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(Jezebel)   "Women's Ten Biggest Complaints About Men's Ten Biggest Complaints About Women." Or, how to create an internet flame war the likes of which God has never seen   (jezebel.com) divider line 618
    More: Interesting, flame wars, gender stereotypes, eHarmony, complaints  
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19210 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jul 2012 at 10:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-03 01:53:49 PM

KrispyKritter: susansto-helit: I have to admit that #4 really pisses me off. I cannot control when I start crying, so don't accuse me of using it as a weapon when I do.

because you're not like every other woman who will leap grand obstacles to make her man show emotion then rip your man apart in front of MIL and friends because he shared. few men ever displayed emotion in front of a woman without fully regretting having done so. because deep down inside you are all cold vicious biatches that are never happy. seeing where america stands today we can understand why you had such limited privileges in the past. too bad that changed.


I'm sorry you went through that. For what it's worth, I had an ex-boyfriend mock me, in front of his friends, for getting upset. I was told to "stop being such a typical girl." It's wrong when anyone does that.

As far as the privileges thing, I'd imagine that, for centuries, when all the influence that women had at their disposal was emotional manipulation, these things were probably far worse.
 
2012-07-03 01:54:15 PM

Lando Lincoln: hubiestubert: miss diminutive: Christian Bale: This article just shows how men aren't allowed to have ANY complaints about women, otherwise you are a misogynist, and wrong. Only women can complain about men -- all men, in one big generalization -- and expect to be have their complaints not just taken seriously, but acknowledged as fact. And if you don't acknowledge those complaints? You're a misogynist, and wrong.

Yes.

And?

Luckily, I've been married before. I'm used to being wrong 100% of the time, and soldiering on.

That's why I'm not married anymore. I'd rather be right than married.


1000000000000x ^^^^THIS^^^^
 
2012-07-03 01:54:16 PM

Yeah, we should bite on this. Apologies to all women for writing this, there's a lot of generalization down below, but in stereotypes there are grains of truth, and lots of fun flamewars.

1) Yeah, great point! You're so right-no one in a serious relationship should ever have to compromise or change anything about themselves out of respect for their partner. Except for women, of course, who need to change the ten things in this list IMMEDIATELY or risk never being on the receiving end of Grant Langston, Sr Director, Content's directed content ever again.


This is typical woman argument. The original point being made was "We're not projects you can fix, stop trying," and this manipulative crybaby is turning it into an issue about compromise because, well, who could argue that relationships are about compromise right? When you're a woman, and you just lost an argument, you have to re-frame the issue. This is political word-changing 101.

She presumes that all "fixes" she feels you need are in fact perfectly justified "compromises" that you agreed to upon starting a relationship. This is semantic manipulation worthy of a female with a degree in liberal arts from a decent college. Your parents get leeway to force you to change behavior when you're a child because they're trying to raise you. Once you turn 18, compromise is not something you owe to anyone. Compromise is something you grant out of love in a relationship to preserve the peace. Fixing your boyfriend is when you tell him which friends he can and cannot have, rather than learning to appreciate his friends for what they are. Fixing your boyfriend is telling him how he must spend his free time. Fixing your boyfriend is getting on his case for a single comment he made because it wasn't something you might say. Don't do these things Ladies. The compromise in a relationship is about accepting who the person you got involved with is, not imposing all the tweaks you want until they conform to what you expected.

2) SO SPECIFIC. IT'S ALL SO SPECIFIC. I'M SORRY YOU BOUGHT THAT UNGRATEFUL biatch SOME TIRES, OKAY? I'm willing to accept that it's mostly my fault she didn't like your tires, but how's about we call it bygones at this point?


The point is valid though. I've never watched the notebook, but having gotten a summary from a girl last night and watching a bit of it, it's absolutely no surprise to me why women set themselves up for disappointment w.r.t romance. If Hollywood is to be believed, women seem to want to view themselves as the ultimate charitable beings on the planet. Again, just generalizing from stupid movies, but they seem to want to view themselves as being wealthy privileged women who take pity on attractive, but disadvantaged white men (jokes in jokes here fellas), and grant them love and compassion against all odds and opposition from the "bad people" who thought they knew better. Basically female romance is portrayed as some kind of longshot gamble on what this super-woman amazingly perceives a winner but everyone else warns them against.

NOT PICTURED: Actual compromise with the man after marrying him; meaning accepting his lower-class friends for what they are, putting up with his idea of a good way to spend free time, etc..etc.. It's like the imagination for women stops just before you consider how to live with someone, because if your social skills manage to snag you the "perfect" husband, everything will just work itself out. lol

3) This is a great one. Instead of planning ahead for the future, it's way sexier to live your life like a brine shrimp or mayfly-as far as you know, you're gonna die in the next 30 minutes so you should probably fark real quick and then lay your eggs in some silt. For instance, this month-just to live in the now and be spontaneous-I spent my rent money on this disapproving fiberglass lion! I'm homeless now, but it's the caliente kind of homeless!


This is indeed a great one. It's great because some women seem to value spontaneity and the beauty of randomly finding the right guy, but they also want to plan out the whole damn sequence of events of their life. The contradiction is in that behavior, so if you behave that way, you're creating a contradiction so obvious that men laugh at you. Seriously, we do. That behavior is STUPID.

Here's a tip ladies, Life is random, be adaptable. Learn as much as you can, learn a trade, find some way to make yourself truly valuable to industry for the bad times. Don't plan on having a mansion by the ocean by retirement, your chances of ending up where you planned on being are basically nil. Consider that humans have been nomads for most of their existence on this planet. Consider we still have large populations of social nomadic cultures. Do you think that these people plan their lives more than a season or two out? Do they starve and die? Relax your control on what your life is "supposed" to be, and maybe you'll enjoy it more. Just a thought.

4) God, women, it's so farking annoying and manipulative when you start crying all over the place, when all we were trying to do was say a bunch of stuff that makes you cry.


Oh, I agree, it was unfair to accuse women of using their emotions as a weapon. Most of them don't. It is more appropriate to say they use the display of emotions as a weapon. You see, in the developed world, fathers do stupid things to their daughters, namely, they treat them differently than their male siblings. When boys and girls are young, they both mostly cry equally. As they get older tho, boys are yelled at when this happens, and sometimes punished until they *STOP* crying. But as Girls get older they are essentially caved in to. So yes, if you're a woman, chances are HIGHLY LIKELY that you were in some way taught by your dad that if you showed enough lack of control of your emotion, he would simply give you what you wanted.

Not all fathers are this stupid, so not all women are like this. The women that are not like this are actually highly prized by the smart guys out there. So many of you ladies still act like you can get your way when you cry, it's created a valid stereotype. If you don't like this stereotype, please tell your husband to stop treating his daughters like they're fragile china dolls and instead teach them that life *IS* tough. So mostly, we forgive you for having this horrible horrible trait as an adult, but that doesn't mean that it's ok.

5)Is there a Sr Sr Director of Content who could have directed Grant toward the fact that he's complaining about how women complain too much in an article called "Men's Ten Biggest Complaints About Women"?


Actually there is, but he was busy being nagged by his wife.

6) Grant Langston, I am so mad at you for dragging me into this "men do this/women do this" hacky bullshiat barbecue, but MEN DO THIS WAY MORE THAN WOMEN DO THIS. Get your gender stereotypes straight-men are aloof, women are needy. Duh. Haven't you ever seen a farking romantic comedy? This is a classic dude move-to pretend like you don't like someone so that they'll chase you but won't accidentally like you too much so that you can control the situation or whatever. (And uuuuuuuuuuugh, saying "classic dude move" goes against everything I stand for.) Also, I thought you were mad at us for not giving you enough time in your "man cave"! Do you want us to pay attention to you or do you want us to leave you alone? Plz respond ASAP because I really want this to work out between us.


I have no problem with how coy you are, you don't need to write paragraphs like that to prove it to me. Men aren't aloof, they're quiet. Men aren't coy, they just don't have anything to say, and no reason to have a huge conversation. All those times you're confused because some guy isn't saying much, he's probably just staring at your boobs. His visual cortex is going crazy, not his language center. He's not pretending he doesn't like you. He probably likes you just fine because men have no standards. We would marry realdolls if it were acceptable and they could be programmed to clean house.

7 and 8 had responses that aren't worth responding to.

9)So...when you say "I could write a novel on this one"...are you thinking like magical realism? Is this a weird stream-of-consciousness surrealist thought experiment where dolphins grow on trees and ennui gets elected president? Because so far it's working. I am not following you at all.


thedoghousediaries.com
^^ Don't be that way.

10)Just to sum up: The 10th thing that men hate most about women is Grant Langston, Sr Director, Content's one friend's biatchy girlfriend this one time. 'Kay. Curse you, Jennifer!!!

So, I'm pretty sure that this isn't "Men's Ten Biggest Complaints About Women"-it's "Man's Ten Biggest Complaints About Women." I don't know exactly what Mrs. Sr Director, Content did to provoke this level of disgruntlementation (although I do know it involved George Clooney, unsolicited tire replacement, golf-shaming, and who should pay for the burritos).But really, the main problem with most of these complaints isn't that they're unreasonable-it's that they're the kind of shiatty things that all people do in relationships sometimes. There are no Women Things and Man Things-there are just People Things.

And if your conclusion is that women are people...then I guess this is like the most feminist article of all time. Woo hoo! Grant Langston, Sr Director of GIRL POWER!


Oh, well, true. These are just people on people things. I've just never seen a guy in a relationship cry to affect an argument. I've never seen a guy complain about his woman's choice of free time activity. I've never seen a guy do anything other than a very straightforward search for a woman who attracts them and is willing to put up with his shiat.

Sadly, many women don't want to put up with guy stuff, they just want their planned-out fantasy life full of days of incremental changes to make their man match their childish expectations.
 
2012-07-03 01:56:37 PM

This text is now purple: susansto-helit: I cannot control when I start crying, so don't accuse me of using it as a weapon when I do.

Are you an adult? If so, you can control it.


I am female and cry at the stupidest things (like the description of a baby being born? or, you know, during every movie) but I agree that you CAN CONTROL when you cry. So I let tears flow in private but not in public. If someone close to you just died- ok you might not be able to hold back.

Also- if you can't control it then you probably need to practice.. kind of similar to controlling your anger- take some deep breaths, think about something else, do some exercise, save your tears for private time if you really need to cry.

I do believe that you can slowly over time control your feelings (for example, you can not get upset and cry about little things like if your boyfriend forgot that tuesday was your 3 week anniversary) and that you should. Not just for people around you who are going to feel awful that you are so upset, but just to lower your stress level in general.

I don't think there are any problems that only men or only women have. I know male and female jerks, cry babies, drama queens, compulsive liars, and genuinely nice people of both sexes. Gender has little to do with it.
 
2012-07-03 01:57:49 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: towatchoverme: Oh. It's THIS THREAD ... about THIS THREAD ... again.

You don't like it, leave.


home.roadrunner.com
 
2012-07-03 01:58:37 PM
It's been fun, ladies and gents, but now it is lunch time. Thanks for the conversation. :)
 
2012-07-03 02:01:54 PM

rustypouch: .
Why do you blame the victim?


heh.

Sorry, for whatever reason, FARK is dragging and being really weird from work today and decided it was going to POST NOW..

Here is the rest ofwhat I wanted to say to original poster:


What I am trying to say is this woman is not "your best friend" or any kind of friend. Friends don't fight on a nearly constant basis. They are able to talk things out. They don't stir shiat up while you are at work. They don't drive you freakin batty. Just the fact that you've already been down "separation road" signals impending disaster as you waited for her to make up her mind on divorce. Screw that. She refuses to work on a REAL relationship, and plays the divorce card, farkin take it. It is not worth living your life in fear (ok not FEAR fear, but the abject knowledge that once again you are gonna fight about something) and loneliness and frustration. Seriously, be single. After two failed marriages and the death of my last significant other, (who was just damn near perfect and far too good for the likes of me anyway), I found that there is a large shortage of men my age that are single for acceptable reasons. The vast majority of single men fall into my "single for a damn good reason" category. And that's ok.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it sounds like you're making choices based on a very limited number of traits in your women, and it's just not working out well. Just like men, you aren't going to change us. What you see is what you get, etc. If you end up being single, and I really hope you don't, but if you do, step back and BREATHE. It's ok to be single. I'd rather be single and pretty content than in a relationship and completely miserable.

Just my $0.02, YMMV, always consult your doctor before making any drastic changes to your diet and excersize plan, etc.
 
2012-07-03 02:02:04 PM

susansto-helit: It's been fun, ladies and gents, but now it is lunch time. Thanks for the conversation. :)


See ... now that's classy. Plus, you like Pratchett.

Fav'd.
 
2012-07-03 02:02:49 PM

YixilTesiphon: WhippingBoy: Let her "win" everything else.

This...I don't understand why you people argue with your wives about some of this crap. Takes two to tango.


I think this is due in part to these stupid "battle of the gender" articles perpetuated by both men and women. This is also reinforced by certain types of feminists and "Mens Rights Advocates". In essence, we're constantly bombarded with the message that the status-quo is for men and women to be at "war" with each other, and compromise (even on insignificant points) is seen as "losing" the war.

Also, people are human. If I come home after a particularly trying day and find the garbage overflowing and my wife watching TV, the little boy inside me cries "it's not fair" (with respect to having to take out the garbage); usually I can step back and put things into perspective, but on particularly rough days I tend to whine and a fight then ensues.
 
2012-07-03 02:04:05 PM
The author came off as an asshole. Way too combative.

For instance, the one about crying (#4). If I were ever in a heated debate with a friend of mine and he broke down crying, I would probably lose a lot respect for him and the conversation would immediately end.

The author does no appear to allow for the input of others. I have a feeling she hears most of those complaints a lot and thinks all men say them to all women. Not true.
 
2012-07-03 02:04:59 PM

RembrandtQEinstein: Advice for women, don't talk to men about the following subjects:

1. your friends (unless they are hot) or their children
2. your relatives (unless they are rich and could potentially give us lewt when the die) or their children
3. your job/coworkers (unless someone is harassing you and needs a cockpunch)
4. your problems (unless you want us to come up with a solution, if you "just want to talk about it" you have a phone with your mother or a girlfriend on speed dial)

And don't talk about anything under the following circumstances

1. when we are watching a screen (tv, sports, computer, video games)
2. when we are fixing things
3. when we are reading
4. when our eyes are closed

The only acceptable action while we are engaging in these activities is to quietly leave a cold beer, with opener if it is a bottle, somewhere in our peripheral vision. But not somewhere we can knock it over by turning around.

If you care about the happiness of your man you will follow these rules, if you don't then you will get offended by this list.


My boyfriend and I have an understanding that I can talk to him about DUMB GIRLY things or biatch about work and he can 'tune out'. Likewise, he can talk to me about cars, sports, or some of his hobbies and I can tune out. As a female, I fully acknowledge that I sometimes just have an urge to talk and it actually doesn't matter if anyone is really listening. However, we also take time to talk about things we both actually care about like fishing, traveling, people we both know, current events, our house, etc.
 
2012-07-03 02:05:39 PM

Phinn: Lando Lincoln: Phinn: Try making plans to go somewhere without consulting her. Does the captain of a Navy ship ask his lieutenant where to point the ship? No, he makes decisions, for the benefit of everyone, and expects them to be followed. He may ask for input, but in doing so always communicates that the choice is his.

Military metaphors always work great when talking about interacting with women.

So says the man who would rather than be right than happy.

You don't have to rub the woman's nose in it. A leader who is confident and secure in his authority doesn't need to constantly remind his subordinates he's in charge. He doesn't talk about being in charge, because he doesn't need to; he just lives it. In fact, talking about it is a sign that your authority is weak or threatened. You may think you're asserting your authority when you discuss it, but you are actually showing that you don't have it.

So, you don't tell a women you're in charge, and you certainly don't tell her you're the captain and she's the first mate. You just act like it. But keep it all inside.


Just keep it inside
Learn how to hide your feelings......

Real men take their relationship advice from Melissa Manchester.
 
2012-07-03 02:06:39 PM
fortheloveofgod: !

And the second half of this is - when I get home from work she wants me to recap my entire day to her. The last thing that I want to do after I get home from work is to re-live that god awful day! As soon as I walk in the door I want to forget about work entirely.



I just print out all source code I generate.
Her: How did your day go?
Me: <dump>
 
2012-07-03 02:07:31 PM

spidermilk: As a female, I fully acknowledge that I sometimes just have an urge to talk and it actually doesn't matter if anyone is really listening.


That's so interesting. Tell us more about that.

*puts on headphones*
 
2012-07-03 02:07:33 PM

She comes in colors everywhere: Do not play the game.


It's not a game! A woman's attraction to you (or lack thereof) is very real (to her).

Her attraction rises and falls depending on the traits you exhibit.

Most guys make the mistake of attempting to relate to women as though women are just like men, communicate just like men, and want the same things (in the same priority) as men.

They don't.

Learning how to relate to women successfully is not "playing a game." It's more like learning how to speak a new language. (Only, it's a language where the words don't ever mean what they purport to mean.)

Relating to women badly leads to sexual relationships filled with confusion, frustration, conflict, anger and pain.

Knowing what makes women happy (which is very different from what they SAY makes them happy) is the path that leads to increased levels of clarity, fulfillment, peace, fun and pleasure.
 
2012-07-03 02:11:51 PM

trivial use of my dark powers: Just keep it inside
Learn how to hide your feelings......

Real men take their relationship advice from Melissa Manchester.


More like, "Men will get better results through action, not words."
 
2012-07-03 02:13:30 PM

mcwehrle: rustypouch: .
Why do you blame the victim?

heh.

Sorry, for whatever reason, FARK is dragging and being really weird from work today and decided it was going to POST NOW..

Here is the rest ofwhat I wanted to say to original poster:


What I am trying to say is this woman is not "your best friend" or any kind of friend. Friends don't fight on a nearly constant basis. They are able to talk things out. They don't stir shiat up while you are at work. They don't drive you freakin batty. Just the fact that you've already been down "separation road" signals impending disaster as you waited for her to make up her mind on divorce. Screw that. She refuses to work on a REAL relationship, and plays the divorce card, farkin take it. It is not worth living your life in fear (ok not FEAR fear, but the abject knowledge that once again you are gonna fight about something) and loneliness and frustration. Seriously, be single. After two failed marriages and the death of my last significant other, (who was just damn near perfect and far too good for the likes of me anyway), I found that there is a large shortage of men my age that are single for acceptable reasons. The vast majority of single men fall into my "single for a damn good reason" category. And that's ok.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it sounds like you're making choices based on a very limited number of traits in your women, and it's just not working out well. Just like men, you aren't going to change us. What you see is what you get, etc. If you end up being single, and I really hope you don't, but if you do, step back and BREATHE. It's ok to be single. I'd rather be single and pretty content than in a relationship and completely miserable.

Just my $0.02, YMMV, always consult your doctor before making any drastic changes to your diet and excersize plan, etc.


Few things.

1) What I saw when we got married was COMPLETELY different from what I ended up with now. Even she has admitted this on numerous occasions, yet has no clue(so she says) why that is. I have asked her point blank if I am doing anything to contribute, and am constantly told "no, it's all me." Which is fairly believable when you factor in a lot of things that have happened to her in the past(I, quite literally, am the first good man to ever enter her life.)

2) She's my best friend in a sense of I love spending time with her, we have a lot in common, and get along very well. There are just a handful of very hot button issues that spiral out of control from simple disagreements to WW3. These precipitated previous pullings of the "divorce card."

3) She has seen somebody, as have I. I was diagnosed with clinical depression, she was diagnosed as a poster child for anxiety. Problem: We cannot find a single psychiatrist who is willing to prescribe medication that actually works for her. Doctors in my area, and we have tried FIVE different docs, seem to be completely gunshy when it comes to prescribing medication that can help her control her anxiety. Instead giving her long term anti-depressants and hoping for the best. Yet when it comes to some form of medication for controlling anxiety attacks when they occur, they flat out refuse to prescribe anything despite 0 history of drug addiction(we smoke pot occasionally, and maybe indulge in a 3 -5 nights a year of MDMA indulgence).

So my question is not so much why should I get a divorce, the reasons are spelled out in front of me. However, I don't treat my marriage as a game. I take the whole commitment very seriously, and will only entertain divorce as a plausible option when we have exhausted everything else. As a manner of working towards a common goal of not only getting along better, but improving my relationship, I am looking for advice on how to deal with things that confuse the hell out of me.

Not someone telling me to just cut and run. That's not how I was raised to handle difficult situations. Regardless of how they affect me.
 
2012-07-03 02:14:37 PM

WhippingBoy: Also, people are human. If I come home after a particularly trying day and find the garbage overflowing and my wife watching TV, the little boy inside me cries "it's not fair" (with respect to having to take out the garbage); usually I can step back and put things into perspective, but on particularly rough days I tend to whine and a fight then ensues.


Oh, yeah. Everybody gets in stupid arguments. It's the "having the same argument over and over" thing I don't get.
 
2012-07-03 02:14:53 PM

fortheloveofgod: WhippingBoy: Savage Bacon: Woah! Gotta love the use of the ol' CAPS LOCK to get a point across. Really helps your argument, lady. I can feel your exasperation through your written word... Such angst!

One of the first thing I learned about relationships and the difference between men and women had to do with sympathizing vs. problem-solving. As a man, if I start talking to my male friends about an issue I'm having, it's pretty much advice solicitation on my part. If my gf comes to me with an issue, it's usually just to vent, so I let her vent. If she actually needs any advice, I wait for her to ask for it, because apparently giving advice really gets in the way of a good venting session.

Yep. Took me 10 years to learn this. Confused the hell out of me. My wife would come to me, complaining about some relatively minor thing. I'd present her with a logical, clear-cut solution that would be guaranteed to solve her problem, and she would just get angry at me.

Exactly! Took me 5 years into my marriage to learn that. 5 years of hearing about the "communication problems" that I had. Finally after all that time she came right out and told me "I don't want to hear the solution to my problem, I just want you to listen!". I was like, "Oh, I can do that". Now it's just nod and agree. Been married 30 years now and haven't had the communication problem argument since! I don't get it (why wouldn't you want to hear how to resolve your problem?) but hey, whatever . . .


This is what women want:
Link

Notice the lack of any: "offer an opinion". I had a couple years of experience doing this on a suicide hotline (you can apply it to other aspects of life, like relationships). You will be amazed at how well it works. Sorry I couldn't send you guys this link 10 years ago.
 
2012-07-03 02:18:41 PM

YixilTesiphon: It's the "having the same argument over and over" thing I don't get.


You're not actually arguing about what you are purporting to argue about.

The argument is a proxy and a pretext for the REAL conversation, which is going unstated.
 
2012-07-03 02:19:05 PM

Phinn: She comes in colors everywhere: If this is true for a given relationship, then the woman who is playing games around something as simple as "where dinner?" deserves to dine alone for the rest of her sad life.

I'll have the hummus plate appetizer and the scallops, please.

It's not a game to her. It's her genetic programming. It's what nature designed her to do -- find a male who will give her children kick-ass genes, and find a man who will stick with her and provider her with resources for life. She is constantly locked in a struggle with these two competing biological pressures.

She actually wants you to be both.

"Make good decisions for us" is just her way of testing you, to see if you are. Don't take it personally.


The problem that you are missing is that when the man does make the decision she rejects it, and then refuses to provide an alternative. It's been pointed out repeatedly in this thread.
 
2012-07-03 02:21:29 PM

Phinn: YixilTesiphon: It's the "having the same argument over and over" thing I don't get.

You're not actually arguing about what you are purporting to argue about.

The argument is a proxy and a pretext for the REAL conversation, which is going unstated.


No shiat, sherlock.

Something about your tone in this thread just really rubs me the wrong way.
 
2012-07-03 02:24:45 PM

cosmiquemuffin: Savage Bacon: Me: Where do you want to go to dinner?
Her: I don't know, I'm not sure what I want
Me: How about here, or here, or here, or here, or here?
Her: No, none of those sound good.
Me: Well what do you want?
Her: Why can't YOU make a decision?
Me - head asplode

UGH, this happens to us ALL the time, genders reversed though.

/ Love him wildly anyway


Not really the same. He's been conditioned, not necessarily by you, but by someone, that this is a game he can't win. He's decided to opt out.
 
2012-07-03 02:27:31 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: As a younger Farker (I'm 20 next month) I would like to say that some of y'all are scary as hayell.

/Maybe I'll just pass on this relationship stuff.

//So I can retain at least a small portion of my sanity.


Nope. You can't win, you can't break even, but you have to play.

Go ahead and fark up a few relationships. Then you'll be ready for a real one.
 
2012-07-03 02:29:56 PM

tira: Dear God, I read the first one in the politics tab, now this, am I a closet masochist, Fark?


Paging Coyote Doyenne to thread 7194329 for a consult.
 
2012-07-03 02:31:38 PM

fortheloveofgod: The problem that you are missing is that when the man does make the decision she rejects it, and then refuses to provide an alternative. It's been pointed out repeatedly in this thread.


I'm not missing anything.

The men who find themselves in this situation expect the woman to offer an alternative dinner option because they assume that the conversation is actually about where to go for dinner. They assume the man and the woman are equals and peers, and are discussing their choices rationally and logically, and both are equally responsible for their lives.

That's all wrong.

The conversation (as with ALL conversations between men and women) is ACTUALLY about defining and exhibiting the terms of their relationship.

By making him pick, then rejecting his choice, then refusing to suggest an alternative is her way of communicating something important.

It communicates that he's FAILING to ASSURE her that he's COMPETENT to make the choices that benefit both of them.

She's CHALLENGING his AUTHORITY and COMPETENCE. She's communicating a lack of CONFIDENCE is him, or maybe doubting his level of commitment to her, or maybe feeling a lack of excitement and interest in him sexually.

Talking about dinner is just a proxy and pretext for talking about the nature of their relationship -- what she thinks of you, what she believes you think of her, what she wants from you, and what she thinks you want from her, etc.

Until you realize that, you're going to go round and round like a dog chasing its tail. You keep missing the point, which is why the problem keeps recurring and getting worse.
 
2012-07-03 02:33:52 PM

nickerj1: fortheloveofgod: WhippingBoy: Savage Bacon: Woah! Gotta love the use of the ol' CAPS LOCK to get a point across. Really helps your argument, lady. I can feel your exasperation through your written word... Such angst!

One of the first thing I learned about relationships and the difference between men and women had to do with sympathizing vs. problem-solving. As a man, if I start talking to my male friends about an issue I'm having, it's pretty much advice solicitation on my part. If my gf comes to me with an issue, it's usually just to vent, so I let her vent. If she actually needs any advice, I wait for her to ask for it, because apparently giving advice really gets in the way of a good venting session.

Yep. Took me 10 years to learn this. Confused the hell out of me. My wife would come to me, complaining about some relatively minor thing. I'd present her with a logical, clear-cut solution that would be guaranteed to solve her problem, and she would just get angry at me.

Exactly! Took me 5 years into my marriage to learn that. 5 years of hearing about the "communication problems" that I had. Finally after all that time she came right out and told me "I don't want to hear the solution to my problem, I just want you to listen!". I was like, "Oh, I can do that". Now it's just nod and agree. Been married 30 years now and haven't had the communication problem argument since! I don't get it (why wouldn't you want to hear how to resolve your problem?) but hey, whatever . . .

This is what women want:
Link

Notice the lack of any: "offer an opinion". I had a couple years of experience doing this on a suicide hotline (you can apply it to other aspects of life, like relationships). You will be amazed at how well it works. Sorry I couldn't send you guys this link 10 years ago.


You can do some research on it if you're really interested. Here's a quick how-to for your gf/wife to think you're the best listener on earth:

Identify their feelings/emotions and the reason they're feeling that way.
Tell her: You're feeling [identified feeling/emotion] because [identified reason].

Example 1:
She says: This girl at work is really pissing me off by talking behind my back.
You say: You're really angry at a coworker biatch because she's gossiping about you.

If she doesn't give you the reason, or the reason is a mask (ie, isn't the true underlying reason), just reflect the feeling.

Example 2:
She says: God, I had such a horrible day at work.
You say: You're really frustrated right now.

Constantly reflecting accurate emotions will cause her to continue talking and tell you why. But sometimes girls hide the TRUE underlying emotion and/or hide the TRUE underlying reason.

Example 3:
She says: I'm really upset that I didn't get to talk to my friend again before she died in that car crash.
You say: You're really distraught over something you didn't get to tell your friend.
What she meant to say: She feels guilty the last thing she told her friend was that she looked fat after an argument.

With enough reflecting you'll be able to get her to what she meant to say and dig out those emotions and reasons.
 
2012-07-03 02:35:16 PM

Phinn: Talking about dinner is just a proxy and pretext for talking about the nature of their relationship -- what she thinks of you, what she believes you think of her, what she wants from you, and what she thinks you want from her, etc.


I understand that this can be the case in a lot of situations, but sometimes she just really doesn't want a burger, but can't decide what else she wants instead.
 
2012-07-03 02:35:32 PM

YixilTesiphon: No shiat, sherlock.

Something about your tone in this thread just really rubs me the wrong way.


You'll just have to find a way to cope.
 
2012-07-03 02:35:37 PM

nickerj1: With enough reflecting you'll be able to get her to what she meant to say and dig out those emotions and reasons.


Why would I want to?
 
2012-07-03 02:45:29 PM

Strategeryz0r: more information


I'm not advising you to "cut and run", just from what you had said before, it's very hard to equate this woman as a friend. Now that you've made it clearer (thank you) I even MORE say don't cut and run. However, the MDMA indulgence has got to stop. Anxiety and it...no no NONONONO! Pot...meh. Keep trying for the docs. I'm curious as to how you know which medication will absolutely help her, when no one will prescribe it? And not being silly, you mention psychiatrists...had you tried regular MD's in conjunction with the therapy?

All in all, marriage is serious. And it sounds like you are giving your all to try to keep it going. However, if indeed she acknowledges her anxiety and depression instances, you need to be able to set them out in front of her when she's acting out. No, it might not do any good all the time, but to say to her "remember when you admitted that you blow up and are unreasonable and you KNOW this is your anxiety talking, not YOU...blah blah" is a fair card to play, whether or not she likes it. Things will always confuse the hell out of you until such time as her anxiety and depression are better under control. Know that this is not YOUR issue. Don't try to understand what will make it all work out, because this won't all work out. Nothing you can do until the medical issues are taken care of will be of any influence. I urge you to not give up, keep going through physicians. Try a hotline for a referral. Try to get a referral from your local ER staff. Just keep trying. But STOP thinking it's something you can help. You can't. You're doing all you can by just not walking away and leaving her to deal with this on her own. And for that you have my utmost respect. I know it's not easy, not at all.
 
2012-07-03 02:49:52 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Oldiron_79: One thats always bugged me is that most women who like to biatch and moan about how guys are so picky about looks (weight mainly) but most women strait up will not go out with a Red headed man. If you wanna biatch about us not farking fatties you need to go fark a ginger.

Hot Red Head Thread!


Damn, it's been years.
 
2012-07-03 02:51:19 PM

Nogale: [farm8.staticflickr.com image 480x340]


No, that's exactly why men should write advice columns: The car can be fixed.

The marriage is dead.
There's nothing Sheila can do about the cheating bastard except divorce him and move on, and she already knows that.

/John should have asked whether Sheila had remembered to fuel the car first, though.
 
2012-07-03 02:53:19 PM

susansto-helit: asmodeusazarak: susansto-helit: I have to admit that #4 really pisses me off. I cannot control when I start crying, so don't accuse me of using it as a weapon when I do.

If you'd grown up as a man you'd have to learn to control when you start crying.

Actually, my dad always saw crying as a weakness (not his fault - his dad was a real hard ass when he was a kid, evidently), so I was raised not to. Sadly, my emotions exit through my eyes or sit in my stomach and cause ulcers. Crying's better. ;)


Then I suppose you won't mind if we make zero effort to control our tempers. Hey, five across the eyes would probably do you some good occasionally.
 
2012-07-03 02:54:05 PM

fortheloveofgod: Phinn: Look, people -- when a woman tells you she wants you to make a decision about where to eat dinner, then criticizes your decision, YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DINNER.

You are PRETENDING to talk about dinner.

However, you are ACTUALLY talking about whether you are a suitable mate for her. This is a TEST of your manhood.

If this is true, why does it continue 30 years into marriage?


Because most women are CRAZY.
 
2012-07-03 02:55:12 PM
Almost every romantic movie is about getting the man, not what to do after you've got him.
 
2012-07-03 02:56:16 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Almost every romantic movie is about getting the man, not what to do after you've got him.


"... and they lived happily ever after."

See? That's the easy part.
 
2012-07-03 02:58:51 PM

mcwehrle: Strategeryz0r: more information

I'm not advising you to "cut and run", just from what you had said before, it's very hard to equate this woman as a friend. Now that you've made it clearer (thank you) I even MORE say don't cut and run. However, the MDMA indulgence has got to stop. Anxiety and it...no no NONONONO! Pot...meh. Keep trying for the docs. I'm curious as to how you know which medication will absolutely help her, when no one will prescribe it? And not being silly, you mention psychiatrists...had you tried regular MD's in conjunction with the therapy?

All in all, marriage is serious. And it sounds like you are giving your all to try to keep it going. However, if indeed she acknowledges her anxiety and depression instances, you need to be able to set them out in front of her when she's acting out. No, it might not do any good all the time, but to say to her "remember when you admitted that you blow up and are unreasonable and you KNOW this is your anxiety talking, not YOU...blah blah" is a fair card to play, whether or not she likes it. Things will always confuse the hell out of you until such time as her anxiety and depression are better under control. Know that this is not YOUR issue. Don't try to understand what will make it all work out, because this won't all work out. Nothing you can do until the medical issues are taken care of will be of any influence. I urge you to not give up, keep going through physicians. Try a hotline for a referral. Try to get a referral from your local ER staff. Just keep trying. But STOP thinking it's something you can help. You can't. You're doing all you can by just not walking away and leaving her to deal with this on her own. And for that you have my utmost respect. I know it's not easy, not at all.


I can see what you mean about it being difficult to equate her as a friend to me. But reality is she really is. I've never found anyone else that I actually can just stay home and have a good time with more often than not. I don't want to lose her, I just want the her I met back. So thank you for seeing that I wasn't trying to attack you with that last post, a rare quality on fark. I appreciate that, and I think you're right in many respects.

We haven't tried a regular doc, just psychiatrists. We know certain medications that work from her history. Long before she met me her mom re-married and my wife was on her step-dads tri-care USAF insurance plan. She took advantage of that at one point and saw a psych when they lived in Nevada(Her family moved to Idaho about 6 years ago). That psych tried a combo of anti-depressants and fast acting anti-anxiety meds like Xanex, and apparently it worked like a charm. We have brought this up to every doctor that we have seen, even had medical records faxed to them from Nevada showing these previous prescriptions. Yet they all continuously treat her like some kind of drug addict or drug dealer just looking for easy xanex to pop/sell. When that isn't the case. Apparently doctors in Idaho have been put under an insane amount of scrutiny by the state for over-prescribing easily abused medication like pain killers and anti-anxiety meds.

I think we should try and get her into a regular doc like you suggest. Probably will be my next suggestion to her. Thanks.
 
2012-07-03 02:59:45 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Almost every romantic movie is about getting the man, not what to do after you've got him.


Why change him to match what you really wanted, of course. It doesn't need to be said because it's so obvious.
 
2012-07-03 03:00:40 PM

nickerj1: Example 1:
She says: This girl at work is really pissing me off by talking behind my back.
You say: You're really angry at a coworker biatch because she's gossiping about you.

If she doesn't give you the reason, or the reason is a mask (ie, isn't the true underlying reason), just reflect the feeling.

Example 2:
She says: God, I had such a horrible day at work.
You say: You're really frustrated right now.

Constantly reflecting accurate emotions will cause her to continue talking and tell you why. But sometimes girls hide the TRUE underlying emotion and/or hide the TRUE underlying reason.

Example 3:
She says: I'm really upset that I didn't get to talk to my friend again before she died in that car crash.
You say: You're really distraught over something you didn't get to tell your friend.


This is some of the most asinine advice I have seen on here and I sure hope you're not serious. You try this on your wife or gf for real, and you will be sleeping on the couch. She will think you are mocking and belittling her. I am speaking from experience. This crap is annoying enough when a therapist does it to you (again, speaking from experience) but if you try this on your spouse you're liable to end up with a frying pan to your head.
 
2012-07-03 03:01:45 PM

Strategeryz0r: Few things.1) What I saw when we got married was COMPLETELY different from what I ended up with now. Even she has admitted this on numerous occasions, yet has no clue(so she says) why that is. I have asked her point blank if I am doing anything to contribute, and am constantly told "no, it's all me." Which is fairly believable when you factor in a lot of things that have happened to her in the past(I, quite literally, am the first good man to ever enter her life.)2) She's my best friend in a sense of I love spending time with her, we have a lot in common, and get along very well. There are just a handful of very hot button issues that spiral out of control from simple disagreements to WW3. These precipitated previous pullings of the "divorce card."3) She has seen somebody, as have I. I was diagnosed with clinical depression, she was diagnosed as a poster child for anxiety. Problem: We cannot find a single psychiatrist who is willing to prescribe medication that actually works for her. Doctors in my area, and we have tried FIVE different docs, seem to be completely gunshy when it comes to prescribing medication that can help her control her anxiety. Instead giving her long term anti-depressants and hoping for the best. Yet when it comes to some form of medication for controlling anxiety attacks when they occur, they flat out refuse to prescribe anything despite 0 history of drug addiction(we smoke pot occasionally, and maybe indulge in a 3 -5 nights a year of MDMA indulgence).So my question is not so much why should I get a divorce, the reasons are spelled out in front of me. However, I don't treat my marriage as a game. I take the whole commitment very seriously, and will only entertain divorce as a plausible option when we have exhausted everything else. As a manner of working towards a common goal of not only getting along better, but improving my relationship, I am looking for advice on how to deal with things that confuse the hell out of me.Not someone telling m ...


Have you ever tried seeing someone together, for couples therapy? You mention that you've both been to see someone, but if the issue is how you are interacting with each other regarding the "hot-button" issues, then I'm not sure how effective separate therapy is. Couples therapy certainly helped my girlfriend and I.
 
2012-07-03 03:05:46 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: catering to the female mindset just isn't worth all the complications


DING!
 
2012-07-03 03:06:13 PM

CheekyMonkey: Have you ever tried seeing someone together, for couples therapy? You mention that you've both been to see someone, but if the issue is how you are interacting with each other regarding the "hot-button" issues, then I'm not sure how effective separate therapy is. Couples therapy certainly helped my girlfriend and I.


See I pitched that idea myself. Couples therapy in tandem with the individual work. She thinks that our problems mostly get caused by her anxiety. She starts having an anxiety attack and starts getting worked up(usually verbally, and in an assaulting manner towards me usually) which sets me off and causes our fights to be biblical. She refused couples therapy saying she would like to try and work on herself first, and then try couples therapy after she starts feeling like she's improving.
 
2012-07-03 03:08:39 PM

mightybaldking: fortheloveofgod: !

And the second half of this is - when I get home from work she wants me to recap my entire day to her. The last thing that I want to do after I get home from work is to re-live that god awful day! As soon as I walk in the door I want to forget about work entirely.



I just print out all source code I generate.
Her: How did your day go?
Me: <dump>


Hehehe - now this actually works! I have used it on occasion and the results are awesome!

Her: How was your day?
Me: Ugh. The primary DNS sever went down and none of the IIS bindings would work. To make matters worse, the BAR team couldn't locate the tape backups for the server from yesterday so we couldn't do a system restore to it's last know good state. (5 minutes later)
Her: Oh.
 
2012-07-03 03:10:28 PM
Your nugget of wisdom for the day:

Upon starting a new relationship men will explain who they are and tell the truth. Women will say this is ok, and lie.
 
2012-07-03 03:26:09 PM

padraig: IrateShadow: Meh, the women who think like that are really easy to deal with. Dump 'em and try a different one.

Also, I noticed that the author of this article does not even bother to respond to some of those points. She's just expressing dismay that men could think like that. There is absolutely NO empathy to the viewpoints of the other gender.


And many of her responses are just nonsensical mean-girl taunts.

I love how outraged she is that he provides specific, concrete examples of confounding behaviour some women exhibit. As if it is completely impossible that these examples could be extrapolated to apply to other women, say, the article writer herself. That would be unthinkable.
 
2012-07-03 03:27:27 PM
The problem started way back when we men let women have equal rights. Now, women mistakenly believe that their opinions are logical and valid, when in reality all that the world hears is squaking and a constant high-pitch tone. We should take back womens' rights. The world would be less retarded. Men know what is best for women anyway.
 
2012-07-03 03:35:19 PM

Strategeryz0r: CheekyMonkey: Have you ever tried seeing someone together, for couples therapy? You mention that you've both been to see someone, but if the issue is how you are interacting with each other regarding the "hot-button" issues, then I'm not sure how effective separate therapy is. Couples therapy certainly helped my girlfriend and I.

See I pitched that idea myself. Couples therapy in tandem with the individual work. She thinks that our problems mostly get caused by her anxiety. She starts having an anxiety attack and starts getting worked up(usually verbally, and in an assaulting manner towards me usually) which sets me off and causes our fights to be biblical. She refused couples therapy saying she would like to try and work on herself first, and then try couples therapy after she starts feeling like she's improving.


When she starts verbally abusing you, is it possible for you back out of the situation, and not engage her, or is there no escape? What I mean by this is, are you able to ask her to back off from the confrontation, and will she do so?
Once she becomes over-emotional, continuing the "conversation" does neither of you any good. Until everyone cools down, continued engagement can only be unproductive at best, and likely damaging.

This sounds very similar to my situation. My girlfriend would become extremely upset, over seemingly nothing, and it would turn into her recounting everything I had ever done wrong, in her eyes. There was no escape (she would follow me from room to room) apart from physically leaving my house.

Also, have either of you tracked when this occurs? As we were working through our situation, it turned out that my girlfriend's episodes were timed with her menstrual cycle. In addition to helping us relate to each other in a more constructive way, our therapist prescribed something (Xanex, maybe) for her to take when she's feeling extra-anxious, right before her period. She doesn't need it all the time, just around that time of the month. The difference is really astounding. Neither of us are much for chemical solutions, but this has made an amazing difference.
 
2012-07-03 03:35:42 PM
harbingerofdoom: Oldiron_79: Nogale: R.A.Danny: ignatius_crumbcake: R.A.Danny: Strategeryz0r: Yet another absurd female double standard. Seriously if it weren't for vagina's we'd all be gay.

You forgot tits.

This is why being gay simply cannot be a choice. If being gay were a choice, there would be no straight men.

I actually know a few gay guys that love tits. They're almost universally adored.

Most gay guys I know appreciate women's bodies. They just don't want to have sex with them.

I could see that. I mean most strait guys appreciate a well built guys body even though they don't want to have sex with it. If they didn't sports would not be very popular.

maybe im in the minority here... but, i dont watch sports because of how the players look. when im watching a play take shape, im not looking at them, im looking at how the guards are pulling, where the olb is lining up, is the safety creeping up, did the qb look off the corners, does the 1 keep ignoring the fact that the 3 is wide open beyond the arc, is there a mismatch between the 4 covering the 5 in the low post, was that pick & roll legal, is the 2 ignoring a clear shot and if so why....

the last thing i care about is what they look like while any of that is going on.


Not saying I watch sports to look at the looks of the buffed players, more to look at the amazing moves they can pull off that a normal not 6 pack in shape could not do if they wanted to.
 
2012-07-03 03:38:48 PM
the other reason she will refuse to tell you where she wants to eat
is that instead of just telling you where she wants to eat (like a man friend would do)
she wants you to determine where it really is that she wants to go.

after all, if you *really* loved her, you would just know and you wouldn't need her to tell you.
 
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