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(BBC)   What do you call a man with no legs who goes to the Olympics? An Olympian   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 212
    More: Spiffy, Oscar Pistorius, Paralympics, Court of Arbitration for Sport, IAAF, olympics, legs  
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6700 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jul 2012 at 10:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-05 06:45:45 AM
I will also run in the olympics! I am a little bit disabled by laziness, a car is what I use to get around. I'll be "running" at 100 mph as long as my car has gas. I'll definitely win the gold medal!
 
2012-07-05 07:07:44 AM

GreenSun: I will also run in the olympics! I am a little bit disabled by laziness, a car is what I use to get around. I'll be "running" at 100 mph as long as my car has gas. I'll definitely win the gold medal!


if your gas has ethanol in it it's a banned performance enhancer
 
2012-07-05 07:17:50 AM
Wow, if anything, this thread got stupider after I left last night.

Have fun y'all.

Feral Duhbya: One panino, two panini.
One paparazzo, two paparazzi.
One castrato, two castrati.

/Italian Nazi
//Much like Benito


Except that Benito was un fascisto, not a Nazi.
 
2012-07-05 07:23:20 AM
Bacause they don't produce the same lactic acid in response to the physical exertion, prosthetic springs don't experience local fatigue the same as human feet and calf muscles. Also, they don't add their lactic acid to the body's total, resulting in less "total fatigue" to the body as a whole. Not to mention, they reduce his "un-sprung weight". Meaningless to most people, this means that he has to produce less effort to pump those legs up and down. They are thusly a three-fold advantage.
 
2012-07-05 07:38:47 AM
1. chop off limbs
2. train like the dickens??
3. win!!!
 
2012-07-05 07:54:00 AM

Sargun: If this guy had an advantage he wouldn't have missed his shot at the real event he was participating in and only gotten in on a technicality by participating on a relay team.


Umm not really.. maybe if he had full legs he'd be a really slow runner, but with these he's barely an olympic runner. That'd be an advantage.
 
2012-07-05 08:10:38 AM

WhyteRaven74: BTW there are many other sprinters who run with prosthetic legs, the same legs as Pistorius uses. And they're nowhere near the times for runners with two real legs. Hell runners with one prosthetic leg are nowhere near those times.


You're going off the flawed assumption that all other things are equal before the legs. They're not. He's a superior athlete to others using these legs.

One question settles this argument for me: Can any other athlete use the equivalent devices to race? The answer to that is no. Only legless athletes would be able to use them. There is no runner that is allowed a certain shoe that others can't use (to my knowledge). Look at his time variance by distance (1-50 50, 51-100, 101-150, etc) and compare those to others.
 
2012-07-05 08:42:29 AM

Your Average Witty Fark User: You armchair fat farks who want to cry about an unfair advantage should do some farking research before you spew your ignorance:

"We did energetic tests to see how much oxygen Oscar was consuming. We looked at his rate of fatigue; we looked at biomechanics - how much force he applies, his step length and his stride frequency," Herr, who is also a double below-the-knee amputee, told Life's Little Mysteries. In all categories, Pistorius' performance followed the same trends as other top athletes. [How Do Athletes Get 'In the Zone' of Peak Performance?]

"People argued that Oscar had an unnatural rate of fatigue," Herr said. They claimed that his artificial limbs gave him extra stamina. But it isn't true. "To measure the rate of fatigue, you take a treadmill and turn it on at a particular speed. He jumps on and starts running, and you time how long he can maintain that speed. You do this at several speeds, then plot normalized speed versus duration, and you get a curve. Many sprinting athletes follow a similar curve. We found that Oscar follows the same trend." In short, he got just as tired using his blades as everyone else did using their calves and ankles.

Furthermore, Herr explained, if Pistorius' prosthetics work better than biological limbs, they'd be giving a boost to other amputees, too. "The technology is not new: For the last 15 years, Paralympic athletes have used the same technology. No one has achieved these fast running times that Oscar has achieved," Herr said. "It's clearly because of Oscar, not the legs."

For those with critical thinking skills

Your opinion. It's bullshiat.

Go Oscar!


Again, their studies are flawed because they do not have a baseline for him without the prosthetic.
 
2012-07-05 08:43:14 AM

WhyteRaven74: puffy999: What do you believe the odds are that this man would be in this position had he been fully healthy?

If he had his real legs he'd have no problem making the A standard qualifying time for the Olympics.


You have nothing whatsoever to base that on.
 
2012-07-05 08:43:30 AM

doglover: Prosthetics aren't quite as good as real legs yet. But you know what? They had a shiat fit in Bejing over the times set by people in the Speedo body suits. We've always had swimwear of some sort, but these were considered near cheating.


Are prosthetics not as speedy or has there not yet been someone as speedy wearing prosthetics? I think he gets some advantage from the blades in terms of maintaining a high speed. Every 400m specialist I can think of has a 400m time that's double their 200m + 3-5 seconds. The blade runner's is double his 200m + 2.2 seconds.
 
2012-07-05 09:14:53 AM

Mr. Carpenter: Oh I see you can invent things too, go read the farking study you illiterate coont, they do not give an advantage, go farking read it. Go, please, or don't comment again.


That wasn't a study linked, that was a fluff piece with an interview that summarized the study, with an n of 1, paid for by Pistorius and the company who makes the legs, conducted by a paid advisor. The results of that study were actually inconclusive. There have been other studies that clearly show a mechanical advantage gained by using the blades. In fact, the company itself claimed that their blades offer advantages, but apparently not with this one individual.

Link
Link
Link
 
2012-07-05 09:26:21 AM
We did a case study on this guy in my bioethics class. Those blades have a disadvantage when it comes to explosive starts because they are simple passive springs and he just can't possibly get them to do what calves do. But once he's running he has an advantage with them never tiring and being in general a much more efficient means of force transfer. The traction difference is essentially irrelevant as everyone is running on an idealized surface so they were designed to have equal traction to a normal shoe.

The guy is a tremendous athlete, no question. But it's a game which has to have strict rules to be fair. He is in a situation that gives him an advantage in certain ways and therefore cannot fit properly within those rules. Paralympics, absolutely. Able-bodied Olympics, no.
 
2012-07-05 09:35:38 AM

Nickninja: We did a case study on this guy in my bioethics class. Those blades have a disadvantage when it comes to explosive starts because they are simple passive springs and he just can't possibly get them to do what calves do. But once he's running he has an advantage with them never tiring and being in general a much more efficient means of force transfer. The traction difference is essentially irrelevant as everyone is running on an idealized surface so they were designed to have equal traction to a normal shoe.

The guy is a tremendous athlete, no question. But it's a game which has to have strict rules to be fair. He is in a situation that gives him an advantage in certain ways and therefore cannot fit properly within those rules. Paralympics, absolutely. Able-bodied Olympics, no.


But the Olympics stopped being concerned about athletics and fairness long ago, it's now primarily concerned about marketing and profit for the top executives. The decision makes perfect sense within this new context.
 
2012-07-05 09:37:42 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: they can't surge him forward with each step like an ankle can with a mini jump.


No, they just propel him equally, with no fatigue, more efficiently than human calves and ankles do by 25%.

Anyone using the ankle and calf argument to support him is way off. Going on about optimal efficiency in a normal body compared this guy doesn't work at all. We've developed a mechanical device that allows him to use his thighs and gluts absolutely optimally for a specific task. Human bodies are amazing because of how versatile they are. The Olympics are a competition that were meant to show the pinnacle of human ability and endeavor as a pseudo-substitute for war. If you want to include the work of scientists playing along at home, that's fine. However, this an absolute slippery slope argument.

I hate making those, but anyone supporting this is overlooking some serious and obvious outcomes, based on thousands of years of human nature:

1) Not every countries athletes are going to get the CHOICE, if they want their families and selves to be subsidized. Smart money is on China to suddenly have a round of "accidents" in their Olympic training program.

2) How, precisely, are you defining the difference between "restoring" his normal ability and giving an advantage. Let's grant that THESE devices on THIS athlete may not have taken him from bust to star. Are you really presuming that there will NEVER be a device that's more efficient? Are you presuming that on a different athlete, even THESE may not push him above what'd normally be humanly possible? Do injured swimmers get fins? Can we develop a mini bicycle that this guy locks his stubs straight into, a fraction of the size and weight, and significantly more aerodynamic? What if an athlete injures himself during training? Why can't we "restore" them with medical technology? After all, the OFFICIAL medical use of steroids and hormones is to replace normal function of glands to heal from injury.

3) Who, precisely, gets to define the "ideal" that makes everyone "average", for restoring an athlete anyway? Can ANY athlete less than that ideal be given whatever they need to be brought up? After all, what's the difference between a genetic defect giving a malformed leg, and say, your body under producing testosterone? Can you just tweak any kid off the street that didn't win the genetic lottery with whatever drugs and equipment they need to compete? Maybe if I had slightly different hormones, and maybe like, some flippers, I too could smoke a lot of weed, win gold medals, and sell Subway. Why won't you let me "fix" my "genetic weaknesses" that limit my abilities so unfairly?



This isn't even allowing airbrushing in a swimsuit competition. This is allowing an ugly girl into Miss America by holding up a picture of a different model, and telling everyone they have to judge the picture of the other model.
 
2012-07-05 09:37:44 AM
if i ever lose my legs i'm gonna create robotic legs that can go 100 mph and leave FLAMES behind

watermarked.cutcaster.com
 
2012-07-05 09:52:05 AM

lohphat: Nickninja: We did a case study on this guy in my bioethics class. Those blades have a disadvantage when it comes to explosive starts because they are simple passive springs and he just can't possibly get them to do what calves do. But once he's running he has an advantage with them never tiring and being in general a much more efficient means of force transfer. The traction difference is essentially irrelevant as everyone is running on an idealized surface so they were designed to have equal traction to a normal shoe.

The guy is a tremendous athlete, no question. But it's a game which has to have strict rules to be fair. He is in a situation that gives him an advantage in certain ways and therefore cannot fit properly within those rules. Paralympics, absolutely. Able-bodied Olympics, no.

But the Olympics stopped being concerned about athletics and fairness long ago, it's now primarily concerned about marketing and profit for the top executives. The decision makes perfect sense within this new context.


There aren't many things left that concern fairness over profit, that's practically a given nowadays. So marketing $$$ with the veneer of inclusion is absolutely why they did it.
 
2012-07-05 09:55:37 AM
I bet if I got my feet amputated, and got some flipper-prosthetics, I could excel in swimming events. This is no different.
 
2012-07-05 10:07:37 AM
Fair/unfair isn't even really the issue to me (and the science is very much out on that, the experts keep digging deeper and it is very interesting).

The issue to me is "is this running?" And I don't think it is. I respect what the man has done, but it is some derivative of running and has no place in the Olympics.
 
2012-07-05 10:11:04 AM

SharkTrager: their studies are flawed because they do not have a baseline for him without the prosthetic.


I wonder if they've timed him with less spring-y blade-y prosthetics, something more like "natural" legs and feet. Or is that not possible?
 
2012-07-05 10:11:28 AM

Sargun: doglover: Seems like a bad precedent. Prosthetics aren't muscles. They can't get tired. They can be lengthened. They can be optimized.

Props on the guy for shootin' for the moon, but they pinched a loaf over those body suits a few years ago. Mechanical legs seem much more advantageous.

If this guy had an advantage he wouldn't have missed his shot at the real event he was participating in and only gotten in on a technicality by participating on a relay team.


He could have an advantage that took him from "clearly not good enough to make the relay team" to "good enough to barely make the relay team".
 
2012-07-05 10:12:36 AM

WhyteRaven74: puffy999: What do you believe the odds are that this man would be in this position had he been fully healthy?

If he had his real legs he'd have no problem making the A standard qualifying time for the Olympics.


He could have wrecked an ankle or knee with real legs and be unable to compete.

He doesn't have that issue with these artificial components - he can actually get a replacement if one gets damaged during training (and probably has spares). A regular athlete can't go replace his knee or ankle.

This is definitely unfair. I won't say it's an advantage, but it's unfair.
 
2012-07-05 10:12:38 AM
They let him in......great now all the other athletes will have to cut off their legs to keep up.
 
2012-07-05 10:27:17 AM

debug: Dwight_Yeast: PluckYew: You're still farking wrong,

And you're arguing out of bother sides of your mouth. If, as you claim, his prosthesis give him an "unfair advantage" why didn't he qualify? Why wasn't he faster than everyone else in the trials?

Riddle me that.

Because he's just really not all that good of a runner compared to world class athletes and the only things remotely keeping him in these races are his magic legs?


DING!
 
2012-07-05 10:54:20 AM
I think it's impossible to really prove whether his legs give him an advantage. And therefore they shouldn't be allowed.

But really it will be genetic engineering that puts an end to sports, not this stuff.
 
2012-07-05 11:01:42 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich [TotalFark] Smartest Funniest
2012-07-04 10:48:46 PM

SharkTrager: If he runs faster with the prosthetic than he would have with actual legs, which is likely the case, he has an advantage.

People have all sorts of advantages when it comes to the Olympics: they have good genes, they ...


Which is why olympic freestyle swimmers are allowed to wear www.scuba-info.com
 
2012-07-05 11:10:28 AM

Wonderduck: [i132.photobucket.com image 640x480]
Approves.


*whew* I was afraid there wouldn't be any Katawa Shoujo refs.
 
2012-07-05 11:13:03 AM
If there is one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that I can highlight Dwight_Yeast with the color I have reserved for farking morons.
 
2012-07-05 11:16:51 AM

gopher321: O-limp-ian?


/someone had to say it


I thought subby said it, although a bit more subtly.
/that's the joke?
 
2012-07-05 11:19:02 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Poor little Tink Tink


Came here for this. Leaving satisfied.
 
2012-07-05 11:24:24 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com

'I'm INVINCIBLE!!!'

'You're a loony.'
 
2012-07-05 11:58:53 AM
180 posts and not one single picture of Lee Majors???

Fark, I am disappoint.
 
2012-07-05 01:00:00 PM
Nice to see the Olympics have caved into the PC movement. How long until all the future runners just happen to all be double amputees with fake legs. What a load of crap.
 
2012-07-05 01:52:31 PM

SharkTrager: Your Average Witty Fark User: You armchair fat farks who want to cry about an unfair advantage should do some farking research before you spew your ignorance:

"We did energetic tests to see how much oxygen Oscar was consuming. We looked at his rate of fatigue; we looked at biomechanics - how much force he applies, his step length and his stride frequency," Herr, who is also a double below-the-knee amputee, told Life's Little Mysteries. In all categories, Pistorius' performance followed the same trends as other top athletes. [How Do Athletes Get 'In the Zone' of Peak Performance?]

"People argued that Oscar had an unnatural rate of fatigue," Herr said. They claimed that his artificial limbs gave him extra stamina. But it isn't true. "To measure the rate of fatigue, you take a treadmill and turn it on at a particular speed. He jumps on and starts running, and you time how long he can maintain that speed. You do this at several speeds, then plot normalized speed versus duration, and you get a curve. Many sprinting athletes follow a similar curve. We found that Oscar follows the same trend." In short, he got just as tired using his blades as everyone else did using their calves and ankles.

Furthermore, Herr explained, if Pistorius' prosthetics work better than biological limbs, they'd be giving a boost to other amputees, too. "The technology is not new: For the last 15 years, Paralympic athletes have used the same technology. No one has achieved these fast running times that Oscar has achieved," Herr said. "It's clearly because of Oscar, not the legs."

For those with critical thinking skills

Your opinion. It's bullshiat.

Go Oscar!

Again, their studies are flawed because they do not have a baseline for him without the prosthetic.


You can stay on your soapbox as long as you want, you're still going to be wrong.
 
2012-07-05 02:12:22 PM

Your Average Witty Fark User: You can stay on your soapbox as long as you want, you're still going to be wrong.


Don't you think your source is somewhat biased?
 
2012-07-05 02:22:56 PM

Your Average Witty Fark User:
You can stay on your soapbox as long as you want, you're still going to be wrong.


That doesn't make you right.
 
2012-07-05 03:12:44 PM
While there's a great "feel-good" story here, letting someone compete in the Olympics using mechanical legs does seem to violate the spirit of fair competition (much like the use of performance-enhancing drugs).
 
2012-07-05 03:14:36 PM
I remain convinced that the only way we figure out whether there is an unfair advantage or not in using these prosthetic legs is to amputate a perfectly healthy sprinter, and see if they can work their way up to pre-amputation speeds.
 
2012-07-05 03:17:45 PM

Matt Foley: I remain convinced that the only way we figure out whether there is an unfair advantage or not in using these prosthetic legs is to amputate a perfectly healthy sprinter, and see if they can work their way up to pre-amputation speeds.


Or just say "fark it all" and let people use whatever they want -- all the steroids & mechanical parts you can handle. Would be entertaining in its own way...
 
2012-07-05 04:55:09 PM
smhttp.14409.nexcesscdn.net

/approves
//wants to give him the Voight-Kampff test regardless, just in case
 
2012-07-05 05:00:59 PM
He competes in the Paralympics too?

Shouldn't he choose either Olympics or Paralympics?
 
2012-07-05 05:10:07 PM
This guy doesn;t have to deal with the most common running injuries...shinsplints, sprained ankles, achilles tendonitis, ruptured achilles..... does he even have knees or patellas?

He'll never have a Derek Redmond moment.....the crippled clearly has an advantage.
 
2012-07-05 05:16:23 PM
You can't argue that mechanical legs offer an exact and even replacement for real legs. There will be some sort of disadvantage/advantage. If you start to come up with reasoning for balancing genetic defects with artificial enhancement you start to delve into a subjective argument over just how appropriate the replacement is. You could never know for sure if that particular athlete's performance was exactly as it would have been had they not suffered from the genetic defect.

You might be able to create a very compelling case, but the subjectivity cannot be avoided and the spirit of the competition (in my opinion) is lost. It is cold, but I can't see how this logic fails short of me missing the point of these events.
 
2012-07-05 05:22:24 PM

Elemental79: You can't argue that mechanical legs offer an exact and even replacement for real legs. There will be some sort of disadvantage/advantage. If you start to come up with reasoning for balancing genetic defects with artificial enhancement you start to delve into a subjective argument over just how appropriate the replacement is. You could never know for sure if that particular athlete's performance was exactly as it would have been had they not suffered from the genetic defect.

You might be able to create a very compelling case, but the subjectivity cannot be avoided and the spirit of the competition (in my opinion) is lost. It is cold, but I can't see how this logic fails short of me missing the point of these events.


Especially since the legs are of a design that mimics the way a Cheetah runs, and not how a human runs......
 
2012-07-05 05:26:09 PM
If he ain't got feet he can't compete!
 
2012-07-05 06:53:46 PM

mjbok: Your Average Witty Fark User: You can stay on your soapbox as long as you want, you're still going to be wrong.

Don't you think your source is somewhat biased?


Oh, totally. I think the tests were rigged. I think the results were rigged.

I actually think you're a farking moron.
 
2012-07-05 07:49:28 PM

dbrunker: Wonderduck: [i132.photobucket.com image 640x480]
Approves.

*whew* I was afraid there wouldn't be any Katawa Shoujo refs.


Heck, I was surprised it took that long!
i132.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-05 08:05:26 PM

Dwight_Yeast: But we come back around to basic human anatomy, and the fact that he's at a huge disadvantage to begin with and the prosthetics are binging him up to the point that he's on par with people competing at the Olympic level.


Right now, things are a wash. Studies seem to indicate that his fake legs are somewhat better than his real legs would have been, trading early acceleration for substantially more efficient top-end speed. It's just enough to qualify him. It doesn't really break anything, since he's not likely to win or break a record, which is probably why they've let him in.

But if this were a blanket rule change rather than a one-time exception, I guarantee that 2016 would be the Cyborg Olympics, and there would be both voluntary and "voluntary" amputations to increase performance.

I'm glad he's in, but I'm also glad they seem to be treating it as a one-time thing. And more importantly, I think the crucial distinction is that he did not seek this out. He's a special case. But if the ruling stands for all athletes, people will.
 
2012-07-05 08:49:22 PM
Good for him, but I think he has a leg up on the competition.
 
2012-07-05 09:08:18 PM

expobill: bob
matt
art
cliff
ben
bill
irene
ilene
stan
phil
and igor


Claud
Rustle
John
 
2012-07-05 09:19:11 PM

WhyKnot: expobill: bob
matt
art
cliff
ben
bill
irene
ilene
stan
phil
and igor

Claud
Rustle
John


Stu
Jim
Skip
 
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