MoeSzyslak: Mrtraveler01: DancingElkCondor: Umm...maybe Liberals may someday figure out....the problem with the large number of blacks killed by guns is not because of guns...its the other thing in the equation

They're poor?

This isn't Stormfront btw.

There's lots of other poor groups of people who manage to not kill people a crazy high rates. But of course anyone who mentions that black popular culture might be a factor is some mouth breathing racist. You know a culture that glorifies gangsterism, not working for a living, wasting all your money on gaudy bullshiat, impregnating as many women as possible and every other aspect of the ignorant thug lifestyle. The same culture that shuns education, parental responsibility, cooperating with police investigations and the traditional family structure with a father in the house. Nope all that stuff plays absolutely no part in their off the charts murder rate what so ever. It's all because they're poor. Never mind that there are still white people in Appalachia living without running water and electricity who have so far managed not to kill each other. The only reason why inner-city black youth murder rates are so high must be lack of money!

Being poor does not cause people to shoot one another. They are not killing in order to eat so they don't starve to death. The sooner the libs knock it off with this "it's because they're poor" justification and rationalization bullshiat and acknowledge that their are actual huge problems in this community that need to be addressed and worked out the better it will be for everyone. Or you could just continue shouting RACIST at anybody and everybody who suggests that it might not just be simply because they're poor and hope the murder rate will go down on it's own.

Oh and before I'm told how I think all blacks act in this manner and how racist I am I will again make clear that I'm talking about their popular culture. How many songs on the top ten rap charts are about anything positive or of r ...

12% of the U.S. population accounts for 56% of the homicides by gun.

I'd agree with you that culture plays a huge role in this.

My first gun, bought a couple weeks ago. Sadly, they were out of laser guided cop-seeking bullets and the shoulder things that go up.

Avery614: vygramul: It's also amusing they're so scared of guns like the TEK-9, which is little better than an isotropic bullet source.

I've never understood that either. It is my understanding that for the purchase and carrying of a handgun I need to jump through many more hoops than I would for a 300 Win. Mag. However, in terms of damage capability and accuracy, Winchester FTW.

Or a tube semi auto shotgun

vygramul: Silly Jesus: 12% of the U.S. population accounts for 56% of the homicides by gun.

I'd agree with you that culture plays a huge role in this.

How do those numbers look once you control for poverty?

Not sure what you're getting at...

It's all intertwined and turns into "which came first, the chicken or the egg" really quick.

Single parent homes are a great predictor of crime / poverty in all countries, and almost 7 out of 10 blacks in the U.S. are raised in a single parent home...single parent homes are largely the result of cultural influences / norms...poverty is tied to crime...a culture that glamorizes crime...a culture that pulls the educated back down to their level because they are "acting white"...etc. etc.

You can't untangle it all...but I believe that you will always end up back at "culture."

Basically, what Bill Cosby has said and been chastised for.

SuddenlySamhain: mongbiohazard: SuddenlySamhain: An even Cheaper method (that would also solve drug ,gambling ,child,elder,spouse ,ect. abuse as well as homelessness ,rape,theft from pickpockets to Enron and a range of other griefs plauging hummanity , including an inevitable war between the US and Russia BTW) would simply be to teach the biblical precepts of mercy ,generosity,patience and 'love of neighbor' to as many people and nations as possible.
But youd have to give up movies where people have their mouths sewn to other peoples assholes and forced to eat their poop .Youd also have to give up drinking junkets to Hooters as well. not to mention gambling trips to LasVegas.And Cannibal Corpse will undoubtedly disband and there wont be anymore weird porn to masturbate to online.If this actually happened we might actually start to see some real evolution forward..............Never mind


You say that... and yet the states with the highest murder rates are also some of the states with the most religious populations as well. Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.. The answer to lowering violence is not as simple as "we need more Jesus". The Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda are very religious people, mostly Christianity, and yet it wasn't that long ago that they slaughtered each other in a massive genocide.

"More Jesus" is simply not an effective method for reducing violence. It's just not that simple.

More who? and I also said 'never mind'


More Jesus. The guy who is at the center of the philosophical system you were suggesting it would help to teach about. I was suggesting that - while it admittedly sounds nice in theory - there's actually no reason whatsoever to believe it would be in any way effective.

Kaw Dawg: So, uh... Hey everyone, wha'cha packin??

Glock 30 SF (.45 ACP Hydra-Shok) with Bond Arms Snake Slayer (.410 buckshot) for backup

rewind2846: As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States,.

That's why all of those photos of guns confiscated from the Mexican cartels, have automatic rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers, hand grenades, etc. because every enlightened person like you knows you can buy those at the local Wal-Mart or 7-11.

\If Derpage was a Special Olympic sport, you'd be golden

Somacandra: cameroncrazy1984: Sounds like they had the same goals. Teaching kids about gun safety goes hand in hand with getting guns off the streets.

Agreed. Sounds like a win/win to me. I loved my gun safety course in junior high school. Still can't shoot skeet worth a crap.

Guns don't kill people. Skeet do. That's why we need more guns,

Kaw Dawg: So, uh... Hey everyone, wha'cha packin??

Depending on what I'm wearing, where I'm going, and the weather, I'm carrying one of these:

Walther PPS in 9mm 7+1 and another spare 7
SigSauer P238 6+1 and another spare 6

If I'm going somewhere that frowns on guns, I'll at least have a CRKT knife on me.

JosephFinn: Jesus, can we just ban terrorist groups like the NRA Democratic Party and get it over with?

GAT_00: vygramul: hate sexuality

That I blame on the Puritans. As for the violence, I think that may stem from a romanticism of a Wild West where guns solved everything and glorifying those who used guns best, plus Cold War trauma where ultra-violence was present as a possibility every day. I think that slowly traumatizes people and leads to thinking violence is acceptable. It is an interesting coincidence, or perhaps not a coincidence, that violent crime began to fall shortly after the Cold War ended. I wonder if anyone has tried to quantify that.

serial_crusher: Does a taser look as scary as a gun?

This is why I figure gun-style tasers exist. Familiar handling, plus the resemblance gets the point across.

serial_crusher: Since you don't appear to have any evidence, you just assert that only 50% would have still happened?

I'm operating on the assumption that some murders were planned out and were carried out by a gun. If someone decides to kill someone, the ready availability and ease of a gun makes a murder fairly easy to commit. Having to instead stab someone is a lot more personal and some people would not carry that out. Additionally, it is harder to stab someone than shoot someone at range 3 or 4 times. Stabbing is up close and personal, it's a lot easier to fight back, and I would think that the survival rate is higher. Therefore less murders would occur. Additionally, suicide is easier with a gun. Pills are reversible if you get there in time, working up a noose is quite a bit harder, and I don't think all that many people stab themselves to death. So suicides would drop.

serial_crusher: Yes, countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths.

Kind of goes with the point I'm making about how we could have fewer pointless deaths. I'm not sure why you find that argument hard to grasp.

Actually I believe more people survive being shot than being stabbed. Do you really think it would be better if your mother or wife or daughter would just attempt to go MMA against a thug with a knife? While I agree that it would be nice if there were fewer pointless killings I have no objection to a valid self-defense shooting. Are they 100% valid, surely not. Are MOST of them justified, they must be or the Brady Bunch would be able to cite real numbers from a reliable source instead of making up bogus statistics.

cretinbob: violentsalvation: So the gun-buyback program actually inspired something useful. Niiiice.

No, the NRA took money (not the first time) from a government program intended as an incentive to get hoodie wearing thugs to give up their working weapons and get them off the streets, not non-working pieces of scrap metal. The NRA has plenty of cash to use for education, and the programs are seriously flawed. replicas and bb guns should not be accepted and the weapon should be in firing condition.

//not anti-gun, just anti-stupidity

If the NRA could figure out how to game the system, don't you think the gang-bangers could as well? Some incentive.

mongbiohazard 2012-07-01 08:45:11 PM

SuddenlySamhain: mongbiohazard: SuddenlySamhain: An even Cheaper method (that would also solve drug ,gambling ,child,elder,spouse ,ect. abuse as well as homelessness ,rape,theft from pickpockets to Enron and a range of other griefs plauging hummanity , including an inevitable war between the US and Russia BTW) would simply be to teach the biblical precepts of mercy ,generosity,patience and 'love of neighbor' to as many people and nations as possible.
But youd have to give up movies where people have their mouths sewn to other peoples assholes and forced to eat their poop .Youd also have to give up drinking junkets to Hooters as well. not to mention gambling trips to LasVegas.And Cannibal Corpse will undoubtedly disband and there wont be anymore weird porn to masturbate to online.If this actually happened we might actually start to see some real evolution forward..............Never mind


You say that... and yet the states with the highest murder rates are also some of the states with the most religious populations as well. Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.. The answer to lowering violence is not as simple as "we need more Jesus". The Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda are very religious people, mostly Christianity, and yet it wasn't that long ago that they slaughtered each other in a massive genocide.

"More Jesus" is simply not an effective method for reducing violence. It's just not that simple.

More who? and I also said 'never mind'


More Jesus. The guy who is at the center of the philosophical system you were suggesting it would help to teach about. I was suggesting that - while it admittedly sounds nice in theory - there's actually no reason whatsoever to believe it would be in any way effective.


JESUS?? I thought that was Jeppetto !! Im pretty sure its Jeppetto

GAT_00: globalwarmingpraiser: Method is complately unimportant.

Yeah, it's equally easy to kill yourself no matter the method. The method has no meaning at all. I forgot you were actually this dense.

R.A.Danny: Except for those willing to throw The Constitution in the trash of course.

Every single amendment is flexible and has changed greatly in interpretation over the years. What's more, the Constitution was intended to change over time. So to stand there and scream that one amendment should never change in the slightest not only goes contrary to the actual intent of the Constitution, but also says that you think the people who designed the document to change were wrong.

gingerjet: I leave it to others to rip apart your arguments

I've yet to see anyone disprove anything or make an argument that I didn't already address and dismiss.

gingerjet: enshrined in our founding documents

See above.

Yes, there is a method specified in the Constitution for changing it, that method doesn't involve bastardizing the plain language it was written in or trying to redefine words to twist a new meaning out of them. If you really want to change the Constitution follow the legal procedure for amending it.

Your dismissal of reality only works for you, and only until reality chooses to impose itself on you or those you are responsible for.

Eponymous: rewind2846: As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States,.

That's why all of those photos of guns confiscated from the Mexican cartels, have automatic rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers, hand grenades, etc. because every enlightened person like you knows you can buy those at the local Wal-Mart or 7-11.

\If Derpage was a Special Olympic sport, you'd be golden

Derpage? If your tiny, tiny mind can fire up a few tired neurons for just one second, you might remember that american law enforcement agencies have been chasing guns into Mexico from the united states for a long, long time. Private sellers, gun shows in states with sh*t gun laws like arizona (where if it were possible to tweak the law so that people could buy guns in the 7-11 it would be done) and other avenues make moving guns and other weapons into Mexico much easier that the other way around. Why do you think Bush the Lesser started the Fast and Furious investigation?

How in the hell can people think that a state RIGHT ON THE MEXICAN BORDER that requires no permits to purchase, no licensing, open carry all over the place, concealed without a permit and no registration of either handguns, rifles or shotguns isn't going to be a farking bonanza for Mexican druglords and gangsters to get locals to stock up and ship right across the border?

Protip: Mexican authorities don't check for weapons like our border patrol does.

We supply the guns for their (really our) drug war.
We supply the money to buy the guns with (mexican drug busts net dollars, not pesos)
We supply the market for the drugs they sell.
And we also give their government MORE of our money so they can buy guns from us to fight the cartels, guns which eventually make their way into the hands of the criminals.

Pick up a f*cking newspaper sometime, dimwit. As I said before, it's not guns but ATTITUDES that need changing. Guns are just machines. It's the people that are idiots.

An army veteran with a bazooka his wall is less threat to society than a crackhead with a .22 derringer.

I approve.

Are there still people stupid enough to believe that guns magically jump into the hands of thugs and start killing people or that more laws will force the lawless become law abiding? Are we still having this conversation? Well I suppose that says something about public education.

I do like rewind2846's new meme "Bush started F&F". It is so fascinating how a bold face lie can become "The Truth" to a zealot.

titwrench: Robo Beat: trotsky: The problem is not with guns or even gun owners. It's the "gun culture" in this country.

American gun culture has always struck me as a sort of bizarre mix of dick-swinging hypermachismo and apocalyptic paranoia.

You couldn't be more wrong. Hunting for food, sport shooting, personal protection, none of these have anything to do with dick swinging and paranoia. I enjoy going to the range a couple of times a month and blowing off steam by myself, how does that fit your statement. Guns are tools no different than a hammer. If you give a hammer to a craftsman you will get a house. You give it to a psychopath you will get a crushed skull. Gun hate makes as much sense as hammer hate.

Is it still ok to hate psychopaths?

point being... a psychopath with a hammer might kill one or two people... a psychopath with a gun can go out in a blaze of glory killing dozens with little or no training... it's just too easy.
how do you prevent psychopaths from giving guns a bad rap?
that's the question.

GAT_00: If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

We're also a melting pot of many different cultures, including tens of millions of people formerly from Mexico, assorted African countries, etc., which are far more violent places to live. And we have enough guns in circulation so there's plenty available (much more knife deaths per capita in some of those countries you listed), yet not enough in the hands of citizens to eliminate crime entirely (Switzerland has one of the lowest per-capita homicide rates, by virtue of having universal gun training, as well as a very insular culture that keeps immigration low). All the studies on gun control laws show that aside from maybe criminal background checks, gun control laws hurt more than they help, since they impact legal gun ownership while doing absolutely nothing to stop criminals. If you take away guns, criminals just switch to machetes (which are more likely to kill you than being shot...) or running in large gangs and beating the crap out of you with whatever else happens to be available - baseball bats, clubs, rocks, etc. The only weapon that gives a citizen a good chance of winning is a gun. Towns which have passed ordinances requiring citizens to own a gun and be trained in its use have effectively zero crime per capita.

Just FYI, we're like 25th in the world for least murders per capita, which isn't that great but isn't horrible either out of close to 200 countries, many of which have a murder rate dozens of times larger than ours, including countries with nearly as many guns per capita as we have.

DerAppie: On guns for self defence: you primarily need a gun for self defence because you expect the other guy to have a gun. The other guy has a gun because he expects you to have a gun. Why would a burglar take a gun with him (Increased penalty when caught? At the very least an extra burden) if running away would be enough protection from someone who replied by bringing out a hammer/knife/baseball bat? It's no defence against murder since shouting out to people so they can see you kill them happens primarily in fictional works and it is no defence against rape. If someone drags you into a dark alley and you manage to overcome the surprise, momentum and instinctual reactions you'd still need to get the gun, aim and pull the trigger. Especially that last point is something nearly all people don't like to do when pointing a gun at a person. Use a gun to defend your family? From what? Other people who carry guns to defend themselves from gun owners while committing the crime?

In all those cases the addition of guns handled by both parties only increases tension and the chance that one or both parties freak out and shoot the other or bystand ...

Not true. The average citizen has very little chance of winning in hand-to-hand combat if the opponent is armed with anything, including knives, machetes, baseball bats. Even if the opponent is completely unarmed, your chances are not very good, since unarmed opponents run in packs. And running away? That's all very well if you're a fast runner, but muggers don't usually target young men in good condition. It's likely you won't get very far. Having a gun -does- ratchet up the conflict, but almost entirely in your favor, since most muggers will run away if they see a gun. And if the gun is concealed, you can choose whether or not to pull it out. Millions of crimes are prevented each year by armed citizens.

Gun debate to the left; Concealled Carry training Ad to the right. Way to go FARK...

Kaw Dawg: Gun debate to the left; Concealled Carry training Ad to the right. Way to go FARK...

We are a diverse people....

Sofa King Smart: point being... a psychopath with a hammer might kill one or two people... a psychopath with a gun can go out in a blaze of glory killing dozens with little or no training... it's just too easy.

And a psychopath with a bomb can kill hundreds. A psychopath with (enough) poison can contaminate an entire reservoir and kill an entire city.

What's your point?

On the other hand, granny has little defense against a psychopath with a hammer . Granny with a gun can kill that nutter.

fredklein: What's your point?

psychopaths are perceived as 'bad' people... especially when they kill large numbers of innocent bystanders ?

/more guns is always the answer.

Sofa King Smart: fredklein: What's your point?
...
/more guns is always the answer.

Not always.

But unless you can absolutely guarantee that 100% of all guns, everywhere, will disappear, all a gun ban does is disarm honest folks- criminals will simply get them illegally (they are criminals, after all!), or make them.

I'd rather have no gun laws, and face an armed criminal while armed myself, then have gun laws and face an armed criminal with no gun myself.

/Of course, ideally, I'd rather never have to face a criminal at all.

This is excellent! Dangerous (i.e. junk) firearms safely disposed of, and the proceeds go to teaching safe and responsible weapons handling to young citizens. Can't see a downside here.

My tuppence in the 2A argument: I accept that willing victims will never see my point of view nor I theirs, so I don't waste my time or energy on them. Whatever lurid scenario that might be presented is negated a priori by the right to self-defense common to all living things, predating all laws and constitutions. 2A simply guarantees that we have the means to exercise this most basic of existential rights.

rewind2846: Eponymous: rewind2846: As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States,.

That's why all of those photos of guns confiscated from the Mexican cartels, have automatic rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers, hand grenades, etc. because every enlightened person like you knows you can buy those at the local Wal-Mart or 7-11.

\If Derpage was a Special Olympic sport, you'd be golden

Derpage? If your tiny, tiny mind can fire up a few tired neurons for just one second, you might remember that american law enforcement agencies have been chasing guns into Mexico from the united states for a long, long time. Private sellers, gun shows in states with sh*t gun laws like arizona (where if it were possible to tweak the law so that people could buy guns in the 7-11 it would be done) and other avenues make moving guns and other weapons into Mexico much easier that the other way around. Why do you think Bush the Lesser started the Fast and Furious investigation?

How in the hell can people think that a state RIGHT ON THE MEXICAN BORDER that requires no permits to purchase, no licensing, open carry all over the place, concealed without a permit and no registration of either handguns, rifles or shotguns isn't going to be a farking bonanza for Mexican druglords and gangsters to get locals to stock up and ship right across the border?

Protip: Mexican authorities don't check for weapons like our border patrol does.

We supply the guns for their (really our) drug war.
We supply the money to buy the guns with (mexican drug busts net dollars, not pesos)
We supply the market for the drugs they sell.
And we also give their government MORE of our money so they can buy guns from us to fight the cartels, guns which eventually make their way into the hands of the criminals.

Pick up a f*cking newspaper sometime, dimwit. As I said before, it's not guns but ATTITUDES that need changing. Guns are just machines. It's the people ...

I hope you are a troll and not that farking retarded. Most of the guns they show in their captured booty photos are not for sale to the straw purchasers in the US. For a private citizen to obtain or sell a class 3 automatic firearm costs $10k at minimum. They don't sell grenades or rocket launchers to private citizens either. Most of the guns you mention are not coming from the US....pistols maybe to likely but not the big stuff. If you didn't have your head shoved so far up your ass, maybe you'd actually understand what reality looks like.

Eponymous: Most of the guns they show in their captured booty photos are not for sale to the straw purchasers in the US. For a private citizen to obtain or sell a class 3 automatic firearm costs $10k at minimum. They don't sell grenades or rocket launchers to private citizens either. Most of the guns you mention are not coming from the US....pistols maybe to likely but not the big stuff.

Hello, dimwit... the guns the cartel thugs use to kill locals do indeed come from here. The people that get their heads chopped off, are kidnapped, raped, dissolved in acid and generally f*cked up are done in with those small arms. The rocket launchers [citation needed] and other "class 3" weapons [citation really needed] you blather about in your apparent delirium, if they exist, are for show. Crips and Bloods don't use them and cartels don't need them, because you're not going to kidnap someone with a f*cking rocket launcher, you do it with a handgun. Those handguns are easy to get here because people here have so f*cking many of them and see no problem with letting anyone buy them by the carload with no paperwork whatsoever (arizona).

Also, haven't you heard... Mexican drug cartels have lots of f*cking money, more than either you or I will ever see. I happen to live 40 miles from the border (for 25 years now) and we have drug killings reported in our local paper.