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(Chicago Sun-Times)   Remember last week's gun-buy-back program in Chicago? A pro-gun group received over $6000 for turning in "rusty, non-firing junk" and will use that money to buy ammo and rifles for its NRA youth summer camp   (suntimes.com) divider line 26
    More: Followup, Chicago, private ownership, NRA, Champaign, John Boch  
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7583 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jul 2012 at 12:17 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-07-01 11:38:44 AM  
3 votes:

Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do


And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

More specifically, using this data from the CDC, which is the most recent confirmed data - 2010 is still preliminary - we have 31,347 people injured from firearms, 18.735 suicides by firearm, and of the 16,799 deaths from homicide in 2009, 11,493 were by gunfire. 68% of all homicides were by gunfire. That's absurd.

Do you know how many countries have a lower death by firearm rate than the US? 54, and those are just the ones we have statistics for.

Do you know how many countries have a higher death by firearm rate than the US? 11. Do you know what paradises those are? South Africa, Columbia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama and Mexico. Fantastic places, huh? Half of them have higher death rates because of country-wide drug wars. These are the places we are apparently trying to emulate.

Now, to head off the standard derptastic arguments:

No, all homicides will not cease. Don't be a farking idiot and try to pretend that's what I'm saying. As I pointed out, 32% of all homicides in 2009 were by other methods. Let's make a generous assumption. Let's assume that half of those gun homicides would still have happened by some other way. Ax murder is one the NRA fanatics like to point out, so let's assume they were all murdered by axes. The homicide rate would still plummet by a third. Can you imagine ANY form of legitimate crime prevention that would drop the murder rate by one third in this country besides gun control? I can't. Maybe by doubling the number of police in this country, but that's a LOT of money conservatives, remember? Where are we going to get it from? This is cheap.

Yes, people will still have guns. Nobody is saying outlaw hunting, and yes people will still get guns. As the quote up comment says, gun murderers still happen in country with gun control. The point is to REDUCE them people. Despite how many of you think, the world is not black and white. To say that because all gun crime won't stop therefore we shouldn't have gun control is the dumbest farking argument in the book. People still die in auto accidents, despite modern safety measures. Nobody is saying that we should then toss all the safety measures.

No, you don't need a gun for safety. You don't. If someone kills you from a distance, a gun won't help you anyway, because you don't walk around with it in your hand. This isn't the Wild West, despite how often some of you claim it is with all the minorities committing crimes. A lot of murders happen at close range. Ranges where non-lethal deterrence works. Ever seen a taser fail to drop someone? It's pretty rare. What's more, a taser can be used exactly as a gun would be used, is as easy to pull out, and can be used just as quickly as a gun. In other words, you're no less safe.
2012-07-01 05:44:46 PM  
2 votes:
DAMN GUN NUTS

i73.photobucket.com
2012-07-01 03:00:29 PM  
2 votes:

jso2897: Silly Jesus: They trolled the morans. Good on them.

Really? I'm not sure I see a downside here. A bunch of shiatty, broken, dangerous firearms have been taken off the street, and funding provided to teach kids responsible firearms use. Who, exactly, is a "moran" here?


The moran is anyone who argues that keyboards troll Fark threads.
2012-07-01 12:42:57 PM  
2 votes:
assets.burdastyle.com
2012-07-01 12:29:27 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do

And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

More specifically, using this data from the CDC, which is the most recent confirmed data - 2010 is still preliminary - we have 31,347 people injured from firearms, 18.735 suicides by firearm, and of the 16,799 deaths from homicide in 2009, 11,493 were by gunfire. 68% of all homicides were by gunfire. That's absurd.

Do you know how many countries have a lower death by firearm rate than the US? 54, and those are just the ones we have statistics for.

Do you know how many countries have a higher death by firearm rate than the US? 11. Do you know what paradises those are? South Africa, Columbia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama and Mexico. Fantastic places, huh? Half of them have higher death rates because of country-wide drug wars. These are the places we are apparently trying to emulate.

Now, to head off the standard derptastic arguments:

No, all homicides will not cease. Don't be a farking idiot and try to pretend that's what I'm saying. As I pointed out, 32% of all homicides in 2009 were by other methods. Let's make a generous assumption. Let's assume that half of those gun homicides would still have happened by some other way. Ax murder is one the NRA fanatics like to point out, so let's assume they were all murdered by axes. The homicide rate would still plummet by a third. Can you imagine ANY form of legitimate crime prevention that would drop the murder rate by one third in this country besides gun control? I can't. Maybe by doubling the number of police in this country, but that's a LOT of money conservatives, remember? Where are we going to get it from? This is cheap.

Yes, people will still have guns. Nobody is saying outlaw hunting, and yes people will still get guns. As the quote up comment says, gun murderers still happen in country with gun control. The point is to REDUCE them people. Despite how many of you think, the world is not black and white. To say that because all gun crime won't stop therefore we shouldn't have gun control is the dumbest farking argument in the book. People still die in auto accidents, despite modern safety measures. Nobody is saying that we should then toss all the safety measures.

No, you don't need a gun for safety. You don't. If someone kills you from a distance, a gun won't help you anyway, because you don't walk around with it in your hand. This isn't the Wild West, despite how often some of you claim it is with all the minorities committing crimes. A lot of murders happen at close range. Ranges where non-lethal deterrence works. Ever seen a taser fail to drop someone? It's pretty rare. What's more, a taser can be used exactly as a gun would be used, is as easy to pull out, and can be used just as quickly as a gun. In other words, you're no less safe.


Wait a minute: You get your public policy information from fictional TV shows? Even worse, ones that are 15 years old? That's like taking your talking points from Meat-head on All In The Family
2012-07-01 10:25:18 AM  
2 votes:
They trolled the morans. Good on them.
2012-07-01 08:16:27 PM  
1 votes:

vygramul: Silly Jesus: 12% of the U.S. population accounts for 56% of the homicides by gun.

I'd agree with you that culture plays a huge role in this.

How do those numbers look once you control for poverty?


Not sure what you're getting at...

It's all intertwined and turns into "which came first, the chicken or the egg" really quick.

Single parent homes are a great predictor of crime / poverty in all countries, and almost 7 out of 10 blacks in the U.S. are raised in a single parent home...single parent homes are largely the result of cultural influences / norms...poverty is tied to crime...a culture that glamorizes crime...a culture that pulls the educated back down to their level because they are "acting white"...etc. etc.

You can't untangle it all...but I believe that you will always end up back at "culture."

Basically, what Bill Cosby has said and been chastised for.
2012-07-01 07:39:13 PM  
1 votes:

rewind2846: As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States, where we have them to the point of fetishism.


Makes perfect sense. Pay American prices for semi-automatic assault weapons, or buy fully automatic AK-47s by the truck load for pennies on the dollar. I'm sure they're all lining up to buy weapons in the U.S.

The traceable guns are mostly traced back to the US. Why? Because we have a system in place to trace purchases. Solution - buy from a source outside the US that doesn't have trace purchases. That's why the vast majority of guns recovered from Mexican cartels are untraceable.
2012-07-01 04:35:07 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Having only read the first page of this thread, I'm going to guess that the thread didn't turn out like subby thought it would.


Maybe, but it did turn out the way the rest of us knew it would. Hell I've been in this same thread three or four times in the last few months. Here's the list, you see if all the bases are covered;

1) more guns = more death
2) no it doesn't idiot here's why
3)you're ignoring me
4)no you're just to stupid to research properly
5) the War on drugs is the real problem
6) gun pic
7) funny pic
8) Simpsons references
9) the NRA is racist
10)well it's not like criminals register their guns or obtain them legally
11)I swear to god guys more guns = more death are you too stupid to get that
12)are you too stupid to read easily obtainable information
13) spoonsmademefat.jpg
14) Syria has great gun control laws, less gun death over there
15) thread becomes gun porn

/to infinity
2012-07-01 02:23:28 PM  
1 votes:

meanmutton: Coming on a Bicycle: There are 'pro-gun'groups? What do they do all day - shoot each other?

I don't even begin to understand how that logic works. That's like saying that pro choice groups sit around performing abortions on each other.


They sit on blenders for fun I guess.
2012-07-01 02:18:22 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Silly Jesus: Yes, but the mentality of the "get the guns off the streets" people is that of "people don't kill people, guns do, so if we get rid of guns, all will live in peace." These guys are just replacing broken guns with working ones. OMG MORE EVIL GUNS. I think it's funny.

It is? You better go tell them that, because they sure aren't saying it.


FTFA:

"We host the gun turn-in event on an annual basis to encourage residents to turn in their guns so we can take guns off the street and it's unfortunate that this group is abusing a program intended to increase the safety of our communities," said Melissa Stratton, a police spokeswoman.

LOL

/the comments are an even bigger hoot
//though I do agree that the NRA shouldn't have bragged about it, just kept quietly milking the cash cow
2012-07-01 01:56:42 PM  
1 votes:

BolloxReader: As a libtard, I think that we should require gun safety classes in school, or push people to take classes on their own with the NRA or other groups. In fact, iirc the NRA was established because the US military couldn't afford to teach how to use a firearm following the Civil War, and they basically decided to fill the gap by teaching everyone they could how to operate firearms. It wasn't until later that they started all the lobbying, etc.

This makes a lot more sense to me than "getting guns off the streets." I mean, it is good to get surplus firearms away from people who have no interest in owning them or who don't know how to care for them. But more than that, it's better to teach people how to handle dangerous things safely rather than just run away from a hunk of iron like it was a foaming-at-the-mouth pit bull.

Or, as the song goes, "Fear is the mindkiller." Demystify, remove the fear due to ignorance, and teach how to properly use them. My high school had driver's ed as part of its curriculum, and as the driver's ed teacher was fond of saying "There's no Constitutional guarantee to driving privileges." Yet we ignore something that IS Constitutionally protected. In 2010, 32,800 people were killed in auto accidents in the US, versus about 31,200 gun deaths. People fear guns far more than they fear cars. despite the odds of dying in an accident are the same or higher than by dying in a shooting.

Alternately, we could try to ban cars since they aren't protected by the Constitution and are obviously extremely deadly.


Despite the equal numbers, nearly all innocent civilians need to worry much more about cars than guns. A crash can happen to anyone while the great majority of gun killings happen to people who have specifically put themselves at risk by placing firearms around untrained individuals, being involved in crime, crime, associating with individuals involved in crime, being in an area known for crime, or assaulting neighborhood watchmen.
2012-07-01 01:36:22 PM  
1 votes:

arentol: GAT_00: Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do

And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

Seriously? Anything you had to say went in the crapper the second you quoted a TV show, especially one with an agenda and that is horribly, horribly, horribly, wrong anyway.

For instance, in 2009 the UK alone had 138 deaths by firearms.... So apparently those other countries you listed have figured out how to bring the dead back to life by shooting them? But wait, France had 142 in 2008.... Are all the doctors in these other nations armed with magical resurrecting firearms or something?

Lets add them up from the most recent numbers available.....

UK 138
France 142
Germany 953
Switzerland 279
Sweden 138
Denmark 79
Australia 225
Italy 799
Spain 307
Total = 3060

I replaced Japan with Italy and Spain since Japan hasn't provided good numbers for over a decade, making their numbers useless. Italy and Spain seem appropriate to me since they have 1/3rd the gun ownership rate of France and Germany (~10 per 100 in Italy and Spain vs ~30 per 100 in both France and Germany), both are 1st world nations just as much as any of those listed, making them a fair choice. It also helps offset the cherry-picked nature of these numbers just a tad.

If you look at the deaths by gun to gun ownership rate in those countries you will see that some of them have just as high a rate as the US, others have much lower. But more importantly, if you look at historical numbers you will find that in Australia and the UK, both countries that have enacted strong gun control laws relatively recently, the death ...



What, you disagree with him? That means you're ignoring him you partisan!
2012-07-01 01:24:22 PM  
1 votes:
Let me get this straight - two groups of d-bags game the system to promote their own agendas while the hard-working tax payers get stuck with the bill?

So, business as usual then?
2012-07-01 12:48:32 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do

And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?


You're joking, right? The Swiss ISSUE guns to their citizens! In 2011 they rejected stricter gun laws. Switzerland has the highest militia gun ownership rate in the world!

Please hurry up and quote Meathead so I can also shoot holes in those fictional statements.
2012-07-01 12:47:21 PM  
1 votes:
just start shooting the right people and we can all enjoy a nicer place to live. fark that heartbreak homicide-suicide noise or street crime. go bag a few politicians and captains of industry. every week. pretty soon the rest of them will catch on and we'll see all sorts of things improve in america.
2012-07-01 12:45:34 PM  
1 votes:
As a libtard, I think that we should require gun safety classes in school, or push people to take classes on their own with the NRA or other groups. In fact, iirc the NRA was established because the US military couldn't afford to teach how to use a firearm following the Civil War, and they basically decided to fill the gap by teaching everyone they could how to operate firearms. It wasn't until later that they started all the lobbying, etc.

This makes a lot more sense to me than "getting guns off the streets." I mean, it is good to get surplus firearms away from people who have no interest in owning them or who don't know how to care for them. But more than that, it's better to teach people how to handle dangerous things safely rather than just run away from a hunk of iron like it was a foaming-at-the-mouth pit bull.

Or, as the song goes, "Fear is the mindkiller." Demystify, remove the fear due to ignorance, and teach how to properly use them. My high school had driver's ed as part of its curriculum, and as the driver's ed teacher was fond of saying "There's no Constitutional guarantee to driving privileges." Yet we ignore something that IS Constitutionally protected. In 2010, 32,800 people were killed in auto accidents in the US, versus about 31,200 gun deaths. People fear guns far more than they fear cars. despite the odds of dying in an accident are the same or higher than by dying in a shooting.

Alternately, we could try to ban cars since they aren't protected by the Constitution and are obviously extremely deadly.
2012-07-01 12:44:22 PM  
1 votes:
I've known two people who died in car crashes. I've known nobody personally who has died from gunshot wounds. But old age is the worst killer. Ban old age and I'm with you.

Nobody gets out of here alive.

/Just saying. No real point.
//Guns. Meh. Banning guns. Meh.
2012-07-01 12:43:57 PM  
1 votes:
i1184.photobucket.com
2012-07-01 12:38:39 PM  
1 votes:

serial_crusher: You guys think I should start my own gun buyback program just to stock up for the impending race class war?

2012-07-01 12:38:02 PM  
1 votes:

way south: Good.
At least that program will help do something to benefit the community.

/now think of all the cash gang bangers got from the buy back.
/it's a safe bet their new found wealth won't be used for anything upstanding.


Rims.
2012-07-01 12:36:22 PM  
1 votes:

Coming on a Bicycle: There are 'pro-gun'groups? What do they do all day - shoot each other?


Yes that is exactly what they do. How did you become so wise?
2012-07-01 11:39:59 AM  
1 votes:
Last time I looked at gun prices, $100 per gun was pretty damned cheap. You guys think I should start my own gun buyback program just to stock up for the impending race war?
2012-07-01 11:11:36 AM  
1 votes:
I once turned in a broken firearm. It was throated something fierce, and therefore unlikely to fire. But if someone tried, it could result in some severe unpleasantness as the shell casing disintegrated in the receiver.

So it is totally worth it to get those guns out of the public's hands and into molten steel.
2012-07-01 11:08:58 AM  
1 votes:

Silly Jesus: So what's the point in gathering up guns if it's not believed that guns are the problem?


Makes it a lot harder for people to shoot other people without em, doesn't it?
2012-07-01 11:02:05 AM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Silly Jesus: Yes, but the mentality of the "get the guns off the streets" people is that of "people don't kill people, guns do, so if we get rid of guns, all will live in peace." These guys are just replacing broken guns with working ones. OMG MORE EVIL GUNS. I think it's funny.

It is? You better go tell them that, because they sure aren't saying it.


He sure showed the people who live in his head!
 
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