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(Spiegel)   'Miss Holocaust Survivor' beauty pageant held in Israel   (spiegel.de ) divider line
    More: Strange, Holocaust, Holocaust survivors, beauty contests, Israeli government, SPIEGEL, umbrella organization  
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7945 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2012 at 1:06 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-03 05:20:55 PM  
I got afew minutes, so I will go ahead and point out your lies, again, so I can just link to it next time.

Uncle Tractor: It's like I'm talking to a wall here. Sure,their life expectancy etc has improved. I'm not arguing against that. What I'm arguing against is that Israel somehow deserves the credit for this. Not only that, but each time I ask you to explain why you think Israel deserves credit for this, despite all the shiat they're putting the palestinians through, you ignore it and return to your broken record.


I am not trying to argue they "deserve" credit. I am pointing out the very real fact the undeniable fact that under Nazi Germany million sof jews were killed, they had their citizenship removed and all objective measure of quality of life went down, in stark contrast to what has happened to Palestinians. So any comparison to Nazi Germany is factually wrong, and only supported by the ignorant or liars.

Uncle Tractor: No, before 1941. Before 1941, Germany wanted the jews out, just like today's Israel wants the arabs out. After 1941, Germany wanted the jews dead. Thus the gas chambers.


First off if that was truly what you meant with the Nazi comparisons you would still agree that all association with the language of the holocaust (concentration camps, etc) is wrong, but seeing as how you chimed in supporting Amos that shows that is not what you meant. Of course that level of dishonesty is par for the course with you

Also it doesn't pass the BS test. When people talk about Nazi Germany they aren't bent out of shape because of what happened before 1941. It is because of the holocaust. Your comparison is like people who say those that want to take gun rights are like the Nazi's. Yes they took guns, but that isn't what people associate with Nazi's.

Also your comparison is flat out wrong because after 1941 things got worse for jews, whereas in Israel the rights of (and the % of the population who are) arab muslims is increasing. What is the point of bringing up Nazi's other than to prevent the next step? What is unique about Nazi's other than that next step? Bringing it up at all is dogwhistle politics, and you know that.

Uncle Tractor: Does "israeli muslims" include the people in the WB and Gaza? Does "Israel" include the WB and Gaza?


No. And personally I think they should get out, however after the showers of rockets and attacks since the pulled all their people out of Gaza, I can see how that is a tough to impossible sell politically.
 
2012-07-03 06:59:16 PM  

Uncle Tractor: Germany wanted the jews out, just like today's Israel wants the arabs out.


The other huge flaw with your comparison here is looking at it in a vacuum.
German jews fought for Germany in WWI. They supported the state of Germany. Palestinians and Israel? Not so much. Now you could make the argument in 1948 that jews had no right to be there but (aside form being racist*) since 1948 Palestinians have worked against Israel, elected groups whose platform is to wipe out all the jews, etc, and even an anti-Semitic nut like yourself can't compare the actions of jews in 1941 Germany to that.


*yes arguing that a group, because of ethnicity have no right to buy land, live in a place or have the same rights as their neighbors to form a govt is racist.
 
2012-07-04 02:53:14 AM  

liam76: I got afew minutes, so I will go ahead and point out your lies, again, so I can just link to it next time.

I am not trying to argue they "deserve" credit. I am pointing out the very real fact the undeniable fact that under Nazi Germany million sof jews were killed, they had their citizenship removed and all objective measure of quality of life went down, in stark contrast to what has happened to Palestinians. So any comparison to Nazi Germany is factually wrong, and only supported by the ignorant or liars.


Apart from the whole ethnic cleansing / land grab / state racism / lebensraum thing, you mean?

Uncle Tractor: No, before 1941. Before 1941, Germany wanted the jews out, just like today's Israel wants the arabs out. After 1941, Germany wanted the jews dead. Thus the gas chambers.

First off if that was truly what you meant with the Nazi comparisons you would still agree that all association with the language of the holocaust (concentration camps, etc) is wrong, but seeing as how you chimed in supporting Amos that shows that is not what you meant. Of course that level of dishonesty is par for the course with you

Also it doesn't pass the BS test. When people talk about Nazi Germany they aren't bent out of shape because of what happened before 1941. It is because of the holocaust.

The holocaust didn't begin with the gas chambers. It started immediately after the nazis came to power. The gas chambers were merely the "climax."

Your comparison is like people who say those that want to take gun rights are like the Nazi's. Yes they took guns, but that isn't what people associate with Nazi's.

People who think the Holocaust was nothing but the gas chambers don't know their history. Besides, I believe I've mentioned several times that I'm talking about Germany *before* 1941, so I don't see why you keep bringing it up.

I suppose it's because you need a strawman to attack.

The main thing about the nazis is the Lebensraum mentality. The gas chambers were just a consequence of that mentality. Zionism is based on the same ideas, and that makes the comparison a valid one. The fact that people like you only associate nazis with gas chambers and gun control (really? you sound like a gun nut) says more about you than anything else.

Also your comparison is flat out wrong because after 1941 things got worse for jews, whereas in Israel the rights of (and the % of the population who are) arab muslims is increasing.

Paper rights are worthless.

What is the point of bringing up Nazi's other than to prevent the next step?

See, that "next step" is what worries me. What will happen to the official israeli arabs (the ones outside Gaza and the WB) when their numbers become politically significant?

What is unique about Nazi's other than that next step? Bringing it up at all is dogwhistle politics, and you know that.

There's that strawman again.

Uncle Tractor: Does "israeli muslims" include the people in the WB and Gaza? Does "Israel" include the WB and Gaza?

No.


Why not? Israel seems to think the land they live on belongs to Israel, and the people who live on it go with it.

And personally I think they should get out, however after the showers of rockets and attacks since the pulled all their people out of Gaza, I can see how that is a tough to impossible sell politically.

Which again leads to the one-state solution.
 
2012-07-04 02:56:49 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: Germany wanted the jews out, just like today's Israel wants the arabs out.

The other huge flaw with your comparison here is looking at it in a vacuum.
German jews fought for Germany in WWI. They supported the state of Germany. Palestinians and Israel? Not so much.


You seem to have difficulty wrapping your head around this whole not wanting a foreign colony planted on their land thing. Not much I can do until you've understood the concept.

Now you could make the argument in 1948 that jews had no right to be there but (aside form being racist*) since 1948 Palestinians have worked against Israel, elected groups whose platform is to wipe out all the jews, etc, and even an anti-Semitic nut like yourself can't compare the actions of jews in 1941 Germany to that.

And again with the childish ad hominems.

*yes arguing that a group, because of ethnicity have no right to buy land, live in a place or have the same rights as their neighbors to form a govt is racist.

This isn't about buying land. It's about creating a new homeland in somebody else's land, and you know it. Yet you keep hammering away with the same old discredited arguments, over and over.
 
2012-07-04 05:36:59 AM  

Uncle Tractor: liam76: I got afew minutes, so I will go ahead and point out your lies, again, so I can just link to it next time.

I am not trying to argue they "deserve" credit. I am pointing out the very real fact the undeniable fact that under Nazi Germany million sof jews were killed, they had their citizenship removed and all objective measure of quality of life went down, in stark contrast to what has happened to Palestinians. So any comparison to Nazi Germany is factually wrong, and only supported by the ignorant or liars.

Apart from the whole ethnic cleansing / land grab / state racism / lebensraum thing, you mean?

Uncle Tractor: No, before 1941. Before 1941, Germany wanted the jews out, just like today's Israel wants the arabs out. After 1941, Germany wanted the jews dead. Thus the gas chambers.

First off if that was truly what you meant with the Nazi comparisons you would still agree that all association with the language of the holocaust (concentration camps, etc) is wrong, but seeing as how you chimed in supporting Amos that shows that is not what you meant. Of course that level of dishonesty is par for the course with you

Also it doesn't pass the BS test. When people talk about Nazi Germany they aren't bent out of shape because of what happened before 1941. It is because of the holocaust.

The holocaust didn't begin with the gas chambers. It started immediately after the nazis came to power. The gas chambers were merely the "climax."

Your comparison is like people who say those that want to take gun rights are like the Nazi's. Yes they took guns, but that isn't what people associate with Nazi's.

People who think the Holocaust was nothing but the gas chambers don't know their history. Besides, I believe I've mentioned several times that I'm talking about Germany *before* 1941, so I don't see why you keep bringing it up.

I suppose it's because you need a strawman to attack.

The main thing about the nazis is the Lebensraum mentality. The gas chambers were just a consequence of that mentality. Zionism is based on the same ideas, and that makes the comparison a valid one. The fact that people like you only associate nazis with gas chambers and gun control (really? you sound like a gun nut) says more about you than anything else.

Also your comparison is flat out wrong because after 1941 things got worse for jews, whereas in Israel the rights of (and the % of the population who are) arab muslims is increasing.

Paper rights are worthless.

What is the point of bringing up Nazi's other than to prevent the next step?

See, that "next step" is what worries me. What will happen to the official israeli arabs (the ones outside Gaza and the WB) when their numbers become politically significant?

What is unique about Nazi's other than that next step? Bringing it up at all is dogwhistle politics, and you know that.

There's that strawman again.

Uncle Tractor: Does "israeli muslims" include the people in the WB and Gaza? Does "Israel" include the WB and Gaza?

No.

Why not? Israel seems to think the land they live on belongs to Israel, and the people who live on it go with it.

And personally I think they should get out, however after the showers of rockets and attacks since the pulled all their people out of Gaza, I can see how that is a tough to impossible sell politically.

Which again leads to the one-state solution.


The "main thing" about nazis was leibensraum? Really? Almost every war ever fought had a big land component. For you to sit there and deny that the unique and main thing that people think of and remember them for is the Holocaust has got to be your biggest lie to date.

Even if your claim here could pass the snuff test the fact is you chimed in to support Amos who was making dire t Holocaust comparisons, so I can't buy even your twisted mind buys that.

You claim the rights of Israeli Arabs are paper with no proof and ignore the govt benefits they get their parties in Parliament etc.
 
2012-07-04 06:31:53 AM  

liam76: The "main thing" about nazis was leibensraum? Really? Almost every war ever fought had a big land component.


Kings and emperors wanting to rule more land is not the same as lebensraum.

For you to sit there and deny that the unique and main thing that people think of and remember them for is the Holocaust has got to be your biggest lie to date.

I don't give a crap what people you know remember about the Third Reich (gun control???). I'm talking about their main motivation, which was lebensraum, which is also the driving force of zionism.

Even if your claim here could pass the snuff test the fact is you chimed in to support Amos who was making dire t Holocaust comparisons,

Where did I "chime in with Amos?" Quote and link, please.

You claim the rights of Israeli Arabs are paper with no proof and ignore the govt benefits they get their parties in Parliament etc.

Yeah, they have politicians in Knesset. Now, what have those politicians managed to do on behalf of their voters? Protect them from blatant land theft? No. Give them equal rights to water? No. Give them equal education? No. Ensure equal treatment under the law? No. Prevent the apartheid wall from being built? No. They're just for show, so hasbara muppets like you can point to them and say "equal rights."

Oh, and:

Tell me why a palestinian citizen of palestine (the WB) is merely a "resident" rather than a citizen, and what authority Israel has to deny it? Is this an indirect admission that the WB is part of Israel? If so, why aren't people who've lived there their whole lives no citizens with the right to vote? Apartheid?
 
2012-07-04 07:59:36 AM  

Uncle Tractor: liam76: The "main thing" about nazis was leibensraum? Really? Almost every war ever fought had a big land component.

Kings and emperors wanting to rule more land is not the same as lebensraum.

For you to sit there and deny that the unique and main thing that people think of and remember them for is the Holocaust has got to be your biggest lie to date.

I don't give a crap what people you know remember about the Third Reich (gun control???). I'm talking about their main motivation, which was lebensraum, which is also the driving force of zionism.

Even if your claim here could pass the snuff test the fact is you chimed in to support Amos who was making dire t Holocaust comparisons,

Where did I "chime in with Amos?" Quote and link, please.

You claim the rights of Israeli Arabs are paper with no proof and ignore the govt benefits they get their parties in Parliament etc.

Yeah, they have politicians in Knesset. Now, what have those politicians managed to do on behalf of their voters? Protect them from blatant land theft? No. Give them equal rights to water? No. Give them equal education? No. Ensure equal treatment under the law? No. Prevent the apartheid wall from being built? No. They're just for show, so hasbara muppets like you can point to them and say "equal rights."

Oh, and:

Tell me why a palestinian citizen of palestine (the WB) is merely a "resident" rather than a citizen, and what authority Israel has to deny it? Is this an indirect admission that the WB is part of Israel? If so, why aren't people who've lived there their whole lives no citizens with the right to vote? Apartheid?


I am on my phone i cant directly quote the bs highlights in this post but "their voters" are Israeli citizens. All your claims of water, wall etc don't apply to Israeli citizens because Palestinians donvite in Israel.

Ten farking posts on and you are pretending Israeli citizens and Palestinians are the same thing.
 
2012-07-04 01:13:54 PM  

liam76: Ten farking posts on and you are pretending Israeli citizens and Palestinians are the same thing.


They are, when Uncle Tractor wants them to be. They are also completely different, when Uncle Tractor wants them to be.

---

The needle went up to sixty. "How many fingers, Winston?"

"Five! Five! Fivel"

"No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?"

"Four! Five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!"

Abruptly he was sitting up with O'Brien's arm round his shoulders. He had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds.... He felt very cold, he was shaking uncontrollably.... For a moment he clung to O'Brien like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round his shoulders. He had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it.

"You are a slow learner, Winston," said O'Brien gently.

"How can I help it?" he blubbered. "How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four."

"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes. they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane."

-- George Orwell, 1984
 
2012-07-04 01:36:54 PM  

Tatterdemalian: liam76: Ten farking posts on and you are pretending Israeli citizens and Palestinians are the same thing.

They are, when Uncle Tractor wants them to be. They are also completely different, when Uncle Tractor wants them to be.

---

The needle went up to sixty. "How many fingers, Winston?"

"Five! Five! Fivel"

"No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?"

"Four! Five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!"

Abruptly he was sitting up with O'Brien's arm round his shoulders. He had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds.... He felt very cold, he was shaking uncontrollably.... For a moment he clung to O'Brien like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round his shoulders. He had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it.

"You are a slow learner, Winston," said O'Brien gently.

"How can I help it?" he blubbered. "How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four."

"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes. they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane."

-- George Orwell, 1984


Careful, you can get accused of being a hyperbolic liar to draw conclusions from conveniently arbitrarily used facts
 
2012-07-04 01:40:56 PM  

liam76: I am on my phone i cant directly quote the bs highlights in this post but "their voters" are Israeli citizens. All your claims of water, wall etc don't apply to Israeli citizens because Palestinians donvite in Israel.


Do WB settlers vote in israeli elections? Yes? Then why don't the palestinians get to vote as well?

Ten farking posts on and you are pretending Israeli citizens and Palestinians are the same thing.

Yes, and I'll keep on doing that until Israel stops pretending that Gaza and the WB is part of Israel.
 
2012-07-04 02:08:53 PM  

Fano: Careful, you can get accused of being a hyperbolic liar to draw conclusions from conveniently arbitrarily used facts


I honestly don't care what they accuse me of. You'll notice I never bothered to respond to Amos Quitler's demand for proof; if I reproduced the WHO's reports he would just declare them invalid for being reposted plagarized. Really the only reason I even bother to comment is to see what bizarre leaps of logic they spew, as it tends to give away the Taliban's plans for their next wave of anti-American propaganda.
 
2012-07-04 03:03:07 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Fano: Careful, you can get accused of being a hyperbolic liar to draw conclusions from conveniently arbitrarily used facts

I honestly don't care what they accuse me of. You'll notice I never bothered to respond to Amos Quitler's demand for proof; if I reproduced the WHO's reports he would just declare them invalid for being reposted plagarized. Really the only reason I even bother to comment is to see what bizarre leaps of logic they spew, as it tends to give away the Taliban's plans for their next wave of anti-American propaganda.


I didn't and won't respond because it is apparent that endless semantics games, goalpost shifting, and Schrodinger's Cat-like shifts in logic are useless.

I just like clarifying "I'm just asking questions here" statements intended to crudely hide the a priori assumption.
 
2012-07-04 10:02:24 PM  

Uncle Tractor: liam76: I am on my phone i cant directly quote the bs highlights in this post but "their voters" are Israeli citizens. All your claims of water, wall etc don't apply to Israeli citizens because Palestinians donvite in Israel.

Do WB settlers vote in israeli elections? Yes? Then why don't the palestinians get to vote as well?

Ten farking posts on and you are pretending Israeli citizens and Palestinians are the same thing.

Yes, and I'll keep on doing that until Israel stops pretending that Gaza and the WB is part of Israel.


So you think because I lived in Indonesia (as an American ) Indonesian should be able to vote in the us?

I think I was pretty clear that I thought WB and Gaza wasn't part of Israel, of course me being clear on something never stopped you from being dishonest.
 
2012-07-05 05:35:51 AM  

liam76: Yes, and I'll keep on doing that until Israel stops pretending that Gaza and the WB is part of Israel.

So you think because I lived in Indonesia (as an American ) Indonesian should be able to vote in the us?


You are aware that there is a difference between living in a country and colonizing it, right?

Right?

I think I was pretty clear that I thought WB and Gaza wasn't part of Israel, of course me being clear on something never stopped you from being dishonest.

Oh, I know *you* think the WB and Gaza aren't part of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel doesn't agree with you.

Israel has successfully killed the two-state solution. All that's left is the one-state solution, and that means that the palestinians are de facto israelis, regardless of whether anybody wants it that way.

You might as well accept the facts on the ground; the arabs of Gaza and the WB are de facto israeli citizens.
 
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