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(Miami Herald)   Because, when seeing the doctor, discussions about firearms always come up and I want to know the doctor's opinion on the stopping power of a .357 vs a .45   (miamiherald.com) divider line 104
    More: Florida, Miami, stopping power, federal judges, North Miami Beach, preventive medicines, gun ownership, Jackson Memorial Hospital, family physician  
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6417 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jul 2012 at 9:52 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-03 09:21:16 AM
Cooke, the judge, said the legislation was based on anecdotal information and unfounded conjecture. Her decision was praised by the groups of plaintiffs, which included the Florida Pediatric Society and Florida Academy of Family Physicians.

Oh, that's silly. We never do that.

Now let me check to see if my voter registration has been purged.
 
2012-07-03 09:47:35 AM
Dr. Questionnaire: Do you own firearms?

Patient Answer:

Not an issue.
 
2012-07-03 09:49:33 AM
I dunno, I would think an Emergency Room physician in Florida could comment quite cogently on the effects of various calibers of bullets on the human body.
 
2012-07-03 09:59:21 AM
The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.
 
2012-07-03 10:02:17 AM

Ennuipoet: I dunno, I would think an Emergency Room physician in Florida could comment quite cogently on the effects of various calibers of bullets on the human body.


You would think. But then, most physicians are functionally technicians, who are very skilled in the repetitive mechanics of their role and have a great capacity for memorizing information, but often exhibit poor reasoning and analysis skills. They also suffer from a raging god-complex.
 
2012-07-03 10:03:37 AM

HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.


Think of this as the conservative side of the "can pharmacists refuse to provide birth-control" argument. In your professional capacity, you have reduced rights to self-expression when it impairs your ability to treat others.
 
2012-07-03 10:04:19 AM
That's okay. When a doctor brings up a subject that I think is out of bounds, I just change the subject to nosocomial infections and iatrogenesis.
 
2012-07-03 10:05:11 AM
Why is the government trying to get in between a patient and their doctor? DAMN YOU
The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

Any bets if this even ever happened?

Two Miami-Dade physicians - Wollschlaeger, the family practitioner in North Miami Beach, and pediatrician Judith Schaechter of the University of Miami School of Medicine and Jackson Memorial Hospital - said in court papers that they had discontinued questioning patients about guns on standard health-screening forms.

Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?
 
2012-07-03 10:05:41 AM
Wait, I thought Republicans were against government telling you what you can and can't do.
 
2012-07-03 10:05:59 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Dr. Questionnaire: Do you own firearms?

Patient Answer:

Not an issue.


More like "Doc, I have come to you for medical services, not politically motivated claptrap. Stick to medicine, not constitutional law".

Having said that, the outcome here is correct: It is wrong to stifle one right while try to protect another. Like most Second Amendment advocates I value *ALL* of the Bill of Rights.
 
2012-07-03 10:07:08 AM

HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.


Physician: Do you own any illegally downloaded music or films?

Patient: What? What the fark does that have to do with my knee pain? None of your farking business!

Physician: I'm sorry, but I won't be able to treat you if you don't answer my questions.

Patient: ..............................................................
 
2012-07-03 10:07:16 AM
That's as much a question of the type of ammo as caliber of firearm.

/duh
/dnrtfa
 
2012-07-03 10:09:00 AM
Guaranteed the guy is a /k/ommando.
 
2012-07-03 10:10:41 AM

Hagenhatesyouall: HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.

Physician: Do you own any illegally downloaded music or films?

Patient: What? What the fark does that have to do with my knee pain? None of your farking business!

Physician: I'm sorry, but I won't be able to treat you if you don't answer my questions.

Patient: ..............................................................


Yeah, I'd find a different doctor.

But nice absurd parallel.
 
2012-07-03 10:12:29 AM
My doctor collects firearms, hunts and shoots trap and skeet. We always talk about guns. He also keeps a box of the same gun locks in the office that the police department gives out if anyone wants one. I don't see the problem...
 
2012-07-03 10:14:54 AM

dittybopper: : It is wrong to stifle one right while try to protect another. Like most Second Amendment advocates I value *ALL* of the Bill of Rights.

 
2012-07-03 10:15:52 AM

cirby: That's okay. When a doctor brings up a subject that I think is out of bounds, I just change the subject to nosocomial infections and iatrogenesis.


I knew there was a reason I had you in green.
 
2012-07-03 10:18:10 AM

Hagenhatesyouall: HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.

Physician: Do you own any illegally downloaded music or films?

Patient: What? What the fark does that have to do with my knee pain? None of your farking business!

Physician: I'm sorry, but I won't be able to treat you if you don't answer my questions.

Patient: ..............................................................



Ok?

And?

If I choose, at my private business, to restrict my sells from anyone wearing the color red, it's my business to do so.
Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.
 
2012-07-03 10:22:21 AM

Bunnyhat: Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.


Just like pharmacists with RU486 amirite?
 
2012-07-03 10:23:14 AM

Bunnyhat: If I choose, at my private business, to restrict my sells from anyone wearing the color red, it's my business to do so.


Not really but it's a great concept.
 
2012-07-03 10:23:39 AM
My kids pediatrician hasn't asked, but then, last time they called to confirm an appointment I was at the range and it was kinda noisy in the background.
 
2012-07-03 10:28:36 AM
My doctor likes the .357 due to its velocity. I prefer the .45 due to its mass. While both get the job done, I believe that ultimately, the .45 wins.

/My doc and I talk firearms all the time.
 
2012-07-03 10:29:28 AM
The phrase "stopping power" should be banned from existence, it means nothing.
 
2012-07-03 10:33:23 AM

Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?


You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"
 
2012-07-03 10:34:39 AM

R.A.Danny: Bunnyhat: Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.

Just like pharmacists with RU486 amirite?


Owning a gun and needing time sensitive medicine is totally the same thing.
 
2012-07-03 10:36:11 AM

Bunnyhat: Hagenhatesyouall: HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.

Physician: Do you own any illegally downloaded music or films?

Patient: What? What the fark does that have to do with my knee pain? None of your farking business!

Physician: I'm sorry, but I won't be able to treat you if you don't answer my questions.

Patient: ..............................................................


Ok?

And?

If I choose, at my private business, to restrict my sells from anyone wearing the color red, it's my business to do so.
Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.


I agree that private business should very well be able to decide who they will and will not serve, however, that isn't the case these days due to "special" people claiming "discrimination", and our farked up court system upholding their claims.
 
2012-07-03 10:37:18 AM
Dan Gross, president of the Brady Center, said in a statement following Cooke's decision. "Guns kill eight children every day.

Where do they get these numbers? Oh yeah, they count anyone up to the age of 26 or so, also of those "kids" we'll count the gang bangers shot by LEOs while they are returning fire.

/facepalm
 
2012-07-03 10:38:02 AM
My Doctor also teaches a concealed carry class so the subject comes up.

We both prefer the .45 for it's ability to quickly lower the blood pressure of an intruder.
 
2012-07-03 10:38:35 AM
When I was a kid, my doc had gone on hunts all over the world and had taken just about every kind of animal. I asked him what round he used. He had always used 375 H&H.

Years later, I bought a Ruger number 1 in 375 H&H. Was very pleased with it. Less recoil than my long barrel 45/70.
 
2012-07-03 10:39:22 AM

HotWingConspiracy: R.A.Danny: Bunnyhat: Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.

Just like pharmacists with RU486 amirite?

Owning a gun and needing time sensitive medicine is totally the same thing.


They are VERY different. Owning a gun is an enumerated right.
 
2012-07-03 10:43:26 AM
Some pediatricians go the extra mile for their patients (the kids, not the parents) and may ask additional environmental questions to determine if there are additional health risks in the household that they can provide some advice on.

The gun question is probably silly, but comes from a good place. Since kids are as likely to kill themselves as anything else with unsupervised access to a gun, it's kind of the same as asking the parents if they have put child-proof locks on the cabinet with the kitchen cleaners under the sink. "oh, you keep the drano in the open next to the bathtub? you might want to move it so the kid doesn't drink it". "oh, you have a gun in the house and it's not kept unloaded/locked away? you might want to do something about that since the kid could kill themselves".

There's a lot of stupid parents out there who could use such advice on issues they are too retarded to think of themselves. But if they're extra stupid they complain to their elected representatives.
 
2012-07-03 10:46:36 AM

Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"


Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?
 
2012-07-03 10:48:47 AM

R.A.Danny: HotWingConspiracy: R.A.Danny: Bunnyhat: Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.

Just like pharmacists with RU486 amirite?

Owning a gun and needing time sensitive medicine is totally the same thing.

They are VERY different. Owning a gun is an enumerated right.


Yes, but that has little to do with anything being discussed.
 
2012-07-03 10:53:59 AM

HotWingConspiracy: The Republican-controlled state Legislature adopted the Firearm Owners' Privacy Act in 2011 after an Ocala couple complained that a doctor asked them about guns and they refused to answer. The physician refused to see them anymore.

I like that the remedy the GOP came up with was restricting free speech rights rather than telling them to find a different doctor. It really captures their essence.


Yes, ironic how they chose the "big government" solution over the "free market" solution. Especially being it a "big government" solution that is healthcare related and involves sticking the government between the patient and doctor.
 
2012-07-03 10:55:24 AM

HotWingConspiracy: R.A.Danny: HotWingConspiracy: R.A.Danny: Bunnyhat: Owning a gun might be in the 2nd amendment, but it doesn't make you a protected class. I can deny you service and you are free to find another place to do business.

Just like pharmacists with RU486 amirite?

Owning a gun and needing time sensitive medicine is totally the same thing.

They are VERY different. Owning a gun is an enumerated right.

Yes, but that has little to do with anything being discussed.


You were talking about it too! Jeez, this is like fighting with my wife.
 
2012-07-03 10:59:46 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"

Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?


It's their (pediatricians) job to look after the health and safety of their patient (the child).
They also typically ask questions about having a pool, locking away chemicals, etc. Guns are equally capable of harming a kid, so they'll recommend a gun safe, etc. Not turn you in or "take yer guns away!"
 
2012-07-03 11:00:01 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Owning a gun and needing time sensitive medicine is totally the same thing.


It can be if you don't handle it correctly.
 
2012-07-03 11:01:57 AM
Wow, this is not that complicated of an issue. Banning a doctor from asking questions about gun ownership is so incredibly stupid.

First, asking questions about gun ownership doesn't mean refusing services, or infringing on constitutional rights. It's asking questions. It's a freakin doctor. He's supposed to ask questions. And if a doctor wants to make a push to keep people from getting shot by educating patients about gun safety, I'm all for it.

Second, false equivalences about Plan B are false. Denying medication based on beliefs you are forcing on another is completely different from asking questions about household safety issues, especially when nobody is getting denied treatment because of gun ownership (besides this one anecdotal claim from the NRA that was used to justify the whole thing). Meanwhile, there are plenty of right wing doctors and pharmacists who would use their "moral convictions" to deny healthcare to others.

Finally, talk about authoritarian bullshiat. So a doctor asks a question you don't like, which means that every doctor in the entire state should be forced to keep silent because you're the man in charge and they have to do what you tell them, goddammit. Meanwhile, a normal person who doesn't get along with their doctor ... gets a different doctor. It's not exactly rocket surgery. And before you start that birth control false equivalency crap again, denying treatment, especially time sensitive treatment != asking a health and safety question.
 
2012-07-03 11:02:53 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?


Potential lead poisoning.
 
2012-07-03 11:04:53 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"

Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?


Look one post up from yours for one answer.

A bad doctor will kill your kid by malpractice. A decent doctor will get him his shots and stitch him up. A good doctor will also give out advice for keeping your kid in good health, like "don't let him play with guns."
 
2012-07-03 11:05:28 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"

Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?


That would be a matter between the patient and the doctor, and nobody else.
 
2012-07-03 11:07:48 AM

I May Be Crazy But...: stiletto_the_wise: Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"

Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?

Look one post up from yours for one answer.

A bad doctor will kill your kid by malpractice. A decent doctor will get him his shots and stitch him up. A good doctor will also give out advice for keeping your kid in good health, like "don't let him play with guns."


Also: what if the patient being treated is an alcoholic? A drug abuser? lapsing into dementia? Might it not be responsible to inquire? Either way, it's still a matter between patient and doctor.
 
2012-07-03 11:09:20 AM

Whiskey Dickens: Guaranteed the guy is a /k/ommando.


7.62x54r clearly outclasses both .45 and .357
 
2012-07-03 11:10:36 AM
The Doctor doesn't like weapons. He likes bananas. Bananas are good.

i127.photobucket.com

/hot
//good source of potassium
 
2012-07-03 11:11:42 AM

Vantango84: Whiskey Dickens: Guaranteed the guy is a /k/ommando.

7.62x54r clearly outclasses both .45 and .357


Only if you get the expensive, non-corrosive stuff.
 
2012-07-03 11:16:14 AM
I prefer the 357 Mag, seems to be easier for me to manage. I would imagine the 45 makes a bigger hole though cuz damn thats a fat slug! BLAMO!
 
2012-07-03 11:16:24 AM

KidneyStone: Vantango84: Whiskey Dickens: Guaranteed the guy is a /k/ommando.

7.62x54r clearly outclasses both .45 and .357

Only if you get the expensive, non-corrosive stuff.


Hey, the corrosive surplus is just as powerful, and that stuff will stay usable forever

/just bought some 1946 surplus
//threadjack over
///I'll go back to my magical place...
 
2012-07-03 11:20:27 AM

jso2897: I May Be Crazy But...: stiletto_the_wise: Misch: Satanic_Hamster: Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?

You follow with the question: "Do you have the weapons stored safely behind locks and keys out of the access of the children?"

Still isn't anything medically relevant... what illness does this line of questioning end up diagnosing?

Look one post up from yours for one answer.

A bad doctor will kill your kid by malpractice. A decent doctor will get him his shots and stitch him up. A good doctor will also give out advice for keeping your kid in good health, like "don't let him play with guns."

Also: what if the patient being treated is an alcoholic? A drug abuser? lapsing into dementia? Might it not be responsible to inquire? Either way, it's still a matter between patient and doctor.


Well, if a pediatrician's patient is an alcoholic, there might be a problem that needs to be addressed. But the point is certainly a good one.
 
2012-07-03 11:23:26 AM

Satanic_Hamster:
Curious, though, why this would be a standard question. What do they do if the patient answers yes?


I lived in Florida for about 8 years and still keep up on Florida stuff, so this isn't the first I've seen of this law. Basically, if you have guns, they ask if you know about gun safety and give you materials on gun safety.

If you have guns and kids as well, they ask if you are keeping your guns secure, and provide information on how to do so.

That's the general protocol, at least. It sounded like the incident in question was just a random doctor acting unprofessionally, if it even happened. That's an issue with the specific doctor, though, not the entire profession.

I don't know why the NRA would be against gun safety awareness, but sometimes I think they get overzealous about these "us vs. them" moments.
 
2012-07-03 11:28:43 AM

I May Be Crazy But...: A bad doctor will kill your kid by malpractice. A decent doctor will get him his shots and stitch him up. A good doctor will also give out advice for keeping your kid in good health, like "don't let him play with guns."


I can see it being reasonable to for a doctor to answer "Should I let my 4 year old play with my 9mm?" with "No" if the patient really had that question, but why would a doctor purposely bring the subject up, out of all the other actual relevant health-related things to discuss?

Do you drink?
No.
Smoke?
No.
On any medication?
No.
History of illness?
Not really.
Do your parents have any hereditary diseases?
No.
DO YOU OWN AN ASSAULT RIFLE?
Wha????

It just doesn't fit. It makes as much sense as asking a patient whether they skydive.
 
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