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(Newser)   So, according to this research, we need to have teenagers take antidepressants all the time to make life easier for all of us   (newser.com) divider line 57
    More: Spiffy, Kid 'n Play, teenagers  
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3239 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jul 2012 at 2:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-01 02:23:14 PM
Lower the drinking age to twelve, problem solved.
 
2012-07-01 02:24:52 PM
This article looks like it comes out of some kind of totalitarian regime Aldous Huxley imagined.
 
2012-07-01 02:26:02 PM
Tried that already. Got generations X and Y from it who will be running the country in a few years. We are already pretty much doomed by this so it doesnt matter now
 
2012-07-01 02:27:44 PM

Bennie Crabtree: This article looks like it comes out of some kind of totalitarian regime Aldous Huxley imagined.


well...
 
2012-07-01 02:27:44 PM
We normally say "done in one" for the best remark in the thread.

I am saying done in headdy.
 
2012-07-01 02:29:22 PM

Bennie Crabtree: This article looks like it comes out of some kind of totalitarian regime Aldous Huxley imagined.


Right - teens are supposed to be confused - and very annoying. Responsible, well-behaved teens are monsters in the making.
 
2012-07-01 02:29:55 PM
What depresses me is a link which has a snippet of the full article which is linked.
 
2012-07-01 02:30:20 PM
IIRC they make teenagers kill themselves, so yes.
 
2012-07-01 02:32:13 PM
Kids on drugs -- only if it keeps them under control and off my lawn.
 
2012-07-01 02:33:09 PM
This ... uh, article ... was written by someone who does not understand antidepressants.
 
2012-07-01 02:33:18 PM

CasperImproved: We normally say "done in one" for the best remark in the thread.

I am saying done in headdy.


My fave on fark is, "this ^"....soooo yeah, yours is a that.
 
2012-07-01 02:37:26 PM

kellynoel: This ... uh, article ... was written by someone who does not understand antidepressants.


. . . . continue
 
2012-07-01 02:39:12 PM
There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.
 
2012-07-01 02:39:25 PM

mikaloyd: Tried that already. Got generations X and Y from it who will be running the country in a few years. We are already pretty much doomed by this so it doesnt matter now


You think Generation X and Y are the ones that doomed the country?
 
2012-07-01 02:39:36 PM

AliceBToklasLives: . . . . continue


I'm finished.
 
2012-07-01 02:39:49 PM

Posh Naranek: IIRC they make teenagers kill themselves, so yes.


SSRIs initially have an activating effect in the first 2 weeks absent anti-depressant effect, which takes a bit longer for onset.

The end result is that if you have a suicidally depressed patient, who, due to their depression, is too lazy to do anything about it, after starting an SSRI, will be more energized and therefore more able to carry out their suicidal plan. Past that period, the drugs should start to bump up their mood, at which point their suicidality is significantly dropped.
 
2012-07-01 02:42:03 PM
antidepressants messes up the adults who have to take them too. looking back over the past 10+ years of living in a sleepy fog full of pharmaceuticals, psychiatrists and therapists isn't good. i was much better off -and functioning- when i 'self-medicated' with huge quantities of alcohol and street drugs.

if you are an artistic or sensitive person, a writer or artist, whatever - you will find antidepressants stifles and ruins your ability to express yourself in the ways you are accustomed. finding access to your finest gifts have been slashed to ribbons sucks beyond the telling.
 
2012-07-01 02:42:26 PM

davidphogan: You think Generation X and Y are the ones that doomed the country?



I blame Generation A.
 
2012-07-01 02:42:54 PM

davidphogan: mikaloyd: Tried that already. Got generations X and Y from it who will be running the country in a few years. We are already pretty much doomed by this so it doesnt matter now

You think Generation X and Y are the ones that doomed the country?


Sounds like something a baby boomer would say. Classic projection.
 
2012-07-01 02:47:02 PM
When did antidepressants take the place of tv when raising children?
 
2012-07-01 02:47:38 PM
magicway.files.wordpress.com

How did humanity survive without cure-all drugs?
 
2012-07-01 02:51:26 PM

LeroyBourne: When did antidepressants take the place of tv when raising children?


When aspergers became a diagnosis for terrible parenting.
 
2012-07-01 02:59:15 PM

Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.


There should be drinking limits for younger people.

You have to run before you can walk. Limiting younger people to drinking with adult supervision is fine. Let the little farkers find out if they have a taste for it, develop a tolerance, and learn how to drink responsibly so they don't become one of the dumb farkers who downs a bottle of whiskey at their first college party because they had never had any exposure to alcohol before because of our puritanical laws and mindset and die from alcohol poisoning.

But once they hit 18? All limits are off.
 
2012-07-01 03:00:00 PM
one could argue that any drug, be it legal, illegal, over the counter or prescription, that hinders the process of self actualization by numbing down the emotional pain of being alive on the planet stops emotional development in its tracks and produces a "Peter Pan" like syndrome where no one ever really grows up thus producing a Neverneverland kind of thinking in seemingly sane adults.
I only see this problem growing worse as we frantically try to shelter our children from the fact that they are inheriting a really farked up mess of a planet.
 
2012-07-01 03:04:45 PM

Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.


The brain isn't fully developed until approximately age 26, at which time the primary centers of immaturity are largely those that have to do with decision-making/impulsivity, and risk-reward-benefit, but yeah no, let's just encourage young people to blast themselves with mind-altering drugs and sit back and watch the hilarity unfold.
 
2012-07-01 03:06:17 PM

The 4chan Psychiatrist: Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.

The brain isn't fully developed until approximately age 26, at which time the primary centers of immaturity are largely those that have to do with decision-making/impulsivity, and risk-reward-benefit, but yeah no, let's just encourage young people to blast themselves with mind-altering drugs and sit back and watch the hilarity unfold.


Has this always been the case, or has evolution slowed it down as our life expectancy has increased?
 
2012-07-01 03:07:35 PM

The 4chan Psychiatrist: Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.

The brain isn't fully developed until approximately age 26, at which time the primary centers of immaturity are largely those that have to do with decision-making/impulsivity, and risk-reward-benefit, but yeah no, let's just encourage young people to blast themselves with mind-altering drugs and sit back and watch the hilarity unfold.


However, by making alcohol unattainable and TEH DEBBIL until the age of 21, it's encouraging kids to go out and be as stupid as possible the first time they have no parental supervision (College), leading to accidents, death, and destruction because they have no experience with alcohol.
 
2012-07-01 03:14:19 PM

kellynoel: Has this always been the case, or has evolution slowed it down as our life expectancy has increased?


Going to flatly state this has always been the case ("always" being since what was clearly identifiable as our modern species existed). Our life expectancy has risen only in recent years in terms of evolutionary timescales, not enough to alter in a sizable population relatively minor traits. For those as complex as brain development... Consider, there is a strong link between intelligent behaviors of an organism (tool usage, language and symbols, similar) and length of time until maturation. What we would be talking about to slow maturation would be not a small thing.

Plus, our life expectancy has increased by treating illnesses and reducing infant mortality rates, not via any genetic difference as far as I know.
 
2012-07-01 03:15:49 PM

malaktaus: davidphogan: mikaloyd: Tried that already. Got generations X and Y from it who will be running the country in a few years. We are already pretty much doomed by this so it doesnt matter now

You think Generation X and Y are the ones that doomed the country?

Sounds like something a baby boomer would say. Classic projection.



Seriously, does he really think the country is doomed because of the people power has not been handed off to yet? It's like people in their 20's and 30's blaming America's toddlers for today's problems.

/BTW, Who raised Gen X and Gen Y again?
//oh......so it's still your fault
 
2012-07-01 03:16:07 PM
My teen years and 20s were horrible because when I wasn't stoned out of my mind on illegal drugs, and often when I was, I was mired in depression and OCD. If they'd had an antidepressant back in the '70s that didn't give me counter-productive side-effects I might have even graduated 8th grade: the best they could offer me then was Elavil, which made me groggy, nauseated and unable to concentrate and -- unlike the "bad" drugs -- didn't make me feel any better.

It wasn't till age 29 that I lucked into a shrink that prescribed Zoloft: after a while on that I could feel something besides suicidally miserable and get out to buy my own groceries without literally hours of preparatory rituals that frequently failed.

Whether my life could ever be worth a damn to myself or anybody else is beside the point.

Of course this says nothing about what today's teenagers should do, only that in some cases taking an antidepressant might be better than not. One good thing is that, unlike crack, you can get a month's supply for $4 at Wal-Mart.
 
2012-07-01 03:18:06 PM

Vangor: Going to flatly state this has always been the case ("always" being since what was clearly identifiable as our modern species existed). Our life expectancy has risen only in recent years in terms of evolutionary timescales, not enough to alter in a sizable population relatively minor traits. For those as complex as brain development... Consider, there is a strong link between intelligent behaviors of an organism (tool usage, language and symbols, similar) and length of time until maturation. What we would be talking about to slow maturation would be not a small thing.

Plus, our life expectancy has increased by treating illnesses and reducing infant mortality rates, not via any genetic difference as far as I know.


Thanks - makes good sense. I think I expressed my question poorly, though. I mean, if we look at society when the life expectancy was significantly less, "adulthood" began much earlier. I suppose I was wondering if that was ALL cultural, or if biology had played a role in that change as well.
 
2012-07-01 03:21:32 PM

kellynoel: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.

The brain isn't fully developed until approximately age 26, at which time the primary centers of immaturity are largely those that have to do with decision-making/impulsivity, and risk-reward-benefit, but yeah no, let's just encourage young people to blast themselves with mind-altering drugs and sit back and watch the hilarity unfold.

Has this always been the case, or has evolution slowed it down as our life expectancy has increased?


As far as we know, this has always been the case. The difference is that in earlier times, children were largely deprived of any autonomy and were to be fully obedient to their adult caretakers. While it is speculation, this, along with harsher times may have facilitated a more rapid neurocognitive development. The brain is interesting because its anatomy and function is demonstrably affected by both genetics as well as environment, and in some cases, environment can induce DNA changes - we actually see changes at the genetic level with abused children.

What we do know is that generally speaking, children require structure and guidance. They'll often fight it, but the reality is they want it to some degree as well. The problem is that I feel like a lot of parents are allowing their children to be the ones who impose structure upon them, and now we're seeing young adults who are essentially perpetual children because they were never properly provided structure and boundaries when growing up, and end up getting stuck in that child-like developmental state.
 
2012-07-01 03:23:01 PM

FirstNationalBastard: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Barbecue Bob: There should be no drinking ages.
There should be no drug war.

Both are failures.

The brain isn't fully developed until approximately age 26, at which time the primary centers of immaturity are largely those that have to do with decision-making/impulsivity, and risk-reward-benefit, but yeah no, let's just encourage young people to blast themselves with mind-altering drugs and sit back and watch the hilarity unfold.

However, by making alcohol unattainable and TEH DEBBIL until the age of 21, it's encouraging kids to go out and be as stupid as possible the first time they have no parental supervision (College), leading to accidents, death, and destruction because they have no experience with alcohol.



Wait until 21?? You mean alcohol is unavailable to some of the 12 year-olds in this country, I was not aware of this. I remember thinking the law was stupid when I was a teenager for a much more simple reason. Alcohol is easy to obtain, by pretty much anyone. So imagine that, out of a class of only 23 7th graders, there were at least 9 of us with easy access to alcohol. The laws do nothing but make it "forbidden fruit" which makes kids want it more.
 
2012-07-01 03:23:29 PM

The 4chan Psychiatrist: As far as we know, this has always been the case. The difference is that in earlier times, children were largely deprived of any autonomy and were to be fully obedient to their adult caretakers. While it is speculation, this, along with harsher times may have facilitated a more rapid neurocognitive development. The brain is interesting because its anatomy and function is demonstrably affected by both genetics as well as environment, and in some cases, environment can induce DNA changes - we actually see changes at the genetic level with abused children.

What we do know is that generally speaking, children require structure and guidance. They'll often fight it, but the reality is they want it to some degree as well. The problem is that I feel like a lot of parents are allowing their children to be the ones who impose structure upon them, and now we're seeing young adults who are essentially perpetual children because they were never properly provided structure and boundaries when growing up, and end up getting stuck in that child-like developmental state.


Thanks for that!

I'm a teacher so I am very familiar with the behavioral aspects of what you're saying, but much less so with the biological origins.
 
2012-07-01 03:27:10 PM
darkvstar:

one could argue that any drug, be it legal, illegal, over the counter or prescription, that hinders the process of self actualization by numbing down the emotional pain of being alive on the planet stops emotional development in its tracks and produces a "Peter Pan" like syndrome where no one ever really grows up thus producing a Neverneverland kind of thinking in seemingly sane adults.

One could also ask what's so great about being in great emotional pain and what's so good about growing up to continue to be in great emotional pain. Or are you insisting, like Mother Theresa, that the more miserable you are the more God will love you?


I only see this problem growing worse as we frantically try to shelter our children from the fact that they are inheriting a really farked up mess of a planet.


What do you think the chances are that the planet will get any less farked up in the next 30 years?

"Save the planet: kill yourself."
 
2012-07-01 03:28:43 PM

kellynoel: I mean, if we look at society when the life expectancy was significantly less, "adulthood" began much earlier.


I have known someone who was sixteen, able to work, have concurrent enrollment, and care for siblings without parental support. I have known someone who was twenty-four, never looked for a job, no educational background, and cannot do laundry or cook. What I mean is, "adulthood" is a cultural construct. The twenty-four year old is biologically more mature (assuming standard developmental rates) while culturally less mature. However, what we are discussing is neurology which has great complexity itself and the filter of behaviors and motivations.

This is likely why we see people becoming adults later in life in recent decades, because we see behaviors and motivations which speak to or do not speak to being an adult, and we have not understood brain development until recent decades. The reality is, in my opinion, standard development to full maturity takes more than twenty years and has always.

Hopefully answering some questions.
 
2012-07-01 03:31:00 PM
The 4chan Psychiatrist:

[...]
The difference is that in earlier times, children were largely deprived of any autonomy and were to be fully obedient to their adult caretakers.
[...]

What we do know is that generally speaking, children require structure and guidance.


Oh, I get it: "The beating will continue until morale improves."

Great advice!
 
2012-07-01 03:31:43 PM

Vangor: I have known someone who was sixteen, able to work, have concurrent enrollment, and care for siblings without parental support. I have known someone who was twenty-four, never looked for a job, no educational background, and cannot do laundry or cook. What I mean is, "adulthood" is a cultural construct. The twenty-four year old is biologically more mature (assuming standard developmental rates) while culturally less mature. However, what we are discussing is neurology which has great complexity itself and the filter of behaviors and motivations.

This is likely why we see people becoming adults later in life in recent decades, because we see behaviors and motivations which speak to or do not speak to being an adult, and we have not understood brain development until recent decades. The reality is, in my opinion, standard development to full maturity takes more than twenty years and has always.

Hopefully answering some questions.


Thank you for this. I am not sure how much I feel comfortable gleaning from it, though. It seems to me that a 16 year old who can run a household and a 24 year old who has never had a job are not apt for comparison without a lot more information. I take your point about circumstances, but this particular discussion made me think more about biology.
 
2012-07-01 03:32:35 PM

darkvstar: one could argue that any drug, be it legal, illegal, over the counter or prescription, that hinders the process of self actualization by numbing down the emotional pain of being alive on the planet stops emotional development in its tracks


You might ascribe to the theory of positive disintegration which basically says successfully enduring emotional experiences is how people become moral, ethical, and self-actualized, and trying to protect from or mitigate sorrow, anger, etc., will stunt moral, ethical, and personal development.
 
2012-07-01 03:34:30 PM
Anybody who claims there's merit in suffering is a sadist or a masochist.
 
2012-07-01 03:38:53 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Bennie Crabtree: This article looks like it comes out of some kind of totalitarian regime Aldous Huxley imagined.

Right - teens are supposed to be confused - and very annoying. Responsible, well-behaved teens are monsters in the making.


Enjoy your soma!
 
2012-07-01 03:42:12 PM

The One True TheDavid: My teen years and 20s were horrible because when I wasn't stoned out of my mind on illegal drugs, and often when I was, I was mired in depression and OCD. If they'd had an antidepressant back in the '70s that didn't give me counter-productive side-effects I might have even graduated 8th grade: the best they could offer me then was Elavil, which made me groggy, nauseated and unable to concentrate and -- unlike the "bad" drugs -- didn't make me feel any better.

It wasn't till age 29 that I lucked into a shrink that prescribed Zoloft: after a while on that I could feel something besides suicidally miserable and get out to buy my own groceries without literally hours of preparatory rituals that frequently failed.

Whether my life could ever be worth a damn to myself or anybody else is beside the point.

Of course this says nothing about what today's teenagers should do, only that in some cases taking an antidepressant might be better than not. One good thing is that, unlike crack, you can get a month's supply for $4 at Wal-Mart.


Hear here.

My bipolar set in when I was about 15, back in the Olden Days when moody teens were not seen as particularly unusual. I never got any antidepressants, because those were for, you know, crazy people. I did however turn to meth when I discovered that not only did it raise my depression, it flattened my mania to where I could almost function.

All that said, teenagers SHOULD NOT be on antidepressants unless they're actually psychotic or suicidal (I was not, until much later). Not only do psychotropic meds flatten your affect and destroy your sex drive, they also make it impossible to learn which of your feelings are normal and which are abnormal. For teens who are actually merely moody and hormonal, squashing those emotions before they can learn that sometimes you feel bad for no reason and THAT'S OKAY is a really bad idea. Then they'll grow into adults who don't realize sometimes you feel bad for no reason AND THAT'S OKAY.

Which doesn't mean there is one pat answer for depressed teens. Some may need therapy or short-term medications. But they don't ALL need powerful psychoactive drugs.
 
2012-07-01 03:44:17 PM

kellynoel: I am not sure how much I feel comfortable gleaning from it, though.


I think my point was basically knowing where the genetics ends and environment begins or development ends and circumstances begins is difficult, but we have no reason to believe the genetics have changed, and from this and what we know of development there is little reason to believe development has changed.
 
2012-07-01 03:44:33 PM
I went o school with a kid that was goofy and always picked on. I found out that his mother kept him and his siblings drugged up. I kind of felt sorry for him after that.
 
2012-07-01 03:45:56 PM

Vangor: I think my point was basically knowing where the genetics ends and environment begins or development ends and circumstances begins is difficult, but we have no reason to believe the genetics have changed, and from this and what we know of development there is little reason to believe development has changed.


I'll buy that.
 
2012-07-01 04:01:03 PM
Hell, I was thinking cyanide.

// off my lawn
 
2012-07-01 04:12:14 PM

The 4chan Psychiatrist: The difference is that in earlier times, children were largely deprived of any autonomy and were to be fully obedient to their adult caretakers.


That's complete bullocks. Today children who want to leave their parents are prevented from doing so by strict societal enforcement -- if you run away, even thousands of miles, law enforcement will attempt to return you to your parents, legal restrictions will make it incredibly difficult to obtain employment or lodging, etc. 10,000 years ago if you wanted to leave you just had to walk far enough that your parents would stop hassling you. Even 150 years ago it would have been plausible for a 14-year-old to leave home, go a few towns down the road, and start an independent life. Whereas today in the US that life would basically entail being homeless, unemployed, and a fugitive.

We also know that in the past children reached physiological maturity much earlier than today; for example, dental maturity today often occurs at 20 or later, whereas earlier hominids had mature jaws by 10 or 12. It's difficult to directly study their brains, as they are not well preserved, but it's not unreasonable to assume that brain maturation was similarly accelerated. Obviously that's not on the scale of the past few hundred years, but neither are changes in lifespan.
 
2012-07-01 04:12:15 PM

Bennie Crabtree: AliceBToklasLives: Bennie Crabtree: This article looks like it comes out of some kind of totalitarian regime Aldous Huxley imagined.

Right - teens are supposed to be confused - and very annoying. Responsible, well-behaved teens are monsters in the making.

Enjoy your soma!


Children's Soma(tm): One gramme for a (hissy fit about your one week long "relationship") - two grammes for a (thinking someone cares about your opinions).
 
2012-07-01 04:32:43 PM

kellynoel: I mean, if we look at society when the life expectancy was significantly less, "adulthood" began much earlier.


The lifespan of healthy humans has been about the same of thousands of years. There was more disease back in the day, less protection from the environment, and lots of infant mortality, but if you made it to 20 there was a decent chance you'd make it to about 70 (and moderately good statistical evidence to that effect going back to at least 1400).

But there are significant differences in culture in the past couple thousand years. Those differences change not only what we define as adult -- which is significant for this sort of discussion -- but arguably add quite a bit of complexity to the actual requirements of being an adult. Work in the fields was certainly hard, but you could mostly get by with "pay taxes, follow the simple rules of local authority, don't trust strangers" -- living by those rules today would almost totally prevent you from interacting with society, and if/when you did you'd be easily taken advantage of. The Spanish conquered the Inca in no small part because the Inca didn't understand the motivations or intent of the Spanish, and couldn't comprehend their deception. Just the sheer number of interactions with different groups and people in modern society is no trivial task, and it's a fairly recent (and ongoing) change.
 
2012-07-01 05:01:53 PM

profplump: The lifespan of healthy humans has been about the same of thousands of years. There was more disease back in the day, less protection from the environment, and lots of infant mortality, but if you made it to 20 there was a decent chance you'd make it to about 70 (and moderately good statistical evidence to that effect going back to at least 1400).


I would love to read about that. Do you have any links handy?
 
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