R.A.Danny: Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

People have been strung from trees with crosses burning THIS year. Jobs have been denied due to race THIS year. Educational systems have been gamed to give the well off better educations THIS year. Are you saying that we're doing a great job here? The homicide numbers sure don't.

(Citation)?

I am not saying racism is not still around. Hell, look at the government they are always looking at what race you are. How about we stop having people fill out sheets identifying what social construct they belong to. Race has more in common with Santa clause than it does reality the difference I'd we tell our kids at some point Santa is fake.

What I am saying is stop biatching and do what is necessary to change your lot in life. Get to know people for connections and work your ass off when opportunity reveals itself. Work ethic + connections = success

Success = freedom to do what you want.

No pigment difference matters.

GAT_00: Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do

And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

More specifically, using this data from the CDC, which is the most recent confirmed data - 2010 is still preliminary - we have 31,347 people injured from firearms, 18.735 suicides by firearm, and of the 16,799 deaths from homicide in 2009, 11,493 were by gunfire. 68% of all homicides were by gunfire. That's absurd.

Do you know how many countries have a lower death by firearm rate than the US? 54, and those are just the ones we have statistics for.

Do you know how many countries have a higher death by firearm rate than the US? 11. Do you know what paradises those are? South Africa, Columbia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama and Mexico. Fantastic places, huh? Half of them have higher death rates because of country-wide drug wars. These are the places we are apparently trying to emulate.

Now, to head off the standard derptastic arguments:

No, all homicides will not cease. Don't be a farking idiot and try to pretend that's what I'm saying. As I pointed out, 32% of all homicides in 2009 were by other methods. Let's make a generous assumption. Let's assume that half of those gun homicides would still have happened by some other way. Ax murder is one the NRA fanatics like to point out, so let's assume they were all murdered by axes. The homicide rate would still plummet by a third. Can you imagine ANY form of legitimate crime prevention that would drop the murder rate by one third in this country besides gun control? I can't. Ma ...

Let's break out the truth from the lies please.

1) What number of homicides with ANY method in the US in a given year, compared with other countries that have a harder time getting guns? Do NOT include suicide (which I have see stats that included EVERY death by gun in the stat for gun related homicide).

Guns are easier to get in this country, so it is going to be chosen over a baseball bat, a knife, a car or other items.

2) What is the number of legally registered gun owners in the US in a specific year?

3) Related to the answer to question 2: How many legally registered gun owners commited a homicide involving a gun in the same year?

4) A question that probably cannot be answered: How many gun related homicides in the US are pre-meditated vs passion of the moment (you farked my wife so you both die, that sort of thing)?

A gun is a tool. INTENT is something we should be focusing on. How can we make people be worth more so that killing another human a deplorable moral choice?

/then again, there are 7 BILLION people on this planet. It's getting a little crowded.
//An armed society is a polite society.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/gunthreadkq4 rb7.gif

Well, we're off on the same pattern as usual:

1. no one wants to take your guns, you're just a paranoid nutcase
2. we should take away your guns

Maybe we could follow this up with:

1. no one is trying to outlaw abortion
2. we just want to do everything we can to keep you from having an abortion

titwrench: lease enlighten me as to how this is nonsensical and please feel free to only pull 2 or 3 words out of this post and ignore the whole point again if it helps your next convoluted statement.

Please feel free to tell us again that sticks are as dangerous as guns. It gets funnier every time.

Or pretend you didn't write it. That's a gutbuster, too.

jaytkay: titwrench: lease enlighten me as to how this is nonsensical and please feel free to only pull 2 or 3 words out of this post and ignore the whole point again if it helps your next convoluted statement.

Please feel free to tell us again that sticks are as dangerous as guns. It gets funnier every time.

Or pretend you didn't write it. That's a gutbuster, too.

In the hands of someone that means you harm a stick is absolutely as dangerous as a gun. Again since you didn't understand it the first time the person is the danger not the tool. Think about the point, look at the big picture, think about what you are arguing against. Try not to miss the point and post something stupid again. I have faith that you can grasp this concept if you try and set aside your myopic view of one tiny detail of a much bigger point. I'm pulling for you champ, you can do it.

Silly Jesus: cameroncrazy1984: Silly Jesus: Yes, but the mentality of the "get the guns off the streets" people is that of "people don't kill people, guns do, so if we get rid of guns, all will live in peace." These guys are just replacing broken guns with working ones. OMG MORE EVIL GUNS. I think it's funny.

It is? You better go tell them that, because they sure aren't saying it.

So what's the point in gathering up guns if it's not believed that guns are the problem?

taking guns away from irresponsible owners, and giving them to kids who are going to be good owners.

jso2897: Silly Jesus: They trolled the morans. Good on them.

Really? I'm not sure I see a downside here. A bunch of shiatty, broken, dangerous firearms have been taken off the street, and funding provided to teach kids responsible firearms use. Who, exactly, is a "moran" here?

The moran is anyone who argues that keyboards troll Fark threads.

R.A.Danny: The same media that is in a tizzy over the number of guns in the hands of criminals wants you to be unarmed.

Nah. Murder is a one minute news blurb. Rape and burglary barely even make the front page. Barricade situations, shootouts, stand your ground cases? Now you're talking 24-hour newscycle gold.

GoldSpider: The moran is anyone who argues that keyboards troll Fark threads.

... I gotta save that one.

Getting unsafe, rusty junk off the streets and replacing them with safe guns that will be used to teach kids gun safety and will be locked up properly so they won't be stolen? Great!

Can we get some better gun laws too? Fast and Furious was hamstrung by weak gun laws and lazy prosecutors.

cameroncrazy1984: Silly Jesus: So what's the point in gathering up guns if it's not believed that guns are the problem?

Makes it a lot harder for people to shoot other people without em, doesn't it?

Which was my point....that you disagreed with...

facepalm.jpg

GAT_00: Silly Jesus: people don't kill people, guns do

And guns kill people a lot easier than anything else.

To steal from West Wing:

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

More specifically, using this data from the CDC, which is the most recent confirmed data - 2010 is still preliminary - we have 31,347 people injured from firearms, 18.735 suicides by firearm, and of the 16,799 deaths from homicide in 2009, 11,493 were by gunfire. 68% of all homicides were by gunfire. That's absurd.

Do you know how many countries have a lower death by firearm rate than the US? 54, and those are just the ones we have statistics for.

Do you know how many countries have a higher death by firearm rate than the US? 11. Do you know what paradises those are? South Africa, Columbia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama and Mexico. Fantastic places, huh? Half of them have higher death rates because of country-wide drug wars. These are the places we are apparently trying to emulate.

Now, to head off the standard derptastic arguments:

No, all homicides will not cease. Don't be a farking idiot and try to pretend that's what I'm saying. As I pointed out, 32% of all homicides in 2009 were by other methods. Let's make a generous assumption. Let's assume that half of those gun homicides would still have happened by some other way. Ax murder is one the NRA fanatics like to point out, so let's assume they were all murdered by axes. The homicide rate would still plummet by a third. Can you imagine ANY form of legitimate crime prevention that would drop the murder rate by one third in this country besides gun control? I can't. Ma ...

dittybopper: Wait a minute: You get your public policy information from fictional TV shows? Even worse, ones that are 15 years old? That's like taking your talking points from Meat-head on All In The Family

^ This

Or meat wad from ATHF

Plenty of information on Teh Googles about Britain under reporting gun crimes, so GAT_00 statements are even more laughable

HighlanderRPI: dittybopper: Wait a minute: You get your public policy information from fictional TV shows? Even worse, ones that are 15 years old? That's like taking your talking points from Meat-head on All In The Family

^ This

Or meat wad from ATHF

Plenty of information on Teh Googles about Britain under reporting gun crimes, so GAT_00 statements are even more laughable

Or Meatloaf from....Meatloaf.

Mrtraveler01: dittybopper: Funny thing is, the NRA doesn't fetishize anything.

You haven't been to a gun show.

I've been to many gun shows around Atlanta. Never seen an NRA fetish for sale much less an NRA-gun-fetish booth. Most of the booths don't even sell guns.

I'm thinking you haven't been to a gun show.

/Gun owner and concealed carrier
//Not an NRA member
///No desire to be

"That board with a nail in it may have defeated us, but the humans won't stop there. They'll make bigger boards with bigger nails, and soon, they will make a board with a nail so big it will destroy them all!"

serial_crusher: I tend to agree with this one, but with a few caveats. The taser gives you one shot, so if you miss you're farked. But you're usually probably close enough not to miss.

But even a hit doesn't guarantee it works. Heavy winter clothing stops all hits and even ordinary stuff will stop some hits if one of the probes happens to hit something hard--and both probes must hit or it's useless.

Also a big part of the usefulness of a gun is scaring away the guy who's trying to rob you. Does a taser look as scary as a gun? (That's not a rhetorical question. I'm genuinely curious about that one. Seems feasible that people would fear death more than unconsciousness, but maybe they still fear failure and arrest enough to get the same result).

It's not like it will kill you like a gun.


globalwarmingpraiser: Our drug laws also contribute to our high murder rate. I would love to see a comparison with outher nations homicide rates, excluding drug related homicide. This would give us an idea of what the effect of liberalizing our drug laws would be. In the end until we look at the true effects of these things can we act in a rational manner. But until we address these things we are not going to find any real solutions, for to the victim of a homicide, or any violent crime for that matter, the tool used to commit the act is much less important than the act itself. If my gun has no effect on you, then you you have no interest in my gun. Much like sexuality, drug use, or any other action.

I doubt the drug homicide numbers would be meaningful. How do you reliably define a homicide as a drug homicide?

A better approach is to look at homicides vs drug enforcement. The more drug enforcement (note: this includes prohibition) the more homicides.

Fark_Guy_Rob: That's only true if you are young, fit, well-trained and male. If you jerk-off to Jean claude van damme movies - sure. That's an awesome approach. *YOU* only need a gun because other people have them.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

Well, I do prefer to stay alive, even without the money I happen to carry with me or my telephone. The risk of dying to protect some goods which are insured just isn't worth it.

way south: The root purpose of the crooks carrying a weapon is either to use it or to intimidate.

With the chance of "using it' going up if your reaction to their intimidation is to pull out a weapon of your own.

way south: Depending on which version of events you believe: without the gun it would have ended with Zimmerman being beaten unconscious on the concrete where he fell. Its not hard to get a fatality out of that.

Without the gun Zimmerman would probably not have followed Trayvon. False sense of safety etc.

The question is: If you expect your attacker will be armed, why is it unwise to arm yourself?
Why would you willfully NOT be prepared for what the media has stated is norm?

Why do I need a fancy argument to justify being a better victim when God and Darwin both suggest I should arm and armor myself?

The problem is that you start an arms race. He has a gun, so I need a gun. He has a gun so I'd better make sure I shoot first. You're better of handing over your cash and valuables than pulling a gun in return. Your possessions and your life are insurable, it's just that it's hard to cash in on your own life insurance.

/Before you know it we'll be converting solar systems into vacuum tubes

More proof Gun Grabbers are morans

As much as the Liberal Derps want to spin, they are pissing themselves off inside that a weapons-buyback is being used to get money to the NRA.

Umm...maybe Liberals may someday figure out....the problem with the large number of blacks killed by guns is not because of guns...its the other thing in the equation

FTA...Boch said he doesn't think the crooks who have pushed the number of Chicago's homicides to 38 percent over last year's total are the ones handing over their weapons. "If you were a criminal, you would be a fool to go there with the police presence," he said. "What criminal would turn in the tool he uses to do his trade for a $100 card?"

Ric Romero/GAT_00....any comment?

Having only read the first page of this thread, I'm going to guess that the thread didn't turn out like subby thought it would.

Infernalist: Having only read the first page of this thread, I'm going to guess that the thread didn't turn out like subby thought it would.

probably not...

Infernalist: Having only read the first page of this thread, I'm going to guess that the thread didn't turn out like subby thought it would.

Maybe, but it did turn out the way the rest of us knew it would. Hell I've been in this same thread three or four times in the last few months. Here's the list, you see if all the bases are covered;

1) more guns = more death
2) no it doesn't idiot here's why
3)you're ignoring me
4)no you're just to stupid to research properly
5) the War on drugs is the real problem
6) gun pic
7) funny pic
8) Simpsons references
9) the NRA is racist
10)well it's not like criminals register their guns or obtain them legally
11)I swear to god guys more guns = more death are you too stupid to get that
12)are you too stupid to read easily obtainable information
13) spoonsmademefat.jpg
14) Syria has great gun control laws, less gun death over there
15) thread becomes gun porn

/to infinity

Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

Newsflash, play the race card and people stop taking you seriously. Work hard, network, and go where opportunity is. For that and you will succeed at some point.

What an excellent suggestion! Because, of course, every low-income family can easily afford to buy/rent a new dwelling in a more expensive suburb, as well as the deposits or down-payment on said dwelling -- along with the deposits for utilities, and the expenses of moving itself (the rental truck, taking a few days off work to do the packing, hauling, etc...)

And everyone can afford a reliable car and insurance to get them from that suburb to their new employer (since the public transportation often doesn't reach the suburbs). And it's a good thing everyone can afford daycare, too, since grandma doesn't live down the street any more and can't watch the kids for you,

bibli0phile: Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

Newsflash, play the race card and people stop taking you seriously. Work hard, network, and go where opportunity is. For that and you will succeed at some point.

What an excellent suggestion! Because, of course, every low-income family can easily afford to buy/rent a new dwelling in a more expensive suburb, as well as the deposits or down-payment on said dwelling -- along with the deposits for utilities, and the expenses of moving itself (the rental truck, taking a few days off work to do the packing, hauling, etc...)

And everyone can afford a reliable car and insurance to get them from that suburb to their new employer (since the public transportation often doesn't reach the suburbs). And it's a good thing everyone can afford daycare, too, since grandma doesn't live down the street any more and can't watch the kids for you,


If peopleofwalmart.com has taught me anything, it's that race has little or nothing to do with your lot in life......I'm not sure about the rest of the country but we have just as many white farkups around here as black. Don't get me wrong they segregate themselves, blacks in "urban" apt. complexes, whites in trailer parks. Which is funny because the "normal" people (white and black) in and around my neighborhood are far less segregated and far less racist. Racism, stupidity, and the inability to provide for yourself go hand in hand, regardless of whether white or black.

bibli0phile: Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

Newsflash, play the race card and people stop taking you seriously. Work hard, network, and go where opportunity is. For that and you will succeed at some point.

What an excellent suggestion! Because, of course, every low-income family can easily afford to buy/rent a new dwelling in a more expensive suburb, as well as the deposits or down-payment on said dwelling -- along with the deposits for utilities, and the expenses of moving itself (the rental truck, taking a few days off work to do the packing, hauling, etc...)

And everyone can afford a reliable car and insurance to get them from that suburb to their new employer (since the public transportation often doesn't reach the suburbs). And it's a good thing everyone can afford daycare, too, since grandma doesn't live down the street any more and can't watch the kids for you,

Excuses for failure are easier than problem solving....you are correct. All I hear is cliche. You assume there are not cheap work arounds.

Aikidogamer: bibli0phile: Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

Newsflash, play the race card and people stop taking you seriously. Work hard, network, and go where opportunity is. For that and you will succeed at some point.

What an excellent suggestion! Because, of course, every low-income family can easily afford to buy/rent a new dwelling in a more expensive suburb, as well as the deposits or down-payment on said dwelling -- along with the deposits for utilities, and the expenses of moving itself (the rental truck, taking a few days off work to do the packing, hauling, etc...)

And everyone can afford a reliable car and insurance to get them from that suburb to their new employer (since the public transportation often doesn't reach the suburbs). And it's a good thing everyone can afford daycare, too, since grandma doesn't live down the street any more and can't watch the kids for you,

Excuses for failure are easier than problem solving....you are correct. All I hear is cliche. You assume there are not cheap work arounds.

You seem to assume that everyone has the same advantages, assets, and access that you do.

Every time I see someone offhandedly retort, "Just do [this]," it's likely by someone blind to the advantages they've been handed, confident in their own "Joe Republican" bootstrappy-ness that their Rugged Individualism has been the sole reason for their success, and thus anyone who isn't living the American Dream must be a failure due to laziness or moral turpitude.

In other words, if your "solution" to a social problem can fit on a bumper sticker, you likely haven't thought the whole thing through.

Guns are good, mmkay.

Aikidogamer: microdome: GAT_00: microdome: Fewer cars=fewer car accidents

Which is why we have safety equipment in cars. As many people die today in car crashes as did in 1970 IIRC, but there are something like three times as many cars. Therefore, car safety has saved measures. So your argument is utter bullshiat. What you are actually arguing by using cars as an example is that gun safety and control is a good thing. So thanks for making my argument for me.

And firearms have safeties and de-cockers for the same reason. I still fail to see your point. Diminishing the number of ladders would diminish deaths from falls, which still is a nonsense argument for gun control.

Not all. My glock. 21sf does not. I prefer the safety between the ears.

Your glock does have a safety. It's called "safe action".

TRIGGER SYSTEM
The "Safe Action" system is a partly tensioned firing pin lock, which is moved further back by the trigger bar when the trigger is pulled.
When the trigger is pulled, 3 safety features are automatically deactivated one after another. When doing so, the trigger bar is deflected downward by the connector and the firing pin is released under full load. When the trigger is released, all three safety features re-engage and the GLOCK pistol is automatically secured again.
 
Also the guy taking about spray guns has no clue about the NFA. A semi auto is not a spray gun.

DerAppie: Fark_Guy_Rob: That's only true if you are young, fit, well-trained and male. If you jerk-off to Jean claude van damme movies - sure. That's an awesome approach. *YOU* only need a gun because other people have them.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

Well, I do prefer to stay alive, even without the money I happen to carry with me or my telephone. The risk of dying to protect some goods which are insured just isn't worth it.

way south: The root purpose of the crooks carrying a weapon is either to use it or to intimidate.

With the chance of "using it' going up if your reaction to their intimidation is to pull out a weapon of your own.

way south: Depending on which version of events you believe: without the gun it would have ended with Zimmerman being beaten unconscious on the concrete where he fell. Its not hard to get a fatality out of that.

Without the gun Zimmerman would probably not have followed Trayvon. False sense of safety etc.

The question is: If you expect your attacker will be armed, why is it unwise to arm yourself?
Why would you willfully NOT be prepared for what the media has stated is norm?

Why do I need a fancy argument to justify being a better victim when God and Darwin both suggest I should arm and armor myself?

The problem is that you start an arms race. He has a gun, so I need a gun. He has a gun so I'd better make sure I shoot first. You're better of handing over your cash and valuables than pulling a gun in return. Your possessions and your life are insurable, it's just that it's hard to cash in on your own life insurance.

/Before you know it we'll be converting solar systems into vacuum tubes

Problem is the arms race started a long time ago. Nothing you have done will change the fact that crooks will use the best weapons of the age to attack you, if they so desire.
You behavior in the moment has little effect.

Know how cops always mistake a kid with a candy bar for an armed assailant and blow them away (I saw this in a movie so it must be true)?
Criminals could do THE EXACT SAME THING!

Know how the media suggests a good thug must be armed?
The baddies watch the same television you do!

You can have the option to be armed or not. If your friendly and thoughtful crackhead mugger were to, say, be out of his farking gord, he might kill you by accident. You have no assurance he will disarm just because you tell everyone else to.

Arms races do not work that way!

bibli0phile: Aikidogamer: bibli0phile: Aikidogamer: Move then. I could not find consistent work in my small town so I moved to a suburb. You can make excuses all you want but the civil war was over close to 150 years ago and civil rights legislation was passed over 50 years ago. Why is it you are still crying about your skin color. Some people talk about fetishes.....

Newsflash, play the race card and people stop taking you seriously. Work hard, network, and go where opportunity is. For that and you will succeed at some point.

What an excellent suggestion! Because, of course, every low-income family can easily afford to buy/rent a new dwelling in a more expensive suburb, as well as the deposits or down-payment on said dwelling -- along with the deposits for utilities, and the expenses of moving itself (the rental truck, taking a few days off work to do the packing, hauling, etc...)

And everyone can afford a reliable car and insurance to get them from that suburb to their new employer (since the public transportation often doesn't reach the suburbs). And it's a good thing everyone can afford daycare, too, since grandma doesn't live down the street any more and can't watch the kids for you,

Excuses for failure are easier than problem solving....you are correct. All I hear is cliche. You assume there are not cheap work arounds.

You seem to assume that everyone has the same advantages, assets, and access that you do.

Every time I see someone offhandedly retort, "Just do [this]," it's likely by someone blind to the advantages they've been handed, confident in their own "Joe Republican" bootstrappy-ness that their Rugged Individualism has been the sole reason for their success, and thus anyone who isn't living the American Dream must be a failure due to laziness or moral turpitude.

In other words, if your "solution" to a social problem can fit on a bumper sticker, you likely haven't thought the whole thing through.

Anyone who is successful has failed before. It is how you deal with it.

vygramul: It's also amusing they're so scared of guns like the TEK-9, which is little better than an isotropic bullet source.

I've never understood that either. It is my understanding that for the purchase and carrying of a handgun I need to jump through many more hoops than I would for a 300 Win. Mag. However, in terms of damage capability and accuracy, Winchester FTW.

Mrtraveler01: DancingElkCondor: Umm...maybe Liberals may someday figure out....the problem with the large number of blacks killed by guns is not because of guns...its the other thing in the equation

They're poor?

This isn't Stormfront btw.

There's lots of other poor groups of people who manage to not kill people a crazy high rates. But of course anyone who mentions that black popular culture might be a factor is some mouth breathing racist. You know a culture that glorifies gangsterism, not working for a living, wasting all your money on gaudy bullshiat, impregnating as many women as possible and every other aspect of the ignorant thug lifestyle. The same culture that shuns education, parental responsibility, cooperating with police investigations and the traditional family structure with a father in the house. Nope all that stuff plays absolutely no part in their off the charts murder rate what so ever. It's all because they're poor. Never mind that there are still white people in Appalachia living without running water and electricity who have so far managed not to kill each other. The only reason why inner-city black youth murder rates are so high must be lack of money!

Being poor does not cause people to shoot one another. They are not killing in order to eat so they don't starve to death. The sooner the libs knock it off with this "it's because they're poor" justification and rationalization bullshiat and acknowledge that their are actual huge problems in this community that need to be addressed and worked out the better it will be for everyone. Or you could just continue shouting RACIST at anybody and everybody who suggests that it might not just be simply because they're poor and hope the murder rate will go down on it's own.

Oh and before I'm told how I think all blacks act in this manner and how racist I am I will again make clear that I'm talking about their popular culture. How many songs on the top ten rap charts are about anything positive or of redeeming value? Now how many songs on the top ten country charts are about criminality and other gangsta bullshiat?

/country blows
// just making a point about cultural values

serial_crusher: GAT_00: If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?

How do you think that statistic is relevant to anything? Yes, countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths. Way to go, Sherlock.
The question is whether they have just as many murders in other forms. Turns out they don't, but it's curious why you chose to cherry pick the particular numbers that you did.
Also worth noting the whole correlation vs causation thing there. For example, Mexico has some pretty strict gun laws but no shortage of murders. Just maybe there's other more relevant differences between the countries you mentioned and the US.

Way to not answer the questions. The only "relevant differences" I can see, having lived in and visited many european nations, is that most of these people see guns as things to be used in times of war, not lovingly caressed and fondled like children. With all the fear among US gun advocates that the evil guvmint is gonna take away their pacifiers, you would think that european nations which actually HAD fascist and communist governments and dictators would want to stockpile weapons even more than americans do. That, obviously, is not the case.

Meanwhile, people in the oldest representative democracy on the planet piss their depends at the mere (and quite remote) thought of experiencing what the europeans have over the last hundred years. Their paranoia is so ingrained and so deep that a presidential election (not a dictator's takeover, not a warlord's victory) caused them to rush out and buy thousands more guns because "someone told them" that this newly elected chief executive was going to somehow single-handedly rewrite the constitution, eliminating the 2^nd amendment with but a wave of his mighty hand.

As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States, where we have them to the point of fetishism. That's what the failed "Fast and Furious" investigation was about. In my opinion it's not the number of guns that needs changing, they are just machines. It's the attitudes that need changing. The number of guns will adjust accordingly.

rewind2846: As for Mexico... their gun laws are strict, which is why they illegally import the guns they use from the United States, where we have them to the point of fetishism.

Makes perfect sense. Pay American prices for semi-automatic assault weapons, or buy fully automatic AK-47s by the truck load for pennies on the dollar. I'm sure they're all lining up to buy weapons in the U.S.

The traceable guns are mostly traced back to the US. Why? Because we have a system in place to trace purchases. Solution - buy from a source outside the US that doesn't have trace purchases. That's why the vast majority of guns recovered from Mexican cartels are untraceable.