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12824 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Jul 2012 at 8:16 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-01 10:43:20 PM

Mr.Insightful: If a company could sell for a higher price on the "baseball bats" market than it currently is (before any tax goes into effect), then it clearly would already be doing so. So when the tax rate goes up, the supply/demand point doesn't change, and the company has to pay the tax out of their own pocket.


That may be true. A company could take it off of its operating budget, which would then result in less dollars spent in advertising, cut wages (resulting in a lower standard of living versus inflation and organic CoL increases) halt expansion or maybe cut out a supplier and try to use a cheaper kind of wood.

Either way, there's an adverse affect to the company, its employees or the people with whom the company does business. 9 times out of ten though, a company who sees an increase in OPEX due to taxes or the cost of energy/labor will build the increase into the prices of their goods.
 
2012-07-01 10:43:55 PM
For all you complaining "I've seen this before" shut up. We should see it everywhere. The news should be informing people on this but it's not. Most people have no clue what's in the ACA.
 
2012-07-01 10:44:08 PM

o5iiawah: Ever stop to think that a big reason why people cant afford health insurance is because they are being taxed to pay for other people to have health insurance?


Is that why Blue Cross and Blue Shield deny insurance coverage to people they consider to be too sick to cover?

The stupidity that you have constantly posted so far in this thread continues to astound me.
 
2012-07-01 10:44:44 PM

heap: o5iiawah: And there are no valid arguments as to how rates will fall under this plan.

and no valid arguments for how the status quo will alter it's status quo-i-ness and end up w/ constant or reduced rates, either.

with the side effect of 30 million uninsured, pre-existing conditions, and medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action.

there are a pisspot full of detractions in 'change nothing' - you make no case for that being a satisfactory outcome, either.


of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it
 
2012-07-01 10:44:49 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-01 10:45:32 PM
Since this bill doesn't do anything to lower costs, it is bad. Therefore, we should repeal it.

Brought to you by the people that burn their house down because the heat doesn't work anymore.
 
2012-07-01 10:46:42 PM

skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it


Did you miss his point about all the other things it DOES do as compared to the status quo? Surely you didn't miss that line. It's right above the one you responded to
 
2012-07-01 10:46:46 PM

One Big Ass Mistake America: [i.imgur.com image 400x400]


Yeah, I'd rather piss away my tax money blowing up another Middle Eastern country instead of providing health care to citizens in THIS COUNTRY!!!

/Goddamn retarded meme is goddamn retarded
 
2012-07-01 10:46:55 PM

Corvus: For all you complaining "I've seen this before" shut up. We should see it everywhere. The news should be informing people on this but it's not. Most people have no clue what's in the ACA.


that's because it's not news, it's "News Entertainment"
 
2012-07-01 10:47:29 PM

skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it


and the 30 million uninsured, medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action, etc, etc, etc?

for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.

our system as it stands is frigged. arguing to go back to the 'good old days' that weren't good in any shape or form is kinda lost on me.
 
2012-07-01 10:48:26 PM

heap: for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.


People who say that the status quo is fine and/or the American health care system is awesome are lying. And, they are idiots.
 
2012-07-01 10:48:39 PM

Corvus: For all you complaining "I've seen this before" shut up. We should see it everywhere. The news should be informing people on this but it's not. Most people have no clue what's in the ACA.


When factual news organizations are branded as leftist and vilified by an entire political party, people turn to CNN to be handed nothing of value.
 
2012-07-01 10:48:50 PM

Mr.Insightful: but I did take a number of econ courses in college,


You seem to have forgotten your micro.

So when the tax rate goes up, the supply/demand point doesn't change, and the company has to pay the tax out of their own pocket.

Not true. The consumer and the corporation both suffer a difference. p* goes up. q* shifts left. Fewer units are sold, at a higher price. The consumers pay more and the company gets less. The government collects q*t in taxes, and you get some amount of deadweight loss.
 
2012-07-01 10:49:24 PM

Ambivalence: Nightmaretony: Ah, ok. thanks. It will help when that derp starts running round FB as well.

Sometimes it feels like fingers in a dam trying to keep the derp from drowning us all.


I think part of the problem with the Teabaggers is that everyone else has been too polite to call them out individually for their stupidity.

When people on my FB post particularly derpy things, especially racial insults of Obama, I like to make a screencap of it, full name and all, and post it on my FB and my twitter, and pretty much any other place where it will be seen by the general public.

/just, you know, throwing ideas out there . . .
 
2012-07-01 10:50:33 PM

bulldg4life: People who say that the status quo is fine and/or the American health care system is awesome are lying. And, they are idiots.


or, like McConnel et al....really, really, really sheltered.
 
2012-07-01 10:50:35 PM

Pincy: topcon: Uh, no. I've got an HSA, and I'm quite happy with it. As someone who is in their 30's with no health problems and never goes to the doctor, my HSA is just fine, thanks.

Exactly, that's the point we've been making, as long as you are lucky and don't have major medical expenses then HSAs are just fine. Now I personally do not wish you any ill-will, but if you were unlucky enough to come down with some condition that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (and no, that is not an unrealistic amount) then I really hope you have a lot saved up.


Okay, maybe I'm just completely clueless about my own insurance here, but I've got Blue Cross and Blue Shield, along with the HSA. As far as I know, I have health insurance just like anyone else who has health insurance, with a slightly higher deductible. Is there something I'm not getting here? It's not as if I'm just covered by the money in my HSA. I think some of you are making blanket statements about HSAs and how they work for everyone.

I know when I talked to the insurance guy who came to our office, he had a shiatload of different plans.
 
2012-07-01 10:50:38 PM
Ringshadow: Fwd;fwd;FWD;FWD;Fwd;fwd;FWD: My brother just found a provision in it that, supposedly, allows the RFID chipping of humans.

But anyway, yes, marvelous breakdown in very simple language.


FTFY

/yes, I know you're making a joke. I'm just enhancing it.
 
2012-07-01 10:50:47 PM
Let me get something straight. The Reps hate this bill because it has everything they wanted, but because democrats passed it, they hate it. Am I in the ballpark?
 
2012-07-01 10:51:13 PM

bulldg4life: heap: for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.

People who say that the status quo is fine and/or the American health care system is awesome are lying. And, they are idiots.


Mitch McConnell said we have the best healthcare in the world. Sure, if the stated purpose was to ensure corporate profit margins being sustained (best part...) forever.
 
2012-07-01 10:51:42 PM

The Name: I think part of the problem with the Teabaggers is that everyone else has been too polite to call them out individually for their stupidity.


For fear of being branded as biased by Fox News and the GOP, everybody else is forced to allow the "other side" equal time in expressing their ideas or with respect to compromise...no matter how idiotic.

As a Farker once said, when asking two people what to have for dinner, if one says "steak" and one says "a bowl of shiat"....the reasonable compromise is not a steak covered in shiat.
 
2012-07-01 10:52:22 PM

silgryphon: Let me get something straight. The Reps hate this bill because it has everything they wanted, but because democrats passed it, they hate it. Am I in the ballpark?


You guessed the section, row, seat bro.
 
2012-07-01 10:52:27 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: One correction on your headline subby. Because an over simplified bullet point list that focused on the "oh yeah, that sounds great" upside of the act without dealing with the inevitable downside and unintended consequences is perfect for a
5 year old, it's also perfect for a democrat.

Now, you can easily come up with a list of anti-obamacare talking points that focus on the negative aspects without discussing the positives that
would be perfect for 5 year old republicans, but this ain't it.


I, for one, would be interested in such a list.
 
2012-07-01 10:52:44 PM

heap: or, like McConnel et al....really, really, really sheltered.


I'm pretty sure he could be classified as a lying idiot. My point still stands.
 
2012-07-01 10:53:42 PM

Mrtraveler01: One Big Ass Mistake America: [i.imgur.com image 400x400]

Yeah, I'd rather piss away my tax money blowing up another Middle Eastern country instead of providing health care to citizens in THIS COUNTRY!!!

/Goddamn retarded meme is goddamn retarded


You mad bra?
 
2012-07-01 10:55:24 PM

RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: One Big Ass Mistake America: [i.imgur.com image 400x400]

Yeah, I'd rather piss away my tax money blowing up another Middle Eastern country instead of providing health care to citizens in THIS COUNTRY!!!

/Goddamn retarded meme is goddamn retarded

You mad bra?


Meh, it was just a really stupid meme. But then again what else would I expect from the right-wing amiright? ;)
 
2012-07-01 10:55:24 PM

bulldg4life: heap: or, like McConnel et al....really, really, really sheltered.

I'm pretty sure he could be classified as a lying idiot. My point still stands.


a lying idiot still tries to lie to their own benefit.

it takes a truly sheltered lying idiot to say '30 million uninsured? that's not the point'

you can't just visit the echo chamber and come out with that as commentary - you have to live in there.

i'm willing to compromise - he's a steak covered in shiat.
 
2012-07-01 10:56:51 PM

Mrtraveler01: So should Group A just let Group B die?


You've created a construct that doesn't exist - even at present.

The argument is always the same from the left - either Centrally administered largess or death, illiteracy and squalor for those who do not benefit from it.

.

Ambivalence: Look at Thomas Jefferson. Hell, look, at Abraham Lincoln


If you think Jefferson and Lincoln were leftist progressives then I have a bridge to sell you. Lincoln's "let not the poor man tear down the house of the rich, let him labor to build his own" quote would be interpreted by progressives as insensitive, suggesting that No man deserves a house while another man is out in the cold and what, should the man without a house just whither in the field and die? Want proof? Read up this post for MrTraveler's response as to the morality of taking property from one group of people to pay for another. Lincoln was a statist but that doesn't make him a bad dude. FDR was a raving progressive liberal. you're not making news with that suggestion.

You were probably thinking Hamilton.

bulldg4life: Do you not understand what health insurance pays for now?


I absolutely understand what it pays for. Health insurance is designed to mitigate the risk of a catastrophic medical event bankrupting an individual or family. In an effort to lower their costs, the insurance company will usually offer preventative care as it is better for them to pay for regular checkups in order that they may avoid paying a claim later. Mandating an insurance company cover those who are already sick will inevitably cause them to have to reduce the level of care and/or raise prices on healthy individuals.
 
2012-07-01 10:57:47 PM

vygramul: Mr.Insightful: but I did take a number of econ courses in college,

You seem to have forgotten your micro.

So when the tax rate goes up, the supply/demand point doesn't change, and the company has to pay the tax out of their own pocket.

Not true. The consumer and the corporation both suffer a difference. p* goes up. q* shifts left. Fewer units are sold, at a higher price. The consumers pay more and the company gets less. The government collects q*t in taxes, and you get some amount of deadweight loss.


Well, first you have to specify exactly what kind of "tax" it is. A tax on profits, for obvious reasons, wouldn't be expected to change the price at all. On the other hand, a tax per unit sold (such as with cigarette taxes) will, and indeed is often one of the purposes of the tax.
 
2012-07-01 10:57:50 PM
I suppose if you went on the dole, and foodstamps etc, your healthcare would be free. Lets have a foodstamp party!!! Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.
 
2012-07-01 10:57:55 PM

coeyagi: silgryphon: Let me get something straight. The Reps hate this bill because it has everything they wanted, but because democrats passed it, they hate it. Am I in the ballpark?

You guessed the section, row, seat bro.


You know something someone should go to capitol hill, and smack them upside the head.
 
2012-07-01 10:58:51 PM

IronTom: I suppose if you went on the dole, and foodstamps etc, your healthcare would be free. Lets have a foodstamp party!!! Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.


0/10.
 
2012-07-01 10:59:01 PM

o5iiawah: I absolutely understand what it pays for.


Yes, but your point was something about being taxed to pay for someone else's health care insurance. We already pay for other people's health insurance.

Hospitals don't turn people away at the door.
 
2012-07-01 10:59:06 PM

bulldg4life: skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it

Did you miss his point about all the other things it DOES do as compared to the status quo? Surely you didn't miss that line. It's right above the one you responded to


didn't miss it at all. However, if you take medicine for an ulcer and it doesn't get rid of your ulcer but it does reduce your chance of a heartattack, has the medicine been a success? Are you better off having taken the aspirin? Sure. Has it addressed the primary issue? No. Is it legitimate to criticize the medication for failing to achieve its stated purpose? Of course it is. Surely you understood this.
 
2012-07-01 11:00:25 PM

IronTom: I suppose if you went on the dole, and foodstamps etc, your healthcare would be free. Lets have a foodstamp party!!! Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.


I'm amazed that you hang around to post the most idiotic things hundreds of posts after your original (blah) comment. And, you always post in the same way. Just ridiculous, pointless, nothing comments.

The only thing I can assume is that you drink and your comments slowly become more hilarious to you.
 
2012-07-01 11:01:53 PM

o5iiawah: You've created a construct that doesn't exist - even at present.


Your right. It doesn't because we have a safety net to prevent that from happening.

Congrats, you just realized the value of a safety net.

o5iiawah: let not the poor man tear down the house of the rich, let him labor to build his own


Lincoln didn't say that


Actually a statement by William J. H. Boetcker known as "The Ten Cannots" (1916), this has often been misattributed to Lincoln since 1942 when a leaflet containing quotes by both men was published.

o5iiawah: Read up this post for MrTraveler's response as to the morality of taking property from one group of people to pay for another.


*Rolls eyes*
 
2012-07-01 11:02:16 PM

skullkrusher: However, if you take medicine for an ulcer and it doesn't get rid of your ulcer but it does reduce your chance of a heartattack, has the medicine been a success?


i'm sorry, i actually thought the 30 million people uninsured, the lack of available or even financially possible coverage for anybody with an ailment, and a litany of other problems still playing themselves out today was the problem.

i'll have to only care about account rates rising, because that wasn't happening before, or anything.
 
2012-07-01 11:02:24 PM

IronTom: I Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.


that's a lot of fruit

will there be pinapples
 
2012-07-01 11:02:25 PM

skullkrusher: Has it addressed the primary issue? No. Is it legitimate to criticize the medication for failing to achieve its stated purpose? Of course it is.


Well, if we're going to boil PPACA down to saying its focus was to lower health care costs and condemn it for not doing so, then that makes the argument easier.

Of course, the would be ridiculous since the bill was designed to provide health insurance to more people and make it attainable for those that otherwise may not be able to get it.
 
2012-07-01 11:02:30 PM

skullkrusher: heap: o5iiawah: And there are no valid arguments as to how rates will fall under this plan.

and no valid arguments for how the status quo will alter it's status quo-i-ness and end up w/ constant or reduced rates, either.

with the side effect of 30 million uninsured, pre-existing conditions, and medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action.

there are a pisspot full of detractions in 'change nothing' - you make no case for that being a satisfactory outcome, either.

of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it


skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it


prices would be lower if people used insurance for what it was and put money aside in an HSA for their regular needs and the occasional sports injury or broken tooth.

my car insurance would be through the farking roof if I called Geico every time I needed a tire plug.
 
2012-07-01 11:02:40 PM

o5iiawah: Mandating an insurance company cover those who are already sick will inevitably cause them to have to reduce the level of care and/or raise prices on healthy individuals.


So the really sick are just SOL and don't deserve access to health insurance then correct?
 
2012-07-01 11:03:28 PM

heap: skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it

and the 30 million uninsured, medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action, etc, etc, etc?

for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.

our system as it stands is frigged. arguing to go back to the 'good old days' that weren't good in any shape or form is kinda lost on me.


I wasn't aware the options we were limited to doing nothing at all and the bill we have.
 
2012-07-01 11:04:12 PM
Continuing on your point, if we proclaimed (like you seem to be doing) that PPACA was designed to provide health care insurance to more people, we must conclude that it is a huge success as more people will have health insurance in 2014 than currently and it will probably be directly traced back to the bill.

Man, this argument stuff is easy.
 
2012-07-01 11:04:28 PM

bulldg4life: IronTom: I suppose if you went on the dole, and foodstamps etc, your healthcare would be free. Lets have a foodstamp party!!! Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.

I'm amazed that you hang around to post the most idiotic things hundreds of posts after your original (blah) comment. And, you always post in the same way. Just ridiculous, pointless, nothing comments.

The only thing I can assume is that you drink and your comments slowly become more hilarious to you.


jump in the lake buldog
 
2012-07-01 11:05:08 PM

skullkrusher: heap: skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it

and the 30 million uninsured, medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action, etc, etc, etc?

for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.

our system as it stands is frigged. arguing to go back to the 'good old days' that weren't good in any shape or form is kinda lost on me.

I wasn't aware the options we were limited to doing nothing at all and the bill we have.


Given the 112th congress, yes it is.
 
2012-07-01 11:05:27 PM

Ambivalence: EnviroDude: Or people with HSAs that now have to buy a product they don't want.

Ha ha! you know how I know you don't have an HSA? No one, short of some mental disability, would prefer an HSA over actual health insurance. HSAs are shiat.


Do you know who you're talking to?
 
2012-07-01 11:05:28 PM
I haven't seen this many butthurt lib submissions since they took an ass beating in 2010. November 10-about Feb 11 was nothing but Palin and Bush submissions, even though neither was in office or of any consequence anymore.

Obama got a major victory this week. The Court ensured his first term wasn't a complete waste. You should be celebrating. Why so insecure?
 
2012-07-01 11:05:50 PM

skullkrusher: heap: skullkrusher: of course, the status quo didn't have a stated primary purpose of reducing the cost of health insurance so we'll be a little more likely to forgive the status quo for failing to reduce the cost of insurance than we're willing to forgive the health care reform for it

and the 30 million uninsured, medical bankruptcy as a normal course of action, etc, etc, etc?

for real, i have to guess that some kinda case could be made that 'leave things how they are!' is a good course of action, but i've yet to actually hear it.

our system as it stands is frigged. arguing to go back to the 'good old days' that weren't good in any shape or form is kinda lost on me.

I wasn't aware the options we were limited to doing nothing at all and the bill we have.


make a case for something then. nobody ever does - they just act as if the problems we have now are the fault of something that hasn't been enacted yet - and do so almost explicitly to act as if we don't currently have a plethora of problems.

solve them.

until i see a better option actually become a possibility, i'm fine with the alterations being done - i'm not a fan of all of them, but in totality, it looks like a step forward. give me some reason to think there's a better place to put that first foot, and i'll listen.
 
2012-07-01 11:06:00 PM

skullkrusher: I wasn't aware the options we were limited to doing nothing at all and the bill we have.


Well, considering the GOP in congress...what else could we possibly have done? Tort reform and medical malpractice insurance caps? Some sort of interstate deregulation?

We weren't going to be getting a robust public option which would've been the smart thing.
 
2012-07-01 11:06:10 PM

IronTom: I suppose if you went on the dole, and foodstamps etc, your healthcare would be free. Lets have a foodstamp party!!! Drop out, dole in, wuldn't it be wunderful.


I heard that in Helen Lovejoy's voice.

/Tim! Tim!
 
2012-07-01 11:06:40 PM

Nemo's Brother: I haven't seen this many butthurt lib submissions since they took an ass beating in 2010. November 10-about Feb 11 was nothing but Palin and Bush submissions, even though neither was in office or of any consequence anymore.

Obama got a major victory this week. The Court ensured his first term wasn't a complete waste. You should be celebrating. Why so insecure?


The only butthurt I'm seeing is from those on the right who think that this iruling spells the death of America.

The right are such drama queens!
 
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