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(The Daily Caller)   The latest solar power company to go bankrupt after burning through millions of taxpayer dollars has the balls to do it without even waiting for the required Joe Biden visit   (dailycaller.com) divider line 41
    More: Fail, Joe Biden, first solar, Weld County, house oversight committee, gold standard, U.S. Department of Energy, credit rating agencies, Abound Solar  
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1873 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Jul 2012 at 12:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-04 09:16:22 AM
This is why we can't have nice things.

Thank you President Obama for wasting more of my money. What next, a bloated and unsustainable welfare program?

Oh yeah, we already did that one.
 
2012-07-04 10:20:07 AM
According to conservatives, subsidization is only okay when China does it -or big oil.
 
2012-07-04 10:39:08 AM
Next up. Subby asking Why is China kicking our ass in renewable energy?
 
2012-07-04 10:42:45 AM

EvilEgg: Next up. Subby asking Why is China kicking our ass in renewable energy?


My link above was broken so to answer the obvious question: Link
 
2012-07-04 12:26:11 PM

BillCo: This is why we can't have nice things.

Thank you President Obama for wasting more of my money. What next, a bloated and unsustainable welfare program?

Oh yeah, we already did that one.


1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

2) This is part of your beloved system. Companies fail. People loose jobs. This is your dream of the country being run like a corporation.
 
2012-07-04 12:29:50 PM
So, no government dollars for private companies ever. Got it.
 
2012-07-04 12:33:54 PM
Are there any successful, well-managed US solar companies creating quality, profitable products? If the end game is "China wins" because of subsidies, slave labor, and environmental rape, why bother?
 
2012-07-04 12:37:57 PM

Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.


I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.
 
2012-07-04 12:45:14 PM

Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.


^THAT^
 
2012-07-04 12:55:07 PM
Is this the hopey part or the changey part?
 
2012-07-04 01:04:19 PM
The email directed the technician to retrieve "two unused" panels for "FA" [Failure Analysis], suggesting that their construction - not a hailstorm or other natural event - was to blame for their malfunction.

They're assuming that the panels must have been faulty solely due to the use of the term "failure analysis"? Or is there more to it?
 
2012-07-04 01:10:16 PM
We continue to pay the price of a Clinton Administration. Glad he sold us down the road for that sweet Chinese money.
 
2012-07-04 01:57:02 PM
Yeah! Don't you libtards understand? That $68 million over three years could have been part of the $2.4 billion given annually to five good old American companies that really need it, including British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell.

That $2.4 billion is absolutely necessary for them to maintain $138 billion in profits per year. Hell, that $68 million would have paid (but barely) for the money these good, good companies spent on lobbying alone in 2011.

How dare you moonbats interfere in the free market by giving money to anything other than companies that don't need it, especially when good conservatives are all apoplectic about the deficit! And on our nation's birthday, too, God save it!
 
2012-07-04 02:03:29 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: EvilEgg: Next up. Subby asking Why is China kicking our ass in renewable energy?

My link above was broken so to answer the obvious question: Link


If we,as a nation, had any sense; we'd be subsidizing solar and other alternative energies also. We'd be subsidizing the heck out of them. On this issue, I can't really blame the Chinese for conducting themselves in a more intelligent manner than the USA.
 
2012-07-04 03:26:04 PM
Think of all the jobs that could have been created with that money if we had only handed it over to some corporation in a tax cut so they could sit on it and not hire anybody.

OH THE HUMANITY
 
2012-07-04 05:54:43 PM

Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.


Because when China has put its competitors out of business, it controls the supplies completely and can dictate price or restrict supplies to punish competing countries. Or have you forgotten about how China has already done this for the rare earths industry?
 
2012-07-04 08:16:52 PM

RexTalionis: Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.

Because when China has put its competitors out of business, it controls the supplies completely and can dictate price or restrict supplies to punish competing countries. Or have you forgotten about how China has already done this for the rare earths industry?


Well, if that happens, outright piracy is still an option. It's not like we have to dig solar panels out of the ground, like rare earths.
 
2012-07-04 08:19:03 PM

Hot Carl To Go: I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China


Who says cheap or are you not familiar with a Monopolies effect on prices?
 
2012-07-04 08:34:36 PM
I personally only count direct fund transfers as subsidies.

Tax deductions, credits, and exemptions do not rise to subsidizing in my eyes because it is revenue that the government doesn't receive

(ok they do receive the credits, which are then refunded at the time of filing, but that is a net 0 anyhow...though technically its a 0% interest loan until the date of filing at which point it "matures".)

Most of these so-called subsidies are no worse than you getting your precious income tax cheque back in the mail each year. Perhaps that ought to stop as well, y'know the government subsidizing your life.

Bonus time: Those deductions that the oil companies get like the depletion % one are used by many industrial/resource extraction companies in order to defray investment costs. This is to promote industry and remove a barrier to competition. The oil specific one is simply for regulatory reasons and that the depletion % may differ when talking about gold, iron, copper, zinc, salt instead of oil.

rationally speaking we want to encourage the safe and effective extraction of natural resources for our benefit. This does not take money from Joe the Taxpayer and give to Steve the Capital Investment Banker, or Alan the Industrialist. *all names used above are simply made up for Joe the Plumber reasons*

/slashy for good measure
 
2012-07-04 08:39:43 PM

xant: Well, if that happens, outright piracy is still an option. It's not like we have to dig solar panels out of the ground, like rare earths.


There's a major logical problem with this assertion. I'll leave it for you to figure out as an intellectual exercise.
 
2012-07-04 11:41:17 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: EvilEgg: Next up. Subby asking Why is China kicking our ass in renewable energy?

My link above was broken so to answer the obvious question: Link


Because they have an economy where they don't actually have to have a successful business model?
 
2012-07-05 12:00:12 AM

Darth_Lukecash: 2) This is part of your beloved system. Companies fail. People loose jobs. This is your dream of the country being run like a corporation.


Corporations throw money at pointless ventures that have no hope of being profitable in order to buy votes?
 
2012-07-05 12:38:59 AM

Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.


Dude, they aren't doing any R and D. They are making shiat panels using several year old technology with no quality control. But they are subsidizing them to the point that they can sell them for ninety cents a watt which is impossible to compete with. It is also impossible for them to continue this long term, but they are just trying to kick other manufacturers while they are down and see if they can corner the market before they run out of subsidy money. Which they probably will not be able to successfully do, but it is going to be close and a lot of companies are going to go out of business. I find it sad that the Chinese can see that solar is going to be lucrative enough that it is worth spending billions of dollars to corner the market while American conservatives whine about the fact that we so much as allow solar companies to exist.
 
2012-07-05 01:43:40 AM
Damn ethanol subsidies solar plants.

/Those damn lieberuls strike again, right neo-cons?
 
2012-07-05 07:03:59 AM

TDBoedy: (ok they do receive the credits, which are then refunded at the time of filing, but that is a net 0 anyhow...though technically its a 0% interest loan until the date of filing at which point it "matures".)


Opportunity cost is still cost.
 
2012-07-05 08:39:31 AM
The development of the V-22 Osprey cost taxpayers well more than thirty times both Solyndra's and Abound's guarantees combined and killed 30 people.

Exxon Mobil uses corporate tax loopholes to dodge enough in taxes in a typical year to pay for both of their guarantees twice.

They lost combined about what it cost us to spend four days fighting the Iraq war (on average over 10 years based on the CBO estimate of the total cost).

But, yea, solar energy is why we can't have nice things. Like smog-choked skies, giant scars in national forests, and pollutant-tinged drinking water.
 
2012-07-05 08:59:41 AM
Nemo's Brother: We continue to pay the price of a Clinton Administration. Glad he sold us down the road for that sweet Chinese money.

Yes indeed, that Bill Clinton fellow farked this country all right. Thank Christ for George W. Bush and his team of geniuses that came along just in time, or we'd really be in the soup.
 
2012-07-05 09:28:39 AM
TDBoedy: I personally only count direct fund transfers as subsidies....Tax deductions, credits, and exemptions do not rise to subsidizing in my eyes because it is revenue that the government doesn't receive

So as long as an industry doesn't recieve a physical check in the mail from the government, it's not a subsidy? General Electric earning $5 billion in profits in America in 2010 and not paying a dime in taxes, but actually receiving another $3 billion in government largesse isn't a subsidy? I'm sure big oil and the agri-corporations who lobby for and consistently receive billions of dollars in "tax deductions, credits, and exemptions" appreciate the naivite of your "Well, shucks, at least we didn't send them no money" point of view.
 
2012-07-05 11:11:02 AM

BillCo: This is why we can't have nice things.

Thank you President Obama for wasting more of my money. What next, a bloated and unsustainable welfare program?

Oh yeah, we already did that one.


How many billions have we spent subsidizing the oil industry, including indirect costs of trying to stabilize the middle east?

This is a drop in the bucket compared to that.
 
2012-07-05 11:41:55 AM

SharkTrager: Because People in power are Stupid: EvilEgg: Next up. Subby asking Why is China kicking our ass in renewable energy?

My link above was broken so to answer the obvious question: Link

Because they have an economy where they don't actually have to have a successful business model?


Research and Development is extremely expensive and risky. But I don't have to tell anyone on fark that because everyone here is an expert on business operations.
 
2012-07-05 11:48:02 AM

BillCo: This is why we can't have nice things.

Thank you President Obama for wasting more of my money. What next, a bloated and unsustainable welfare program?

Oh yeah, we already did that one.


You know, I was going to formulate a reply about the need for additional sources of power generation since we are near maxed out on our current solutions. But I am just going to say this:

BillCo, you are still an idiot. Why do you even bother posting? You constantly reinforce that you are a dimwit who cannot grasp simple concepts. I am surprised you were even able to pickup written language you farking moron.
 
2012-07-05 12:33:48 PM

Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.


More likely scenario:

Oil crunch occurs when Saudi Arabia finally admits it's been overestimating its oil reserves intentionally to stall alternative energy production, but can't hide it anymore since there's almost no oil left. China is prepared for it by having the most efficient solar panels in the world, stops selling them to anyone immediately and keeps them entirely for themselves. US economy crashes nearly overnight because we are not prepared at all, and alternative energy production means are now completely beyond our capability.


Hooray capitalism!
 
2012-07-05 12:34:55 PM
But don't worry folks, short term profits are always more important than long-term viability. Always.

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
 
2012-07-05 01:01:10 PM

MithrandirBooga: Oil crunch occurs when Saudi Arabia finally admits it's been overestimating its oil reserves intentionally to stall alternative energy production, but can't hide it anymore since there's almost no oil left. China is prepared for it by having the most efficient solar panels in the world, stops selling them to anyone immediately and keeps them entirely for themselves. US economy crashes nearly overnight because we are not prepared at all, and alternative energy production means are now completely beyond our capability.


LOL
 
2012-07-05 03:50:35 PM

Buzzerguy: Yeah! Don't you libtards understand? That $68 million over three years could have been part of the $2.4 billion given annually to five good old American companies that really need it, including British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell.

That $2.4 billion is absolutely necessary for them to maintain $138 billion in profits per year. Hell, that $68 million would have paid (but barely) for the money these good, good companies spent on lobbying alone in 2011.

How dare you moonbats interfere in the free market by giving money to anything other than companies that don't need it, especially when good conservatives are all apoplectic about the deficit! And on our nation's birthday, too, God save it!


Pardon me, but your Slate/Mother Jones talking points are wrong.

We do not subsidize big oil. We dont bail out big oil or give them welfare. Big oil doesn't exist off the public teat. Yes, big oil turns massive profits yet the biggest profiteer off oil is the US government in the form of gas/diesel taxes.

Well what then, do you ask, are all of these oil subsidies we keep hearing about? Well they are actually losses, and operating expenditure that every business gets to deduct. If Shell spends $1m to explore a shale in the gulf and it turns up dry, they are allowed to write that off as a loss just as a McDonalds franchise owner who owns 20 stores gets to write off the losses against a store that failed.
In this thing we call business, a company has earnings, then pays its liabilities and is assessed a tax on their total profit.

The progressive mindset is that anything an individual or company makes is first property of the state, then per the tax rate, the citizen or company is allowed to keep some of it. They think that allowing an oil company to reduce its tax liability by writing off losses against profits is "welfare" when it isn't.
 
2012-07-05 04:21:00 PM
o5iiawah: We do not subsidize big oil.

This is a dead thread, but I wanted to point out that if you really believe that the U.S. government doesn't subsidize big oil, your views are largely ignorable.
 
2012-07-05 04:52:38 PM

o5iiawah: We do not subsidize big oil.


You are a special kind of derp.

inapcache.boston.com
 
2012-07-05 05:36:32 PM

stolibro: Hot Carl To Go: Darth_Lukecash:

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

I fail to see the problem with this. Let them foot the bill for R&D. We can then either buy artificially cheap high quality solar panels from China or hire away their top talent and produce our own if the Chinese gov't quits subsidizing. Why remain competitive when we can eat the fruits of their labor, so to speak? China actually invented that plan... we can do it without the outright piracy.

^THAT^


^ DOUBLE THAT ^
 
2012-07-06 12:16:50 AM

Darth_Lukecash: BillCo: This is why we can't have nice things.

Thank you President Obama for wasting more of my money. What next, a bloated and unsustainable welfare program?

Oh yeah, we already did that one.

1)china has been illegally subsidizing it's solar power companies. US must do so to remain competitive.

2) This is part of your beloved system. Companies fail. People loose jobs. This is your dream of the country being run like a corporation.


1) If China is dumb enough to subsidize their solar industry and sell its output to us below cost, why not let them?
2) This isn't anything like a corporation, at least not one in a capitalist system. There, a company borrows money from private lenders, and if it goes bust, the company and the lenders are the ones stuck with the loss, not taxpayers. Government bureaucrats have no business being venture capitalists since a) they have no personal stake in the outcome and b) if they were any good at it, they'd be doing it in the real world, not in some government office cubicle where they'll never get fired for screwing up and losing a ton of money.
 
2012-07-06 02:26:45 AM

Barricaded Gunman: TDBoedy: I personally only count direct fund transfers as subsidies....Tax deductions, credits, and exemptions do not rise to subsidizing in my eyes because it is revenue that the government doesn't receive

So as long as an industry doesn't recieve a physical check in the mail from the government, it's not a subsidy? General Electric earning $5 billion in profits in America in 2010 and not paying a dime in taxes, but actually receiving another $3 billion in government largesse isn't a subsidy? I'm sure big oil and the agri-corporations who lobby for and consistently receive billions of dollars in "tax deductions, credits, and exemptions" appreciate the naivite of your "Well, shucks, at least we didn't send them no money" point of view.


Of course I I think they should have paid taxes on their profits. I never said anything different. In-fact the tax code is far too complex and allows for stupid stuff like you are showing above.

Allowing deductions and the like for capital investments/expenses is a necessary and proper activity of the tax code. However, ultimately the tax code is designed to generate revenue. It has failed to do so because those who would pay taxes have written the code to exempt themselves.

The problem isn't the idea, rather it is the corruption
 
2012-07-06 07:44:29 AM

Kazrath: BillCo, you are still an idiot. Why do you even bother posting? You constantly reinforce that you are a dimwit who cannot grasp simple concepts. I am surprised you were even able to pickup written language you farking moron.


www.majhost.com
 
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