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(Politico)   Remember the 13-year-old kid at CPAC 2009 who was going to be the conservative voice for a new generation? Well, he grew up and started thinking for himself. Then guess what happened   (politico.com) divider line 290
    More: Obvious, CPAC, democratic convention, pendulum, substantive, conservative talk, Newt Gingrich, blurbs, Jonathan Krohn  
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11766 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Jul 2012 at 6:22 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-02 03:45:07 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-02 03:48:29 PM  
He fixes the cable?
 
2012-07-02 03:48:48 PM  
Maher was actually talking about that kid a couple weeks ago on Real Time. Showed a clip of the speech. I was certain the kid would be even more hardcore now

/Proved wrong
 
2012-07-02 03:55:40 PM  
well good for him.
 
2012-07-02 03:57:53 PM  
It was just me saying things I had heard so long from people I thought were interesting and just came to believe for some reason, without really understanding it.

Which is pretty much what we thought it was.
 
2012-07-02 04:06:30 PM  
Sounds like a smart kid with an inquisitive mind. Whatever he does in life, I hope he keeps questioning what he's told.
 
2012-07-02 04:09:03 PM  
 
2012-07-02 04:11:52 PM  
He discovered girls?

/he couldn't fap to Bill O'Reilly forever.
 
2012-07-02 04:16:39 PM  
Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.
 
2012-07-02 04:19:19 PM  
His balls dropped?
 
2012-07-02 04:21:39 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.


Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.
 
2012-07-02 04:25:57 PM  
So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.
 
2012-07-02 04:26:28 PM  

kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.


some NEVER develop critical thinking skills. That's part of the problem.
 
2012-07-02 04:27:52 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


This.
 
2012-07-02 04:30:33 PM  

kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.


I was the opposite, myself. I grew up in a suburb of Portland, OR, one of the most liberal cities in the country. Environmentalism especially was big when I was growing up (the Northern Spotted Owl vs. logging debate raged during my youth). I only started my journey towards conservatism around 17 or so. I got a bit extreme about my views and also very vocal. Pissed off some people, impressed some others. Nowadays, my views have softened a bit (I lean more Libertarian than I used to) and I don't get all that vocal about it, having learned some tact.
 
2012-07-02 04:31:03 PM  
Someone with the Obama campaign should get him an invitation to address the Democratic National Convention, just to see what happens.
 
2012-07-02 04:32:07 PM  
What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?
 
2012-07-02 04:36:56 PM  

abb3w: Someone with the Obama campaign should get him an invitation to address the Democratic National Convention, just to see what happens.


No. There's no reason either side needs to exploit a child for political gain.
 
2012-07-02 04:41:34 PM  

Ambivalence: some NEVER develop critical thinking skills. That's part of the problem.


Or, in Texas, part of the solution.
 
2012-07-02 04:42:28 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.
 
2012-07-02 04:43:11 PM  
Most of today's Republicans have the maturity of a 12 year old, so it makes sense that this kid has gotten over it.
 
2012-07-02 04:44:53 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.


Well, then he should see an analrapist.
 
2012-07-02 04:50:04 PM  

BKITU: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.

Well, then he should see an analrapist.


I'd be satisfied if he just blue himself instead.
 
2012-07-02 05:07:16 PM  

kid_icarus: Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.


And that's why I always laugh at the Idiocracy bellringers. You aren't defined by your parents or your background. You can choose to be whomever you want.
 
2012-07-02 05:11:41 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: BKITU: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.

Well, then he should see an analrapist.

I'd be satisfied if he just blue himself instead.


Away. You forgot to say "away."
 
2012-07-02 05:18:07 PM  

kronicfeld: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: BKITU: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.

Well, then he should see an analrapist.

I'd be satisfied if he just blue himself instead.

Away. You forgot to say "away."


Okay, you know what you do, Angry Drunk Bureaucrat? You buy yourself a tape recorder, you just record yourself for a whole day. I think you're going to be surprised at some of your phrasing.
 
2012-07-02 05:20:41 PM  
"I think it was naive," Krohn now says of the speech. "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time.... I live in Georgia. We're inundated with conservative talk in Georgia.... The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

Also: 17.
 
2012-07-02 05:21:20 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


Came to say this.

GN's tax plan was something he came up with at 12, right?
 
2012-07-02 05:22:22 PM  
And no, I don't remember this kid, CPAC 2009, or most of 2009 for that matter.
 
2012-07-02 05:22:57 PM  

simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?


Because thinking for yourself and questioning your surroundings is scary.

Lots of people really like their bubbles - a safe place where they can convince themselves that they've got it all figured out, and then tune their TV to a station that consistently reinforces that belief. Willful, blissful ignorance seems like it would probably be a very comfortable way to exist. Glad to see this kid was able to break out of that.
 
2012-07-02 05:28:50 PM  
*cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative
 
2012-07-02 05:29:28 PM  
He thinks the government should be out of the business of defining marriage and that the individual mandate is a good idea.

He IS a conservative - he's just one from back when conservatives weren't pointlessly hostile idiots with no ideas no data and no connection to reality.
 
2012-07-02 06:25:06 PM  
Praise the Lord. The boy has risen!
 
2012-07-02 06:26:17 PM  
FTFA: "You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

I wonder what Grover Norquist would think of this kid.
 
2012-07-02 06:27:45 PM  
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

This. The GOP is all about pretending complex ideas can be solved by simple bumper sticker dogma.
 
2012-07-02 06:28:02 PM  

GleeUnit: simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?

Because thinking for yourself and questioning your surroundings is scary.

Lots of people really like their bubbles - a safe place where they can convince themselves that they've got it all figured out, and then tune their TV to a station that consistently reinforces that belief. Willful, blissful ignorance seems like it would probably be a very comfortable way to exist. Glad to see this kid was able to break out of that.


Aye. The thought that perhaps everything you knew was wrong, everything you'd been taught was incorrect.. that's goddamn TERRIFYING for a lot of people. So they refuse to acknowledge it as a possibility.
 
2012-07-02 06:28:11 PM  
Flip flopper
 
2012-07-02 06:28:46 PM  

chimp_ninja: kronicfeld: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: BKITU: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.

Well, then he should see an analrapist.

I'd be satisfied if he just blue himself instead.

Away. You forgot to say "away."

Okay, you know what you do, Angry Drunk Bureaucrat? You buy yourself a tape recorder, you just record yourself for a whole day. I think you're going to be surprised at some of your phrasing.


Oh chimp_ninja, you blow hard.
 
2012-07-02 06:29:12 PM  
Great, another RINO
 
2012-07-02 06:29:33 PM  

tallguywithglasseson: "I think it was naive," Krohn now says of the speech. "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time.... I live in Georgia. We're inundated with conservative talk in Georgia.... The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

Also: 17.


Also: 20, 30...

Let's face it, none of us are the same as when we were 17. Hell, I was a hardcore communist when I was 19, it was the thing to do. I look back now and laugh my ass off at how idealistic I was then. It's only if your political outlook DOESN'T evolve that you've got issues.

Note that evolution takes some time. Having a different opinion yesterday than you do today (lookin at you, Mittens) is not the same thing.
 
2012-07-02 06:29:37 PM  

susansto-helit: Sounds like a smart kid with an inquisitive mind. Whatever he does in life, I hope he keeps questioning what he's told.


As long as he keeps moving to the left.
 
2012-07-02 06:30:54 PM  

Felgraf: GleeUnit: simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?

Because thinking for yourself and questioning your surroundings is scary.

Lots of people really like their bubbles - a safe place where they can convince themselves that they've got it all figured out, and then tune their TV to a station that consistently reinforces that belief. Willful, blissful ignorance seems like it would probably be a very comfortable way to exist. Glad to see this kid was able to break out of that.

Aye. The thought that perhaps everything you knew was wrong, everything you'd been taught was incorrect.. that's goddamn TERRIFYING for a lot of people. So they refuse to acknowledge it as a possibility.


That truly goes for BOTH sides.
/really scary to think of it.
 
2012-07-02 06:30:56 PM  
Krohn won't go so far as to say he's liberal, in part because his move away from conservatism was a move away from ideological boxes in general.

"I want to be Jonathan Krohn," he said, "and I'm tired of being an ideology, and it's not fun and it gets boring and it's not who we are as individuals."

+1, kid. Maybe, later on, you really will develop a long-lasting affinity for one side or the other, but you recognize now that you can take your time and not parrot things from the old folk.
 
2012-07-02 06:31:47 PM  
no, i have no idea who he is
 
2012-07-02 06:32:59 PM  
"he's hoping to spend his time at NYU studying philosophy and filmmaking"

sounds like his switch to liberalism was just a matter of self-preservation for when he is destitute ;)
 
2012-07-02 06:33:04 PM  
This is obviously the result of bad parenting. He obviously needs to spend more time contemplating the philosophical import of aborted fetuses. And, of course, more spankings.
 
2012-07-02 06:34:01 PM  
So you are saying that a selfish white entitled misogynistic philosophy appeals to a white 13 year old boy? Color me shocked. Then when he grew up and learned there are consequences with damn the poor he wised up? Wish more of the brainwashed conservative kids would.
 
2012-07-02 06:35:03 PM  

Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative


My ex is an ex-conservative.

/Me... never was. Ok. conservation of mass I could get behind.
 
2012-07-02 06:35:35 PM  

Gyrfalcon: tallguywithglasseson: "I think it was naive," Krohn now says of the speech. "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time.... I live in Georgia. We're inundated with conservative talk in Georgia.... The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

Also: 17.

Also: 20, 30...

Let's face it, none of us are the same as when we were 17. Hell, I was a hardcore communist when I was 19, it was the thing to do. I look back now and laugh my ass off at how idealistic I was then. It's only if your political outlook DOESN'T evolve that you've got issues.

Note that evolution takes some time. Having a different opinion yesterday than you do today (lookin at you, Mittens) is not the same thing.


I'd say the reason why you changed your mind and evolved your position is the most important way to distinguish between genuine evolution and pandering.
 
2012-07-02 06:36:26 PM  

DKinMN: susansto-helit: Sounds like a smart kid with an inquisitive mind. Whatever he does in life, I hope he keeps questioning what he's told.

As long as he keeps moving to the left.


Taking time off from guarding the underside of that bridge, are we?
 
2012-07-02 06:37:26 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


NAILED. IT.
 
2012-07-02 06:38:17 PM  

mr lawson: That truly goes for BOTH sides.


Yes it does. But only one side equates the concept of ignorance to a state of grace.

/which side is left as an exercise to the reader
 
2012-07-02 06:40:52 PM  

mr lawson: Felgraf: GleeUnit: simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?

Because thinking for yourself and questioning your surroundings is scary.

Lots of people really like their bubbles - a safe place where they can convince themselves that they've got it all figured out, and then tune their TV to a station that consistently reinforces that belief. Willful, blissful ignorance seems like it would probably be a very comfortable way to exist. Glad to see this kid was able to break out of that.

Aye. The thought that perhaps everything you knew was wrong, everything you'd been taught was incorrect.. that's goddamn TERRIFYING for a lot of people. So they refuse to acknowledge it as a possibility.

That truly goes for BOTH sides.
/really scary to think of it.


Yes, but to be fair, one side doesn't have a branch that said they wanted to outlaw teaching critical thinking.
 
2012-07-02 06:40:54 PM  

kid_icarus: He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own.


Texas bravely decided to tackle this issue head on, and for good reason: the kid was simply parroting what he had been immersed with.

It's a sad state of affairs when your ethical foundation hinges upon the "well it makes sense if you just don't think about it" line of reasoning. Even sadder when you openly recognize that this foundation requires such an uncritical dogma.
 
Bf+
2012-07-02 06:41:12 PM  
He turned 14?
Mentally, I mean...
 
2012-07-02 06:41:46 PM  
So it's like the opposite of coming out of the closet?
 
2012-07-02 06:43:10 PM  

Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative


Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.
 
2012-07-02 06:43:39 PM  
That's nice and all, but the only difference between a dipshiat 13 year old boy and a dipshiat 17 year old boy is four years.
 
2012-07-02 06:44:47 PM  

propasaurus: It was just me saying things I had heard so long from people I thought were interesting and just came to believe for some reason, without really understanding it.

Which is pretty much what we thought it was.


Which is exactly why Conservatives are attacking public education.
 
2012-07-02 06:46:03 PM  
Empathy and maturity are the eternal banes of the G.O.P.
 
2012-07-02 06:47:02 PM  

kid_icarus: He discovered girls?

/he couldn't fap to Bill O'Reilly forever.


www.theculturewatch.com

"But try and fap to this, it takes forever. Can't explain that."
 
2012-07-02 06:47:53 PM  
As someone who would have also defined himself as "conservative" at 13, (primarily because I had absorbed it from the culture I was immersed in,) I say "kudos."

One thing I think I like about this particular interview is the way in which Johnathan Krohn distances himself from his past stance without making it sound like he's arrived at any kind of be-all-end-all philosophy; When you publicly commit to an overly specified set of viewpoints, political or otherwise, it can be difficult to change without losing face. It sounds like there is a level at which he realized that the error his 13-year-old self made was failure to give himself room to change as much as it was parroting things his family and church were saying.

I can't fault young people people for having strong opinions, but I do cringe when people swear up and down that they'll "always believe" something.
 
2012-07-02 06:49:16 PM  
Maybe the saddest thing is that The Right glommed onto this kid and pushed him into prominence--a 13 year old kid--tell us, o wise one, tell us the Conservative Gospel. Give us speeches. Sell us your books.

Desperate.
 
2012-07-02 06:49:22 PM  

Serious Black: Gyrfalcon: tallguywithglasseson: "I think it was naive," Krohn now says of the speech. "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time.... I live in Georgia. We're inundated with conservative talk in Georgia.... The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

Also: 17.

Also: 20, 30...

Let's face it, none of us are the same as when we were 17. Hell, I was a hardcore communist when I was 19, it was the thing to do. I look back now and laugh my ass off at how idealistic I was then. It's only if your political outlook DOESN'T evolve that you've got issues.

Note that evolution takes some time. Having a different opinion yesterday than you do today (lookin at you, Mittens) is not the same thing.

I'd say the reason why you changed your mind and evolved your position is the most important way to distinguish between genuine evolution and pandering.


No argument here.
 
2012-07-02 06:50:23 PM  

ArkAngel: kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.

I was the opposite, myself. I grew up in a suburb of Portland, OR, one of the most liberal cities in the country. Environmentalism especially was big when I was growing up (the Northern Spotted Owl vs. logging debate raged during my youth). I only started my journey towards conservatism around 17 or so. I got a bit extreme about my views and also very vocal. Pissed off some people, impressed some others. Nowadays, my views have softened a bit (I lean more Libertarian than I used to) and I don't get all that vocal about it, having learned some tact.


It's amazing that you could form a political stance based on your opinion to a relatively minor fringe issue. I'm sure you're much more mature now though, right?
 
2012-07-02 06:50:48 PM  
And this, right here, sums up my problem with children as spokespeople.

Children do not have fully-formed opinions. They don't know what they're talking about. Their views are evolving. That's fine and that's how it's supposed to be, but once someone's on camera, that is forever. Branding a person with an opinion that they held in childhood is just cruel.

/Let kids succeed, but don't think that they're child messiahs. This 'from the mouths of babes' bullshiat is just damaging them.
 
2012-07-02 06:53:23 PM  

NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.


I wouldn't be so certain about that. Seems younger voters may be starting to skew right. Something about coming of age in a recession.

Pres. Obama's Weakening Grip on Young Voters Could Cost Him Election
 
2012-07-02 06:55:33 PM  

Serious Black: Norquist


I came in to say essentially this, so, THIS.

"It wasn't me thinking. It was just me saying things I had heard so long from people I thought were interesting and just came to believe for some reason, without really understanding it. I understood it enough to talk about it but not really enough to have a conversation about it."

This is more or less how I went from being a Republican to whatever it is I am now.
 
2012-07-02 06:56:37 PM  
They got to him man, they got to him. Somebody got to him and threatened someone he loves, probably his family. It's the same thing they did to Justice Roberts man, and it works every farking time. Conservatives have no real defense against this kind of attack - I mean they're the party of Family Values, so of course they value their families! God damn it I hate it when the libs do this to fine upstanding Conservative leaders.

/I hear Victoria Jackson is next
 
2012-07-02 06:58:35 PM  

fusillade762: NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.

I wouldn't be so certain about that. Seems younger voters may be starting to skew right. Something about coming of age in a recession.

Pres. Obama's Weakening Grip on Young Voters Could Cost Him Election


Kids too young to remember what got us into this mess in the first place?
 
2012-07-02 06:59:23 PM  

PsiChick: And this, right here, sums up my problem with children as spokespeople.

Children do not have fully-formed opinions. They don't know what they're talking about. Their views are evolving. That's fine and that's how it's supposed to be, but once someone's on camera, that is forever. Branding a person with an opinion that they held in childhood is just cruel.

/Let kids succeed, but don't think that they're child messiahs. This 'from the mouths of babes' bullshiat is just damaging them.


I cringe every time I see kids at liberal rallies and events. Asshole parents making us look bad.

My parents were (and often still are) pretty mum with their politics and religious beliefs specifically because they wanted to let me make up my own mind. I'm eternally grateful for that.
 
2012-07-02 07:00:32 PM  

Serious Black: FTFA: "You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

I wonder what Grover Norquist would think of this kid.


he's obviously bowed to peer pressure and is probably taking drugs?
 
2012-07-02 07:00:34 PM  

Pincy: propasaurus: It was just me saying things I had heard so long from people I thought were interesting and just came to believe for some reason, without really understanding it.

Which is pretty much what we thought it was.

Which is exactly why Conservatives are attacking public education.


That's the really scary part for me. George Carlin put it a lot more eloquently than I could, but they don't want people to learn to think for themselves. They want to breed a generation of workers with just enough cognitive capacity to feed the materials into the machine that makes the widgets, to follow orders, and potentially carry a rifle. The Texas GOP pretty much blatantly said just that last week. It's mind-boggling.
 
2012-07-02 07:00:42 PM  

fusillade762: I wouldn't be so certain about that. Seems younger voters may be starting to skew right. Something about coming of age in a recession.

Pres. Obama's Weakening Grip on Young Voters Could Cost Him Election


The best part of that article is where it contradicts its own premise.
 
2012-07-02 07:01:23 PM  

Ambivalence: kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.

some NEVER develop critical thinking skills. That's part of the problem.


Why do you think the republicans are coming out against critical thinking skills? This kid is a perfect example of the reason.
 
2012-07-02 07:02:05 PM  

JerseyTim: He fixes the cable?


Don't be fatuous.
 
2012-07-02 07:04:21 PM  
If everyone were so inquisitive and willing to meaningfully reflect on their beliefs, fox news would be a lot less influential.
 
2012-07-02 07:07:03 PM  
images.politico.comwp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-07-02 07:07:36 PM  

fusillade762: NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.

I wouldn't be so certain about that. Seems younger voters may be starting to skew right. Something about coming of age in a recession.

Pres. Obama's Weakening Grip on Young Voters Could Cost Him Election


So, reading this article, I found a bunch of anecdotal interviews and one cited poll which found that Obama is dominating among one group of youths slightly less than among the other groups of young voters. Oh and that group, which is apparently an 'opportunity for Romney,' is 18-24 year olds who don't vote anyways.
 
2012-07-02 07:08:55 PM  
Is there really a need for a thread whenever someone switches party? This isn't a game of red rover.
 
2012-07-02 07:09:31 PM  
He got laid by one of his teachers and realized that there's more to life than trying to get rich while making everyone else's lives as miserable as possible?
 
2012-07-02 07:10:00 PM  
p.twimg.com
 
2012-07-02 07:10:53 PM  
The New Yorker? Isn't that a gateway drug to secular humanitarianism? He'll be gay married and pregnant with-in two years.
 
2012-07-02 07:11:42 PM  
So...they're not going to do a follow up with him this year?
 
2012-07-02 07:11:46 PM  

ArkAngel: kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.

I was the opposite, myself. I grew up in a suburb of Portland, OR, one of the most liberal cities in the country. Environmentalism especially was big when I was growing up (the Northern Spotted Owl vs. logging debate raged during my youth). I only started my journey towards conservatism around 17 or so. I got a bit extreme about my views and also very vocal. Pissed off some people, impressed some others. Nowadays, my views have softened a bit (I lean more Libertarian than I used to) and I don't get all that vocal about it, having learned some tact.


I went a similar route as you. I grew up in a social democrat household, even called myself a socialist for a while. But as I grew older I saw government throwing huge amounts of money at every problem, and nothing getting better, as well as government intruding into private matters. I swung towards the right (probably not as far as you), then eventually settled on a centrist stance (also leaning libertarian). It's none of my business who marries whom, whether a woman wants an abortion, or if they prefer a martini or a joint after work. But I also don't want my money thrown down the black hole of social programs that haven't fixed any problems. I'm not an evil bastard, so I don't want to cut off aid to single moms (or dads) who are struggling to feed their kids, but I also don't like those (rare) baby factories who see welfare as their career.
 
2012-07-02 07:15:58 PM  
Krohn is bucking the received wisdom that people become more conservative as they get older, a shift he attributes partly to philosophy.

Actually, you don't start getting liberal tendencies until you get into high school. Then maybe after you've partied your 20s away you start to become more conservative.

At least, that's the received wisdom. So what this kid did...not so much.
 
2012-07-02 07:19:45 PM  
Wait, so he was 13 when he gave that speech, and he's 17 now and has gotten better, but the speech was given in 2010, so...?
 
2012-07-02 07:20:47 PM  

kid_icarus: He discovered girls?


img228.imageshack.us
 
2012-07-02 07:21:54 PM  
And when he is 30, he will be a conservative again.
 
2012-07-02 07:23:22 PM  
FTFA: His favorite TV shows? "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78068.html#ixzz1zVi6dh16



THEIR YOU HAVE IT FOLKS! LIBERAL INDOKTRE INDOCTRENA LIBERAL BRAINWASHING!
 
2012-07-02 07:24:03 PM  

simsite9:

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?


That's a feature of our educational system, not a bug.
 
2012-07-02 07:27:23 PM  
Wittgenstein!!! Wont someone stop him before he philosophies again!
 
2012-07-02 07:27:47 PM  
You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13.

www.nndb.com
 
2012-07-02 07:30:28 PM  

MyRandomName: Is there really a need for a thread whenever someone switches party? This isn't a game of red rover.


I don't know, how many 13 year olds are thrust into the limelight as a spokesperson for their political party?
 
2012-07-02 07:31:08 PM  
What he says about being 13 and not being informed enough to form a political opinion is true, but can't the same be said at the age he's at now? I mean, at 17, you're still not directly impacted by most of what the government does yet. Give him a few years, when he's paying his own bills, using services his taxes go to, etc. I'm not saying he's wrong and will change his mind again, I'm just saying it's naive to think a teenager, no matter what the age, is exposed to enough to form an informed opinion about such things.
 
2012-07-02 07:31:38 PM  

jaylectricity: Krohn is bucking the received wisdom that people become more conservative as they get older, a shift he attributes partly to philosophy.

Actually, you don't start getting liberal tendencies until you get into high school. Then maybe after you've partied your 20s away you start to become more conservative.

At least, that's the received wisdom. So what this kid did...not so much.


I would consider myself more conservative than I was a decade ago. All that means is I have to pay more attention to the Democratic party primaries.
 
2012-07-02 07:34:42 PM  
I defined myself as a Conservative at age 13 too. I shudder to think what I would have sounded like had someone been foolish enough to give me a national stage.

This kid sounds awesome, and like he's turning into someone it would be cool to know. Good for him.
 
2012-07-02 07:35:33 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This kid sounds awesome, and like he's turning into someone it would be cool to know. Good for him.


I feel sorry for him. His life is going to be one big YouTube comment thread from now on.
 
2012-07-02 07:36:05 PM  

Umeraken Ideut: What he says about being 13 and not being informed enough to form a political opinion is true, but can't the same be said at the age he's at now? I mean, at 17, you're still not directly impacted by most of what the government does yet. Give him a few years, when he's paying his own bills, using services his taxes go to, etc. I'm not saying he's wrong and will change his mind again, I'm just saying it's naive to think a teenager, no matter what the age, is exposed to enough to form an informed opinion about such things.


Which is probably why he's staying away from labels and parties for now. Smart kid.
 
2012-07-02 07:37:23 PM  
Caught the conservative bug from about age 14 into my mid-20's. Then I got a dose of what the real world is actually like, and decided that maybe every issue can't be fully explained by neat little talking points and invoking the founding fathers.

The saddest part is that the two conservative causes I held on to were Term Limits and a balanced budget. They both have been abandoned by the party (balancing the budget gets some play when the democrats have the reins, but we can't really count that.)
 
2012-07-02 07:37:48 PM  

kid_icarus: He discovered girls?


He discovered guys.
 
2012-07-02 07:40:05 PM  

Tigger: He thinks the government should be out of the business of defining marriage


As long as the government is tying benefits to marriage, then they should be in the business of defining marriage. If you don't want the government defining marriage, then get government completely out of the business of marriage.
 
2012-07-02 07:40:09 PM  
Got there five years sooner than I did. Good for him.
 
2012-07-02 07:42:18 PM  

gingerjet: kid_icarus: He discovered girls?

He discovered guys.


What, his stance wasn't wide enough for the GOP?
 
2012-07-02 07:42:55 PM  

Corvus: "The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

This. The GOP is all about pretending complex ideas can be solved by simple bumper sticker dogma.


The GOP is all about pretending ineffectual solutions to complex ideas can be solved sold by simple bumper sticker dogma.

FTFY
 
2012-07-02 07:45:49 PM  

simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?


Perhaps for the same reason that an equally large percentage of the population consider high school to be the highlight of their lives.
 
2012-07-02 07:45:53 PM  

Umeraken Ideut: I mean, at 17, you're still not directly impacted by most of what the government does yet.


As someone who went to chronically underfunded public schools in an extremely wealthy area, I'm going to have to call bullshiat on that one.
 
2012-07-02 07:51:04 PM  
Attention conservative hacks:

Krohn said that family and friends noted "all of the opportunities" available to him in the world of politics, but giving that up "didn't faze me because I really didn't want to do anything that would compromise my beliefs as an individual."
 
2012-07-02 07:51:19 PM  
If you're a conservative when you're young, you have no heart. If you're a conservative when you're old, you have no brain.
 
2012-07-02 07:53:47 PM  
Well, good for him. My brain didn't turn on until my early 20s. So as far as I'm concerned he's ahead of the game
 
2012-07-02 07:53:58 PM  
Clearly he was having a hard time getting laid. He'll wise up once he get married (i.e. no hope of getting laid ever again).
 
2012-07-02 07:54:01 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: If you're a conservative when you're young, you have no heart. If you're a conservative when you're old, you have no brain.you just might be a redneck

 
2012-07-02 07:57:40 PM  
I was like this kid too. Growing up, I was a conservative due to Michael P Keaton and Family Ties.
 
2012-07-02 08:00:55 PM  

simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?


Bell curve.
 
2012-07-02 08:01:15 PM  
FTFA: "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time."

That just about sums up the entirety of conservative ideology for all time. I don't mean "American Conservatism." I mean anything conservative. The Mayans had it, and the Persians had it, and the Greeks and Romans, too. Every failed civilization had exactly one thing in common prior to the downfall: no-holds-barred conservatism.

The quickest and most direct method for the destruction of a nation is to entrust its future to conservatives.

/correct thread this time, sigh
 
2012-07-02 08:05:06 PM  

NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.



All true, but this generation is too much groupthink mentality, too obsessed with entertainment, hero/star worship, and cares more about tv shows or movies than keeping up with basic politics and voting in elections.

They also don't watch much news, read non-fiction books, or do anything else to stay relevant in world affairs, not to mention their test scores and knowledge is atrocious.
 
2012-07-02 08:05:26 PM  

TommyDeuce: They got to him man, they got to him.


Max: Fritz! Fritz, get up for God's sake! Get up! They've killed Fritz! They've killed Fritz! Those lousy stinking yellow fairies! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin! Those despicable animal warmongers! They've killed Fritz! Take that! Take this! Take that, you green slime! You black hearted, short, bow-legged...
Fritz: Max! Max, I'm okay! I'm okay max. Just a scratch. Look I'm all right.
Max: Oh. Oh, damn. There you go again, stepping on my lines, raining on my parade, costing me medals. Oh, damn.
[Accidentally shoots Fritz]
Max: Ohh. Oh, Fritz? Fritz, get up for God's sake! Get up! They've killed Fritz! They've killed Fritz! Those lousy stinking yellow fairies! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin! Take that! Take that! They killed Fritz!
 
2012-07-02 08:09:03 PM  
So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.
 
2012-07-02 08:10:13 PM  

mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.


So vote Republican...
 
2012-07-02 08:10:42 PM  

mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.


"both sidez are teh badz...." How unique.
 
2012-07-02 08:17:38 PM  
When I was 13 I was super conservative too. Turns out I was just angry that I couldn't get any girls and wasn't invited to cool parties with drugs and alcohol so I wanted to pretend I was morally superior to my peers.
 
2012-07-02 08:19:02 PM  

Propain_az: And when he is 30, he will be a conservative again.



That's only if he's a bitter poor or lower middle class hack with no real education who thinks the world and government owe him something and who thinks everyone should make less than him. Just like all Fark libertarians.
 
2012-07-02 08:20:30 PM  

OgreMagi: But I also don't want my money thrown down the black hole of social programs that haven't fixed any problems. I'm not an evil bastard, so I don't want to cut off aid to single moms (or dads) who are struggling to feed their kids, but I also don't like those (rare) baby factories who see welfare as their career.


What's your solution then that doesn't involve spending more money? If you cut welfare programs then they these programs will become worse at getting help to the people who need.

Welfare isn't designed to solve poverty or unemployment, that is well beyond the reach the program (and in most states cash assistance has been capped at least since Bill Clinton reformed the program). The different welfare programs are meant to keep people are meant to give people who have fallen through the cracks the basic necessities of survival while being uncomfortable enough that nobody with other options chooses to be on it, and which they do.

/I made a whole post about working a volunteer science GED teacher and seeing all the people with larger problems falling through the cracks that were beyond my help, but my computer ate my post and I don't feel like typing it all out again.
 
2012-07-02 08:22:50 PM  

Gwyrddu: The different welfare programs are meant to give people who have fallen through the cracks the basic necessities of survival while being uncomfortable enough that nobody with other options chooses to be on it. On that basis welfare succeeds, and if you expect it do more than that it would require more money


FTFM
 
2012-07-02 08:24:51 PM  

MyRandomName: Is there really a need for a thread whenever someone switches party? This isn't a game of red rover.


Well, that someone was a 13-year-old speaking at a CPAC convention (let that truly sink in for a moment--a 13-year-old spoke at a Republican convention) and exploited by the right. Occasionally, follow up is in order.
 
2012-07-02 08:25:35 PM  
The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough.

But at 17...

Yeah, 11-14, kids tend to think like a Republican. Then 15-20, they tend to think like a Democrat. Then they turn 21 and wonder what the fark they were thinking and vow to never vote for those parties ever again. Well, the kids with half a brain do anyway.


And THIS KID
images.politico.com
will be attending NYU?

Never.
 
2012-07-02 08:29:10 PM  
"I think it was naive," Krohn now says of the speech. "It's a 13-year-old kid saying stuff that he had heard for a long time.... I live in Georgia. We're inundated with conservative talk in Georgia.... The speech was something that a 13-year-old does. You haven't formed all your opinions. You're really defeating yourself if you think you have all of your ideas in your head when you were 12 or 13. It's impossible. You haven't done enough."

Uh, the same goes for 17, kid.
Hell I'm 35 and I STILL haven't got it ALL figured out!
 
2012-07-02 08:34:43 PM  
I grew up in a VERY small town in the middle of nowhere. Shoot, I'd only been to the "Big City" of Indianapolis a few times growing up. I was a dumb and idiotic redneck boy who didn't know anything about the world or my own life. Example: I almost didn't graduate high school for being too stupid.

But over the course of a year or so (maybe 16-17) I changed. I dunno what caused it, but I suddenly decided I was not the person I wanted or should be. I quit my shiatty $8.00 job, packed up everything I owned in my old car and left. I drove until I hit the mountains. Ended up going to college, and eventually graduated with two degrees (with honors). I traveled, met new people, tried new things and learned everything I could about not just myself but the world around me.

Fast forward a decade and I'm the only one in my entire high school class that ever left, only one of a handful that went to college, only one of a couple that graduated college, the only person who been to more continents then North America, and the only person with an actual career (excluding farmers, including restaurant service) and my old friends there consider me .... the liberalest-lib-who-ever-libbed.
 
2012-07-02 08:39:35 PM  

yelmrog: Caught the conservative bug from about age 14 into my mid-20's. Then I got a dose of what the real world is actually like, and decided that maybe every issue can't be fully explained by neat little talking points and invoking the founding fathers.

The saddest part is that the two conservative causes I held on to were Term Limits and a balanced budget. They both have been abandoned by the party (balancing the budget gets some play when the democrats have the reins, but we can't really count that.)


I was the same way at 14 - even had my own subscription to the Limbaugh Letter.

By 2008, I happily voted for Obama and no longer agree with El Rushbo on anything.
 
2012-07-02 08:39:58 PM  
When you grow up in a small logging town an hour from the closest McDonald's, you tend to believe a lot of hard-right nonsense.

Then you serve in the military, and then you feel lied to about weapons of mass destruction.

Then you do your homework, and finally learn the basics of politics.

Then you post on Fark.

/CSB
 
2012-07-02 08:42:46 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


True. Kinda like an anti Jonah Goldberg.
 
2012-07-02 08:43:08 PM  

Umeraken Ideut: What he says about being 13 and not being informed enough to form a political opinion is true, but can't the same be said at the age he's at now? I mean, at 17, you're still not directly impacted by most of what the government does yet. Give him a few years, when he's paying his own bills, using services his taxes go to, etc. I'm not saying he's wrong and will change his mind again, I'm just saying it's naive to think a teenager, no matter what the age, is exposed to enough to form an informed opinion about such things.


At 17 you're usually a budding Communist if you've got any brains at all. Lacking those, you'll be a larval Goldwater. And ESPECIALLY if you go to college, because college lets you have those asinine beliefs without damaging your ability to function in society.

Then you graduate, and discover that neither theory is germane to real life, and you recover and move on. Commies become liberals, Goldwaterites become libertarians. Assuming, of course, they had enough independence to think about what they were taught. The ones who go on to become Marxists or Birchers usually were punished as children for not thinking like they were told.

/how's that for a sweeping overgeneralization
//but I've seen it play out over and over again.
 
2012-07-02 08:46:07 PM  

OgreMagi: and nothing getting better



citations needed
 
2012-07-02 08:47:36 PM  

RadioAaron: When you grow up in a small logging town an hour from the closest McDonald's, you tend to believe a lot of hard-right nonsense.

Then you serve in the military, and then you feel lied to about weapons of mass destruction.

Then you do your homework, and finally learn the basics of politics.

Then you post on Fark.

/CSB



Strange, most people in the military become even more hardcore conservative or libertarian. They get an ego massage that the world owes them something, and how everything they will ever achieve is because of how awesome they are.
 
2012-07-02 08:51:09 PM  
I can hardly fault the kid. He's obviously intelligent, inquisitive and articulate. I recall that when I was 14, I was well on my way to Christian fundamentalism until I sat down, considered things and thought it out before roundly rejecting that path. As he himself says, it sounds as though he's going through a personal evolution, and realizing that fact. That's a sign of growth, critical thinking and an alert mind. Good for him.
 
2012-07-02 08:52:06 PM  

abb3w: Someone with the Obama campaign should get him an invitation to address the Democratic National Convention, just to see what happens.


YES! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Oh please do this, for the lulz and the Scanner style head explosions from the right.

Commence maximum trolling!
 
2012-07-02 08:58:09 PM  

propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.


You are setting the bar pretty low. Clearly he is smarter than Grover
 
2012-07-02 08:58:29 PM  
Am I the only person who was a liberal at 13? Anyone? Steve, no? Really?

/Middle/High School was fun. i liek arguing.
 
2012-07-02 09:01:58 PM  
I don't know whether I was truly conservative when I was young. I think I was more a contrarian doucebag attention-whore. I read too much Tom Clancy and P.J. O'Rourke and I developed a hawkish, sneering know-it-all demeanour. For example, the anti-nuclear movement has been a big deal in New Zealand since at least the 70s. In 1994 when the French started testing again in the Pacific I made a point of refusing to protest, and being quite vocal in my counter-protest. I really dislike the kind of kid I was.
 
2012-07-02 09:03:28 PM  
I am 28 and have found that my views have become more anti-republican over the years, starting with the Clinton impeachment and continuing into the G.W. Bush presidency and Obama presidency. The right wing extremist insanity scared me off the republican party pretty well. I would like to see a bit more fiscal responsibility out of our government... But am not willing to cede control to insane extremists who are willing to sink the entire country because they think it will make the incumbent poll worse.
 
2012-07-02 09:05:01 PM  

intelligent comment below: NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.


All true, but this generation is too much groupthink mentality, too obsessed with entertainment, hero/star worship, and cares more about tv shows or movies than keeping up with basic politics and voting in elections.

They also don't watch much news, read non-fiction books, or do anything else to stay relevant in world affairs, not to mention their test scores and knowledge is atrocious.


In other words, you aren't personally acquainted with a single soul under the age of 40.
 
2012-07-02 09:08:21 PM  

Lunaville: In other words, you aren't personally acquainted with a single soul under the age of 40.



No, instead I form opinions based on things like facts, studies and evidence. You know, the proper way. Not limited narrow minded personal experience.
 
2012-07-02 09:11:30 PM  

Propain_az: And when he is 30, he will be a conservative again.


Bad news for you on that front. I grew up conservative, dropped the whole thing by the time I was 20, much like this kid, and at 34, I haven't looked back. Rational adults are not going to be "conservative" in this day and age. That is a shame, because conservatives, the real ones, not whatever is masquerading as the conservative movement in 2012, have some interesting and legitimate ideas. Too bad they've all been run out of the GOP.
 
2012-07-02 09:13:25 PM  

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: In other words, you aren't personally acquainted with a single soul under the age of 40.


No, instead I form opinions based on things like facts, studies and evidence. You know, the proper way. Not limited narrow minded personal experience.


Ah, yes. The International Fact-Study Journal of Evidence and Stuff. My July copy didn't show up yet.
 
2012-07-02 09:16:30 PM  

Gwyrddu: OgreMagi: But I also don't want my money thrown down the black hole of social programs that haven't fixed any problems. I'm not an evil bastard, so I don't want to cut off aid to single moms (or dads) who are struggling to feed their kids, but I also don't like those (rare) baby factories who see welfare as their career.

What's your solution then that doesn't involve spending more money? If you cut welfare programs then they these programs will become worse at getting help to the people who need.

Welfare isn't designed to solve poverty or unemployment, that is well beyond the reach the program (and in most states cash assistance has been capped at least since Bill Clinton reformed the program). The different welfare programs are meant to keep people are meant to give people who have fallen through the cracks the basic necessities of survival while being uncomfortable enough that nobody with other options chooses to be on it, and which they do.

/I made a whole post about working a volunteer science GED teacher and seeing all the people with larger problems falling through the cracks that were beyond my help, but my computer ate my post and I don't feel like typing it all out again.


Part of the problem is lack of education. I don't mean shiatty public schools. I mean an education designed to train you for real work. It was a mistake for our society to put all the emphasis on getting a college education and pretty much ignoring trade and technical schools. I would not have a problem with tax money being spent on a real program to give people a free ride in a trade school that has potential (not those rip-off online courses). For this to work well, the money would have to be enough for the person to go to school full time and not have to worry about buying food and paying rent. A two year trade school program of this nature would be expensive, but in the long run it would pay off dividends in reducing poverty, crime, and despair.

Another problem, especially in this economy, is lack of opportunity. If there are no jobs, training means nothing. While I don't really know how to deal with this (I'm man enough to admit it's not my area of expertise), what I don't want to see is huge government programs that create empty jobs that produce nothing and suck up taxpayer money.

Some people will never take the training and get jobs. For some, it's because of disabilities (both mental and physical). Caring for these people is part of being a member of a civilized society. A few, however, are the lazy. They don't want to work. They won't want training. They just want to collect a check and suck down a cold one watching tv. Fark them. Let them starve. The idiot right thinks all people on welfare fall into that category. The idiot left thinks no one is like that.

So to answer your question, I don't have a complete answer, but I'm a computer geek. Ask me how to set up a load balanced, high availability cluster and I'll be happy to give you details (for a price).
 
2012-07-02 09:16:35 PM  

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: In other words, you aren't personally acquainted with a single soul under the age of 40.


No, instead I form opinions based on things like facts, studies and evidence. You know, the proper way. Not limited narrow minded personal experience.


Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate: an accusation that happens to be a recycling of the same tired shiat that is currently lobbed at young adults and was lobbed at Generation X and was, most likely, lobbed at "the Greatest Generation" by senile old farts that proceeded them.

And what are these studies based on? From where do these studies derive their evidence? Might it be from surveying teachers, parents, and students? I'm sure it isn't at all possible to manipulate such subjective "data".
 
2012-07-02 09:18:09 PM  

intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: and nothing getting better


citations needed


A person with half a brain and an internet connection would have spent 30 seconds googling the subject.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/change-you-can-chart-2009-us-poverty - rate-highest-1994-436-million-americans-living-below-po

This shows the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid 60s.
 
2012-07-02 09:22:23 PM  

Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate: an accusation that happens to be a recycling of the same tired shiat that is currently lobbed at young adults and was lobbed at Generation X and was, most likely, lobbed at "the Greatest Generation" by senile old farts that proceeded them.

And what are these studies based on? From where do these studies derive their evidence? Might it be from surveying teachers, parents, and students? I'm sure it isn't at all possible to manipulate such subjective "data".



I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

Percentage of young people who vote
School test scores
Declining viewership of all types of news media (except entertainment news like The Daily Show because, like I said earlier, obsessed with entertainment)
Large twitter and facebook users
Large viewership of mindless entertainment on tv like Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, etc.

And yes, you caught me, all the data is manipulated to pretend young people aren't interested in politics or the world, it's all a giant conspiracy. Your handful of friends told you so!
 
2012-07-02 09:22:55 PM  

Lunaville: an accusation that happens to be a recycling of the same tired shiat that is currently lobbed at young adults and was lobbed at Generation X and was, most likely, lobbed at "the Greatest Generation" by senile old farts that proceeded them.


Small correction: it's the same complaint the eldest living generation in any recorded time frame has lodged against its younger counterpart. Go back to the earliest written records and you'll find the same old folk complaining about younger folk and their "ways." If it were possible to delve into the lost oral traditions beyond even that, you'd find exactly the same thing. Old people like complaining about young people. It's a coping mechanism.

/i'll be 30 soon and those danged teenagers with their loud rap musicians, by gosh
//i'd ruin them all with my death metal
 
2012-07-02 09:23:25 PM  

OgreMagi: intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: and nothing getting better


citations needed

A person with half a brain and an internet connection would have spent 30 seconds googling the subject.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/change-you-can-chart-2009-us-poverty - rate-highest-1994-436-million-americans-living-below-po

This shows the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid 60s.



That has nothing to do with the success or failure of social programs.

Those stats can be attributed to 2 main things. The war on drugs and massive recessions in the 70's 80's 90's and 2000's
 
2012-07-02 09:26:06 PM  

intelligent comment below: Large twitter and facebook users


I'm sure at some point some self-obsessed old dork was making the same complaint about ice cream socials and land-line phones.
 
2012-07-02 09:29:29 PM  

intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.


first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle
 
2012-07-02 09:33:43 PM  

Mrtraveler01: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

So vote Republican...


I am not having this argument with another dumbass this week.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz...." How unique.


Nor am I having this argument this week.

Seriously, you people are completely incapable of critical thinking. Move to Texas, they'll farking love you there.
 
2012-07-02 09:33:44 PM  

intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: and nothing getting better


citations needed

A person with half a brain and an internet connection would have spent 30 seconds googling the subject.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/change-you-can-chart-2009-us-poverty - rate-highest-1994-436-million-americans-living-below-po

This shows the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid 60s.


That has nothing to do with the success or failure of social programs.

Those stats can be attributed to 2 main things. The war on drugs and massive recessions in the 70's 80's 90's and 2000's


So then what the hell was the "War on Poverty" supposed to accomplish? You give the standard response when a failed program is criticized, but despite your protestations, the facts speak for themselves. The poverty rate has not changed.
 
2012-07-02 09:35:34 PM  

mat catastrophe: Mrtraveler01: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

So vote Republican...

I am not having this argument with another dumbass this week.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz...." How unique.

Nor am I having this argument this week.

Seriously, you people are completely incapable of critical thinking. Move to Texas, they'll farking love you there.


Nothing says "I love critical thinking" quite like "I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU YOU'RE STUPID JUST MOVE TO TEXAS OR SOMETHING!!!!11!1!"
 
2012-07-02 09:36:23 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: Mrtraveler01: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

So vote Republican...

I am not having this argument with another dumbass this week.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz...." How unique.

Nor am I having this argument this week.

Seriously, you people are completely incapable of critical thinking. Move to Texas, they'll farking love you there.

Nothing says "I love critical thinking" quite like "I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU YOU'RE STUPID JUST MOVE TO TEXAS OR SOMETHING!!!!11!1!"


He was right to call you stupid, Lou. It's not a secret.
 
2012-07-02 09:38:37 PM  

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: In other words, you aren't personally acquainted with a single soul under the age of 40.


No, instead I form opinions based on things like facts, studies and evidence. You know, the proper way. Not limited narrow minded personal experience.


That's too bad, because you need BOTH to form a proper opinion.
 
2012-07-02 09:38:52 PM  

OgreMagi: So then what the hell was the "War on Poverty" supposed to accomplish? You give the standard response when a failed program is criticized, but despite your protestations, the facts speak for themselves. The poverty rate has not changed.


I've always thought the "War on Poverty", as dumb a catch-all name as it is, was supposed to elevate the standard of living of those who are in poverty, rather than eliminate poverty. That whole "people from foreign countries want to move to a nation where the poor people are fat" thing I've seen conservatives mention with pride, time and time again.
 
2012-07-02 09:43:05 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: propasaurus: So already this kid is smarter than Grover Norquist.

Seems like proof that ol' Grover's in a state of arrested development.


Sky is blue, water is wet.
 
2012-07-02 09:44:12 PM  
Or, the tl;dl version: the more you learn, the less you know.
 
2012-07-02 09:51:12 PM  

intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: and nothing getting better


citations needed

A person with half a brain and an internet connection would have spent 30 seconds googling the subject.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/change-you-can-chart-2009-us-poverty - rate-highest-1994-436-million-americans-living-below-po

This shows the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid 60s.


That has nothing to do with the success or failure of social programs.

Those stats can be attributed to 2 main things. The war on drugs and massive recessions in the 70's 80's 90's and 2000's



I should also add, globalization, free trade agreements, and a huge decline in union workers.
 
2012-07-02 09:52:11 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: OgreMagi: So then what the hell was the "War on Poverty" supposed to accomplish? You give the standard response when a failed program is criticized, but despite your protestations, the facts speak for themselves. The poverty rate has not changed.

I've always thought the "War on Poverty", as dumb a catch-all name as it is, was supposed to elevate the standard of living of those who are in poverty, rather than eliminate poverty. That whole "people from foreign countries want to move to a nation where the poor people are fat" thing I've seen conservatives mention with pride, time and time again.


If you elevate a person's standard of living enough, they stop living in poverty. Unless you measure poverty as a fixed percentage of the population, which means you can never eliminate it. That would be stupid (and I would not put it past the government to do exactly that).

In my book, poverty is when you don't have enough money to have the basic necessities. Food, housing, clothing. Being poor is a step up from poverty. If you are poor, you have the basics, but not much more than that (depending upon the level of poor). I've been poor. I was in the situation where something like a drink from Starbucks was something I got once every couple of weeks at the most. It sucked, but I had a roof over my head and food (came damn close to becoming homeless, though).
 
2012-07-02 09:54:12 PM  

OgreMagi: So then what the hell was the "War on Poverty" supposed to accomplish? You give the standard response when a failed program is criticized, but despite your protestations, the facts speak for themselves. The poverty rate has not changed.



The facts speak for themselves? You claim to have facts, plural. But you only supplied facts, singular.

Here are declining poverty rates

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-07-02 09:55:02 PM  

skullkrusher: intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle



Making generalizations of a group of people based off statistics is called science. I know a Fark troll doesn't understand anything that comes out of academia since your ITT Tech degree didn't cover that.
 
2012-07-02 09:55:40 PM  

Gyrfalcon: That's too bad, because you need BOTH to form a proper opinion.



You think a small circle of friends is important in making generalizations of millions of people?
 
2012-07-02 09:56:31 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: intelligent comment below: Large twitter and facebook users

I'm sure at some point some self-obsessed old dork was making the same complaint about ice cream socials and land-line phones.



Considering the garbage from those time wasting sites and the coverage they have seen from professional media, I'm surprised you would be defending their use by todays entitled generation.
 
2012-07-02 09:57:56 PM  

OgreMagi: If you elevate a person's standard of living enough, they stop living in poverty. Unless you measure poverty as a fixed percentage of the population, which means you can never eliminate it. That would be stupid (and I would not put it past the government to do exactly that).

In my book, poverty is when you don't have enough money to have the basic necessities. Food, housing, clothing. Being poor is a step up from poverty. If you are poor, you have the basics, but not much more than that (depending upon the level of poor). I've been poor. I was in the situation where something like a drink from Starbucks was something I got once every couple of weeks at the most. It sucked, but I had a roof over my head and food (came damn close to becoming homeless, though).


Kay ... so what? Conservatives rail with spittle-flecked rage at the idea that 99.7% of poor people have access to a refrigerator. Sounds to me like evidence that something is working. We have subsidized housing instead of mass homelessness, food stamps instead of starvation, etc. The War on Poverty keeps bloated corpses from clogging up the storm drains.
 
2012-07-02 09:59:28 PM  

intelligent comment below: RadioAaron: When you grow up in a small logging town an hour from the closest McDonald's, you tend to believe a lot of hard-right nonsense.

Then you serve in the military, and then you feel lied to about weapons of mass destruction.

Then you do your homework, and finally learn the basics of politics.

Then you post on Fark.

/CSB


Strange, most people in the military become even more hardcore conservative or libertarian. They get an ego massage that the world owes them something, and how everything they will ever achieve is because of how awesome they are.


The military had the opposite effect on my brother. A year as infantryman in Iraq put his life in perspective. He was really conservative, then he met people from all over the US and the world who were truly different from him, and found out the hard way how fragile life is and became more realistic. I think it made him more introspective.
He's a damned good writer now. His boss publicly compared him to Hemingway.


/ kind of proud of the kid
 
2012-07-02 10:02:58 PM  

El Dudereno: The military had the opposite effect on my brother. A year as infantryman in Iraq put his life in perspective. He was really conservative, then he met people from all over the US and the world who were truly different from him, and found out the hard way how fragile life is and became more realistic. I think it made him more introspective.
He's a damned good writer now. His boss publicly compared him to Hemingway.


/ kind of proud of the kid



There still is hope, but they are a dwindling minority

The only positive I see out of the military is, like you said, meeting a bunch of different people. You work with white, black, latino, asian, etc. and some people change their racist/xenophobic views.

But I wish these kids were given cheap education so they didn't have to join in the first place. A career in politics or civil service is far more important than holding a gun overseas these days.
 
2012-07-02 10:03:36 PM  

Aarontology: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 272x288]


Done in one. Last one out turn off the lights...
 
2012-07-02 10:04:07 PM  

intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: So then what the hell was the "War on Poverty" supposed to accomplish? You give the standard response when a failed program is criticized, but despite your protestations, the facts speak for themselves. The poverty rate has not changed.


The facts speak for themselves? You claim to have facts, plural. But you only supplied facts, singular.

Here are declining poverty rates

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x356]


As I stated when I posted the link, the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid-60s. If I wanted to nitpick, I would say it has even gone up, but I attribute that current bump to the economic situation which should be temporary.
 
2012-07-02 10:05:00 PM  

OgreMagi: Part of the problem is lack of education. I don't mean shiatty public schools. I mean an education designed to train you for real work. It was a mistake for our society to put all the emphasis on getting a college education and pretty much ignoring trade and technical schools. I would not have a problem with tax money being spent on a real program to give people a free ride in a trade school that has potential (not those rip-off online courses). For this to work well, the money would have to be enough for the person to go to school full time and not have to worry about buying food and paying rent. A two year trade school program of this nature would be expensive, but in the long run it would pay off dividends in reducing poverty, crime, and despair.


I'm going to a private technical school right, Dunwoody College of Technology. And they use to offer a free ride to students just because of corporate donations fifty years ago. Companies were happy to offer students the scholarships they needed and in return they got workers with the skills they needed. Of course this no longer the case not just with Dunwoody but in general, companies are no longer willing to invest in employees, and in exchange employees feel no loyalty to their people they work for.

It's a bit of a tangent, but it is interesting that all these companies are claiming there are no skilled workers when they aren't willing to put any effort towards human resource management and spend there time trying to snipe workers off of other companies while discriminating against anyone who has been unemployed while still offering crappy wages and an unrealistic expectation for past work history.

Technical colleges as well as 4 year degrees are usually a good idea, and ultimately one that a lot of people have hit upon at the same time. Thus we already more students than what most schools can handle, which causes a rise in tuition and the scam online schools to prosper when some students ultimately end up being left out.

What we really need are unions back, as they can handle training through apprenticeship programs and all the HR problems that corporations are terrible at and set reasonable wages that attract and keep good employees.

Some people will never take the training and get jobs. For some, it's because of disabilities (both mental and physical). Caring for these people is part of being a member of a civilized society. A few, however, are the lazy. They don't want to work. They won't want training. They just want to collect a check and suck down a cold one watching tv. Fark them. Let them starve. The idiot right thinks all people on welfare fall into that category. The idiot left thinks no one is like that.

People rarely starve in first world societies. If you cut off their basic necessities from one program they'll just take more money from another program. If they don't have welfare, they'll commit crimes if they have to, and we'll end up paying more to house them in jail then it would just to give them welfare. Or they will commit themselves to mental institutions which are even more expensive. And you don't want these people working anyway, they would make terrible employees (my father had to supervise welfare-to-work recipients in NYC before he retired, he knows firsthand).

Anyway, the point is, you don't save money by cutting welfare, you just shift the problem elsewhere and almost always end up spending more in the end then if you just let lazy people live their crappy lives on a minimal allowance.
 
2012-07-02 10:06:28 PM  

intelligent comment below: Considering the garbage from those time wasting sites and the coverage they have seen from professional media, I'm surprised you would be defending their use by todays entitled generation.


Old man has yelled at clouds since there were clouds. I wouldn't want to spend all day glued to my phone tweeting about the bran muffin I had that morning, but I don't really give a shiat what kids do today or try to come up with lists of reasons to justify calling them "entitled" because I'm too busy living a life that doesn't suck.

I'm sure your complaint has been filed by every generation when it got old enough to be the person nobody wanted to see at Thanksgiving anymore. Kids racing their suped-up cars and hanging out at the drug store, kids clogging up the mall's arcade trying to beat the top score on Donkey Kong, kids frittering away their youth riding horses with their sweethearts instead of learning to manage the family's plantation full of slaves. Your incredibly non-specific complaint is a symptom of a disease that has infested humanity's last few decades since at least as long as we've had the capacity to write down which old man was yelling at which cloud.
 
2012-07-02 10:07:10 PM  
I find the exploitation of children in stumping to be among the crassest displays in politics.
 
2012-07-02 10:10:29 PM  

OgreMagi: As I stated when I posted the link, the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid-60s. If I wanted to nitpick, I would say it has even gone up, but I attribute that current bump to the economic situation which should be temporary.



Except the link you posted was disingenuous by not separating poverty rates by age group.

Social services have mostly been designed to benefit the elderly. As you can see, their poverty rates have dropped off the cliff.

Practically every other group also has benefited. So it seems when you separate it and look at the fine print, your argument falls on its face.
 
2012-07-02 10:10:33 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: OgreMagi: If you elevate a person's standard of living enough, they stop living in poverty. Unless you measure poverty as a fixed percentage of the population, which means you can never eliminate it. That would be stupid (and I would not put it past the government to do exactly that).

In my book, poverty is when you don't have enough money to have the basic necessities. Food, housing, clothing. Being poor is a step up from poverty. If you are poor, you have the basics, but not much more than that (depending upon the level of poor). I've been poor. I was in the situation where something like a drink from Starbucks was something I got once every couple of weeks at the most. It sucked, but I had a roof over my head and food (came damn close to becoming homeless, though).

Kay ... so what? Conservatives rail with spittle-flecked rage at the idea that 99.7% of poor people have access to a refrigerator. Sounds to me like evidence that something is working. We have subsidized housing instead of mass homelessness, food stamps instead of starvation, etc. The War on Poverty keeps bloated corpses from clogging up the storm drains.


A refrigerator is pretty much a necessity these days, and are not priced so high that even a poor family can't get a basic one. The foaming at the mouth conservatives need to shut the hell up. However, poor is not the same as impoverished.

I will repeat, the POVERTY rate has remained pretty much the same since the mid-60s. And yes, the war on poverty was intended to eliminate the problem. It hasn't. It is running in place. It's time to reassess things and figure out what can be done to eliminate poverty.
 
2012-07-02 10:10:45 PM  

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate: an accusation that happens to be a recycling of the same tired shiat that is currently lobbed at young adults and was lobbed at Generation X and was, most likely, lobbed at "the Greatest Generation" by senile old farts that proceeded them.

And what are these studies based on? From where do these studies derive their evidence? Might it be from surveying teachers, parents, and students? I'm sure it isn't at all possible to manipulate such subjective "data".


I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

Percentage of young people who vote
School test scores
Declining viewership of all types of news media (except entertainment news like The Daily Show because, like I said earlier, obsessed with entertainment)
Large twitter and facebook users
Large viewership of mindless entertainment on tv like Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, etc.

And yes, you caught me, all the data is manipulated to pretend young people aren't interested in politics or the world, it's all a giant conspiracy. Your handful of friends told you so!


You know who watches crap like dancing with the stars and idol? People who still watch network TV - you know... people over 45.

The same people whose cell phones are more likely to ring at the movies.
 
2012-07-02 10:11:46 PM  

intelligent comment below: OgreMagi: As I stated when I posted the link, the poverty rate has remained relatively flat since the mid-60s. If I wanted to nitpick, I would say it has even gone up, but I attribute that current bump to the economic situation which should be temporary.


Except the link you posted was disingenuous by not separating poverty rates by age group.

Social services have mostly been designed to benefit the elderly. As you can see, their poverty rates have dropped off the cliff.

Practically every other group also has benefited. So it seems when you separate it and look at the fine print, your argument falls on its face.


If you reduce poverty in one group and increase poverty in another, your system is flawed. Since the poverty rate has not changed, the system must be flawed.
 
2012-07-02 10:13:19 PM  

El Dudereno: You know who watches crap like dancing with the stars and idol? People who still watch network TV - you know... people over 45.

The same people whose cell phones are more likely to ring at the movies.



I think if you looked at viewership by age you might be surprised
 
2012-07-02 10:14:12 PM  

OgreMagi: If you reduce poverty in one group and increase poverty in another, your system is flawed. Since the poverty rate has not changed, the system must be flawed.



This makes no logical sense.

If different groups are affected differently it means other factors had a hand. And those factors I already addressed. You aren't using logic, this argument is over.
 
2012-07-02 10:16:16 PM  

intelligent comment below: El Dudereno: You know who watches crap like dancing with the stars and idol? People who still watch network TV - you know... people over 45.

The same people whose cell phones are more likely to ring at the movies.


I think if you looked at viewership by age you might be surprised


The annoying cell phone people I've seen in the theaters are almost always teenagers, with the occasional "I'm important" business-suit asshole. But that's my own experience locally.

Can we make it legal to jam a cellphone up a person's backside if it rings during the movie?
 
2012-07-02 10:16:27 PM  

OgreMagi: I will repeat, the POVERTY rate has remained pretty much the same since the mid-60s. And yes, the war on poverty was intended to eliminate the problem. It hasn't. It is running in place. It's time to reassess things and figure out what can be done to eliminate poverty.


Repeating it doesn't make it true. If refrigerators are ubiquitous enough to be "basically necessary", then you can thank the War on Poverty. You are demonstrating exactly what's so difficult about this kind of problem: Once you've managed to score a victory, people immediately take it for granted no problem existed in the first place, and why the Hell are we spending all this money if nothing has changed?
 
2012-07-02 10:17:28 PM  

OgreMagi: A few, however, are the lazy. They don't want to work. They won't want training. They just want to collect a check and suck down a cold one watching tv. Fark them. Let them starve. The idiot right thinks all people on welfare fall into that category. The idiot left thinks no one is like that.


I tend to feel the same way about the lazy, but pragmatically societies need to deal with those people. You can't just let them starve. Granted if the alternative was a slow death by starvation some would get whatever shiatty job they could, maybe even like the extra cash and become functional members of society, others might move in with family and sponge off them instead. But that kind of person has most likely been making bad decisions for awhile; a nonzero number would definitely resort to crime most likely they would be bad at it and get caught. Justice costs money and processing people costs money, and imprisoning them costs money, more than basic welfare. This does not take into account any hardship or trauma suffered by the victims of their crimes. It may be a free ride, but it isn't exactly affluence, I wouldn't trade places with them for anything. I rather like gadgets and tools, hard to buy those on any sort of welfare.
 
2012-07-02 10:17:47 PM  

IlGreven: Tigger: He thinks the government should be out of the business of defining marriage

As long as the government is tying benefits to marriage, then they should be in the business of defining marriage. If you don't want the government defining marriage, then get government completely out of the business of marriage.


That wasn't really my point and I didn't side with it anyway.
 
2012-07-02 10:20:31 PM  

OgreMagi: Some people will never take the training and get jobs. For some, it's because of disabilities (both mental and physical). Caring for these people is part of being a member of a civilized society. A few, however, are the lazy. They don't want to work. They won't want training. They just want to collect a check and suck down a cold one watching tv. Fark them. Let them starve. The idiot right thinks all people on welfare fall into that category. The idiot left thinks no one is like that.



Welfare doesn't work like that

Unless you can fake a disability you need to work

The biggest lazy losers I've seen are kids of super rich parents
 
2012-07-02 10:22:22 PM  

susansto-helit: Sounds like a smart kid with an inquisitive mind. Whatever he does in life, I hope he keeps questioning what he's told.


"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

That goes for the Daily Show crowd too.
Sometimes people muster more than a mantra, but less than a series of interconnected thoughts and ideas that constitute a well-reasoned defensible postion on an issue, and this is where I see many people struggling nowadays. The joke's on you guys if you think every kid like him is going to swing left.
"
 
2012-07-02 10:35:34 PM  
The liberal derp in the comment section is a fail.
(the richer and more educated vote Conservative, not Liberal...)

[well, rather, the richer you are the more conservative you become. The more educated you are, it is likely too the more richer you become]
 
2012-07-02 10:40:47 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: OgreMagi: I will repeat, the POVERTY rate has remained pretty much the same since the mid-60s. And yes, the war on poverty was intended to eliminate the problem. It hasn't. It is running in place. It's time to reassess things and figure out what can be done to eliminate poverty.

Repeating it doesn't make it true. If refrigerators are ubiquitous enough to be "basically necessary", then you can thank the War on Poverty. You are demonstrating exactly what's so difficult about this kind of problem: Once you've managed to score a victory, people immediately take it for granted no problem existed in the first place, and why the Hell are we spending all this money if nothing has changed?


If they can afford a refrigerator, they aren't impoverished. They might still be poor, though.

Now here's where the devil is in the detail. What is the government's definition of poverty? I've stated my definition in an earlier post.
 
2012-07-02 10:41:24 PM  

Jabberwookiee: This is obviously the result of bad parenting. He obviously needs to spend more time contemplating the philosophical import of aborted fetuses. And, of course, more spankings.


I love fetuses.

media.masslive.com

I could eat three a day.
 
2012-07-02 10:43:21 PM  
Apparently the kid is appearing on "The Last Word" on MSNBC in a couple minutes.
 
2012-07-02 10:44:10 PM  

susansto-helit: Sounds like a smart kid with an inquisitive mind. Whatever he does in life, I hope he keeps questioning what he's told.


jaylectricity: Krohn is bucking the received wisdom that people become more conservative as they get older, a shift he attributes partly to philosophy.

Actually, you don't start getting liberal tendencies until you get into high school. Then maybe after you've partied your 20s away you start to become more conservative.

At least, that's the received wisdom. So what this kid did...not so much.


I was a conservative for an embarrassingly long time after finishing high school. But I guess it takes a while to wear off when you've spent grades 1-8 attending a school that might as well have been modeled after Jesus Camp.
 
2012-07-02 10:45:37 PM  

intelligent comment below: Considering the garbage from those time wasting sites and the coverage they have seen from professional media, I'm surprised you would be defending their use by todays entitled generation.


Kids use social media more, but don't pretend like adults aren't total morons on Twitter as well. If we had documented evidence of brain farts from every Joe Schmo in the 1930's they'd look like a bunch of idiots too.

The REAL blame belongs to the free market. It's giving us everything we want. Moreso than my father and his generation, I've grown up on a steady diet of mindless corporate nonsense. Just compare the music. Back in the 60's and 70's, rock and roll was about politics often. That's just not true anymore. Corporate political correctness has made those topics taboo, and instead we get to listen to LMFAO. Because that's how the responsible adults get rich.

Children aren't writing reality tv shows. They're not trying to get big ratings on Fox News and CNN by going for the most sensational stories possible. The sensible adults have created a society where the biggest, most egotistical assholes get rich as hell being terrible to one another, and everyone is SHOCKED when children get jaded and aren't rushing to the library to learn about Syria.

Of course when we do try to participate in the political process and say organize for Obama in 2008, or head to the streets and protest OWS style, we're mocked and ridiculed because clearly we're all idiots and our opinions mean nothing because we have iPhones.
 
2012-07-02 10:48:22 PM  

OgreMagi: If they can afford a refrigerator, they aren't impoverished. They might still be poor, though.


The statistic is that they have access to a refrigerator, not that they own one. As you said, in today's society it's a necessity. Which is the both the point of this kind of social program and its biggest curse: Once it elevates society to a level where something like a fridge is necessary, it also becomes invisible, and the work it took to get to that point also becomes invisible.

You can define poverty by total net worth or yearly earnings divided by number of family members or whatever you'd like. The point to something like social programs for people in poverty is whether the quality of life for those in poverty is better with those programs, rather than a bare statistic about how many people are in that category.
 
2012-07-02 10:51:10 PM  

intelligent comment below: skullkrusher: intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle


Making generalizations of a group of people based off statistics is called science. I know a Fark troll doesn't understand anything that comes out of academia since your ITT Tech degree didn't cover that.


and here I was thinking that generalizations made about millions of individuals were a sign of intellectual laziness and disingenuous farkheadedness. Thanks for setting me straight!
 
2012-07-02 10:51:38 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: Mrtraveler01: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

So vote Republican...

I am not having this argument with another dumbass this week.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: So, since he now agrees with subby, he's "thinking for himself."

Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz...." How unique.

Nor am I having this argument this week.

Seriously, you people are completely incapable of critical thinking. Move to Texas, they'll farking love you there.

Nothing says "I love critical thinking" quite like "I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU YOU'RE STUPID JUST MOVE TO TEXAS OR SOMETHING!!!!11!1!"


The headline is based on the false premise that "thinking for one's self" somehow means "coming to believe what I believe".

I pointed this out and was immediately lumped in the "Vote Republican" crowd by one person and the "both sides are bad" crowd by you, without any sort of logical reason to do that. I made no statement as to my own beliefs about either "side" or made any calls for people to vote one way or the other. I pointed out that the headline is the result of a pretty narrow worldview.
 
2012-07-02 10:57:22 PM  
Kid sounds like he's going down the same political path I did. In middle and high school, I made my parents buy me Rush Limbaugh books. By the time I got to college, I was a hard core Libertarian. That lasted until 2004.

At that point I was, and still am, against the war in Iraq. I changed my party affiliation to Democrat, reluctantly voted for Kerry as a protest vote against W. I was also disgusted at all the gay marriage bans that magically ended up on the ballot that November

By the time 2008 rolled around, my social views had swung way left. Having family members come out of the closet, not to mention working in the middle of a very poor city, showed me that there is a place for goverent in our lives. I was also disgusted at how the John McCain I voted for in the 2000 primary, became the guy who was running in 2008.
 
2012-07-02 10:58:58 PM  
Jesus H....

Guys, I'd like to offer some solutions for you:

1) Shut up
2) My penis in your mouth
3) Swallow

Problems solved.
 
2012-07-02 10:59:02 PM  

mat catastrophe: I pointed this out and was immediately lumped in the "Vote Republican" crowd by one person and the "both sides are bad" crowd by you, without any sort of logical reason to do that. I made no statement as to my own beliefs about either "side" or made any calls for people to vote one way or the other.


Exhibit A:

mat catastrophe: Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.


"both sidez are teh badz..."
 
2012-07-02 11:06:03 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: I pointed this out and was immediately lumped in the "Vote Republican" crowd by one person and the "both sides are bad" crowd by you, without any sort of logical reason to do that. I made no statement as to my own beliefs about either "side" or made any calls for people to vote one way or the other.

Exhibit A:

mat catastrophe: Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz..."


Doesn't mean I don't support one. I just don't support the headline.
 
2012-07-02 11:08:09 PM  

mat catastrophe: Doesn't mean I don't support one. I just don't support the headline.


"Nuh uh, I could have just expressed an opinion I don't actually have!"
 
2012-07-02 11:19:26 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: Doesn't mean I don't support one. I just don't support the headline.

"Nuh uh, I could have just expressed an opinion I don't actually have!"


Because I never do that, do I?

/hail eris
 
2012-07-02 11:23:56 PM  

Aarontology:


I read the article before clicking the comments. That was the first thing I thought of.
 
2012-07-02 11:33:22 PM  
This is obviously, obviously fabricated.

Age 13 in 2009, 17 in 2012?? Can't explain that!

/ arithmetic? what?
 
2012-07-02 11:37:52 PM  
Someone found a hippy chick that will put out
 
2012-07-02 11:38:48 PM  

runcible spork: This is obviously, obviously fabricated.

Age 13 in 2009, 17 in 2012?? Can't explain that!

/ arithmetic? what?


He spoke two days before his 14th birthday.

Calendars? What?
 
2012-07-02 11:39:36 PM  

runcible spork: This is obviously, obviously fabricated.

Age 13 in 2009, 17 in 2012?? Can't explain that!

/ arithmetic? what?


I was born in 1982. I'm 29. I'll be 30 soon.

1982 + 30 = 2012

Ah, but wait, for the first seven months of the year, I'm leaning toward the younger side of the year. So until the end of July, I'm going to be 29, as I am right now.

/some cultures calculate age by stating you are +1 years per western notions
//i think we should celebrate conception day instead of birth day
///far more momentous and enjoyable
 
2012-07-02 11:44:25 PM  
Oh jeez, I had no idea people wouldn't realize that was a joke, Please let's not let it go any farther than those one... two... two responses.
 
2012-07-02 11:55:44 PM  
Yeah, when I was a young teen dumbass and thought I was going to be a millionaire by the time I was 30 I was a conservative too, then I grew up and got a job.
 
2012-07-02 11:57:00 PM  

intelligent comment below: Gyrfalcon: That's too bad, because you need BOTH to form a proper opinion.


You think a small circle of friends is important in making generalizations of millions of people?


That's because you need BOTH to form a proper opinion. And yes I do.

Statistics are b/s, as you should be perfectly aware. A statistic can verify anything you want it to: Either crime is up or down, depending on how the stats are set up. Why do you think a good longitudinal study uses case examples? There's no way to evaluate a raw number unless you also look at the people it came from.

Now, saying "That's not true because I know X and they're not like that," is of course a bad way to do that. However, pretending anecdotal evidence is not valid if it is integrated into a larger study is also bad. It leads you to wrong conclusions. Example: Statistics show that welfare fraud is fairly minimal. It is NOT nonexistent. Anecdotal evidence allows one to determine which types of people are likely to commit fraud. Absent that kind of evidence, there's no way to evaluate either the "welfare queen" stories or the "everyone who is on welfare needs it" stories. Statistics need context.

Anecdotal evidence also provides a starting point for any study. If I have friends who are all of the opinion that all welfare recipients are welfare cheats, then I have grounds to start examining the statistics. If I have friends who KNOW welfare cheats, then I have grounds to examine welfare fraud in those locations. Are you beginning to see how this works? Other people's opinions can be valuable in assessing raw data. If welfare cheats are unusually concentrated in my area, I can safely say that their opinion is correct insofar as they are only seeing local conditions. But if you rely solely on data that says "Very few welfare cheats exist" then you will be inclined to dismiss their opinions--which may be quite valid for a specific location.

So if the statistics say "Only 2% of welfare recipients are cheats," and my friends are saying "I know 50 people who are all welfare cheats," then I can see that a) something is wrong with welfare in my area and b) my friends are never going to be convinced that only 2% of recipients are cheats without more data. Discounting people's opinions means you discount WHY they have those opinions, and they may well be valid for local conditions or attitudes.
 
2012-07-03 12:03:33 AM  

OgreMagi: intelligent comment below: El Dudereno: You know who watches crap like dancing with the stars and idol? People who still watch network TV - you know... people over 45.

The same people whose cell phones are more likely to ring at the movies.


I think if you looked at viewership by age you might be surprised

The annoying cell phone people I've seen in the theaters are almost always teenagers, with the occasional "I'm important" business-suit asshole. But that's my own experience locally.

Can we make it legal to jam a cellphone up a person's backside if it rings during the movie?


As long as it goes far enough in that nobody can hear it anymore.

The people I see whose phones ring are the ones who don't know how to turn off the ringer and leave it in their purse. They're the ones who inevitably have the ringer set on loud and have to fumble around with it to get it silenced.
 
2012-07-03 12:13:35 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: Yeah, when I was a young teen dumbass and thought I was going to be a millionaire by the time I was 30 I was a conservative too, then I grew up and got a job.


and became a socialist. Maybe you're a bad example of people's politics maturing with age?
 
2012-07-03 12:20:34 AM  
I find it down right amusing that we have a 17 year old going on about how much he now knows compared to when he was 13.

I can be consistent in this because I said back when he was 13 that it didn't really mean anything. I remember watching conservatives gush over this kid back then and thinking how much it reminded me of watching people gush over the "born again christian" kids that same age.

By the way one does not suddenly start "thinking for themselves" just because they start agreeing with liberals.
 
2012-07-03 12:25:27 AM  

Corvus: The GOP is all about pretending complex ideas can be solved by simple bumper sticker dogma.


cdnimg.visualizeus.com
 
2012-07-03 12:29:05 AM  
Good and bad,
I defined these terms
Quite clear
No doubt
Somehow

Ah but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
 
2012-07-03 12:38:13 AM  
"chillin with krohn" was soooo awkward
 
2012-07-03 12:43:56 AM  

skullkrusher: intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle


Now, now, his FARK handle is not a lie. It just refers to the comments below his own (generally those Replying to and refuting his). Note that it doesn't say how far "below" the intelligent comment is to be found.
 
2012-07-03 12:52:37 AM  
Must... not... deride...
 
2012-07-03 01:01:32 AM  

simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?


Because like the mother who yelled at me for telling her kid to be quiet during the movie, some people just don't want to admit that they're wrong at least and part of the problem at worst.
 
2012-07-03 01:13:36 AM  

Rockstone: [well, rather, the richer you are the more conservative you become. The more educated you are, it is likely too the more richer you become]



I'd love a citation

Seems the richest people, Gates, Jobs, Carlos Slim, Ellon Munsk, etc. are all very liberal minded
 
2012-07-03 01:14:27 AM  

Rockstone: (the richer and more educated vote Conservative, not Liberal...)



Like Jesus?

(Ironic you claim to be a Christian in your profile)
 
2012-07-03 01:15:33 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Statistics are b/s



We're done here

If you can't debate like an intellectual then don't debate me
 
2012-07-03 01:16:52 AM  

COMALite J: skullkrusher: intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle

Now, now, his FARK handle is not a lie. It just refers to the comments below his own (generally those Replying to and refuting his). Note that it doesn't say how far "below" the intelligent comment is to be found.



I was wondering how long it would take for his support group to show up

Typical troll tactics: Don't debate person's posts, just insult them
 
2012-07-03 01:17:56 AM  

randomjsa: I find it down right amusing that we have a 17 year old going on about how much he now knows compared to when he was 13.



Want to know what's even more amusing? That he was a conservative HERO when he was 13. But now he changed his tune, and you insult his age.
 
2012-07-03 01:28:16 AM  

intelligent comment below: Rockstone: [well, rather, the richer you are the more conservative you become. The more educated you are, it is likely too the more richer you become]


I'd love a citation

Seems the richest people, Gates, Jobs, Carlos Slim, Ellon Munsk, etc. are all very liberal minded


The people who get rich by actually, y'know, innovating and creating things people want are usually liberal. Wealthy Conservatives generally get wealthy by playing the stock market, or inheriting it.
 
2012-07-03 01:33:51 AM  
FTA: "I started reflecting on a lot of what I wrote, just thinking about what I had said and what I had done and started reading a lot of other stuff..."

There you have it. The two main enemies of conservatism. Thinking and reading.
 
2012-07-03 02:10:36 AM  

Tigger: IlGreven: Tigger: He thinks the government should be out of the business of defining marriage

As long as the government is tying benefits to marriage, then they should be in the business of defining marriage. If you don't want the government defining marriage, then get government completely out of the business of marriage.

That wasn't really my point and I didn't side with it anyway.


But that was the crux of mine. If he doesn't want the government to define marriage, then he shouldn't want the government to give benefits for marriage. Just like everything he wants the government to butt out of. And what he wants required by the government, he should be prepared for the government to define just what is required.
 
2012-07-03 02:41:25 AM  

New Farkin User Name: Am I the only person who was a liberal at 13? Anyone? Steve, no? Really?

/Middle/High School was fun. i liek arguing.


Nope, been a Liberal all my life as well (40+ years now). My Grandfather on my mother's side was very Liberal and a huge influence in my life early on. But I have a feeling I would have turned out Liberal without him just because if you pay attention enough and actually care about what is going on around you, you really can't help but turn out at least slightly Liberal.
 
2012-07-03 02:50:05 AM  

LordJiro: intelligent comment below: Rockstone: [well, rather, the richer you are the more conservative you become. The more educated you are, it is likely too the more richer you become]


I'd love a citation

Seems the richest people, Gates, Jobs, Carlos Slim, Ellon Munsk, etc. are all very liberal minded

The people who get rich by actually, y'know, innovating and creating things people want are usually liberal. Wealthy Conservatives generally get wealthy by playing the stock market, or inheriting it.


The Conservative mindset fears change. They are anti-innovation. They want to stick with the tried-and-true. New ideas scare them. Progress is viewed as a disease. They always look to the past for ideas instead of daring to reach for the future.

In other words, they are very creative because they don't like new ideas.
 
2012-07-03 02:55:04 AM  

NURBS: Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.


Ah, the conceit of every generation. Back in the 70's, we used to say that "every day, more of us are born, and more of them die." We would be ushering in the new era of peace, love, and understanding (not to mention legal weed), because we were so much more enlightened than the generations that preceded us. What we failed to notice, however, was that most of our generation was a bunch of ignorant, selfish, short-sighted idiots - as was the case with every generation before ours. I'm guessing that one day you'll wake up and realize that the same is true of your generation.

By the way, in 1972 I was ringing doorbells for Richard Nixon. By 1976, I was one of the few liberals in the state of Idaho. This kid's evolution is very familiar to me. And for those of you who think age will inevitably bring him back to conservatism, I wouldn't be so sure. At the age of 51, I'm probably more liberal than ever. For me, having a career, owning property, and raising a child all served to reinforce my liberalism.
 
2012-07-03 03:24:57 AM  
He changed because Brietbart died. You always have to kill the Head Vampire in order to turn his lesser vampires back into human.
 
2012-07-03 03:26:29 AM  

kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.


And take that into account when you hear about Grover Norquist, who came up with his "no taxes OR ELSE!" plan when he was just twelve years old.

img.youtube.com
 
2012-07-03 04:22:37 AM  

mat catastrophe: LouDobbsAwaaaay: mat catastrophe: I pointed this out and was immediately lumped in the "Vote Republican" crowd by one person and the "both sides are bad" crowd by you, without any sort of logical reason to do that. I made no statement as to my own beliefs about either "side" or made any calls for people to vote one way or the other.

Exhibit A:

mat catastrophe: Sounds like he's just drinking another flavor kool-aid.

"both sidez are teh badz..."

Doesn't mean I don't support one. I just don't support the headline.


But the headline doesn't indicate he's drinking a different kool-aid, it says "guess what happened". And if you RTFA you'll find that he's not become a Democrat, he's starting taking a more thoughtful view of issues, and doing more research to come to his own conclusions.

Your comment indicates you guessed that 'what happened' was that he became a Democrat, it's that he's taking a break from kool-aid altogether.

Seeing you make that leap is presumably what caused people to peg you as a BSABSVR guy.
 
2012-07-03 04:23:49 AM  
Clicked site..
Got unavoidable spam on my HTC..
Resolved never to click on politico again..
The end..
 
2012-07-03 05:43:00 AM  

simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?



There's a theory that trauma arrests development. There's another one that grammar and language must be learned before puberty.

You picked age 12 as the cut-off, I will suggest child abuse is the problem. I wonder if statistically more militant conservatives (esp. those who hold protest signs with handwritten delightful errors) come from a violent upbringing.

/stop the cycle of violence
 
2012-07-03 05:57:27 AM  

skullkrusher: A Dark Evil Omen: Yeah, when I was a young teen dumbass and thought I was going to be a millionaire by the time I was 30 I was a conservative too, then I grew up and got a job.

and became a socialist. Maybe you're a bad example of people's politics maturing with age?


What generally seems to happen as people age is that their opinions become more moderate. You come to realize that no set of political, economic, or philosophical theories is entirely satisfactory insofar as actually meeting human needs.
Political extemism (for me anyway) becomes harder and harder to embrace as one acquires more and more knowledge of the real world, and learn (usually the hard way) that what works on paper rarely works as well in real life.
What we call the "wisdom" of old age is simply the loss of certainty.
 
2012-07-03 06:50:32 AM  
Wait, he was 13 in 2009, and 3 years later he's "grown up"?

So he's living independently, working, paying bills, managing work and school, owns a car and a house, and maintains mature relationships?
 
2012-07-03 07:05:57 AM  
Yes, he grew up and at the ripe age age of 17, embraces progressivism

When you're 17, you dont know what the hell to think - you only have opinions on what you think affects you. The impact of political decisions is pretty much a mosquito buzzing around your head. you're aware of it but in the end it wont kill you or ruin your day.

Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.
 
2012-07-03 07:17:00 AM  
Conservatism is the ideology of selfish children.
 
2012-07-03 07:20:20 AM  

o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.


I've been working 35 years and have yet to become a selfish fark.
 
2012-07-03 07:23:06 AM  

o5iiawah: Yes, he grew up and at the ripe age age of 17, embraces progressivism

When you're 17, you dont know what the hell to think - you only have opinions on what you think affects you. The impact of political decisions is pretty much a mosquito buzzing around your head. you're aware of it but in the end it wont kill you or ruin your day.

Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.


Maybe- maybe Not. It's pretty certain that his political views are a work in progress. He has gone from the ecxtreme right to a moderate conservative position - he may continue to gravitate in a leftist direction, he may not.
Either way, if he is a mentally healthy, normal person, it is most likely that his views will become less extreme as he matures.
 
2012-07-03 08:08:47 AM  
So a 17 year old kid is now more mature than the rest of the GOP combined?

/Not sure whether that's more funny than sad but still I'mma choose to laugh here.
 
2012-07-03 08:13:37 AM  

Without Fail: o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.

I've been working 35 years and have yet to become a selfish fark.


Heh... I'm 41 and, if anything, I've gotten more "liberal" in my political views.

Hell, these days, thanks in part to the sheer unhinged lunacy coming from the GOP, I'm pretty much a Democratic Socialist.
 
2012-07-03 08:26:02 AM  
In the office one of my coworkers is super free republic conservative. He's worked here for 30 years and one day some old employee came in to see him. I heard the guy say "He's been the same for 30 years" like it was a compliment. To me that was the worst possible thing anyone could say about me. To not have changed a single belief in 30 years? That shows no growth. I'm 27 now, if at 57 I am exactly the same that means either I've already got it all figured out or I'm just not thinking. I doubt I have it all figured out.

/good for the kid
//csb
 
2012-07-03 08:52:40 AM  

randomjsa: I find it down right amusing that we have a 17 year old going on about how much he now knows compared to when he was 13.

I can be consistent in this because I said back when he was 13 that it didn't really mean anything. I remember watching conservatives gush over this kid back then and thinking how much it reminded me of watching people gush over the "born again christian" kids that same age.

By the way one does not suddenly start "thinking for themselves" just because they start agreeing with liberals.


And 17 is not "grown up".
 
2012-07-03 09:00:11 AM  

o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.


I grew up in a very conservative family. I became a liberal around the same age as this kid did. I'm 28 now, and have only been unemployed for a grand total of 6 months since I turned 14. Yes, 14. I worked farm jobs growing up. Then worked at a place 40 minutes each way when I turned 16.

Conservatism isn't just something you pick up when you start to pay taxes. It's something you revert back to when you don't want to grow up and be a responsible and productive member of society.
 
2012-07-03 09:05:52 AM  

Lernaeus: Wait, he was 13 in 2009, and 3 years later he's "grown up"?

So he's living independently, working, paying bills, managing work and school, owns a car and a house, and maintains mature relationships?


Well, he sold quite a few copies of that book, so he's at least as grown-up as Ayn Rand was.

If he's not paying his own bills despite his book sales, he's even more like her.
 
2012-07-03 09:10:58 AM  

Without Fail: o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.

I've been working 35 years and have yet to become a selfish fark.

 
2012-07-03 09:13:59 AM  
This is why we must follow the lead of Texas and eliminate any critical thinking curriculum from schools. After all, if the children learn to think and question what they hear and see, what is the future of the GOP?
 
2012-07-03 09:14:42 AM  

CorporatePerson: When I was 13 I was super conservative too. Turns out I was just angry that I couldn't get any girls and wasn't invited to cool parties with drugs and alcohol so I wanted to pretend I was morally superior to my peers.


Same with me except substitute catholic for conservative. Nowadays I'm an apostate lib, and up to my elbows in alcohol and hot internet ladies.
 
2012-07-03 09:31:48 AM  
Hilarious. Although it isn't surprising that this kid changed his mind from the time he was 13 to the time he is 16, it shouldn't be surprising if he changes his mind again when he's 19 and 25 and 38.

Serves the CPAC right for trotting out a 13 year old, anyway.

Also, FWIW - nietzsche, kant, etc. at 16? This kid sounds like he's probably a pretentious douche, regardless of being right wing or left wing.
 
2012-07-03 09:39:22 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Hilarious. Although it isn't surprising that this kid changed his mind from the time he was 13 to the time he is 16, it shouldn't be surprising if he changes his mind again when he's 19 and 25 and 38.

Serves the CPAC right for trotting out a 13 year old, anyway.

Also, FWIW - nietzsche, kant, etc. at 16? This kid sounds like he's probably a pretentious douche, regardless of being right wing or left wing.


We are all pretending to be something we are not.
 
2012-07-03 09:42:53 AM  

kid_icarus: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Maybe there is hope for the youngest among us after all.

Absolutely. As the kid pointed out...a 13 year old is basically just parroting what he has heard from his community. He isn't old enough to have really developed critical thinking skills and formed opinions of his own. Myself, and lots of other kids from very conservative backgrounds, manage to evolve beyond that as we get older.


Some of us never progress mentally past 13. Which is good for Rush Limbaugh, who relies on 13-year-olds.
 
2012-07-03 09:46:15 AM  

keylock71: Without Fail: o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam. The swing back around is inevitable.

I've been working 35 years and have yet to become a selfish fark.

Heh... I'm 41 and, if anything, I've gotten more "liberal" in my political views.

Hell, these days, thanks in part to the sheer unhinged lunacy coming from the GOP, I'm pretty much a Democratic Socialist.


I've never voted for a GOP candidate for president or senate, but I'm being pushed to the right by the idiocy of the far left I see on fark everyday.

I'm still planning to vote for Obama this November (I dont mind Romney but think Obama's done a pretty good job considering, and has avoided being too left wing), but it is refreshing to abandon the "party first" mentality that I admit I've been guilty of since about the GOP lewinsky witch trial
nonsense.
 
2012-07-03 09:50:29 AM  

BMulligan: By the way, in 1972 I was ringing doorbells for Richard Nixon. By 1976, I was one of the few liberals in the state of Idaho. This kid's evolution is very familiar to me. And for those of you who think age will inevitably bring him back to conservatism, I wouldn't be so sure. At the age of 51, I'm probably more liberal than ever. For me, having a career, owning property, and raising a child all served to reinforce my liberalism.


Speaking as someone who worked the polls for Reagan back in 1988 and manned a phone bank for Obama in 2008, I'm right there with you. Having to deal with complex problems where the answers don't seem to match up with dogma (from either side) forces you to actually think, or at least it should.

That said, it's only part that I've become more liberal, it's that the political landscape has shifted so far right that anything seems liberal these days. It's worth remembering that "Obamacare" was dreamed up by the conservative Heritage Foundation, supported by Newt Gingrich and first implemented by Mitt Romney. Now it's the leftiest left ELEVENTY!!!! socialisum that there ever has been. Obama's stimulus package was 40% tax cuts, but since they didn't go to the "job creators" they are worthless. Environmental conservation has long been a conservative goal (and it's IMHO the most obvious one)- it has a long history with presidents like Teddy Roosevelt and Richard Nixon, except today the EPA is the devil's work.
 
2012-07-03 09:50:57 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Also, FWIW - nietzsche, kant, etc. at 16? This kid sounds like he's probably a pretentious douche, regardless of being right wing or left wing.


Any half-bright 16-year old is likely to be reading some philosophy. Just because you and your friends were still reading Archie comics doesn't mean that the rest of us weren't a bit more intellectually curious.

Oh, and for the record - Ayn Rand doesn't count as philosophy.
 
2012-07-03 09:51:10 AM  
Ignorance is taught.
 
2012-07-03 09:51:42 AM  

intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

Percentage of young people who vote


Always dismaying, but to be quite frank, can you blame young people for thinking their vote is worthless? Look at the jokers who run for office.

School test scores

Haven't seen the figures here. Can you provide them, preferably in a metric that could compare easily to previous generations?

Declining viewership of all types of news media (except entertainment news like The Daily Show because, like I said earlier, obsessed with entertainment)

Please. The Daily Show is the hardest news on TV. That's not praise for The Daily Show, mind, but condemnation for the ongoing joke that is TV news.

Large twitter and facebook users

And...?

Large viewership of mindless entertainment on tv like Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, etc.

American Idol's largest demographic is 35-49 year olds. Dancing with the Stars skews even older. Hardly the damning condemnation of young people you think it is.
 
2012-07-03 09:52:42 AM  

insano: fusillade762: NURBS: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

There's still hope for the younger generation.

/ex-conservative

Still hope for the younger generation? You mean the generation that is accepting of all lifestyles, is in favor of healthcare for all, cares about the environment, wants to end the unproductive war on drugs, doesn't try to control women's bodies, and actually cares about other people? The generation that didn't spend all their children's money, didn't crash the economy by creating bubble after bubble and then refuse to accept any responsibility, and didn't demand more tax cuts for themselves and less money for education for their kids? That generation? Yeah, I think that generation is going to be just fine.

I wouldn't be so certain about that. Seems younger voters may be starting to skew right. Something about coming of age in a recession.

Pres. Obama's Weakening Grip on Young Voters Could Cost Him Election

So, reading this article, I found a bunch of anecdotal interviews and one cited poll which found that Obama is dominating among one group of youths slightly less than among the other groups of young voters. Oh and that group, which is apparently an 'opportunity for Romney,' is 18-24 year olds who don't vote anyways.


And furthermore, I don't think, even if there were ALL to vote, that voting for the conservative choice is the way to show your disdain for the democrat who isn't liberal enough. Wait til they learn to appreciate pragmatism a little more, and possibly develop a deeper understanding of US civics.

The GOP is *counting* on these pipe dreams. That if they stay their course, they'll pick up some voters. I ... am finding it increasingly difficult to believe that the major players in the party aren't deliberately sabotaging its future for some reason. Perhaps a sacrifice to thin the veil between reality and the Immaterium so they can call on the unholy powers of The Warp and subjugate humanity to the whims of Chaos? Hard to say.

/Lesson to 20 somethings: You cain't always git whatchu wa-ant.
 
2012-07-03 09:53:22 AM  

OgreMagi: I will repeat, the POVERTY rate has remained pretty much the same since the mid-60s. And yes, the war on poverty was intended to eliminate the problem. It hasn't. It is running in place. It's time to reassess things and figure out what can be done to eliminate poverty.


Cut taxes to the rich and eliminate minimal wage laws, medicaid, and welfare.
 
2012-07-03 09:54:56 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: OgreMagi: I will repeat, the POVERTY rate has remained pretty much the same since the mid-60s. And yes, the war on poverty was intended to eliminate the problem. It hasn't. It is running in place. It's time to reassess things and figure out what can be done to eliminate poverty.

Cut taxes to the rich and eliminate minimal wage laws, medicaid, and welfare.


After all, if we kill all the poor people, we don't have to worry about poor people any more!
 
2012-07-03 09:55:08 AM  
Well duh. Look at his effeminate features. He was bound to go liberal.
 
2012-07-03 09:56:47 AM  

BMulligan: Debeo Summa Credo: Also, FWIW - nietzsche, kant, etc. at 16? This kid sounds like he's probably a pretentious douche, regardless of being right wing or left wing.

Any half-bright 16-year old is likely to be reading some philosophy. Just because you and your friends were still reading Archie comics doesn't mean that the rest of us weren't a bit more intellectually curious.

Oh, and for the record - Ayn Rand doesn't count as philosophy.


You sound like a pretentious douche, too.

Who mentioned anything about Ayn Rand?
 
2012-07-03 10:10:47 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Wait, so he was 13 when he gave that speech, and he's 17 now and has gotten better, but the speech was given in 2010, so...?


He borrowed President Fart's time machine.

I had my own unfortunate period of infatuation with the writings of Ayn Rand. Luckily nobody let me speak at a national convention.
 
2012-07-03 10:19:55 AM  

intelligent comment below: COMALite J: skullkrusher: intelligent comment below: I classify an entire generation based on many factors.

first half of the first sentence. Dead giveaway that you were, once again, going to put the lie to your Fark handle

Now, now, his FARK handle is not a lie. It just refers to the comments below his own (generally those Replying to and refuting his). Note that it doesn't say how far "below" the intelligent comment is to be found.


I was wondering how long it would take for his support group to show up

Typical troll tactics: Don't debate person's posts, just insult them


yeah, it's the trolls against you, the brave, solitary light of truth in the wilderness. When someone calls you out on your asshattery, it is because he is trolling. If there are more than one, it's because they are alts. Sweet cocoon, brah.
 
2012-07-03 10:22:10 AM  

topcon: [images.politico.com image 605x328][wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 350x262]


Hey, nice catch. Smart. Good eye. Thanks for sharing. Just one thing, though.

It's already the VERY FIRST GODDAMN IMAGE AT THE TOP OF THE THREAD.
 
2012-07-03 10:41:45 AM  
i.imgur.com


media.celebremix.com
 
2012-07-03 10:49:16 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: You sound like a pretentious douche, too.


Yeah, all that book-learnin' is pretty pretentious.
 
2012-07-03 11:05:07 AM  

Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate


lol
 
2012-07-03 11:16:37 AM  

Felgraf: GleeUnit: simsite9: What's funny is that almost every reason he gives for his shift is ultimately an insult to CPAC types.

"I've matured."
"I've given it more thought."
"The issues are so complex, you can't just go with some ideological mantra for each substantive issue."

The larger question is, why does about 25% of the population get stuck at 12 years old with a simplistic view of the world, and never move on?

Because thinking for yourself and questioning your surroundings is scary.

Lots of people really like their bubbles - a safe place where they can convince themselves that they've got it all figured out, and then tune their TV to a station that consistently reinforces that belief. Willful, blissful ignorance seems like it would probably be a very comfortable way to exist. Glad to see this kid was able to break out of that.

Aye. The thought that perhaps everything you knew was wrong, everything you'd been taught was incorrect.. that's goddamn TERRIFYING for a lot of people. So they refuse to acknowledge it as a possibility.



No..the problem is that people believe that there is a singular "right" answer. and that if the other side would "just listen" the right answer could be explained...There isn't one right answer there are several right answers.....or maybe there are no right answers.

android vs iphone
Vanilla vs. chocolate
Tupac vs. Biggy

There isn't a "correct choice" only a best fit for you...

/Do not try to bend the spoon - that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth: there is no spoon.
 
2012-07-03 11:16:38 AM  

More_Like_A_Stain: Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate

lol


I misspelled it again didn't I? Yep, just checked. You'd think my yo-yo brain could retain the spelling of one simple word.

Senile Sally can't spell. Silly, senile Sally.
I wish I were clever enough to come up with something relevant using Luna.
 
2012-07-03 11:19:56 AM  

JerseyTim: Here's the earliest thread I could find about him.

Here's Jon Stewart at the time. (And a Fark thread on that, too.)


An Archivist is something I wish I could be. Good on you. Thanks for those links.
 
2012-07-03 11:55:25 AM  

More_Like_A_Stain: Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate

lol


Actually, that is a word (albeit misspelled). Illiterate means unable to read, aliterate means unwilling to read.
 
2012-07-03 12:07:25 PM  
Parents who make their kids parrot what they think piss me off. I almost voted for Scott Walker a few weeks back out of spite due to the number of protestors picketing with their kids holding signs saying "Vote for Barrett to save my education".
 
2012-07-03 12:12:32 PM  

OgreMagi: Gwyrddu: OgreMagi: But I also don't want my money thrown down the black hole of social programs that haven't fixed any problems. I'm not an evil bastard, so I don't want to cut off aid to single moms (or dads) who are struggling to feed their kids, but I also don't like those (rare) baby factories who see welfare as their career.

What's your solution then that doesn't involve spending more money? If you cut welfare programs then they these programs will become worse at getting help to the people who need.

Welfare isn't designed to solve poverty or unemployment, that is well beyond the reach the program (and in most states cash assistance has been capped at least since Bill Clinton reformed the program). The different welfare programs are meant to keep people are meant to give people who have fallen through the cracks the basic necessities of survival while being uncomfortable enough that nobody with other options chooses to be on it, and which they do.

/I made a whole post about working a volunteer science GED teacher and seeing all the people with larger problems falling through the cracks that were beyond my help, but my computer ate my post and I don't feel like typing it all out again.

Part of the problem is lack of education. I don't mean shiatty public schools. I mean an education designed to train you for real work. It was a mistake for our society to put all the emphasis on getting a college education and pretty much ignoring trade and technical schools. I would not have a problem with tax money being spent on a real program to give people a free ride in a trade school that has potential (not those rip-off online courses). For this to work well, the money would have to be enough for the person to go to school full time and not have to worry about buying food and paying rent. A two year trade school program of this nature would be expensive, but in the long run it would pay off dividends in reducing poverty, crime, and despair.

Another problem, esp ...


No, the "idiot left" know that those people simply won't starve quietly, they'll steal things, requiring more police, more public defenders, and more prisons, costing 10X the pittance they were living off of before. Much like changing your oil, its an upfront cost to prevent an even larger more expensive problem.
 
2012-07-03 12:14:51 PM  

Robespierre: No, the "idiot left" know that those people simply won't starve quietly, they'll steal things, requiring more police, more public defenders, and more prisons, costing 10X the pittance they were living off of before. Much like changing your oil, its an upfront cost to prevent an even larger more expensive problem.


Now he's going to accuse you of "threatening" him by pointing out human nature. Just watch.
 
2012-07-03 01:06:05 PM  
aaahhhhh yes, 17, the age of wisdom.

seriously? people are twice as retarded at 17 than they are at 13.

let me know what he thinks when hes 30.
 
2012-07-03 03:07:39 PM  

HeartBurnKid: More_Like_A_Stain: Lunaville: Yes, personal experience is completely irrelevant when you are accusing an entire generation of being alliterate

lol

Actually, that is a word (albeit misspelled). Illiterate means unable to read, aliterate means unwilling to read.


I thought he was implying that every member of the generation had names which began with the same letter.
 
2012-07-03 03:24:06 PM  

o5iiawah: Wait until this kid has a job and works Monday and Tuesday just for Uncle Sam.


How cute. Another libertarian who thinks all the services around him should just be handed to him for free because he's an entitled douche
 
2012-07-03 03:28:20 PM  

HeartBurnKid: American Idol's largest demographic is 35-49 year olds. Dancing with the Stars skews even older. Hardly the damning condemnation of young people you think it is.



Did you even read the ratings?

Men 18-34 - 2nd and 5th

Men 18-49 - 1st and 2nd

Persons 12-34 - 1 and 2

Kids 2-11 - 4th
 
2012-07-03 03:54:36 PM  

intelligent comment below: HeartBurnKid: American Idol's largest demographic is 35-49 year olds. Dancing with the Stars skews even older. Hardly the damning condemnation of young people you think it is.


Did you even read the ratings?

Men 18-34 - 2nd and 5th

Men 18-49 - 1st and 2nd

Persons 12-34 - 1 and 2

Kids 2-11 - 4th


Are you still prattling on about those shows no one watches? We have moved on to my complete inability to spell. Try to keep up.
 
2012-07-03 04:58:29 PM  

BMulligan: Oh, and for the record - Ayn Rand doesn't count as philosophy.


Maybe not the novels. However, I'd say "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" and "The Virtue of Selfishness" would definitely qualify as philosophy -- albeit really incompetent philosophy.

HeartBurnKid: Illiterate means unable to read, aliterate means unwilling to read.


What a useful word.
 
2012-07-03 05:11:38 PM  

abb3w: BMulligan: Oh, and for the record - Ayn Rand doesn't count as philosophy.

Maybe not the novels. However, I'd say "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" and "The Virtue of Selfishness" would definitely qualify as philosophy -- albeit really incompetent philosophy.



Gives me yet another opportunity to requote this gem:
"St. Petersburg in revolt gave us Vladimir Nabokov, Isaiah Berlin and Ayn Rand. The first was a novelist, the second a philosopher. The third was neither but thought she was both. Many other people have thought so too." - from "Garbage and Gravitas," by Corey Robin (The Nation, 7 June 2010)

And that's just the beginning. Article is worth reading.
 
2012-07-03 06:04:04 PM  

Lunaville: Are you still prattling on about those shows no one watches?



No one watches those shows? The viewership says otherwise, but okay.
 
2012-07-03 06:51:25 PM  
"Krohn is bucking the received wisdom that people become more conservative as they get older..."

I'd really like to know the source of this "received wisdom".
(And who funded the "wisdom" studies.)
Seriously.
 
2012-07-03 10:17:50 PM  

intelligent comment below: HeartBurnKid: American Idol's largest demographic is 35-49 year olds. Dancing with the Stars skews even older. Hardly the damning condemnation of young people you think it is.


Did you even read the ratings?

Men 18-34 - 2nd and 5th

Men 18-49 - 1st and 2nd

Persons 12-34 - 1 and 2

Kids 2-11 - 4th


Did you?

People age 35-49 watched American Idol Season 7 the most, making up almost 29% of the total audience.

The five most popular shows among adults ages 50 and over: Dancing With the Stars (ABC, 13.8 million), followed by...
 
2012-07-03 10:41:47 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Conservatism isn't just something you pick up when you start to pay taxes. It's something you revert back to when you don't want to grow up and be a responsible and productive member of society.


Liberalism is predicated on the fallacy that regardless of how much time and money an individual contributes to his family, church, community, county, or state, he isn't a productive member of society if he's paying less than 40% of his income in taxes to the federal government.

intelligent comment below: How cute. Another libertarian who thinks all the services around him should just be handed to him for free because he's an entitled douche


I never said anything of the sort, asshole.
 
2012-07-04 12:47:13 AM  

runcible spork: And that's just the beginning. Article is worth reading.


Seems to give Ayn Rand less credit as a philosopher than she deserves. A sociopathic philosopher of a sociopathic philosophy seems a philosopher, still.

Being "wrong" doesn't make her not a philosopher.
 
2012-07-04 01:11:54 AM  

o5iiawah: Liberalism is predicated on the fallacy that regardless of how much time and money an individual contributes to his family, church, community, county, or state, he isn't a productive member of society if he's paying less than 40% of his income in taxes to the federal government.


You forgot the UN.

o5iiawah: I never said anything of the sort, asshole.


True; it's the benefits that aren't immediately proximate to you (in space, time, or recognizability) that you seem to have objected to.
 
2012-07-04 01:23:40 AM  

o5iiawah: cameroncrazy1984: Conservatism isn't just something you pick up when you start to pay taxes. It's something you revert back to when you don't want to grow up and be a responsible and productive member of society.

Liberalism is predicated on the fallacy that regardless of how much time and money an individual contributes to his family, church, community, county, or state, he isn't a productive member of society if he's paying less than 40% of his income in taxes to the federal government.

intelligent comment below: How cute. Another libertarian who thinks all the services around him should just be handed to him for free because he's an entitled douche

I never said anything of the sort, asshole.


If you didn't say "anything of the sort," it's a safe bet you said something else at least as inane. Pretty sure the TOP rate is well below 40%, isn't it? So what are you blathering about now? Everything you type smells like ass, so it's no wonder that people point and laugh at you. Coming from you, "asshole" has to be a compliment or some sort of endearment.

But by all means, keep telling yourself it's because you're not a liberal that people here mock you.
 
2012-07-04 04:53:11 PM  

o5iiawah: I never said anything of the sort, asshole.



Yes you did, you complained and lied about how much of a percentage in taxes you paid.

If you are paying 50% of your income then that means you make hundreds of thousands a year.

If you make that much, you are using a lot of government services and the cost is in line with that.

Most people pay around 30% of their income, and that goes to the cost of all the services available to make your life easy. Clean streets, water, power, police and fire, health inspectors, etc etc etc
 
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