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(The New York Times)   Romney says that since healthcare mandate is a tax, Obama broke his promise not to raise taxes on middle class. Which therefore means that Romney admits that he raised taxes while governor   (nytimes.com) divider line 815
    More: Dumbass, President Obama, health care mandate, Lake Winnipesaukee, Bill Burton, Fourth of July Parade, Anthony M. Kennedy, federalisms, governors  
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2484 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Jul 2012 at 12:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-05 07:48:49 AM  

randomjsa: I'm not the one that's been arguing for the last year or longer that ObamaCare wasn't a tax


The argument for the constitutionality of the law under the power to tax was made before the Court(briefly) by the Administration.

"Somebody call for a Constitutional Scholar?"

writingjunkie.net
 
2012-07-05 07:50:55 AM  

Zerochance: Edsel: keylock71: ghostwind: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x320][m.ruvr.ru image 460x268]

Separated at birth? Mmmmmmm.... waffles.

I think this one sums it up nicely:

[sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 640x322]

WSJ editorial today rips him for his horribly-run campaign. In particular they singled out how he's playing right into the "rich out-of-touch white guy" stereotype.

Link?


Dude, how hard is it to find the lead editorial in today's Wall Street Journal?
 
Bf+
2012-07-05 07:53:52 AM  
Jeremy W. Peters: "middle class"
talentedapps.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-07-05 07:53:58 AM  

Edsel: Dude, how hard is it to find the lead editorial in today's Wall Street Journal?


NM - found it.
 
Bf+
2012-07-05 07:56:33 AM  

Bf+: Jeremy W. Peters: "middle class"
[talentedapps.files.wordpress.com image 200x194]


oops-- I guess that should have been attributed to Romney, not the author.
Now I understand the confusion. Romney can't possibly know what "middle class" means.
 
2012-07-05 08:03:10 AM  

Expolaris: Mitt has taken a quantum political stance, the Schrodinger position. One only a highly advanced political robot such as himself could maintain, as it would break our poor meaty bodies in trying to do so.


bluenred.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-07-05 08:05:26 AM  

Edsel: WSJ editorial today rips him for his horribly-run campaign. In particular they singled out how he's playing right into the "rich out-of-touch white guy" stereotype.


Romney has no choice... He is a rich out-of-touch white guy. Might as well ask a Zebra to get rid of its stripes.

His sense of privilege and status oozes from his pores. You can observe people like Romney on the Cape during the Summer months. They don't think they're better than you, they know they're better than you and act accordingly. Oh, sure, they're polite most of the time, but if something doesn't go their way, you will quickly get a glimpse of their true feelings about their fellow Americans, who are less wealthy and privileged.
 
2012-07-05 08:06:43 AM  

Krieghund: mat catastrophe: [politicalcompass.org image 640x328]

Look! Here's a coordinate system with the two candidates and a bunch of people no one cares about!
It makes it look like the candidates have virtually the same opinion on every issue!
Both sides are the same, so vote Republican!


This must me a moveon.org talking point or something because it's really all the Democrats have to say when you point out that Obama is a raging centrist who is not particularly different from Romney.

And please, don't talk about how he's going to stick it to the banks, because he hasn't yet. Or how he's going to restart a vibrant public works program, because he isn't.

He is going to continue with his kindler, gentler brand of neoconservative foreign policy and milquetoast domestic policy, occasionally throwing a few crumbs out to appease the culture warriors.

So, if you really want to do something to change your life, you would ignore national politics as much as possible and focus on electing real progressive to your town or city council. Or, you can keep pretending that American "left" and "right" are different at the Presidential level.

/vote socialist.
 
2012-07-05 08:08:39 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: Expolaris: Mitt has taken a quantum political stance, the Schrodinger position. One only a highly advanced political robot such as himself could maintain, as it would break our poor meaty bodies in trying to do so.

[bluenred.files.wordpress.com image 600x525]


You just got favorited as 'Quantum Testicle'.

cdn2.diggstatic.com
 
2012-07-05 08:09:53 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: [pic80.picturetrail.com image 418x520]

/not mine


i'm stealing that.
 
2012-07-05 08:14:48 AM  

mat catastrophe: So, if you really want to do something to change your life, you would ignore national politics as much as possible and focus on electing real progressive to your town or city council. Or, you can keep pretending that American "left" and "right" are different at the Presidential level.


If you ALWAYS vote for the most left candidate and convince others to do the same, then things will get more left.

If you "ignore national politics as much as possible" then things will get less left.
 
2012-07-05 08:21:45 AM  

Expolaris: You just got favorited as 'Quantum Testicle'.


Oh, I didn't make that one; it's just an old favourite. :)
 
2012-07-05 08:27:09 AM  
I've been listening to archived editions of Wait, wait....don't tell me just for the helluvit, and the ones from 2008 are hilarious just for the references to how much Romney was hated, no, loathed, no, reviled by virtually the entire Republican party and constituents. The fact that they have to embrace him now I find hilarious.
 
2012-07-05 08:38:06 AM  
If you think the NYTimes is being rough on Romney, you should check out what the WSJ is saying. They're brutal, and I expect Romney to "shake up" his campaign staff soon.

/Never piss off Rupert
//unfetchable - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304141204577506652734793 044.html
 
2012-07-05 08:43:04 AM  

ghostwind: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x320][m.ruvr.ru image 460x268]

Separated at birth? Mmmmmmm.... waffles.


It's seriously difficult to imagine two more smug, self-impressed, entitled douchebags than Kerry and Romney. I'm white myself, but these two jackbags make even me start to hate white people a little.
 
2012-07-05 08:44:47 AM  

Barricaded Gunman: ghostwind: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x320][m.ruvr.ru image 460x268]

Separated at birth? Mmmmmmm.... waffles.

It's seriously difficult to imagine two more smug, self-impressed, entitled douchebags than Kerry and Romney. I'm white myself, but these two jackbags make even me start to hate white people a little.


www.thechicagodope.com
 
2012-07-05 08:46:23 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: Expolaris: You just got favorited as 'Quantum Testicle'.

Oh, I didn't make that one; it's just an old favourite. :)


Even still, i need to know who are the Trolls and who is actually awesome in the politics tab.

litechat.net
 
2012-07-05 08:48:18 AM  
The basis question of the whole health care debate: if someone needs life-saving medical care, should they get it even if they cannot afford it? And no, saying that you can get anything you need at an ER doesn't count since you can't. ER's don't do chemotherapy or radiation, they don't do dialysis, they don't do a whole range of preventative services.

If you answer that yes, grandma with bad kidneys shouldn't be left to rot, then next you have to answer the question of where the money to pay for it does come from. And you know what, Obama came up with an answer to that while the republicans are still debating which church should have a bake sale. A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow, and infinitely preferable to a shiatty plan sometime if the unspecified future after the president is no longer a democrat.
 
2012-07-05 08:48:49 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: The argument for the constitutionality of the law under the power to tax was made before the Court(briefly) by the Administration.


Yes, the administration made that argument before the court after the court rejected their other arguments, but they've taken great pains to avoid the word "tax" when discussing the law with the public. While it has no practical implication what the word used is, they've been calling it a "penalty".

There's spin on both sides on this one. The conservatives want to call it a tax because they know they've conditioned Americans to just automatically hate anything that's a tax. The administration want to call it a penalty for the same reason.

It's a tax, they argued in court that it was a tax, but when discussing it with the public the administration clearly took great pains to spin it by referring to it as a penalty.

The real problem here is less that there's typical political spin going on and more that it seems to actually have a chance of working. The notion that the public could be so heavily influenced in their opinion of a complex law like the Affordable Care Act by the alteration of single word within (especially when the actual implications don't change when the word does) is extremely depressing.
 
2012-07-05 08:49:36 AM  

Hastor: Sabyen91: Gwyrddu: mat catastrophe: [politicalcompass.org image 640x328]

I would think Mitt Romney's dot would be a lot bigger. I mean, how do you pin down any of his positions to that narrow a coordinate? Romney's position usually are to the right, to the left, to the north and to the south of most of those candidates, often in the same interview.

I think his dot should encompass all points...and points that aren't measured.

The really sad part is this isn't that much of an exaggeration. In the span of 3 days Romney has gone from 'an individual mandate is not a tax - it's a penalty' to 'the individual mandate is a tax' to 'Obama's individual mandate is a tax but my mandate was a penalty'.

Honestly is there a stance he could take on this that he hasn't occupied in the last couple days? He's trying to have his cake, eat it, and claim to be on a diet all at the same time.


Reminds me of one of my Senators, Johnny Isakson. He amended the healthcare bill to include Medicare coverage of living will consultation meetings (AKA, you see your doctor and discuss treatment options in the case of an emergency so the doctor knows what treatments you want or if you want them to pull the plug if you're in a coma, since without such paperwork they're required to try everything if they want to avoid wrongful death suits.) Living will consultations became characterized as death panels by chain e-mails claiming Medicare was going to pay doctors to convince you to turn down treatment and essentially commit suicide to save the government money. Isakson was interviewed and asked if he agreed this section of the law was a death panel, since he had defended it as good sense policy before (which it really is.) He basically said that the death panels that people were complaining about were in the House bill (since the e-mails cited a certain page/subsection of the bill), and not the identical language he inserted into the Senate bill which does not contain death panels.

In case anyone was wondering, the Medicare consultations were dropped by Democrats to prove that they had eliminated the non-existant death panels. This is why we can't have nice things.
 
2012-07-05 08:51:41 AM  

hubiestubert: He really isn't good at this campaigning thing is he?

You'd think after five years he'd have at least gotten better...


Five? More like 8-9. He started his presidential campaign the day he was elected governor of Massachusetts. For the last two years of that he barely was in the state at all.
 
2012-07-05 08:57:55 AM  
Romney's argument: IOKIYAR
 
2012-07-05 08:58:36 AM  
 
2012-07-05 09:01:54 AM  
Whether you call it a tax or a penalty who cares. This battle should be fought over the merits of why Nobambi insists on destroying the finest health care system in the world. Just another blown opportunity by Smittens, I guess.
 
2012-07-05 09:02:33 AM  

mat catastrophe: Or, you can keep pretending that American "left" and "right" are different at the Presidential level.


Presidential "right" - let's invade Iraq for no particular reason except the one we just pulled out of our ass and know smells like bullshiat.
Presidential "left" - Iraq's broke, and since we as a foriegn power can't fix it, howsabout we just go home and stop bleeding all over the damn place.

Seems like a fairly big difference to me.
 
2012-07-05 09:03:42 AM  

Crewmannumber6: I've been listening to archived editions of Wait, wait....don't tell me just for the helluvit, and the ones from 2008 are hilarious just for the references to how much Romney was hated, no, loathed, no, reviled by virtually the entire Republican party and constituents. The fact that they have to embrace him now I find hilarious.


It helps that the Repubs and Teabaggers are united by hate;

The Roberts rule is in, the tax is in, and zero is a criminal usurping bastard.
 
2012-07-05 09:07:39 AM  

Karac: mat catastrophe: Or, you can keep pretending that American "left" and "right" are different at the Presidential level.

Presidential "right" - let's invade Iraq for no particular reason except the one we just pulled out of our ass and know smells like bullshiat.
Presidential "left" - Iraq's broke, and since we as a foriegn power can't fix it, howsabout we just go home and stop bleeding all over the damn place.

Seems like a fairly big difference to me.



The "Left" didn't pull us out of Iraq. You might be able to argue that someone on the "right" was going to break our agreement, but you'll need proof if you want to be believed.

The right and left in this country have plenty of differences, but this isn't one of them. Compare Iraq to Libia if you want to see a real difference.
 
2012-07-05 09:08:20 AM  

snowshovel: Whether you call it a tax or a penalty who cares. This battle should be fought over the merits of why Nobambi insists on destroying the finest health care system in the world. Just another blown opportunity by Smittens, I guess.


30 million with out insurance is a feature not a bug!
 
2012-07-05 09:09:19 AM  

randomjsa: Obama: It's not a tax and it's covered by the commerce clause, thus making it Constitutional.

SCOTUS: It's not covered by the commerce clause but it's Constitutional because its a tax.

Obama: I'm sure glad I'm an expert on the Constitution, I would hate to have been wrong about that. I totally didn't mislead anyone at all either.



Can others play here?

Romney: I did not raise taxes while governor.

Press: What about what was raised with Romneycare?

Romney: That was a penalty or a fee.

SCOTUS: Obamacare's penalty modeled after Romneycares is a tax.

Derp Brigade: See Obama raised taxes (ignoring that less than 2% are likely to have to pay this and it has not gone into effect yet.)

Romney: What Obama did was a tax.

Now will the media and Derp Brigade ask Romney the obvious question: Where you lying to us then or now about the RomneyCare penalty not being a tax?
 
2012-07-05 09:12:40 AM  

snowshovel: This battle should be fought over the merits of why Nobambi insists on destroying the finest health care system in the world.


Forgive me if you're just being facetious (It's early, I'm hung-over), but we've basically had the same plan here in Massachusetts for several years now, and the Commonwealth still has some of the best health care and hospitals in the country, continually rank among the fittest and healthiest states in the country, and we have nearly 98% of the residents of the Commonwealth covered.
 
2012-07-05 09:23:26 AM  
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2012-07-05 09:24:23 AM  

NateGrey: [sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 626x485]


Is that his Citizens United money? :P
 
2012-07-05 09:25:29 AM  
Who did this clown bribe or blow to get elected governor?
 
2012-07-05 09:26:22 AM  

snowshovel: Whether you call it a tax or a penalty who cares. This battle should be fought over the merits of why Nobambi insists on destroying the finest health care system in the world. Just another blown opportunity by Smittens, I guess.


That's not snow you're shoveling.
 
2012-07-05 09:26:59 AM  

NateGrey: [sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 626x485]


Do you actually believe that, or are you posting it sarcastically?
 
2012-07-05 09:29:38 AM  

Barricaded Gunman: It's seriously difficult to imagine two more smug, self-impressed, entitled douchebags than Kerry and Romney.


Kerry was clueless, but he wasn't malicious. The fact that he volunteered to serve in Vietnam is definitely a sign of character. I think he just underestimated the effectiveness of Rovian tactics for one, since it seemed to take him forever to respond to anything. He also miscalculated badly with the Edwards VP pick, since, sexual peccadilloes aside, he was also too inexperienced to go up against Cheney. The Dark Lord pretty much chewed him up and spat him out in the debates.

Romney on the other hand, just oozes entitlement. He's the perennial candidate that just has to be President. I am deeply concerned by his gang of "investors" like Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers. All candidates kowtow to special interests but I don't think I've ever seen a candidate that was more openly bought and paid for than Romney.
 
2012-07-05 09:45:46 AM  
He just went FUll Etch-a-Sketch.
 
2012-07-05 09:47:54 AM  
In the same 36 hour period Romney has said it's a tax so it's constitutional, but it wasn't a tax when he did it, and he sides with the minority SCotUS feelings, but agrees with the majority SCotUS decision.

Holy farking shiat, that's some serious contortion.
 
2012-07-05 09:49:16 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: It does nothing to contain medical care costs

I hear this a lot, and aside from properly socializing our medical care, the government can't do much more than diddly and a dash of squat to control increasing healthcare costs.

and artificially drives up demand for private insurance, thus guaranteeing that prices remain high and those who truly need coverage are still left holding the bag.

This doesn't make any sense. I've tried three times to respond to it, but the thoughts are so disparate, the sentiments so contradictory that I simply can't say much more than, "do you understand how insurance works? or are you repeating a bumper sticker slogan? I feel like I've heard those phrases before..."
 
2012-07-05 09:50:49 AM  

hubiestubert: He really isn't good at this campaigning thing is he?

You'd think after five years he'd have at least gotten better...


No, he really isnt.

What's really remarkable is by this point in the campaign...with all the competition being knocked out...each party's best and brightest have gravitated towards the remaining campaign so this is the point where one should really hit their stride. A defined message, a staff (and candidate) that knows and stays on that message, and the public by this point should have a pretty good idea what it is in for should that candidate win.

Instead it's complete, total farking confusion on Romney's side. He's largely to blame...he's a shiatty, horrible candidate that would never have won the nomination were anyone halfway competent running against him. But his party is completely farking him as well by dictating terms he needs to follow that are in direct opposition to some of his own positions. This is the perfect example. The national party is basically farking him with this 'tax' approach and saying "He's farked anyway, so we might as well try to get ours at the state and local levels."

A strong candidate wouldn't permit it. They would dictate the terms. Obama did it in 2008. Bush for all his faults did it.

I just can't believe how undisciplined and just plain weak the guy is. Maybe it's a life of entitlement just making a weak person that can't handle adversity. Maybe it's the result of being completely unprincipled in a situation where principles really matter. Whatever the reason, the fact as you say is he's just a really awful candidate. He makes Kerry look good, and thoughts of watching Kerry campaign remain painful to this day.
 
2012-07-05 09:51:48 AM  

zarberg: In the same 36 hour period Romney has said it's a tax so it's constitutional, but it wasn't a tax when he did it, and he sides with the minority SCotUS feelings, but agrees with the majority SCotUS decision.

Holy farking shiat, that's some serious contortion.


If this guy were any phonier, there would be blade runners chasing him.
 
2012-07-05 09:52:24 AM  

mobile_home_refush: He just went FUll Etch-a-Sketch.


He crossed an event horizon and now writes on the screen while simultaneously shaking the Etch-a-Sketch clean.
 
2012-07-05 09:52:54 AM  

Zerochance: Barricaded Gunman: It's seriously difficult to imagine two more smug, self-impressed, entitled douchebags than Kerry and Romney.

Kerry was clueless, but he wasn't malicious. The fact that he volunteered to serve in Vietnam is definitely a sign of character. I think he just underestimated the effectiveness of Rovian tactics for one, since it seemed to take him forever to respond to anything. He also miscalculated badly with the Edwards VP pick, since, sexual peccadilloes aside, he was also too inexperienced to go up against Cheney. The Dark Lord pretty much chewed him up and spat him out in the debates.

Romney on the other hand, just oozes entitlement. He's the perennial candidate that just has to be President. I am deeply concerned by his gang of "investors" like Sheldon Adelson and the Koch brothers. All candidates kowtow to special interests but I don't think I've ever seen a candidate that was more openly bought and paid for than Romney.


I think that is a little revisionist concerning Kerry and Edwards. The Swift Boat thing really sunk him. The debates were flat, no policy issue was won or lost, the election wasn't won or lost on the charisma of any candidate. Swift Boat and Memogate... really that simple. John Kerry is a all around decent guy... I don't know how anyone can look at his record and hear him speak and come away with smug or clueless.
 
2012-07-05 09:54:03 AM  
Romneybott-3000 goes into looping code for tax answers. Time to reboot.
 
2012-07-05 09:55:45 AM  

zarberg: In the same 36 hour period Romney has said it's a tax so it's constitutional, but it wasn't a tax when he did it, and he sides with the minority SCotUS feelings, but agrees with the majority SCotUS decision.

Holy farking shiat, that's some serious contortion.


He's like the bastard love child of Stretch Armstrong and Reed Richards.
 
2012-07-05 09:55:55 AM  
Who cares what Mitt Romney's position is on anything? It's always a) the opposite of Obama's and 2) whatever appeals to the repub base at the moment. Come to think of it, that's the official repub attitude on every issue, so I guess Romney's not that far out of touch after all. How else can you scream for poor people to have "skin in the game" by paying more taxes, then complain about what is, essentially, a tax on poor people?

Aesop - The Ant and the Grasshopper

In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.

"Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?"

"I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same."

"Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; "We have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil.

President Beetle ordered that Grasshopper must store up food for the winter. "No!" said the Ant. "If Grasshopper wants to not store up food and die of starvation, that is his decision. You cannot force your unfair tax on me by making him pay more."

And that fall, during the presidential election, Ant voted for Cockroach.
 
2012-07-05 09:58:20 AM  

karmaceutical: I think that is a little revisionist concerning Kerry and Edwards. The Swift Boat thing really sunk him.


That election always came across as the dems picking Kerry based entirely on the notion that "even the Republicans aren't disgusting enough to shiat all over a Vietnam veteran!"

And then the Republicans proved them wrong.
 
2012-07-05 09:59:46 AM  
clambam:

Then what?!? Did Cockroach win the election?
 
2012-07-05 10:01:14 AM  

Shrugging Atlas: hubiestubert: He really isn't good at this campaigning thing is he?

You'd think after five years he'd have at least gotten better...

No, he really isnt.

What's really remarkable is by this point in the campaign...with all the competition being knocked out...each party's best and brightest have gravitated towards the remaining campaign so this is the point where one should really hit their stride. A defined message, a staff (and candidate) that knows and stays on that message, and the public by this point should have a pretty good idea what it is in for should that candidate win.

Instead it's complete, total farking confusion on Romney's side. He's largely to blame...he's a shiatty, horrible candidate that would never have won the nomination were anyone halfway competent running against him. But his party is completely farking him as well by dictating terms he needs to follow that are in direct opposition to some of his own positions. This is the perfect example. The national party is basically farking him with this 'tax' approach and saying "He's farked anyway, so we might as well try to get ours at the state and local levels."

A strong candidate wouldn't permit it. They would dictate the terms. Obama did it in 2008. Bush for all his faults did it.

I just can't believe how undisciplined and just plain weak the guy is. Maybe it's a life of entitlement just making a weak person that can't handle adversity. Maybe it's the result of being completely unprincipled in a situation where principles really matter. Whatever the reason, the fact as you say is he's just a really awful candidate. He makes Kerry look good, and thoughts of watching Kerry campaign remain painful to this day.


I think part of the problem for the Republicans both this year, and to a lesser extent in 2008, is that the "best and the brightest" are trying to keep a demographic that they don't really agree with or even fully understand. They know they have to keep the serious derpers at least somewhat mollified, even if the party strategist think that many of their positions are stupid.

"We have to say this, even though we know deep down it's nuts" us not an attitude that's likely to lead to a coherent message.

Secondly, since they don't really understand the serious derper mindset, they have trouble when they must interact with those figures within the party. The Palin issues in 2008 is the prime example of this, but you can look at the Boehner relationship with Cantor and the TP freshman last summer as well. Romney is almost assuredly going to have to chose a VP with serious credentials with the derper wing of the party. I see little that makes me think the Romney team, or the party strategists in general are going to be any better off in trying to manage that relationship
 
2012-07-05 10:01:37 AM  

theknuckler_33: You got a citation for that?


The IRS. http://www.irs.gov/retirement/participant/article/0,,id=211358,00.html

The logical limit is the one you stated. Since there's a limit on how much you can contribute while getting a deduction and a tax for excess contributions, I'll suggest that it happens rarely. And Romney is many things, but he (or his wellpaid tax lawyers) is not dumb with numbers.
 
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