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(Christian Post)   Judge sentences defendant to Bible Study. Its like they aren't even trying to hide it anymore   (christianpost.com) divider line 329
    More: Asinine, Bibles, South Carolina, Bible studies, Sunday School, Cassandra Tolley  
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6239 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jul 2012 at 4:57 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-05 09:40:22 AM  
i48.tinypic.com
 
2012-07-05 09:42:37 AM  
Judges should be specifically prohibited from offering an alternative sentence that would by itself be unconstitutional. Just imagine a judge who's a zealot of some sort who's hell bend on gaining converts (even if in name only) in exchange for avoiding a maximum sentence that would have otherwise not been handed down?
 
2012-07-05 09:42:53 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Kibbler: Waldo Pepper: Jim_Callahan: Waldo Pepper: nah they are just tired of seeing how atheist and others are doing their best to remove all mention of God from public life. see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

but if there is no God there is no sin and that makes things like homosexuality, abortion and anything else depraved you wish to do, perfectly okay


Now you just sound like a silly, cranky old man, standing on his front lawn and glaring at teenagers. Hating "sinners" is depravity--you can look it up in the gospels if you don't believe me.

You can put the last word in now if you wish, I'm through here.
 
2012-07-05 09:43:38 AM  
Waldo Pepper:
see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

this is where a lot of religious people fail hard...you've got this wrong buddy.
I'm not a christian and I'd wager my sense of right and wrong is as good or better than most fundies I know.

see with God you have a problem where people do bad things because they think God will forgive them and after that it's ok.

at any rate, this is all just chatter, because whether you think god = morals or not isn't important to me. I don't want you pushing your convoluted understanding of the world at me period.
 
2012-07-05 09:44:04 AM  

Sabyen91: Gyrfalcon: There are more than a few people, some of them right here on Fark, who I'd like to have sentenced to study the Bible.

ALL of it.

Cruel and unusual punishment.

/Enough with the begetting!


I think we can all agree to skip most of Chronicles, what a freaking snoozefest. And all the good stuff is covered much better in Book of Kings anyway - remakes are rarely as good as the original. Aside from that, I second Gyrfalcon.
 
2012-07-05 09:46:27 AM  
Any South Carolina farkers out there, is this judge known for doing creative sentencing, the only other mention of this judge that come up on Google is that he refered a case to the State Attorney General for prosecutiral misconduct, something about a double murder and the county lawyer was taping a meeting with the defense counsel.
 
2012-07-05 09:47:55 AM  
Farker Soze:

reading through the Book of Job and then writing a summary on the Old Testament Scripture

I can do that: Yahweh is an asshole.


Seriously... The book of Job? It's almost like he's HOPING the defendant will come back with "God is a petulant asshole who will fark you over for the sake of a bar bet."

Maybe he should go with Jonathan Edwards instead:

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.
 
2012-07-05 09:50:20 AM  

Waldo Pepper: but if there is no God there is no sin and that makes things like homosexuality, abortion and anything else depraved you wish to do, perfectly okay


oh and...

whenever I see christians say this sort of thing it creeps me out...it overtly implies that the ONLY reason you don't go around killing and skullfarking everyone you see is because you fear God's wrath...farkin creepy.

can't you see that?

I want nothing to do with your ideas. If Jesus keeps you from going maniac good, use that, but leave the rest of us alone.
 
2012-07-05 09:51:12 AM  

alizeran: [i48.tinypic.com image 500x586]


"It's Adam, Bitter, Bitter and Sweet...NOT Adam and Steve!!!11"
 
2012-07-05 09:51:15 AM  

kid_icarus: Circuit Court Judge Michael Nettles of Rock Hill has included in his sentencing of Cassandra Tolley the assignment of reading through the Book of Job and then writing a summary on the Old Testament Scripture.

You know, I could almost be okay with this if he'd assigned her to study something like Proverbs or the teachings of Jesus (which for the most part contain a lot of universal, practical wisdom). I'm a little unsure what he expects her to glean from such an obscure old testament book, though, that is essentially a Jewish fable.


Well the story of Job is basically that Job got crapped on for years and years, by god, on purpose, all his property confiscated, plagued with painful boils, and his loved ones killed by the one true death panel. Yet he was still expected to toe the line. We should ALL aspire to that level of boot licking servitude.
 
2012-07-05 09:53:27 AM  

Waldo Pepper: the point is that separation of church/state was not meant to be that the church doesn't get involved with the state , if was meant that the state doesn't try to run the church.


Madison seemed to think otherwise.

Of course, while he was the main person behind the first Amendment, he was not the only one in the project. (His original version would have been incorporated to the states immediately; that instead waited for the 14th.) Several of the other Founders were less committed to the concept. And, then as now, there were differences in attitudes between the states and among the people therein.

You might also find the ~1830 Commentary by Joseph Story of some interest, particularly the bit about "cut off forever every pretense".
 
2012-07-05 09:54:10 AM  

unexplained bacon: see with God you have a problem where people do bad things because they think God will forgive them and after that it's ok.


Or doing bad things because they think God wants them to, like hating people who are gay or don't hate gays, or invading countries to convert people and save their souls from enternal damnation. Or people who claim Jesus had two natures one divine and the other secular instead of the correct view that he had a split nature you know they are pissing off God and by bringing them back in the fold we again are saving them from damnation, so the price of a little torture or a few years less on this Earth are well worth it for them.
 
2012-07-05 09:56:01 AM  

unexplained bacon: Waldo Pepper:
see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

this is where a lot of religious people fail hard...you've got this wrong buddy.
I'm not a christian and I'd wager my sense of right and wrong is as good or better than most fundies I know.

see with God you have a problem where people do bad things because they think God will forgive them and after that it's ok.

at any rate, this is all just chatter, because whether you think god = morals or not isn't important to me. I don't want you pushing your convoluted understanding of the world at me period.


of course you don't want, you feel that your sense of what is right and wrong is correct. but how do you know it is, what is it based on? is it your higher self sense of intelligence?

the entire atheist philosophy is based on "I don't want"

I don't want God telling me what I do is a sin
I don't want God to judge me
I dont' want to be accountable to anyone other than myself
I don't want have this baby so let me kill it
I don't want to just have sex with one gender as it limits my options so any hole is okay, mmmm look i'm horny and there is a sheep, I don't want you to tell me I can't hump it.
 
2012-07-05 09:56:39 AM  

Earguy: Even the article said that such a condition of sentence is only possible if the defendant agrees.

It's no different than requiring AA meetings or other "alternative" punishments.

And, believe it or not, the Bible can be viewed as a work of literature worthy of study.


Now, imagine a judge sentencing someone to read the Koran...
 
2012-07-05 09:57:08 AM  

Waldo Pepper: but if there is no God there is no sin and that makes things like homosexuality, abortion and anything else depraved you wish to do, perfectly okay


...presupposes that the existence of God uniquely consititutes basis for a non-trivial measure of "okay". Philosophically, it's neither necessary and sufficient.
 
2012-07-05 09:58:17 AM  

Waldo Pepper: mmmm look i'm horny and there is a sheep, I don't want you to tell me I can't hump it.


O_o
 
2012-07-05 10:02:30 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: Earguy: Even the article said that such a condition of sentence is only possible if the defendant agrees.

It's no different than requiring AA meetings or other "alternative" punishments.

And, believe it or not, the Bible can be viewed as a work of literature worthy of study.

Now, imagine a judge sentencing someone to read the Koran...


if it fits the crime i would understand, I stated that if someone committed a crime against muslims maybe someone who only thinks of muslims as terrorist I can see a judge saying well read this section of the koran and give me a report on it.

but remember it does sound like this was simply a suggestion to the woman and she agreed

judge: ma'am you indicated you are a Christian might I suggest you read the book of Job
woman: okay
 
2012-07-05 10:02:39 AM  

Waldo Pepper: see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.


Preach it brother!

It is MY FAITH and the WILL OF The GORD that keeps me from butt-farking banana pudding on the way to buy abortions for the turtles I'd gay-marry. And we all know how god feels about banana pudding. It's sacrilicious.
 
2012-07-05 10:05:02 AM  

Local_User: Waldo Pepper: see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

Preach it brother!

It is MY FAITH and the WILL OF The GORD that keeps me from butt-farking banana pudding on the way to buy abortions for the turtles I'd gay-marry. And we all know how god feels about banana pudding. It's sacrilicious.


bananas have butts?
 
2012-07-05 10:06:16 AM  

unexplained bacon: Waldo Pepper: but if there is no God there is no sin and that makes things like homosexuality, abortion and anything else depraved you wish to do, perfectly okay

oh and...

whenever I see christians say this sort of thing it creeps me out...it overtly implies that the ONLY reason you don't go around killing and skullfarking everyone you see is because you fear God's wrath...farkin creepy.

can't you see that?

I want nothing to do with your ideas. If Jesus keeps you from going maniac good, use that, but leave the rest of us alone.


Patton Oswalt said it best:

I unabashedly, sincerely love that we have religion because, if we didn't, we wouldn't be here right now. Being all post-modern and ironic. There'd be no civilization! If no one had been in religion, we'd be farked right now.

Because, at the dawn of man, civilization was ... the biggest and the strongest. And that's as far as we were gonna go. It was whoever was the biggest farked, killed, ate anything they wanted. That was it! Civilization was a huge psychopath with a club goin', "I'm gonna have rape fer dinner." That was it! That's as far as we were gonna go!

And then, one of my ancestors, some weakling, said, "Look, there's no way I can beat that guy. But what if I trick him into thinking that if he doesn't kill and rape people while he's down here, when he dies, there's a magic city in the clouds, and he can go up and have all the cake he wants?!"

Now, that's not a very well-formed plan, but he went and told the big psycho, and the psycho heard that, and said, "Yeah, I like cake." BOOM! There ya go! That was the beginning of civilization. Now we can work on fire and writing and agriculture. That's religion! It's the old sky cake dodge. It worked!

Things were great for awhile. But then, what was happening was, that shiat was going on all over the planet. Then we just used different desserts. They would tell 'em about sky cookies or sky pie or sky baklava. So, as each of these civilizations grew, they built ships, they'd go visit each other, and the one guy would walk off the boat and go, "Hey, did ya hear the good news about the sky baklava?" And the first guy went, "IT'S CAKE, MOTHERFARKER, YER DEAD!"

And then, oh my God, there were the Dessert Wars, it was a nightmare. They were just killin' people. It got so bad that, every now and then, some dude would show up and go, "Hey, got good news! There's cake and pie and cookies, for EVERYONE, we can all share!" And people said, "NAIL HIM TO A FARKIN' CROSS! IT IS ONLY CAKE! OH MY GOD! THE ONLY WAY SKY CAKE TASTES GOOD IS IF, UP IN THE ... SKY, THE SKY COOKIE AND SKY PIE PEOPLE CAN'T HAVE THE SKY PIE! THAT'S THE ONLY WAY SKY CAKE TASTES GOOD! I DID NOT SPEND MY LIFE NOT RAPING AND KILLING PEOPLE TO NOT GO UP IN THE SKY AND HAVE CAKE!"

So the next time you see some douchebags in front of an abortion clinic, or trying to ban a Harry Potter novel, just go, "Oh, Sky Cake. Why are you so delicious?!


The vast majority of us don't rape because we respect other people and know that it's wrong to force ourselves on another person unwillingly - not because of morality, but because it hurts someone else. There's also the fact that rape doesn't turn us on, so there's not even the desire to do it.

However, if the Bible had never been written, our good religious folk like Waldo Pepper would apparently be raping everyone in sight.
 
2012-07-05 10:08:28 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: unexplained bacon: Waldo Pepper: but if there is no God there is no sin and that makes things like homosexuality, abortion and anything else depraved you wish to do, perfectly okay

oh and...

whenever I see christians say this sort of thing it creeps me out...it overtly implies that the ONLY reason you don't go around killing and skullfarking everyone you see is because you fear God's wrath...farkin creepy.

can't you see that?

I want nothing to do with your ideas. If Jesus keeps you from going maniac good, use that, but leave the rest of us alone.

Patton Oswalt said it best:

I unabashedly, sincerely love that we have religion because, if we didn't, we wouldn't be here right now. Being all post-modern and ironic. There'd be no civilization! If no one had been in religion, we'd be farked right now.

Because, at the dawn of man, civilization was ... the biggest and the strongest. And that's as far as we were gonna go. It was whoever was the biggest farked, killed, ate anything they wanted. That was it! Civilization was a huge psychopath with a club goin', "I'm gonna have rape fer dinner." That was it! That's as far as we were gonna go!

And then, one of my ancestors, some weakling, said, "Look, there's no way I can beat that guy. But what if I trick him into thinking that if he doesn't kill and rape people while he's down here, when he dies, there's a magic city in the clouds, and he can go up and have all the cake he wants?!"

Now, that's not a very well-formed plan, but he went and told the big psycho, and the psycho heard that, and said, "Yeah, I like cake." BOOM! There ya go! That was the beginning of civilization. Now we can work on fire and writing and agriculture. That's religion! It's the old sky cake dodge. It worked!

Things were great for awhile. But then, what was happening was, that shiat was going on all over the planet. Then we just used different desserts. They would tell 'em about sky cookies or sky pie or sky baklava. So, as each of t ...


no, only bananas as I just found out they have butts
 
2012-07-05 10:09:06 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Local_User: Waldo Pepper: see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

Preach it brother!

It is MY FAITH and the WILL OF The GORD that keeps me from butt-farking banana pudding on the way to buy abortions for the turtles I'd gay-marry. And we all know how god feels about banana pudding. It's sacrilicious.

bananas have butts?


No. But they're perfectly designed to fit in someone's hand or mouth...just like a penis.

Isn't God wonderful?
 
2012-07-05 10:10:29 AM  
Waldo Pepper:

of course you don't want, you feel that your sense of what is right and wrong is correct. but how do you know it is, what is it based on? is it your higher self sense of intelligence?

not based on a book that I believe is the word of god because the book says so...that's for sure.
I don't care to explain to you where I derive my sense of right and wrong. you clearly aren't worth the time if you honestly can't see how someone might have a good moral compass absent the bible.


the entire atheist philosophy is based on "I don't want"

I don't want God telling me what I do is a sin
I don't want God to judge me
I dont' want to be accountable to anyone other than myself
I don't want have this baby so let me kill it
I don't want to just have sex with one gender as it limits my options so any hole is okay, mmmm look i'm horny and there is a sheep, I don't want you to tell me I can't hump it.



should I now tell you what the entire christian philosophy is? are we at that level of discourse where we build a strawman of each other and pound away at it? you don't know what you're talking about in the least, that much is clear.

I'm not atheist anyway, I believe the answers to questions like, where was I before I was born and where do I go after I die are unknowable. your religion is just on of many that naturally sprout up out of frustration and the inability to accept that you can not know the truth from here. faith is the shield you use to keep yourself from admitting you don't know....atheists IMO try to answer the unknowable in the same way as the religious, saying, 'there is no god' is an answer too.

and again...I'd like to point out that from your comments it's plain to see that if for a moment you thought god wasn't watching you you'd hump a sheep. you're creepy, and I'm glad you found a way to keep yourself from doing all the odd things you're clearly tempted by.
 
2012-07-05 10:10:37 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Local_User: Waldo Pepper: see without God you are free to do whatever feels good to you regardless if it is right.

Preach it brother!

It is MY FAITH and the WILL OF The GORD that keeps me from butt-farking banana pudding on the way to buy abortions for the turtles I'd gay-marry. And we all know how god feels about banana pudding. It's sacrilicious.

bananas have butts?


You've obviously never looked at a banana. Sexy, sinful banana. Some say they are proof of gods love for us, after all.

Link
 
2012-07-05 10:12:53 AM  

Waldo Pepper: rufus-t-firefly: Earguy: Even the article said that such a condition of sentence is only possible if the defendant agrees.

It's no different than requiring AA meetings or other "alternative" punishments.

And, believe it or not, the Bible can be viewed as a work of literature worthy of study.

Now, imagine a judge sentencing someone to read the Koran...

if it fits the crime i would understand, I stated that if someone committed a crime against muslims maybe someone who only thinks of muslims as terrorist I can see a judge saying well read this section of the koran and give me a report on it.

but remember it does sound like this was simply a suggestion to the woman and she agreed

judge: ma'am you indicated you are a Christian might I suggest you read the book of Job
woman: okay


Yeah, because there's no way a judge could take her refusal and give her jail time.

I would assume that this woman likes reading the Bible. Beyond the religious aspect, would this judge sentence someone to play Skyrim if the person being sentenced enjoyed video games? Because I'd like to commit a crime in his jurisdiction.
 
2012-07-05 10:14:21 AM  

Waldo Pepper: the entire atheist philosophy is based on "I don't want"


There is no "atheist philosophy". The only thing that unites atheists in any way, is that we don't believe in gods. You know how you feel about Vishnu, Shiva and Genesh, about the Greek pantheon and the Nordic Aesir and Vaenir? That's how I feel about all gods. It's not a choice I've made, it's not something I deliberately caused, it's just the way it is. I can't choose what to believe without lying to myself, and I can't pretend I believe in gods without lying to everybody else.

I don't want God telling me what I do is a sin
I don't want God to judge me
I dont' want to be accountable to anyone other than myself
I don't want have this baby so let me kill it
I don't want to just have sex with one gender as it limits my options so any hole is okay, mmmm look i'm horny and there is a sheep, I don't want you to tell me I can't hump it.


I can tell your mind is made up about those seeing the world differently from you, but anyway: My atheism is not wishful thinking. I think it would be fantastic if we lived in a world where goodness is ultimately rewarded and evil punished by a kind, just and loving god. Believing in an eternal afterlife beyond this troublesome world would make a lot of things easier to bear and being able to put my trust in the infinite wisdom of a watchful creator might make a reality of suffering easier to accept. Not to mention the feeling of being forgiven by an ultimate authority for my wrongdoings. Sounds nice, I would like that.
So no, being an atheist is not about what I want or don't want.
 
2012-07-05 10:16:53 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: Waldo Pepper: rufus-t-firefly: Earguy: Even the article said that such a condition of sentence is only possible if the defendant agrees.

It's no different than requiring AA meetings or other "alternative" punishments.

And, believe it or not, the Bible can be viewed as a work of literature worthy of study.

Now, imagine a judge sentencing someone to read the Koran...

if it fits the crime i would understand, I stated that if someone committed a crime against muslims maybe someone who only thinks of muslims as terrorist I can see a judge saying well read this section of the koran and give me a report on it.

but remember it does sound like this was simply a suggestion to the woman and she agreed

judge: ma'am you indicated you are a Christian might I suggest you read the book of Job
woman: okay

Yeah, because there's no way a judge could take her refusal and give her jail time.

I would assume that this woman likes reading the Bible. Beyond the religious aspect, would this judge sentence someone to play Skyrim if the person being sentenced enjoyed video games? Because I'd like to commit a crime in his jurisdiction.


Skyrim?!? Now *that* is DEPRAVED.

The Lord wants you to play Halo, and run into the control room without looking, so that I can come up from behind thee and smite thee most mightily from my camping position, sayeth the LORD.

STICKETH THOU THE INFIDEL. BAM! Thou are PWNED.
 
2012-07-05 10:21:19 AM  
seriously...the guy claiming the moral high ground in this thread can't think of a good reason, other than, 'God will punish you' for not farking a sheep....WTF?

the guy can't see how anyone who isn't fearful of god isn't farking sheep.

wow....someone might wanna check this guy's crawlspace.

/and this is the creepy vibe soooo many fundies give off, it's not unique to this Pepper guy
 
2012-07-05 10:23:06 AM  
Everyone! I beg you, please stop trying to convince Waldo Pepper of the errancy of his views. His belief in God is the only reason that people and animals can be around him without getting raped. It works out for us.

Back to Patton - watch from 2:27 to see Waldo Pepper's views explained with an analogy.

You could always watch the entire thing for such gems as:

"Well, because it says in the Bible - "
"OK - hold on. I am glad you like a book."

"If you like torture porn, check out the Old Testament. Any Saw fans out there?"

/GREEN LANTERN RING
//I WANT
 
2012-07-05 10:24:26 AM  

Kibbler: rufus-t-firefly: Waldo Pepper: rufus-t-firefly: Earguy: Even the article said that such a condition of sentence is only possible if the defendant agrees.

It's no different than requiring AA meetings or other "alternative" punishments.

And, believe it or not, the Bible can be viewed as a work of literature worthy of study.

Now, imagine a judge sentencing someone to read the Koran...

if it fits the crime i would understand, I stated that if someone committed a crime against muslims maybe someone who only thinks of muslims as terrorist I can see a judge saying well read this section of the koran and give me a report on it.

but remember it does sound like this was simply a suggestion to the woman and she agreed

judge: ma'am you indicated you are a Christian might I suggest you read the book of Job
woman: okay

Yeah, because there's no way a judge could take her refusal and give her jail time.

I would assume that this woman likes reading the Bible. Beyond the religious aspect, would this judge sentence someone to play Skyrim if the person being sentenced enjoyed video games? Because I'd like to commit a crime in his jurisdiction.

Skyrim?!? Now *that* is DEPRAVED.

The Lord wants you to play Halo, and run into the control room without looking, so that I can come up from behind thee and smite thee most mightily from my camping position, sayeth the LORD.

STICKETH THOU THE INFIDEL. BAM! Thou are PWNED.


I've got a Dragonbone bow and Daedric armor that says differently.
 
2012-07-05 10:30:04 AM  

unexplained bacon: ....atheists IMO try to answer the unknowable in the same way as the religious, saying, 'there is no god' is an answer too.


I'm sorry, but that looks an awful lot like a strawman to me. Speaking for myself as atheist, I say "I don't believe there are gods." Which is an honest and valid answer to the question "Do you believe in gods?"
It's not a statement of absolute knowledge.
I have never personally met an atheist who claimed the ability to prove the non-existense of Jehova or any other god defined as supernatural. If you meet someone who does, feel free to tell them from me they're idiots. Atheism doesn't exclude idiocy.
 
2012-07-05 10:40:11 AM  
Why the book of Job?

In it we see that God is nothing more than a rube who is easily conned into doing evil, despicable, things simply because some even more powerful being called "Satan" wants to play a game with him.

Of all the books in the bible this one pretty much the most "open" about how God an easily misled, arguably evil certainly weak pawn.

So why make someone read it?
 
2012-07-05 10:46:33 AM  

kid_icarus: *Shrug*, I think it's actually pretty easy, and akin to the judges making certain offenders stand outside wearing signs as a part of their judgement. The judge believes that it might drive the point home to the person more and/or reform them...in this case, you have a southern judge (very important point there) who believes this bible study penance will help reform this woman. And the funny part is...being that she's from the south as well and probably has some religious background, it's entirely possible it might. Not because the scripture has any magical power (particularly Job), but that it taps deep into her psyche.


See, I kinda think THIS.

The Sentence should be suited to the criminal. having one-size-fits-all penalties is good in the large scale (You'll do 20 years for xxx) but at the small scale, Judges are in the situation that they are trying to help people straighten out their lives. Additionally, if everyone involved here were, say ... southern baptists, who the FARK are you people to tell them that a penance (which is what a penalty is) that includes spiritual reflection isn't appropriate?
 
2012-07-05 10:59:38 AM  
Here's the take-away kids: reading and writing assignments are punishments. That's why you have to learn to read, and then do book reports in school for a decade: you're all bad kids and mandatory public education is your punishment.
 
2012-07-05 11:02:14 AM  

Dansker: unexplained bacon: ....atheists IMO try to answer the unknowable in the same way as the religious, saying, 'there is no god' is an answer too.

I'm sorry, but that looks an awful lot like a strawman to me. Speaking for myself as atheist, I say "I don't believe there are gods." Which is an honest and valid answer to the question "Do you believe in gods?"
It's not a statement of absolute knowledge.
I have never personally met an atheist who claimed the ability to prove the non-existense of Jehova or any other god defined as supernatural. If you meet someone who does, feel free to tell them from me they're idiots. Atheism doesn't exclude idiocy.


Heh. No need to apologize perhaps that was a strawman.
I guess it's the "I don't believe" part that I'd have a problem with. Whether or not god/gods exist is a question involving what is beyond the veil. I just think "I don't know" is the only honest answer to those sorts of questions. Atheists and agnostics can be hard to define exactly.
 
2012-07-05 11:15:12 AM  

Waldo Pepper: of course you don't want, you feel that your sense of what is right and wrong is correct. but how do you know it is, what is it based on? is it your higher self sense of intelligence?


Usually, some manner of philosophical principle(s), accepted intellectually and emotionally to some degree. After that, you hit Münchausen's Trilemma, and the question of what is a "basis".

I'm not sure if I've pointed you at Wikipedia's entry on posets before?

Waldo Pepper: the entire atheist philosophy is based on "I don't want"


Empirically, no. I think I've mentioned the work of Altemeyer and Hunsberger to you? If you're interested better informing your prejudices, you might care to look into their "Amazing Conversions" and "Atheists" studies.

I'll note -- the sort of Hedonist you're referring to does indeed seem to exist. I vaguely recall one of the early papers (1960s?) on unbelief indicated they were on the order of 10%; however, I don't recall the citation, nor whether it was a study of "Nones" or of religious deconverts -- both of which are different categories from Atheists proper.

You might find a few among LaVey-style Satanists, which is pretty much Ayn Rand wrapped up with some ritual elements.
 
2012-07-05 11:19:32 AM  
Sounds like borderline grounds for an appeal to have the sentence thrown out.
 
2012-07-05 11:20:20 AM  
He should read the Quran or the book of Mormon and tell the judge the Christian bible is okay with booze so he chose the no alcohol religions.
 
2012-07-05 11:20:40 AM  

unexplained bacon: Whether or not god/gods exist is a question involving what is beyond the veil. I just think "I don't know" is the only honest answer to those sorts of questions.


Indeed. Which sort of makes all theists dishonest...
 
2012-07-05 11:20:53 AM  

unexplained bacon: Whether or not god/gods exist is a question involving what is beyond the veil.


Not really, if you work from basic principles; though that in some part is based on what exactly your poetic but ambiguous reference to "the veil" means.

unexplained bacon: I just think "I don't know" is the only honest answer to those sorts of questions.


And most atheists don't claim absolute certainty; however, they also don't claim absolute ignorance.
 
2012-07-05 11:32:34 AM  

unexplained bacon: Dansker: unexplained bacon: ....atheists IMO try to answer the unknowable in the same way as the religious, saying, 'there is no god' is an answer too.

I'm sorry, but that looks an awful lot like a strawman to me. Speaking for myself as atheist, I say "I don't believe there are gods." Which is an honest and valid answer to the question "Do you believe in gods?"
It's not a statement of absolute knowledge.
I have never personally met an atheist who claimed the ability to prove the non-existense of Jehova or any other god defined as supernatural. If you meet someone who does, feel free to tell them from me they're idiots. Atheism doesn't exclude idiocy.

Heh. No need to apologize perhaps that was a strawman.
I guess it's the "I don't believe" part that I'd have a problem with.


It's no different from your :"I don't believe it's knowable", if you'll allow the paraphrasing, except that I think it's a far more honest and direct answer to the question: "Do you belive in gods?" No. I don't.
"I believe it's unknowable" meanwhile is a perfectly valid answer to the question "Do you know if there are gods?". Valid, but really just an elaborate roundabout way of saying: "No."
My answer, and the answer of practically every atheist, Christian, Muslim and Jew I've known is really the same as yours: "No, I don't know." They all pretty much agree it's a question of faith and belief, not absolute knowledge.


Whether or not god/gods exist is a question involving what is beyond the veil. I just think "I don't know" is the only honest answer to those sorts of questions.

With respect, I don't agree. While the existence and nature of gods may well be unknowable (unless a god decided to make itself knowable, I suppose. According to scripture, most gods do that from time to time. In the Old Testament, God barely shuts up. He's even described as the kind of god, who'll drop by with a couple of friends, eat your goat and yogurt and chat about his plans to destroy a major city because the people are rich, fat, lazy, arrogant assholes) your beliefs are not. So hypothetically, if someone put agun to your head and said: "Tell me, do you believe in gods?" what would you say? Difficulty: "I believe its unknowable." is an evasive non-sequitur, and the guy with the gun really hates that kind of thing, and he has a short temper.

Atheists and agnostics can be hard to define exactly.

Atheist is easy to define: Someone, who doesn't believe there are gods, for whatever reason.
Agnosticism in a religious context used to mean a subset of Christianity that believe humans aren't aren't meant to know certain things about Jehova, as opposed to the Gnostics, who claimed to possess special knowledge. On the internet today, I have come to read it as "someone who avoids questions about beliefs by saying I don't know." No offense.


disclaimer: If this comes off as more aggressive and combative than I meant it, it's just because I like arguing on the internet. Yes, I'm that kind of retard.
 
2012-07-05 11:57:29 AM  
I feel fairly confident we'll eventually discover life in the methane seas of Titan. Possibly microbial life, or at least fossils of it, on Mars.

I find this to be roughly one gazillion times more interesting than questions about god, or atheism, or agnosticism. The only answer I have on those subjects is a shrug--I don't even have words for them.
 
2012-07-05 12:04:42 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The book of Job is the best example I know of that the Bible is just a bunch of folk tales stapled together. The first half of Job is the old story of how bad things happen to good people, with the then-current theological explanation. The second half--obviously not written by the same author--is a mystical and poetic account of how God works in mysterious ways, and has NOTHING to do with the first half's bet between Satan and God. In the first part, there is a human-like and involved god, in the second, a distant and unconcerned God is so busy with everything else, man's welfare is just an afterthought.


All of that.

The discontinuity found within the Book of Job that you point out was a significant factor for me back when I initially rejected my RCC upbringing and became an atheist.

/That and the whole "cool with slavery" thing.
 
2012-07-05 12:08:58 PM  

Kibbler: I feel fairly confident we'll eventually discover life in the methane seas of Titan. Possibly microbial life, or at least fossils of it, on Mars.

I find this to be roughly one gazillion times more interesting than questions about god, or atheism, or agnosticism. The only answer I have on those subjects is a shrug--I don't even have words for them.


I agree with much of that, and I'd wish a shrug was all anybody would spare for the suggestion of gods. But those questions have significant impacts on human societies, and that probably won't change, regardless of what we discover. If you don't understand others' beliefs, you won't understand why they do the stuff they do, which is infinitely more relevant to my existense than potential life on Mars. Unless I can have pet Martian cat, my interest is purely intellectual.
And be fair: space exploration is at best tangentially related to the topic. You can't be surprised it's not at the top of everyone's agenda here.
 
2012-07-05 12:12:00 PM  

mrshowrules:
I've read my share of Grisham novels, I know how this works. Seriously though, I guess I'm trying too hard to figure out the motivation of a judge to do something so stupid.


South Carolina circuit court judge. Also a Deacon in the Baptists church.

There ya go.
 
2012-07-05 12:28:29 PM  

MmmmBacon: TV's Vinnie: Just wait till some judge imposes a brutally harsh sentence on a defendant just because they're wiccan. Oh, the ACLU won't stop fappin' once that happens.

Not likely. The ACLU isn't exactly known for picking up on Wiccan/Pagan injustices. The only ones they might get involved in would be slam-dunk guaranteed wins, and those that are extremely high profile. But when it comes to smaller cases, if it is a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Etc being discriminated against, the ACLU often will get involved. But there have been smaller cases that involved Wiccans and Pagans that the ACLU declined to assist with.

/Not saying they are anti-Pagan
//Just saying


A brief tour of the google (all of 10 seconds, even) shows me that your assertions do not bear up with reality.

ACLU Wicca
 
2012-07-05 12:33:13 PM  
The god particle was discovered in the particle collider so religions should be calling it quits soon.
 
2012-07-05 12:36:29 PM  

monoski: The god particle was discovered in the particle collider so religions should be calling it quits soon.


My sarcasm detector exploded!
I'm SOO glad I bought that thing...
 
2012-07-05 12:37:20 PM  

Dansker: Kibbler: I feel fairly confident we'll eventually discover life in the methane seas of Titan. Possibly microbial life, or at least fossils of it, on Mars.

I find this to be roughly one gazillion times more interesting than questions about god, or atheism, or agnosticism. The only answer I have on those subjects is a shrug--I don't even have words for them.

I agree with much of that, and I'd wish a shrug was all anybody would spare for the suggestion of gods. But those questions have significant impacts on human societies, and that probably won't change, regardless of what we discover. If you don't understand others' beliefs, you won't understand why they do the stuff they do, which is infinitely more relevant to my existense than potential life on Mars. Unless I can have pet Martian cat, my interest is purely intellectual.
And be fair: space exploration is at best tangentially related to the topic. You can't be surprised it's not at the top of everyone's agenda here.


I didn't say I wasn't interested in other people's beliefs. I read the entire NT within the past year, and then read the first five books of the OT. I'm a fan of history, philosophy, and the history of philosophy--the history of ideas. I've been reading Plato recently. A historical novel about the Tudor period. One of Shakespeare's plays, King John, that is one of his deepest studies of character and politics. A primer on economics (a subject entirely bound up in what other people think about things). A biography of Hitler, whose life story is one of ideas (albeit very bad ones), and what other people think of those ideas. Another one of my favorite subjects is the Byzantine era, and the incredible wars they fought over the most abstruse and impenetrable points of theological doctrine.

The topic of what other people think (and why they think it) is fascinating to me. The topic of whether god exists holds no interest to me at all. The topic of what is, or is not, an atheist or agnostic, is completely bound up today in preconceived notions, across the entire spectrum of belief or non-belief. I don't think people talk about what is an atheist or agnostic so much as what they believe other people should believe about what is, or is not, an atheist or agnostic. About on par with the hair-splitting the Byzantines did over the nature or essence of Jesus. The interest shifts from the terms themselves, to the reasons that people think the things they do about the terms.

One other thing, I can't imagine that there is any kind of curiosity other than intellectual curiosity. I understand your point that this is not a thread about life on other planets; I was making an indirect comment on what I find interesting. Now that I think about it, though, that topic is one of primary interest (what we know, and what I think about it) rather than secondary (what we think we know, and say we think we know, and why we say those things, and what I think about that).
 
2012-07-05 12:37:51 PM  
The GOP are against activist judges unless they are bible thumping activist judges, amirite?
 
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