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(Bloomberg)   Some time ago, Colorado Springs, Colorado decided to try and cut government spending by letting residents pay for their emergency response services a la carte. Let's just see how well that's working out for them   (bloomberg.com ) divider line
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2012-07-03 11:21:02 AM  
Please tell me that these Tea-Tards also pushed through tort reform and massive deregulation on the insurance industry in Colorado, because if so watching them try to get their insurance claims pushed through is going to provide EPIC LULZ.
 
2012-07-03 11:21:24 AM  

GAT_00: Honestly, I think they should be held to their principles, made to pay for the entire operation and bailout funds denied. After all, the city should pull itself up by its bootstraps. That is exactly what they voted for.


Your newsletter sir, where may I subscribe?
 
2012-07-03 11:21:59 AM  

Doc Daneeka: However, in this country, there are a sizable number of people who never mature past the self-centered childhood view of the world. And the wield disproportionate political power.


It isn't even self-centered thinking. It is delusional. That guy would have saved money by accepting the tax increase. He acted against his self interests in order to be true to his dogma. There really is nothing that can fix that.

You are totally right about the 'disproportionate political power' thought. Alaska, Wyoming, North and South Dakota have six Senators and less population than Connecticut. That is a big problem.
 
2012-07-03 11:22:50 AM  
OK then, do to a complete lack of other answers, I must conclude that:

1. The fake libertarians are indistinguishable from Real Libertarians
2. Real Libertarians would also go screaming for Federal Aid in a crisis, small government principles or not.

This is why you've never convinced me of anything Weaver. Because when i ask hard questions, you only dodge them or confirm what I've believed all along.
 
2012-07-03 11:23:54 AM  

Emrick: You are totally right about the 'disproportionate political power' thought. Alaska, Wyoming, North and South Dakota have six Senators and less population than Connecticut. That is a big problem.


Land has always meant representation in our system.
 
2012-07-03 11:24:26 AM  

Emrick: You are totally right about the 'disproportionate political power' thought. Alaska, Wyoming, North and South Dakota have six Senators and less population than Connecticut. That is a big problem.


Make that eight Senators.

/the problem is even worse.
 
2012-07-03 11:24:35 AM  

dr_blasto: It is possible that Colorado Springs goes full Detroit. You never go full Detroit.


Colorado Spring's economy is based mostly on trickle down from Department of Defense spending. They live off the Federal teat. Sure they have some tourism and attract retirement money but they actually produce next to nothing that gets sold outside of the region.

Developers have fueled a over-optimistic construction boom and even now there is a glut of housing which means there is little work in the road and housing construction industries and thus no need to house those workers which in itself contributes to the glut.

As Iraq and Afghanistan are exited there will be Defense spending cuts which will further shrink the CS economy.

I don't know if it will wind up in a Detroit like scenario where the is lots of abandoned housing, but I would avoid investing in real estate there.
 
2012-07-03 11:24:44 AM  

doyner: One little point of note:

They still pay federal taxes, soooooo...


Are you sure about that? Maybe we should send some IRS auditors in right behind the FEMA folks, just to be safe.
 
2012-07-03 11:24:47 AM  
Someone needs to kidnap Grover Norquist in the most friendly way possible and drop his ass out of a plane to get on the fire line in Colorado.
 
2012-07-03 11:24:58 AM  

GAT_00: OK then, do to a complete lack of other answers, I must conclude that:

1. The fake libertarians are indistinguishable from Real Libertarians
2. Real Libertarians would also go screaming for Federal Aid in a crisis, small government principles or not.

This is why you've never convinced me of anything Weaver. Because when i ask hard questions, you only dodge them or confirm what I've believed all along.


If only there was a Turing test for true libertarians/christians/scotsmen...
 
2012-07-03 11:25:27 AM  
I guess I should have added the third logical possibility, that True Libertarianism really has nothing to say on the matter at hand.

Making it, on the one hand, blameless- but on the other, useless.
 
2012-07-03 11:26:43 AM  

Emrick: It isn't even self-centered thinking. It is delusional. That guy would have saved money by accepting the tax increase. He acted against his self interests in order to be true to his dogma. There really is nothing that can fix that.


It's not being able to admit what you have been told to believe is wrong and not being able to admit that somebody you hate was right. These people will continue with their beliefs even though their city is burning and being looted because of it.
 
2012-07-03 11:27:07 AM  

doyner: Land has always meant representation in our system.


That isn't true. Alaska wasn't a state for almost 100 years. They didn't have any voting members of Congress during that time.
 
2012-07-03 11:27:15 AM  

Weaver95: Most libertarians look at colorado springs and wonder WTF those people were thinking....'cause they sure as hell aren't libertarians.


Please explain to us how they aren't libertarian. I understand they are a bunch of fundies, but if you are going to argue that them being a bunch of fundies is what caused this then you need to explain the differentiation.

Simply saying because they are bad christians makes them bad libertarians is not a valid argument.

They voted for spending cuts, in light of those cuts they outsourced the work(which didn't save any money), cut services, and told residents to pay for the services that they did want out of their own pocket. How is this not libertarian?
 
2012-07-03 11:27:24 AM  
Well, I was hoping to get an answer on whether or not Colorado Springs is 'okay' by Libertarian philosophy to do this to their town, or not...

Reading his posts, I'd say yes. But he never did say, one way or the other.
 
2012-07-03 11:28:05 AM  

Infernalist: The mess they're enduring is one of their own choosing and careful design. No Federal agents forced it on them and no one slipped anything in under the radar. Every last bit of this was self-chosen by men of sound mind...

So, is it or is it not OKAY by True Libertarian philosophy for them to do this to their community?


Finally a good question.
Does a community have the right to commit suicide?
If so, then the argument I and Weaver have been making that they are not libertarian policies is invalid.
If not, then who should have the authority to stop them.
correct?
 
2012-07-03 11:28:54 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Maud Dib: dr_blasto:

Now they have to contend with a pretty bleak future. Colorado Springs gets a significant portion of revenue from taxes related to tourism.

We would normally be in Colorado this time of year. It's an easy drive for us from Austin, TX, and it is usually quite nice up in the mountains this time of year. We can get away from the heat. We spend a LOT of $$ on rafting, dining, hotels, etc.
It's not happening this year, we're planning on staying local.
But we'll miss Colorado. They even parked a big billboard downtown. I imagine tourist revenue is way off this year.
But I can at least go sit in the river and have a cold beer.

That's kind of funny considering that some of the times I've been in Colorado (I go several times a year for work), I've heard locals complain about "all the Texans". It reminds me of every college town that biatches about the students.

The odd part is that it's almost always about Texans. Sometimes Californians, but usually Texans. Those are the only two states that get mentioned.


The complaints about Californians are soooo 1990's. It's old hat.
 
2012-07-03 11:29:50 AM  

ongbok: Emrick: It isn't even self-centered thinking. It is delusional. That guy would have saved money by accepting the tax increase. He acted against his self interests in order to be true to his dogma. There really is nothing that can fix that.


That's what they're saying in Detroit and DC as well.
 
2012-07-03 11:30:37 AM  

Bloody William: GAT_00: Until people are held responsible for their own actions, this won't stop. We ALL pay for their short-sighted dumbass principles. Every single one of us. And we're going to keep paying for it. This will keep happening. The West is going to keep getting drier and turn into a tinderbox. The South will be inundated by storms and heat waves. These disasters are going to keep getting worse, and we ALL pay when cities cut everything from their government and refuse to prepare, because it's unpopular to spend money and prepare.

We can keep paying for their ignorance. We can keep saving them after the fact, which is far more expensive than decent preparations. Someone needs to tell people that your words matter. Your ACTIONS matter. This is what you want? This is what you get.

It leads to an unfortunate humanitarian dilemma. If we help them, they'll never learn. If we don't help them, they'll either die or... still not learn. We can make a point as a society or we can treat them like human beings who deserve help, but we simply can't do both. And even if we hold them as an example, there's no guarantee the example will actually process with these insane zealots. The odds of that are pretty low.



I hear you- problem is the innocents. Only 20% of these people (men, women, children) likely voted for this. The moral way to solve this is to have Obama come rolling into town personally with the bag of money and have him give a speech pointing out how government is helping, while dressing down the mayor and dignitaries who cut services that would have mitigated this disaster.
 
2012-07-03 11:30:43 AM  

mr lawson: Infernalist: The mess they're enduring is one of their own choosing and careful design. No Federal agents forced it on them and no one slipped anything in under the radar. Every last bit of this was self-chosen by men of sound mind...

So, is it or is it not OKAY by True Libertarian philosophy for them to do this to their community?

Finally a good question.
Does a community have the right to commit suicide?
If so, then the argument I and Weaver have been making that they are not libertarian policies is invalid.
If not, then who should have the authority to stop them.
correct?


Exactly. If they are 'choosing' this fate by consensus, then the Federal government would be wrong to step in and help them, as they don't believe that such things should happen.

Is This Okay? That's the question posed to Libertarian thinkers. Is it alright for them to deliberately screw themselves up and NOT step in and stop them?
 
2012-07-03 11:31:41 AM  
They wanted the government to stop intruding on their lives, particularly the federal government since Ballsack HUSSEIN Zerobammey usurped power, then it's only fair we give them what they wanted and let them live by their own rugged individualist bootstraps.

Goin rogue!!!!!!
 
2012-07-03 11:32:03 AM  

Job Creator: Bloody William: GAT_00: Until people are held responsible for their own actions, this won't stop. We ALL pay for their short-sighted dumbass principles. Every single one of us. And we're going to keep paying for it. This will keep happening. The West is going to keep getting drier and turn into a tinderbox. The South will be inundated by storms and heat waves. These disasters are going to keep getting worse, and we ALL pay when cities cut everything from their government and refuse to prepare, because it's unpopular to spend money and prepare.

We can keep paying for their ignorance. We can keep saving them after the fact, which is far more expensive than decent preparations. Someone needs to tell people that your words matter. Your ACTIONS matter. This is what you want? This is what you get.

It leads to an unfortunate humanitarian dilemma. If we help them, they'll never learn. If we don't help them, they'll either die or... still not learn. We can make a point as a society or we can treat them like human beings who deserve help, but we simply can't do both. And even if we hold them as an example, there's no guarantee the example will actually process with these insane zealots. The odds of that are pretty low.


I hear you- problem is the innocents. Only 20% of these people (men, women, children) likely voted for this. The moral way to solve this is to have Obama come rolling into town personally with the bag of money and have him give a speech pointing out how government is helping, while dressing down the mayor and dignitaries who cut services that would have mitigated this disaster.


And all that would do would be to enable the stupid selfish to continue to make the same blind mistakes again later.

Oh, and curse the government for their interfering ways.
 
2012-07-03 11:32:37 AM  

dlp211: gingerjet: Philip Francis Queeg: MyRandomName: Why are you fark libs so farking retarded? Fema and national disaster funds are paid for with federal dollars. Local taxation does not figure into the equation. Stop being partisan retards. The town was not withholding federal taxes.

They cut their own local taxes leaving them unprepared for the fire and you get to make up the difference with your federal taxes.I bet you are thrilled.

In addition - they started cutting off street lights but you could pay to have them turned on.

The funny thing is that the people were paying $300 to turn on street lights, $2500 to get the water turned on in their parks, and they could have kept all that and more for a measly $200 tax raise.

The really sad thing is some Hotel Mogul showed them how the could privatize a bunch of stuff. So they did, and guys who not only had great paying jobs with benefits got laid off and wound up with the same job in the private sector getting paid less but the town didn't save any money. Instead, somebody with capital is making a boatload of money and the middle class continues to suffer.


The point was that they didn't have to contribute to streetlights or parks for poor people. They are the Galtian overlords.
 
2012-07-03 11:33:43 AM  

Job Creator: Bloody William: GAT_00: Until people are held responsible for their own actions, this won't stop. We ALL pay for their short-sighted dumbass principles. Every single one of us. And we're going to keep paying for it. This will keep happening. The West is going to keep getting drier and turn into a tinderbox. The South will be inundated by storms and heat waves. These disasters are going to keep getting worse, and we ALL pay when cities cut everything from their government and refuse to prepare, because it's unpopular to spend money and prepare.

We can keep paying for their ignorance. We can keep saving them after the fact, which is far more expensive than decent preparations. Someone needs to tell people that your words matter. Your ACTIONS matter. This is what you want? This is what you get.

It leads to an unfortunate humanitarian dilemma. If we help them, they'll never learn. If we don't help them, they'll either die or... still not learn. We can make a point as a society or we can treat them like human beings who deserve help, but we simply can't do both. And even if we hold them as an example, there's no guarantee the example will actually process with these insane zealots. The odds of that are pretty low.


I hear you- problem is the innocents. Only 20% of these people (men, women, children) likely voted for this. The moral way to solve this is to have Obama come rolling into town personally with the bag of money and have him give a speech pointing out how government is helping, while dressing down the mayor and dignitaries who cut services that would have mitigated this disaster.


That won't change anything. We need visible, painful consequences.
 
2012-07-03 11:35:00 AM  

Infernalist: That's the question posed to Libertarian thinkers.


Let's make the analogy more concise.

Does a human have the right to commit suicide?

your thoughts?
 
2012-07-03 11:35:33 AM  

dr_blasto: dlp211: gingerjet: Philip Francis Queeg: MyRandomName: Why are you fark libs so farking retarded? Fema and national disaster funds are paid for with federal dollars. Local taxation does not figure into the equation. Stop being partisan retards. The town was not withholding federal taxes.

They cut their own local taxes leaving them unprepared for the fire and you get to make up the difference with your federal taxes.I bet you are thrilled.

In addition - they started cutting off street lights but you could pay to have them turned on.

The funny thing is that the people were paying $300 to turn on street lights, $2500 to get the water turned on in their parks, and they could have kept all that and more for a measly $200 tax raise.

The really sad thing is some Hotel Mogul showed them how the could privatize a bunch of stuff. So they did, and guys who not only had great paying jobs with benefits got laid off and wound up with the same job in the private sector getting paid less but the town didn't save any money. Instead, somebody with capital is making a boatload of money and the middle class continues to suffer.

The point was that they didn't have to contribute to streetlights or parks for poor people. They are the Galtian overlords.


I wouldn't say 'poor people'. Not in their heads. In their heads, it's 'anyone but me and my neighbors'. And if that guy could have rigged it so that the lights only came on when he 'wanted' them on...Such as when 'he' was driving down the street or parking, then he'd do that in a heartbeat.

It's nothing less than simple human selfishness. It's the antithesis to 'community'. These are the people who tear communities apart for the sake of a dollar.
 
2012-07-03 11:35:48 AM  

Emrick: doyner: Land has always meant representation in our system.

That isn't true. Alaska wasn't a state for almost 100 years. They didn't have any voting members of Congress during that time.


That logic would extend to people as well. You're being obtuse. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.
 
2012-07-03 11:37:36 AM  

Diogenes: I live in Florida. Are you going to take punitive measures against me the next time we need federal hurricane aid, because my Governor and the people who voted him in are assholes?

They will get away with their asshattery and will receive aid in Colorado Springs because anything less would be inhumane.


As libertarians often say: "Choices have consequences".

Since I'm not a libertarian, I agree it would be inhumane.

/everyone is actually libertarian in some way
 
2012-07-03 11:37:48 AM  

mr lawson: Infernalist: That's the question posed to Libertarian thinkers.

Let's make the analogy more concise.

Does a human have the right to commit suicide?

your thoughts?


A human of sound mind, making an informed choice of choosing death over life? Hell yes, he has that right. In my mind, at least.

I'm not talking about making that choice in the heat of the moment of a divorce or upon going bankrupt...I'm talking about a calm deliberate choice made with no pain, mental or physical, influencing his choice.

Yes.
 
2012-07-03 11:38:01 AM  

GAT_00: OK then, do to a complete lack of other answers, I must conclude that:

1. The fake libertarians are indistinguishable from Real Libertarians
2. Real Libertarians would also go screaming for Federal Aid in a crisis, small government principles or not.

This is why you've never convinced me of anything Weaver. Because when i ask hard questions, you only dodge them or confirm what I've believed all along.


I concluded that Weaver has a more idealized version of Libertarians than what they actually are. He makes them sound like fiscally responsible Democrats.
 
2012-07-03 11:40:04 AM  

mahuika: FTA: Six of the nine candidates in last year's nonpartisan mayoral election, including the victor, Mayor Steve Bach, signed the no-tax pledge pushed by Grover Norquist
...

"Forget the fire," said the mayor, whose office has an easel with a chart depicting Colorado Springs's financial status, after a briefing on the blaze June 30. "At our current cost curve, we'll be insolvent in eight years."

Your own city is farking burning, and you want to continue to cut services without raising taxes to fix your budget?


Like Nero?

Their own arrogance is going to be their undoing. Was Greg Graffin a prophet?
 
2012-07-03 11:40:36 AM  

GAT_00: Seriously, why SHOULDN'T we hold these people to their principles? Why not make them stand up for what they believe?


It is kind of like the uninsured health care issue. As a society we cannot just let people who need medical attention die because they have no insurance or money. In this case we cannot let people be stupid or they will create a burden for all of us.
 
2012-07-03 11:40:39 AM  

Truncks1: GAT_00: OK then, do to a complete lack of other answers, I must conclude that:

1. The fake libertarians are indistinguishable from Real Libertarians
2. Real Libertarians would also go screaming for Federal Aid in a crisis, small government principles or not.

This is why you've never convinced me of anything Weaver. Because when i ask hard questions, you only dodge them or confirm what I've believed all along.

I concluded that Weaver has a more idealized version of Libertarians than what they actually are. He makes them sound like fiscally responsible Democrats.


And by their philosophy, he's okay to believe as he does. In working reality, however, he'd be dressed down and disparaged by his chosen political party for thinking as he does.

Rather like how the Log Cabin Republicans support and defend the GOP in spite of the fact that most of the GOP would love to see LC Republicans go back to Gay Island or wherever they come from.
 
2012-07-03 11:41:48 AM  

doyner: Emrick: doyner: Land has always meant representation in our system.

That isn't true. Alaska wasn't a state for almost 100 years. They didn't have any voting members of Congress during that time.

That logic would extend to people as well. You're being obtuse. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.



What logic would extend to people as well?
 
2012-07-03 11:42:19 AM  

dlp211: NPR's: This American Life: Act 3 Colorado Springs (Audio)
Link

NPR's: This American Life: Full Show (Transcript)
Link

JAN MARTIN: "And a gentleman came up to me and actually thanked me for the adopt a street light program. He had just written a check to the city for $300 to turn all the street lights back on in his neighborhood. And I did remind him that for $200 if he had supported the tax initiative, we could have had not only streetlights, but parks and firemen and swimming pools and community centers. That by combining our resources, we as a community can actually accomplish more than we as individuals."

JAN MARTIN: "He said he would never support a tax increase."


The end of that show left a "what is going to happen in the end, will this be successful?" question hanging in the air. I guess we know.
 
2012-07-03 11:42:55 AM  
These people are going to ask for a federally mandated wealth distribution program ...errr FEMA Aid .... in which people who voluntarily decided to live in the middle of the forest are going to ask everyone else to foot the bill for cleanup after a forest fire takes place?

This sounds straight out of the Marxist handbook to me.

Can I voluntarily decide not to give this "FEMA Aid" to these Galtians, or is this money taken from me by gunpoint?
 
2012-07-03 11:43:10 AM  
/hands his debate card to Infernalist
//seem to be on the same wavelength, and I haz white chocolate coffee cake to start slicing
 
2012-07-03 11:43:17 AM  

monoski: GAT_00: Seriously, why SHOULDN'T we hold these people to their principles? Why not make them stand up for what they believe?

It is kind of like the uninsured health care issue. As a society we cannot just let people who need medical attention die because they have no insurance or money. In this case we cannot let people be stupid or they will create a burden for all of us.


But, that would infringe upon our freedoms...Or so the flow of thought goes...

At which point do the needs and the importance of the individual become less important than the actions and needs of the whole nation? The whole state? The whole city?
 
2012-07-03 11:45:27 AM  

Emrick: doyner: Emrick: doyner: Land has always meant representation in our system.

That isn't true. Alaska wasn't a state for almost 100 years. They didn't have any voting members of Congress during that time.

That logic would extend to people as well. You're being obtuse. Your post is bad and you should feel bad.


What logic would extend to people as well?


That the people living in Alaska then wouldn't be represented. I'm sayint that the umbrella of representation applies to land and people simultaneously.
 
2012-07-03 11:45:43 AM  

Infernalist: A human of sound mind, making an informed choice of choosing death over life? Hell yes, he has that right. In my mind, at least.

I'm not talking about making that choice in the heat of the moment of a divorce or upon going bankrupt...I'm talking about a calm deliberate choice made with no pain, mental or physical, influencing his choice.

Yes.


As stated, this is an analogy.
So do you believe that the community should have the right to commit suicide like they did?

/i'm not trying to be obtuse. it was an interesting question
 
2012-07-03 11:46:52 AM  

Truncks1: GAT_00: OK then, do to a complete lack of other answers, I must conclude that:

1. The fake libertarians are indistinguishable from Real Libertarians
2. Real Libertarians would also go screaming for Federal Aid in a crisis, small government principles or not.

This is why you've never convinced me of anything Weaver. Because when i ask hard questions, you only dodge them or confirm what I've believed all along.

I concluded that Weaver has a more idealized version of Libertarians than what they actually are. He makes them sound like fiscally responsible Democrats.


No, I think Weaver is in denial about what he believes and wants to believe. He is arguing from a "No True Scottsman" position even though what the people of CS did is exactly in line with Libertarian ideals, and when they fail they will ask the Federal Government for a bailout.
 
2012-07-03 11:49:27 AM  
FTFA: "Six of the nine candidates in last year's nonpartisan mayoral election, including the victor, Mayor Steve Bach, signed the no-tax pledge pushed by Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform, according to the Colorado Springs Gazette.

Richard Skorman, one candidate who didn't, was flooded with angry e-mails after saying in a debate why he opposed such a pledge. What, he asked, if the city got hit by a major wildfire?"


Let me now make a prediction, the libertarian leaders will take demand federal money and blame the problems on liberals (and it will work).
 
2012-07-03 11:49:29 AM  

BunkoSquad: Give them the federal money, but make them write "SOMETIMES TAXES PAY FOR THINGS THAT HELP PEOPLE" on a chalkboard 1000 times.


Better yet, make them place a bronze placard on every building and in every area the federal government has helped rebuild stating "Big Government at Work."
 
2012-07-03 11:50:16 AM  
Libertarianism always looks like a great idea from the perspective of the textbook.
 
2012-07-03 11:50:23 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com

Damn you federal government and your fire-killing regulations
 
2012-07-03 11:52:00 AM  

GAT_00: Weaver95: GAT_00: liam76: dr_blasto: It is possible that Colorado Springs goes full Detroit. You never go full Detroit

I don't think that is going to happen, but for some reason this line cracked me up...


Weaver95: GAT_00:
You just totally farking dodged the hard questions to bash me.

no, I am trying to break through that pig stubborn prejudice you've got towards libertarians. These people ARE NOT libertarian.

how are the policies they enacted wrt public services not libertarian? What would you, as a libertarian, done with givent he choice of more taxes or cutting back on public services?

He's not answering that question because he knows damn well for all his supposed small government beliefs he'd run to the Feds and demand help.

you BOTH keep changing the subject. i'm still trying to get across the fact that these people ARE NOT libertarians. they're prosperity gospel heretics.

And I asked, if they aren't libertarian, what would you, a Real Libertarian, do differently as Mayor? It's not switching the subject if I'm making the point that they really are libertarians because I don't think you'd do anything different.


Libertarianism can never fail, it can only be failed.
 
2012-07-03 11:52:23 AM  

mr lawson: Infernalist: A human of sound mind, making an informed choice of choosing death over life? Hell yes, he has that right. In my mind, at least.

I'm not talking about making that choice in the heat of the moment of a divorce or upon going bankrupt...I'm talking about a calm deliberate choice made with no pain, mental or physical, influencing his choice.

Yes.

As stated, this is an analogy.
So do you believe that the community should have the right to commit suicide like they did?

/i'm not trying to be obtuse. it was an interesting question


Do I believe they have that right? Sure. I think they're idiots, but they have the right to lead their community down into ruin.

If the voters are keeping them in power in spite of the ruin they're inflicting upon the community, then that's the will of the people of the region and they have the right to continue sticking their collective face into the metal fan of reality as much as they want.

And with that choice, I think they've waived the right to Federal aid for when that ruin comes down upon them. It's one thing to have your town engulfed in flames by a forest fire, and it's another thing entirely to build that town in the middle of the forest, and neglect your forest service to the point of it being nearly criminal.

Are there people there who don't agree with it and are appalled and upset and horrified at what's happening around them? Yep. I don't doubt it a bit.

I'm also sure that there are rational secular thinkers who live in Kansas and hate it.

I'm also sure that there are tolerant friendly welcoming Christians who live there too and hate it just as much.

And I know for a fact that there are deep-blue Democrats living in Texas and hate it horribly.

We all make our choices and we live with em.
 
2012-07-03 11:52:24 AM  

Infernalist: So, the Libertarian response to Colorado Springs' current state of near-ruin would be "Well, if that's how you guys want to do things, okay."

Am I reading that right?


Well, in all fairness, as a leftie who is tired of anti-government red states begging for government money, that's my response to Colorado Springs' situation as well.
 
2012-07-03 11:53:07 AM  

doyner: That the people living in Alaska then wouldn't be represented. I'm sayint that the umbrella of representation applies to land and people simultaneously.


I still don't follow you. The original point was that small population states have more political power because they are over-represented in the Senate. After I agreed with that point you mentioned that "Land has always meant representation in our system". I gave an example that shows that statement isn't true. Now you are moving the goalposts to say something else. What is your point exactly?
 
2012-07-03 11:53:18 AM  

dlp211: He is arguing from a "No True Scottsman" position even though what the people of CS did is exactly in line with Libertarian ideals, and when they fail they will ask the Federal Government for a bailout.


Are you arguing the Libertarian ideals, if they fail, include asking the Federal Government for a bailout?
 
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