freedom of religions, Hellfire Club, free-thinks, Christian school, Bobby Jindal  
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4442 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Jul 2012 at 10:12 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-06 11:03:44 AM

Exception Collection: vernonFL: brigid_fitch: You mean Deism, where they believed in reason and scientific observation over a Supreme Being?

One of the Founding Fathers was Catholic, and at least one of them were Quakers. One founding father was Jewish (though he is often ignored)

At least these days, Quaker is more of a lifestyle than a religion - there are Atheistic Quakers.


Quakers cover the whole spectrum. There are three main branches of Quakers in America: The Orthodox, the Hicksite, and the Fundamentalists. As I understand it, there is considerable wiggle room within each branch. Oh, and there are programmed and unprogrammed meetings. Unprogrammed meetings have no clergy. Programmed meetings have clergy and operate more like traditional protestant churches.
 
2012-07-06 11:03:51 AM

loonatic112358: if there's a racial bias against a group, how the hell is going to integrate? They can't just multiply in the hopes of greater numbers will cause them to be averaged in as a whole


not multiplying, inter-racial farking.

we'll eventually average out at beige, and have to find another reason to be assholes to each other.
 
2012-07-06 11:04:47 AM

heap: not multiplying, inter-racial farking.we'll eventually average out at beige, and have to find another reason to be assholes to each other.


I'm all fine with that

works out well too, most of the time
 
2012-07-06 11:05:32 AM

loonatic112358: Rent Party: Well if you're going to move the goal posts, fine. But you know those hispanics that don't speak Spanish? Most likely 3rd generation immigrants who's grandparents don't speak English.We are talking about integration into American society, not American racial bias./ Goalposts moved back.

odd you see them as different issues
if there's a racial bias against a group, how the hell is going to integrate?


They're going to learn the language and social norms of American society. That's what integration is. So for example, grandkids of Afghani parents will probably not be wearing the hajib and find "honor killings" abhorrent, even though mom might have worn the hajib and understood that honor killings are something that happens back in the homeland, while grandma sure as shiat wore the hajib and is glad no one is throwing rocks at her noggin.
 
2012-07-06 11:05:38 AM

meat0918: On a sliding scale the US does have one at the federal level and largely at the state level too, but could do better. Many of those other countries divested themselves of many of their more virulent strains of religion, either through prolonged bloody wars between sects, or they got up and moved to America in search of "religious freedom".

The state level secular governments are being eroded as we see in Louisiana, Texas, Tennessee, Alabama, and pretty much any state with a Republican controlled legislature. The federal level remains largely intact, but it is not for lack of trying on the part of these theocrats.


Most European governments are involved in one way or another with either an outright state church or a de facto one. Most European countries have blasphemy laws on the books and some of them enforce them.
 
2012-07-06 11:05:59 AM

Serious Black: Karac: Serious Black: How the hell could anyone think that religious freedom only applies to their own religion?

The first amendment protects freedom of religion. To make it apply to only Christians, all you have to do is hold the sincere belief that Islam (Mohammed), Scientology (Tom Cruise), Wicca (Fairuza Balk, Neve Campbell), Satanism (Ozzy), Hinduism (angus cows), Buddhism (Buddha), Mormonism (Joseph Smith), and Catholicism (the Pope) aren't really religions, but instead just weird personality cults looking to skate on taxes.

And the Christians aren't the same way?


Of course not. If you hunt around, you can find Buddha's grave and his body. You can find where Mohammed's corpse is. You can go dig up L. Ron or Joseph Smith or Abraham; you wouldn't even need a shovel for the Pope, he looks like a corpse already. Isis, FSM, rastafarianism, all religions other than Christianity were started by somebody who is dead and buried. You may have to hunt a good, damned long while to find the corpse, but it's there somewhere. Christianity is the only religion that you can't do that with, making it special, and the one, true faith.

I've had 30 years of listening to deep-fried Southern Baptist dogma, I can help you with any other questions you may have.
 
2012-07-06 11:06:20 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: loonatic112358: Serious Black: jigger: I am in favor of school vouchers (or scholarships or whatever the hell you want to call them) but if tax money is being spent on them, how in the hell is it constitutional when they are spent at religious institutions?

Because Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Thomas, and Scalia said so.

/I wish I wasn't kidding

It's taking a tax credit, which is lower then most folks pay in taxes and allowing them to apply it to a school

If they could write the expense off on taxes instead would you be fine with it? What would be the difference?

Making something available for everyone, and not locking them down to nonreligious schooling is not the same as mandating a state chosen religion

How would you feel about a tax credit for people who go to church on Sunday?


Don't they already have that Link
 
2012-07-06 11:06:55 AM

jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: So if the private school is wholly in charge of who they accept, the public schools get stuck with all of the less capable students. Then every one says "But look how much better the test scores are at the private schools."

If your private school accepts public vouchers you should be required to accept any child who applies, just like the public schools.

That defeats the entire purpose of the vouchers. Under the voucher system there would be no clear dividing line between "public" school and "private" school. The only real private school would be those who did not accept vouchers. The government-run schools would have to compete for vouchers too. The only thing that would keep them in business is if parents wanted to send their kids there.


If there is no clear dividing line, then all schools accepting vouchers MUST accept all students. Allowing some schools to pick and choose the best and leaving others with a requirement to provide an education to all is a clear dividing line.

Or do you intend to remove the guarantee of education to all while you are at it?
 
2012-07-06 11:07:03 AM

Karac: I get a little jolt of schadenfreude every time I imagine some precious snowflakes parents paying thousands of dollars a year to have their spawn graduate from one of those places, only to find out that not even Bob Jones University will accept their diplomas; meaning the kid has to go get a GED anyway.


I don't get it - do states not have graduation requirements anymore? I went to a private school, and I learned math, chemistry, English (and not the whole-language crap, either) in addition to Talmud and Bible, with Hebrew for the foreign language requirement.

If you want to get vouchers, fine - you've also gotta teach EVILution and safe sex (in biology class so as not to piss anyone off - there, it's just germ theory), history/social studies should include at least some slight nod to multiculturalism ("In the US, there are many different people from many different backgrounds and cultures" ought to cover as a bare minimum), English (and not the whole-language crap, either), etc. And probably some rules about teacher accreditation and class length (so you can't have a 5-minute biology class where "there's just not enough time to flesh out that EVILution thingy, plus it's real hard").

Is it so much to ask that the government put reasonable restrictions on billions in handouts/subsidies, and that those limits ensure a baseline academic experience of the students graduating? To at least pretend we can get useful citizens out of the deal; people who know the difference between "freedom to worship the Jesus of your choice" and "freedom to worship as you choose"?
 
2012-07-06 11:07:57 AM

Rent Party: They're going to learn the language and social norms of American society. That's what integration is. So for example, grandkids of Afghani parents will probably not be wearing the hajib and find "honor killings" abhorrent, even though mom might have worn the hajib and understood that honor killings are something that happens back in the homeland, while grandma sure as shiat wore the hajib and is glad no one is throwing rocks at her noggin.


we have different meanings there, but i'll concede your point
 
2012-07-06 11:09:12 AM

Karac: Serious Black: How the hell could anyone think that religious freedom only applies to their own religion?

The first amendment protects freedom of religion. To make it apply to only Christians, all you have to do is hold the sincere belief that Islam (Mohammed), Scientology (Tom Cruise), Wicca (Fairuza Balk, Neve Campbell), Satanism (Ozzy), Hinduism (angus cows), Buddhism (Buddha), Mormonism (Joseph Smith), and Catholicism (the Pope) aren't really religions, but instead just weird personality cults looking to skate on taxes.


Isn't satanism a Christian Sect?
 
2012-07-06 11:09:27 AM

loonatic112358: Rent Party: They're going to learn the language and social norms of American society. That's what integration is. So for example, grandkids of Afghani parents will probably not be wearing the hajib and find "honor killings" abhorrent, even though mom might have worn the hajib and understood that honor killings are something that happens back in the homeland, while grandma sure as shiat wore the hajib and is glad no one is throwing rocks at her noggin.

we have different meanings there


That is in my experience the source of 99% of all disagreement. :)
 
2012-07-06 11:09:38 AM

Lorelle: I thought it was rather interesting that Benjamin Franklin had a thing for older women and, when he was in Paris, attended sex orgies hosted by the Marquis de Sade.


DoBeDoBeDo: Franklin was a poon hound


A friend of Franklin's once wrote him for advice. It seemed that friend was falling head-over-heels for a much older woman, but was afraid that it might backfire on him in some way. Franklin's response? "And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement."

Sometimes I think Kennedy and Clinton may have been the most similar presidents to the founding fathers, simply from a personality standpoint. :)
 
2012-07-06 11:13:02 AM

Dr Dreidel: Karac: I get a little jolt of schadenfreude every time I imagine some precious snowflakes parents paying thousands of dollars a year to have their spawn graduate from one of those places, only to find out that not even Bob Jones University will accept their diplomas; meaning the kid has to go get a GED anyway.

I don't get it - do states not have graduation requirements anymore? I went to a private school, and I learned math, chemistry, English (and not the whole-language crap, either) in addition to Talmud and Bible, with Hebrew for the foreign language requirement.

If you want to get vouchers, fine - you've also gotta teach EVILution and safe sex


There's a strong corellation between states which are pushing for vouchers, states which are pushing for evolution and sex ed to be taken out of the public schools, and those that have the loosest requirements for state-approved diplomas.
 
2012-07-06 11:13:45 AM

spongeboob: Isn't satanism a Christian Sect?


depends on if they actually recognize anything from any of the Abrahamic religion
 
2012-07-06 11:13:56 AM

dprathbun: Jews are still ok, right?


Till Jesus comes back and then they will get what is coming to them.

encrypted-tbn0.google.com
It's in Revelations people
 
2012-07-06 11:14:31 AM
www.liveforfilms.com
 
2012-07-06 11:14:58 AM

fracto73: BeesNuts: fracto73: BeesNuts: I will not bow to any fane or acknowledge any spirit! I own only the empirical clarity of the Imperial Truth!


Imperial truth? You should switch to metric.

You have no idea how funny that actually is. At least... I don't think you were pantomiming Torgaddon... but that was perfect.

/Truth Conversions are so tricky in Standard Truth.


No I was not. After a quick google search for context, I must say I am not as much of a fan of the Space marine books as the Gaunt, Cain, Ravenor, and Eisenhorn books.


I'd recommend giving the first three Heresy books a go and then either running with Flight of the Eisenstein or the Garro shorts. Most of the Heresy is boring fluff, retreading the same foregone narrative over and over, but the first three summarize the rise and fall of Horus, and then you can read about how farking awesome Garro is in the immediate aftermath.

/At some point, Black Library became my sole source for fiction
//which accounts for about 15% of my word-intake.
 
2012-07-06 11:15:26 AM

Diogenes: vernonFL: brigid_fitch: You mean Deism, where they believed in reason and scientific observation over a Supreme Being?

One of the Founding Fathers was Catholic, and at least one of them were Quakers. One founding father was Jewish (though he is often ignored)

And one was a dawg who hit on Dolly Madison.

It has nothing to do with this thread but I just read a book of bios on the Signers that was really interesting, and I thought that was funny.


Was it Franklin?
 
2012-07-06 11:16:16 AM
I've worked at a college for 6 years now. When they bring in the new students you can pick private school kids out immediately. They dress like they're 60 and usually not interacting with the other students. You can pick home schooled kids out because they've missed the tour because they don't know how to travel outside their own neighborhood.

College is important, trust me I spent a bunch of time getting more degrees than I need, but in the job world being able to interact with other people is more important than a piece of paper. Employers can train you for the job, but if you don't work well with others you're not going to have an easy time. Home schooling your kid is like having a dog where you train them to do hundreds of tricks, but never let them spend any time around other dogs. Sure they can do some impressive stuff, but if anything involves their pack, they're pretty much screwed. In the modern world, there are few jobs that don't involve working with other people on some level
 
2012-07-06 11:16:21 AM
Sadly I live in Louisiana and I'm watching our educational system being flushed. This woman is only ONE of dozens who think like she does. Including our a**hole governor Boobie Gypall.
This isn't funny, its real and she's a representative!
 
2012-07-06 11:17:48 AM

Graffito: You know damn well that Ben Franklin was an atheist, and I'm will the bet the entire contents of my 401K that he would be for the health-care public-option.


I have no doubt that he would have wholeheartedly supported the pubic option, unlike this person:
a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com

:D
 
2012-07-06 11:18:02 AM

Philip Francis Queeg: If there is no clear dividing line, then all schools accepting vouchers MUST accept all students. Allowing some schools to pick and choose the best and leaving others with a requirement to provide an education to all is a clear dividing line.

Or do you intend to remove the guarantee of education to all while you are at it?


Should universities that accept government funding (read: all universities except one) be forced to accept all students?

And no one is guaranteed education. If you don't have the right inoculations or the right paperwork, you ain't goin to public school. It's not a right. It's a privilege, like driving on public roads. If you don't have the right paperwork, you ain't gettin a license and you aren't allowed to participate. If you're a terrible driver, eventually your license is revoked. If you're a disruptive kid, eventually you'll be expelled. It is not a right.

Why do you want to deny disruptive or un-vaccinated children their right to a public education?

What do you think will happen? People will fall through the cracks? These people will have vouchers worth thousands of dollars each. People will do what it takes to get that money. There will be schools who accept everyone. There will be some schools who won't.
 
2012-07-06 11:18:13 AM

bdub77: God I hate these people. They are like goddamn ants except they refuse to die. Seriously how are both Dick Cheney and Limbaugh still alive?


You can't kill that which has no soul.
 
2012-07-06 11:18:26 AM

suziequzie: Diogenes: vernonFL: brigid_fitch: You mean Deism, where they believed in reason and scientific observation over a Supreme Being?

One of the Founding Fathers was Catholic, and at least one of them were Quakers. One founding father was Jewish (though he is often ignored)

And one was a dawg who hit on Dolly Madison.

It has nothing to do with this thread but I just read a book of bios on the Signers that was really interesting, and I thought that was funny.

Was it Franklin?


Franklin was born at the right time. He was a total player, and the phone hadn't been invented yet.
 
2012-07-06 11:21:32 AM

ModernPrimitive01: College is important, trust me I spent a bunch of time getting more degrees than I need, but in the job world being able to interact with other people is more important than a piece of paper. Employers can train you for the job, but if you don't work well with others you're not going to have an easy time. Home schooling your kid is like having a dog where you train them to do hundreds of tricks, but never let them spend any time around other dogs. Sure they can do some impressive stuff, but if anything involves their pack, they're pretty much screwed. In the modern world, there are few jobs that don't involve working with other people on some level


if you've only worked at a college, you've really haven't worked in the real world yet

and what you see are likely the children of people who aren't very social, there are some of those in the homeschool group we run with, guess what they aren't very social with that group either. but the parents do live to complain when we're doing activities they don't like, course they never come to a meeting, never input anything but complaints and never show up at the activities.

why do i suddenly feel like a meme
 
2012-07-06 11:22:06 AM

Karac: Of course not. If you hunt around, you can find Buddha's grave and his body. You can find where Mohammed's corpse is. You can go dig up L. Ron or Joseph Smith or Abraham; you wouldn't even need a shovel for the Pope, he looks like a corpse already. Isis, FSM, rastafarianism, all religions other than Christianity were started by somebody who is dead and buried. You may have to hunt a good, damned long while to find the corpse, but it's there somewhere. Christianity is the only religion that you can't do that with, making it special, and the one, true faith.


So the lack of proof of Jesus's existence means that is all true. That's like denial of being an alcoholic is proof that one is, in fact, an alcoholic.
 
2012-07-06 11:22:08 AM

Karac: Dr Dreidel: Karac: I get a little jolt of schadenfreude every time I imagine some precious snowflakes parents paying thousands of dollars a year to have their spawn graduate from one of those places, only to find out that not even Bob Jones University will accept their diplomas; meaning the kid has to go get a GED anyway.

I don't get it - do states not have graduation requirements anymore? I went to a private school, and I learned math, chemistry, English (and not the whole-language crap, either) in addition to Talmud and Bible, with Hebrew for the foreign language requirement.

If you want to get vouchers, fine - you've also gotta teach EVILution and safe sex

There's a strong corellation between states which are pushing for vouchers, states which are pushing for evolution and sex ed to be taken out of the public schools, and those that have the loosest requirements for state-approved diplomas.


Aw, gee, sounds like someone wants money but doesn't wanna have to do anything for it. These are the same states, mind, with large groups harping about reducing federal spending and scaling back government.

So fine - they want this expansion, they have to play by some simple rules. You don't get to have a federally-funded Christian enclave school simply by wishing it to be so.

Life sucks; get a farking helmet.
 
2012-07-06 11:22:47 AM

jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: So if the private school is wholly in charge of who they accept, the public schools get stuck with all of the less capable students. Then every one says "But look how much better the test scores are at the private schools."

If your private school accepts public vouchers you should be required to accept any child who applies, just like the public schools.

That defeats the entire purpose of the vouchers. Under the voucher system there would be no clear dividing line between "public" school and "private" school. The only real private school would be those who did not accept vouchers. The government-run schools would have to compete for vouchers too. The only thing that would keep them in business is if parents wanted to send their kids there.


Then, by design, voucher systems annihilate public school budgets. But only after the public schools failed an entire generation.

I don't doubt that vouchers can work. I doubt that couvhers can work in the presence of our established educational system. And, in fact, I suspect that they CANNOT work in tandem with the existing system, and that one of the two systems will be obsolete in the next 20 years or so. Probably the public school system. Because poor people will all be joining the military to get education, health care, or opportunity of any kind. For many, military service is the only option, even today. If current trends persist, it's going to be the only option for many, many more. Get rich, join the army, or go to jail. Your choice.
 
2012-07-06 11:23:56 AM

Graffito: bdub77: God I hate these people. They are like goddamn ants except they refuse to die. Seriously how are both Dick Cheney and Limbaugh still alive?

You can't kill that which has no soul.


they live off the life force of others, that's the real secret behind the radio show, he uses the public airwaves as a source of power. The souls travel back to him on the aether, feeding him from his golden microphone.

Cheney being more powerful doesn't need such tricks, he can pull your life force out just be looking at you
 
2012-07-06 11:24:07 AM

spongeboob: Silly Jesus: Diogenes: Faith and politics aside, if this hadn't occurred to her earlier, she is too incompetent to serve.

If you are an adult with an imaginary friend, you are too incompetent to serve.

So being biased against non-religious people is bad but being biased against religious people is not?


If some part of your mind still functions on the level of that of a 2 year old then you should not be allowed to carry the powers inherent in holding public office. If you want to stick with the discrimination analogy...I vote that we should discriminate against imbeciles when it comes to holding public office. I think that's reasonable.
 
2012-07-06 11:25:33 AM

mysticcat: She's obviously a moran, but, to be fair, picking out some backwardass state representative and then extrapolating that to the entire Republican party is a stretch.



I wouldn't be half as pissed at my party right now if you were right and it wasn't fair. But unfortunately this is not exactly a fringe view in the republican party right now.
 
2012-07-06 11:25:37 AM

jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: If there is no clear dividing line, then all schools accepting vouchers MUST accept all students. Allowing some schools to pick and choose the best and leaving others with a requirement to provide an education to all is a clear dividing line.

Or do you intend to remove the guarantee of education to all while you are at it?

Should universities that accept government funding (read: all universities except one) be forced to accept all students?

And no one is guaranteed education. If you don't have the right inoculations or the right paperwork, you ain't goin to public school. It's not a right. It's a privilege, like driving on public roads. If you don't have the right paperwork, you ain't gettin a license and you aren't allowed to participate. If you're a terrible driver, eventually your license is revoked. If you're a disruptive kid, eventually you'll be expelled. It is not a right.

Why do you want to deny disruptive or un-vaccinated children their right to a public education?

What do you think will happen? People will fall through the cracks? These people will have vouchers worth thousands of dollars each. People will do what it takes to get that money. There will be schools who accept everyone. There will be some schools who won't.


We can count on folks like Jigger to be right there to help create and enforce the zero tolerance rules and other obstacles necessary to keep as many children as possible from the "privilege" of an education.
 
2012-07-06 11:25:49 AM

jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: If there is no clear dividing line, then all schools accepting vouchers MUST accept all students. Allowing some schools to pick and choose the best and leaving others with a requirement to provide an education to all is a clear dividing line.

Or do you intend to remove the guarantee of education to all while you are at it?

Should universities that accept government funding (read: all universities except one) be forced to accept all students?

And no one is guaranteed education. If you don't have the right inoculations or the right paperwork, you ain't goin to public school. It's not a right. It's a privilege, like driving on public roads. If you don't have the right paperwork, you ain't gettin a license and you aren't allowed to participate. If you're a terrible driver, eventually your license is revoked. If you're a disruptive kid, eventually you'll be expelled. It is not a right.

Why do you want to deny disruptive or un-vaccinated children their right to a public education?

What do you think will happen? People will fall through the cracks? These people will have vouchers worth thousands of dollars each. People will do what it takes to get that money. There will be schools who accept everyone. There will be some schools who won't.


Yeah, school children are just like drivers. Fark 'em if they screw up. Fark 'em good. Education is a privilege that an 8 year old must earn. If they don't , let them rot.. The free market can be trusted to decide who is worthy of being educated and who is sentenced to a lifetime of ignorance when they are 8 years old.
 
2012-07-06 11:26:05 AM

Silly Jesus: If some part of your mind still functions on the level of that of a 2 year old then you should not be allowed to carry the powers inherent in holding public office. If you want to stick with the discrimination analogy...I vote that we should discriminate against imbeciles when it comes to holding public office. I think that's reasonable.


I would have a public service draft where members of the legal profession are exempted (potential bias) and you have to meet minimum requirements, probably have people take an SAT type exam before instating them
 
2012-07-06 11:27:08 AM
www.atheistinamerica.com

media.tumblr.com
 
2012-07-06 11:27:16 AM
and just remember folks, before ya'll get tooo upset, most of the current requirements for office are rather low

like for president you have to be 35 and born in the US
for some of the other offices you have to be alive and have a pulse, but the pulse is optional
 
2012-07-06 11:27:37 AM

clkeagle: Lorelle: I thought it was rather interesting that Benjamin Franklin had a thing for older women and, when he was in Paris, attended sex orgies hosted by the Marquis de Sade.

DoBeDoBeDo: Franklin was a poon hound

A friend of Franklin's once wrote him for advice. It seemed that friend was falling head-over-heels for a much older woman, but was afraid that it might backfire on him in some way. Franklin's response? "And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement."

Sometimes I think Kennedy and Clinton may have been the most similar presidents to the founding fathers, simply from a personality standpoint. :)


Amazing even Franklin knew they all look the same with the lights out.

Play on playa
 
2012-07-06 11:28:15 AM

jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: If there is no clear dividing line, then all schools accepting vouchers MUST accept all students. Allowing some schools to pick and choose the best and leaving others with a requirement to provide an education to all is a clear dividing line.

Or do you intend to remove the guarantee of education to all while you are at it?

Should universities that accept government funding (read: all universities except one) be forced to accept all students?

And no one is guaranteed education. If you don't have the right inoculations or the right paperwork, you ain't goin to public school. It's not a right. It's a privilege, like driving on public roads. If you don't have the right paperwork, you ain't gettin a license and you aren't allowed to participate. If you're a terrible driver, eventually your license is revoked. If you're a disruptive kid, eventually you'll be expelled. It is not a right.

Why do you want to deny disruptive or un-vaccinated children their right to a public education?

What do you think will happen? People will fall through the cracks? These people will have vouchers worth thousands of dollars each. People will do what it takes to get that money. There will be schools who accept everyone. There will be some schools who won't.


Where have you been?

You are damn near demanded by the states to give your child some level of primary education. Secondary education, such as college, trade schools, etc. you are guaranteed equal protection and opportunity, but no one demands all adults go to college or trade school. Even when expelled, the parents are supposed to pick up the slack of find their child an institution that will accept them for education.

And there are only two states in the union that do not have exemptions for vaccination in their schools, those two being Mississippi and West Virginia of all places.

Vouchers have failed in this country, and part of the reason is parents think they are a panacea to their kids education problems.

Another issue, lack of regulation among the new for-profit schools popping up around the country offering "school choice". They promise outlandish results and great things for kids, and are failing time and again to provide them.

The problem is not the kids, and not even the teachers. It's these goddamn parents that treat school like a daycare facility.
 
2012-07-06 11:29:09 AM

Lunaville: We can count on folks like Jigger to be right there to help create and enforce the zero tolerance rules and other obstacles necessary to keep as many children as possible from the "privilege" of an education.


From yesterday:

VictoryCabal: I think the difference between conservatives and liberals really just boils down to a preference for avoiding type I errors vs. type II errors.

LIberals believe that feeding hungry children is important enough that we accept that a few people will game the system and get school meals that their children don't qualify for. Conservatives are willing to accept that a lot of children go hungry in order to make sure no one gets something they don't deserve.
 
2012-07-06 11:29:58 AM

Silly Jesus:


You see how early the Commie Secular humanists started to infiltrate?

TAKE BACK OUR GUB'MENT F'R JESUS!
 
2012-07-06 11:30:07 AM

bdub77: God I hate these people. They are like goddamn ants except they refuse to die. Seriously how are both Dick Cheney and Limbaugh still alive?


That is not dead which can eternal lie.
 
2012-07-06 11:30:15 AM

jigger: And no one is guaranteed education. If you don't have the right inoculations or the right paperwork, you ain't goin to public school. It's not a right. It's a privilege, like driving on public roads. If you don't have the right paperwork, you ain't gettin a license and you aren't allowed to participate. If you're a terrible driver, eventually your license is revoked. If you're a disruptive kid, eventually you'll be expelled. It is not a right.


Actually it is. Name me one single state or city where you can't send your kid to a public school. Sure they can kick you out, but they have to at least give you the chance first - you have to screw up first. It's not like driving - you can fail to get the permit for that before you even sit behind the wheel. You can get your kid in without vaccinations, you just have to say it's against your religion. And if you DON'T send your kid to any school eventually you'll have the cops or social services knocking on your door wanting to have a word with you.

And as for public universities, they have to accept applications from everybody. Obviously they may have more applications that seats, but they can't just ignore your application because you don't have the right connections. And way more than one single university is fully private and takes no public funds.
 
2012-07-06 11:30:26 AM

loonatic112358: Silly Jesus: If some part of your mind still functions on the level of that of a 2 year old then you should not be allowed to carry the powers inherent in holding public office. If you want to stick with the discrimination analogy...I vote that we should discriminate against imbeciles when it comes to holding public office. I think that's reasonable.

I would have a public service draft where members of the legal profession are exempted (potential bias) and you have to meet minimum requirements, probably have people take an SAT type exam before instating them


That would be a start. It wouldn't catch everything though. Many people have aced the SAT, and yet, still believe in angels and seek guidance from various imaginary friends.
 
2012-07-06 11:30:37 AM

loonatic112358: ModernPrimitive01: College is important, trust me I spent a bunch of time getting more degrees than I need, but in the job world being able to interact with other people is more important than a piece of paper. Employers can train you for the job, but if you don't work well with others you're not going to have an easy time. Home schooling your kid is like having a dog where you train them to do hundreds of tricks, but never let them spend any time around other dogs. Sure they can do some impressive stuff, but if anything involves their pack, they're pretty much screwed. In the modern world, there are few jobs that don't involve working with other people on some level

if you've only worked at a college, you've really haven't worked in the real world yet

and what you see are likely the children of people who aren't very social, there are some of those in the homeschool group we run with, guess what they aren't very social with that group either. but the parents do live to complain when we're doing activities they don't like, course they never come to a meeting, never input anything but complaints and never show up at the activities.

why do i suddenly feel like a meme


I've also worked as a manager at 3 different retail stores, worked as a cook, put together computers for a small company, sold insurance, farmed tobacco, and lots of other jobs to pay my way through school. I do hate the insinuation that working for a college isn't working in the real world. Is it not working for a private business that irks you? As a state employee I have the same problems people have in the private sector. Don't hate because I have better benefits than you.
 
2012-07-06 11:32:14 AM

BeesNuts: jigger: Philip Francis Queeg: So if the private school is wholly in charge of who they accept, the public schools get stuck with all of the less capable students. Then every one says "But look how much better the test scores are at the private schools."

If your private school accepts public vouchers you should be required to accept any child who applies, just like the public schools.

That defeats the entire purpose of the vouchers. Under the voucher system there would be no clear dividing line between "public" school and "private" school. The only real private school would be those who did not accept vouchers. The government-run schools would have to compete for vouchers too. The only thing that would keep them in business is if parents wanted to send their kids there.

Then, by design, voucher systems annihilate public school budgets. But only after the public schools failed an entire generation.



By "public school" you mean currently existing government-run schools. Yes, the system would be changed quite radically from the current system and those currently existing schools would now be forced to compete.

I don't doubt that vouchers can work. I doubt that couvhers can work in the presence of our established educational system. And, in fact, I suspect that they CANNOT work in tandem with the existing system, and that one of the two systems will be obsolete in the next 20 years or so. Probably the public school system. Because poor people will all be joining the military to get education, health care, or opportunity of any kind. For many, military service is the only option, even today. If current trends persist, it's going to be the only option for many, many more. Get rich, join the army, or go to jail. Your choice.

The two systems would not run in tandem. All students would have a voucher. Maybe you can ease into a new voucher system by giving present students "vouchers" but then school choice would be implemented within a few years.

In the present system there are far more government-run schools than private ones, or at least they handle way more students, the vast majority. Displacement of these students would take some time, and while that process occurs, the government-run schools would need to figure out what to do to compete.
 
2012-07-06 11:34:16 AM

Graffito: Karac: Of course not. If you hunt around, you can find Buddha's grave and his body. You can find where Mohammed's corpse is. You can go dig up L. Ron or Joseph Smith or Abraham; you wouldn't even need a shovel for the Pope, he looks like a corpse already. Isis, FSM, rastafarianism, all religions other than Christianity were started by somebody who is dead and buried. You may have to hunt a good, damned long while to find the corpse, but it's there somewhere. Christianity is the only religion that you can't do that with, making it special, and the one, true faith.

So the lack of proof of Jesus's existence means that is all true. That's like denial of being an alcoholic is proof that one is, in fact, an alcoholic.


Not to mention, you're not going to find L. Ron either. Cremated. Buried at sea. Official church documents say he "left his body behind" to "continue his research on another planet."

So kind of like Jesus, whose body is missing and official church documents say he was assumed body and soul into the realm of his father in heaven where he awaits his return.

So ... basically the same exactly level of silliness.
 
2012-07-06 11:34:51 AM

Karac: I've had 30 years of listening to deep-fried Southern Baptist dogma, I can help you with any other questions you may have.


I've been formulating a theory lately. More and more I get the impression that Christianity is a basic, "good" framework that has somehow gotten a ton of caveats to cover for any holes in the "logic". From your example -- A Christian starts asking questions about where the faith come from. Once in a while the usual claptrap doesn't work. They ask where Jesus is buried. "Um, he was buried here." So where is the body, "Um, he ... uhhh... ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN." That makes no sense. "Die, heretic!".

Another example: Live a good life. Die. Go to heaven. "Right, so I can kill myself and get to this awesome place faster?" Uhh... hmm. SUICIDE IS EVIL and the worst thing you can do! I know we didn't tell you that before, but it's been our credo since you brought it up forever!

Plenty of other issues that seem very much like they were tacked on tweaks ("virgin" birth, decided lack of historical evidence, contradictory books of the Bible).
 
2012-07-06 11:34:59 AM

jigger: Displacement of these students would take some time, and while that process occurs, the government-run schools would need to figure out what to do to compete.


Bible-based math and Jesus worksheets, I'm assuming.
 
2012-07-06 11:35:33 AM
upload.wikimedia.org

SO can I get a voucher for this school???

Some of Spelling's finest work.

Link
 
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