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(Daily Mail)   Hello? Yes, this is God   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 55
    More: Cool, CERN, god, Edinburgh University, LHC, positive result, Peter Higgs, higgs particles, particle accelerators  
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29152 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jul 2012 at 11:38 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-07-01 07:49:16 PM  
12 votes:

cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you


I will probably get part of this wrong, but here is my understanding. Under the Standard Model of Quantum physics, all forces are really particles which interact with with atoms, or parts of atoms. So electricity, magnetism, nuclear forces (strong and weak) and gravity are all caused by the interaction of particles on atoms. The holy grail of physics is to find one theory which explains all 4 forces (nuclear, gravity, etc). Magnetism and electricity were actually explained as different aspects of the same force by a man named Maxwell in the 1860's. The nuclear forces were figured out in the 1920's and 30's, and they were tied to the electro-magnetic theory in 50's thru the 70's. Gravity has not been integrated into this theory. One of the problems with the particle theory of force is why do some things have mass (you, me, stars, planets, etc) while some things don't- light photons, neutrinos, and other exotic things which have been proven to exist but to the best of our measurement (which keeps getting better) do not have mass. For simplistic purposes, consider mass to be what we 'weigh' when we put something on a weight scale. Photons would not ever weigh anything, no matter how massive a planet or sun their weight was measured on. Gravity can affect these items but cannot not make them 'weigh' anything, or more accurately, have any mass. The Higgs Boson is a theoretical particle which would allow this type of behavior to occur. It is that particle which causes things to have mass, at least theoretically, by interacting with atoms or the components of atoms. Scientists were able to predict that IF the Higgs Boson existed it had to be found at a certain energy level. The Large Hadron Collider is the first man made detector capable of producing the energy required to find the Higgs Boson. If they found it within the energy range that theory predicted then it may finally allow physicists to tie gravity to the other forces. If not, then physics has a lot of 'splainin' to do.

Higgs is the name of the man who figured out what the mass/energy level of the particle which causes mass would have to be.
2012-07-02 12:03:04 AM  
4 votes:

phrawgh: Why can't all these smart people get together and pass a federal budget?


Anyone smart enough for politics is smart enough to stay out of politics.
2012-07-01 09:42:03 PM  
4 votes:

skinink: Why are we building these machines just to look for the crumbs of God?


Because we stopped building spaceships to look for His Face ...
2012-07-01 07:11:31 PM  
4 votes:
Has nothing to do with god, just someone's poor explanation for the ignorant masses.
2012-07-02 05:48:27 AM  
3 votes:

wantingout: but...but... so what gives the higgs boson ITS mass?


The short answer for why a Higgs particle has mass is the same for all other particles that have mass - interaction with the Higgs field gives it mass.

That may seem recursive, but this is clarified by understanding that it is somewhat misleading to say that Higgs particles themselves cause mass. The Higgs particle is the quantum force carrier for the Higgs field. (Like a gravitational or electromagnetic field. Only the Higgs permeates all of space.) It is the Higgs field that causes mass. Not interaction with an individual Higgs boson per se. That is, mass is a measurement of how strongly a particle interacts with the Higgs field.

So, since a Higgs particle is a quantum of a field, in the same way a photon is a quantum of an electromagnetic field, the same goes for the Higgs particle itself - it interacts with the Higgs field it is part of. Just like how a photon interacts with an electromagnetic field it is part of.
2012-07-02 12:26:08 PM  
2 votes:

J. Frank Parnell: /still a matter of refusing to question the standard model


Nobody is refusing to question the standard model. It doesn't even include gravity, for one obvious brick in the face example. So we know with certainty it is woefully incomplete. And there are several other nagging problems with it than just that one.

It is a good platform for further improvement. For now, the standard model is like the stable boring 1.0 release version, but missing a lot of features we really want. Supersymmetry models are the unstable 2.1 beta test version. String theories are in the vaporware stage for version 6.0 down the line.

The going may get tough at that point, because it is probably not a physical possibility to directly measure strings and small dimensions, like we do with particles now. We will have to start getting clever. Right now we are fumbling around with the really easy obvious stuff.
2012-07-02 12:09:51 PM  
2 votes:

El Morro: how we might be able to apply this information in a practical way? Obviously, it's going to take years and years and years of research and development, but, what are scientists talking about doing with this?

Would it be possible to manipulate the Higgs field? Are we talking about making near mass-less spacecraft for long distance travel? What's the potential here?


Well, to an extent, I'm not sure we know. It could turn out to be useless.

Think of it this way: When we first discovered electricity and magnetism (and even when we linked the two) they were... novelties. Fairly useless outside a VERY small range.

Or how the greeks figured out steam power, but didn't really use it for crap.

But now....

It's really hard to predict where discoveries will lead. That's one of the reasons we call it research, and not engineering. =)
2012-07-02 08:57:39 AM  
2 votes:

HotWingAgenda: So how exactly does this apply to faster than light interstellar travel, teleportation, instantaneous long-distance communication, human immortality, or infinite renewable energy?


OK, I will attempt to actually put the whole Higgs Boson thing into simplified terms... please note that my description could enrage an actual physicist, and I am possibly making a few assumptions here that a true scientist wouldnt.

Everything you are, and the entire world you know, is held together by electromagnetism and gravity. Electromagnetism is what makes your atoms stick together directly to each other (or what repels them). When you try to push your hand through a brick wall, and the wall stops your hand, thats electromagnetism at work.

Now, thing is, by looking at how gravity pulls at everything in the universe, we've discovered an... inconsistency. Turns out, there is a LOT more "stuff" in existence alllll around us, stuff that we humans cannot see or touch. As a matter of fact, somewhere around 83% of the universe is made up of this stuff.. we call it "dark matter". We are literally floating around in a giant, spacey ocean of dark matter. Dark matter, is not electromagnetic. Because our world is made up of electromagnetic particles... and dark matter is not, we literally just... pass through this stuff, like its not even there. BUT... we know it is there, because for some reason, it still has gravity.

So.... what are they doing at CERN? Well, basically we figure that by bashing subatomic particles together at very high speed (ie using a bunch of energy), we can break through this barrier and interact with dark matter, and dark energy. We can pop things seemingly in and out of existence. This is what scientists mostly are claiming with Higgs Boson... that we are "creating matter" or some such... creating a piece of something with more mass than you started with. My personal belief, as well as some physicists, is that we're just directly interacting with dark matter more so than creating something from nothing.

So to answer your original question... there is TONS of dark matter and dark energy allll around us, and inside us, so if we can figure out how to manipulate it in a controlled way, it truly could open up new energy sources, new methods of making things, etc etc. We really dont know, but the possibilities are incredible.

/PS dark energy is attributed to the expansion of the universe as well.... while most people view The Big Bang as an explosion, it was not... it was an expansion, and its dark energy thats pushing everything away from everything else... at the same time that gravity tries to hold us together. Which is interesting, because dark matter has gravity too. Oh, you silly universe you.
2012-07-02 05:36:14 AM  
2 votes:

Steve Zodiac: cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you

I will probably get part of this wrong, but here is my understanding. Under the Standard Model of Quantum physics, all forces are really particles which interact with with atoms, or parts of atoms. So electricity, magnetism, nuclear forces (strong and weak) and gravity are all caused by the interaction of particles on atoms. The holy grail of physics is to find one theory which explains all 4 forces (nuclear, gravity, etc). Magnetism and electricity were actually explained as different aspects of the same force by a man named Maxwell in the 1860's. The nuclear forces were figured out in the 1920's and 30's, and they were tied to the electro-magnetic theory in 50's thru the 70's. Gravity has not been integrated into this theory. One of the problems with the particle theory of force is why do some things have mass (you, me, stars, planets, etc) while some things don't- light photons, neutrinos, and other exotic things which have been proven to exist but to the best of our measurement (which keeps getting better) do not have mass. For simplistic purposes, consider mass to be what we 'weigh' when we put something on a weight scale. Photons would not ever weigh anything, no matter how massive a planet or sun their weight was measured on. Gravity can affect these items but cannot not make them 'weigh' anything, or more accurately, have any mass. The Higgs Boson is a theoretical particle which would allow this type of behavior to occur. It is that particle which causes things to have mass, at least theoretically, by interacting with atoms or the components of atoms. Scientists were able to predict that IF the Higgs Boson existed it had to be found at a certain energy level. The Large Hadron Collider is the first man made detector capable of producing the energy required to find the Higgs Boson. If they found it within the energy range that theory predicted then it may finally allow physicists to tie ...


A few things:

1. While force carriers can be envisioned as particles, they can also be envisioned as waves ala wave particle duality
2. Electricity and Magnetism were indeed combined into one force known as electromagnetism.
3, Neutrinos do have mass, but it is very very small

To fill in a bit on the Higgs Boson and how it is theorised to exist, imagine a room full of Farkers that are spread evenly across the room equally distant from all other Farkers. Now imagine that a walking beer creature enters at one side and walks across the room to the otherside. Farkers near the beer monster will then 'gravitate' towards it, and as it moves past, the farker will return to their original position. Now replace Farker with Higgs Boson and beer monster with thing that should have mass and you get a simple explanation of what the Higgs field is.
2012-07-02 01:14:44 AM  
2 votes:
My guess is they will continue research, further their peer-related reviews, and get a scientific consensus of 99.9999% of all that they've observed, and will report it accordingly.

Then we'll get to spend the next 45 years arguing over it because it's a "theory," like evolution or gravity.
2012-07-02 12:35:37 AM  
2 votes:

Steve Zodiac: Higgs is the name of the man who figured out what the mass/energy level of the particle which causes mass would have to be.


So is this Higgs Boson the elementary particle responsible for my toast always landing butter side down?

Because f*ck that particle.
2012-07-02 12:04:04 AM  
2 votes:

MasterAdkins: Has nothing to do with god, just someone's poor explanation for the ignorant masses.


Actually, it was just a victim of censorship. The physicist who coined the term actually wanted to call it "the goddamn particle," but his editor changed it.
2012-07-01 11:43:39 PM  
2 votes:
This has been reported in legitimate publications; why link to the Daily Fail? This isn't yet another story about a teacher farking a student or a girl with a mental disorder who will only eat pizza.
2012-07-01 11:42:55 PM  
2 votes:
d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net
2012-07-01 10:48:02 PM  
2 votes:
Thank Christ.

/Margaret
2012-07-01 10:43:33 PM  
2 votes:
I would be impressed if they did find God, in particular.

I'd also have a few choice words for Him.
2012-07-01 09:17:10 PM  
2 votes:
i3.kym-cdn.com

woof, woof
2012-07-01 07:39:46 PM  
2 votes:

cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you


The Daily Fail has decided to tell everyone what CERN is going to announce on Wednesday even though there's no leaked evidence that the Higgs bosun has been found.
2012-07-02 12:36:04 PM  
1 votes:

Mose: You never know though. We found a good microscopy use for quantum tunnelling, for example. I feel like engineering may be catcing up, on a macro trend kind of scale, to the that bleeding edge.


Okay, yeah, point taken. Now that you mention it, MRI scanners are another good example. We barely understand what magnetic resonance really is at the quantum level, yet we have engineered an incredibly useful practical tool from it already.
2012-07-02 11:12:02 AM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: The search had no stated end time, and given how much other stuff the LHC is looking for, there's no issues of funding or any such.


Check this out. Although you're right about it not being a matter of funding. They just have to shut it down for a year to replace magnets and whatnot.

/still a matter of refusing to question the standard model
2012-07-02 10:59:50 AM  
1 votes:
This is awesome (if it's true).

BUT...

Can anyone give a few examples of how we might be able to apply this information in a practical way? Obviously, it's going to take years and years and years of research and development, but, what are scientists talking about doing with this?

Would it be possible to manipulate the Higgs field? Are we talking about making near mass-less spacecraft for long distance travel? What's the potential here?

(please don't restrict your answer to what we can do currently... I'm talking stuff we'll be able to do with this if we can get our tech advanced enough. Say, 50-100 or so in the future)

/excited
//slightly confused
2012-07-02 09:27:49 AM  
1 votes:
God's not here, man.
2012-07-02 09:01:09 AM  
1 votes:

cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you


there has been no announcement yet, this is idle speculation, come back Wednesday
2012-07-02 07:15:19 AM  
1 votes:

tchjdaedn: phrawgh: Why can't all these smart people get together and pass a federal budget?

Anyone smart enough for politics is smart enough to stay out of politics.


Personally, I think elected office should be more like Jury Duty. Who serves is picked at random from the voter roles.
2012-07-02 06:01:46 AM  
1 votes:

J. Frank Parnell: Since this is so close to when the search was scheduled to end, and they claimed they'd have found it by now, i'm expecting it to be a sales pitch for more funding and time. If you think it's hard to find jobs with a BA, try looking for work as a particle physicist. They'll say anything just to keep colliding particles there, even with numerous other colliders doing essentially the same thing.

The time would probably be better spent rethinking some aspects of the standard model, but they'll stubbornly cling to that like so many religious people do to the bible, no matter what evidence there is that it may be flawed.


In the words of Richard Feynman, "This isn't right, it isn't even wrong."
2012-07-02 02:53:31 AM  
1 votes:
So these theoretical particles, which have yet to be observed, but whose effects on other particles have been observed - is it possible that they aren't physical particles at all?

Maybe they are operating instructions. Code in other words. Information, bits and bytes, not physical at all.

God is a giant nerd.
2012-07-02 02:48:19 AM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: The Daily Fail has decided to tell everyone what CERN is going to announce on Wednesday even though there's no leaked evidence that the Higgs bosun has been found.


Last year they announced that one of the LHC detectors indicated it found it to a three sigma level of certainty, that means the data indicates it's 99.7% certain they found it. Another detector produced data that was good for 4 sigma, that's better than 99.9 percent certainly. What they want, is five sigma. And no reason to think they haven't gotten there.

J. Frank Parnell: Since this is so close to when the search was scheduled to end,


The search had no stated end time, and given how much other stuff the LHC is looking for, there's no issues of funding or any such.
2012-07-02 02:02:50 AM  
1 votes:
Also obligatory

/Tha' LHC is supa'-dupa' fly...
2012-07-02 01:37:43 AM  
1 votes:
i42.photobucket.com
2012-07-02 01:15:24 AM  
1 votes:
So how exactly does this apply to faster than light interstellar travel, teleportation, instantaneous long-distance communication, human immortality, or infinite renewable energy?
2012-07-02 01:07:25 AM  
1 votes:

J. Frank Parnell: Since this is so close to when the search was scheduled to end, and they claimed they'd have found it by now, i'm expecting it to be a sales pitch for more funding and time. If you think it's hard to find jobs with a BA, try looking for work as a particle physicist. They'll say anything just to keep colliding particles there, even with numerous other colliders doing essentially the same thing.

The time would probably be better spent rethinking some aspects of the standard model, but they'll stubbornly cling to that like so many religious people do to the bible, no matter what evidence there is that it may be flawed.


2.bp.blogspot.com
2012-07-02 01:05:52 AM  
1 votes:
Since this is so close to when the search was scheduled to end, and they claimed they'd have found it by now, i'm expecting it to be a sales pitch for more funding and time. If you think it's hard to find jobs with a BA, try looking for work as a particle physicist. They'll say anything just to keep colliding particles there, even with numerous other colliders doing essentially the same thing.

The time would probably be better spent rethinking some aspects of the standard model, but they'll stubbornly cling to that like so many religious people do to the bible, no matter what evidence there is that it may be flawed.
2012-07-02 01:03:18 AM  
1 votes:
dilbert.com
2012-07-02 12:59:46 AM  
1 votes:
but...but... so what gives the higgs boson ITS mass?
2012-07-02 12:49:18 AM  
1 votes:

MadAzza: MasterAdkins: Has nothing to do with god, just someone's poor explanation for the ignorant masses.

Gee, really? Good thing you were here to point that out.



See now you say that all sarcastically and yet:


tarheel07: So it's a particle whose existence actually disproves the existence of God? Isn't it ironic?

/dontcha think?



So yeah, maybe it was a good idea for someone to point that out right away.
2012-07-02 12:43:57 AM  
1 votes:
If you were a kid in the 1970s...
farm2.staticflickr.com
Also, this is really exciting news!
2012-07-02 12:31:57 AM  
1 votes:

phrawgh: Why can't all these smart people get together and pass a federal budget?


Unfortunately, smart people have no inherent powers under the law just for being smart. Our democratic system requires that all citizens at least potentially have a voice in the process, and who gets to do what is fundamentally decided by popular vote. And it turns out that most citizens are not very smart, and don't elect smart people to do things like that.
2012-07-02 12:25:48 AM  
1 votes:

tarheel07: So it's a particle whose existence actually disproves the existence of God? Isn't it ironic?

/dontcha think?


By definition, anything supernatural is not provable or disprovable scientifically. So I would not consider that ironic, no.

I don't know who's responsible for the term 'God particle,' but it's an ill conceived term. It's got absolutely nothing to do with any gods, at least not any more or less than another other particles do.

I suppose the appellation comes from the fact that it's supposed to impart mass to other particles, and that's a very important thing to understand, critical to many scientific theories and puzzles, and doubtless many eventual breakthroughs and advances, too. But it's indulging in no little hyperbole to call this a godlike power, especially of a nonsentient subatomic particle. I know it's meant in jest, but there's just no way that it can't be misleading and even offensive to many laymen.
2012-07-02 12:22:09 AM  
1 votes:
funny-pictures-blog.com
2012-07-02 12:22:07 AM  
1 votes:
i.dailymail.co.uknewimages.bwwstatic.com

I want the last check I write to bounce.
2012-07-02 12:19:03 AM  
1 votes:
imgs.xkcd.com
2012-07-02 12:13:27 AM  
1 votes:

phrawgh: Why can't all these smart people get together and pass a federal budget?


Because such a budget would weigh heavily on education and research and investment in the infrastructure, and thus would anger the sizable proportion of Americans who are morally opposed to book-learnin'?
2012-07-02 12:06:30 AM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you

The Daily Fail has decided to tell everyone what CERN is going to announce on Wednesday even though there's no leaked evidence that the Higgs bosun has been found.


Dude, there is leaked evidence of a Higgs Bosun discovery about every 3 days.
2012-07-01 11:45:33 PM  
1 votes:
So they found a smaller particle and then they will find an even smaller particle, you see where I'm going.
2012-07-01 11:44:59 PM  
1 votes:
The Higgs boson is regarded as the key to understanding the universe.


Bullshiat. What a pile of careless, sloppy, sensationalist science writing.
2012-07-01 11:43:09 PM  
1 votes:
So it's a particle whose existence actually disproves the existence of God? Isn't it ironic?

/dontcha think?
2012-07-01 11:23:56 PM  
1 votes:
www.wired.com

"Kent, this is god."

/obscure?
2012-07-01 10:31:18 PM  
1 votes:
Steve Zodiac:

while some things don't- light photons, neutrinos, and other exotic things.

Didn't they figure that neutrinos do have mass, even if it is incredibly slight?
2012-07-01 10:11:25 PM  
1 votes:

cman: Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you


This particle explains why your mom is fat.
2012-07-01 09:47:57 PM  
1 votes:
dtdstudios.com
2012-07-01 09:36:23 PM  
1 votes:
I have irrefutable proof that humans never actually mature beyond 12 years of age.

I can't read Large Hadron Collider without unintentionally transposing it to Hardon.

/It's a small sample size
//Need to go write a grant
2012-07-01 09:17:34 PM  
1 votes:

revrendjim: Majick Thise: Steve Zodiac: light photons

I may also be wrong but I thought photons had a minuscule mass.... I thought that solar sails were a tech that was proven to work at least in theory. Google tells me that that do work but a very quick search doesn't confirm the 'mass' theory

No, photons have energy and momentum, but no mass.


okay I believe you rather than me because you're a Reverend. (and because I am most likely wrong)
2012-07-01 09:01:47 PM  
1 votes:

Majick Thise: Steve Zodiac: light photons

I may also be wrong but I thought photons had a minuscule mass.... I thought that solar sails were a tech that was proven to work at least in theory. Google tells me that that do work but a very quick search doesn't confirm the 'mass' theory


No, photons have energy and momentum, but no mass.
2012-07-01 07:38:15 PM  
1 votes:
Pfft... let me know when they find a dog particle.
2012-07-01 07:13:45 PM  
1 votes:
Can someone dumb it down even more for a moron like me? Thank you
 
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