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(Discover)   104 years ago today, Russia participated in the biggest interdimensional cross rip before Ghostbusters   (blogs.discovermagazine.com) divider line 41
    More: Cool, Russian Empire, Death from the Skies, SciAm, blue-green, Long-distance track event, Ghostbusters, Rebecca Romijn, bolide  
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5802 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Jun 2012 at 5:18 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-30 05:24:17 PM
100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.
 
2012-06-30 05:28:57 PM
so does this article get greenlit every year or is it a quadrennial thing?
 
2012-06-30 05:29:43 PM

Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.


Educated guesses, how do they work?
 
2012-06-30 05:37:31 PM
What about the twinkie?
 
2012-06-30 05:59:58 PM
I thought that was Tesla's beam gone wrong. Or maybe I read too much Spider Robinson growing up.
 
2012-06-30 06:06:51 PM
In the movie he clearly says the event happened in 1909.
 
2012-06-30 06:09:52 PM

Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.


Two separate events. The clue is that Earth is not large planet.
 
2012-06-30 11:59:20 PM
"participated" Much in the same way a prison twink "participates" in a prison three-way
 
2012-07-01 12:04:30 AM
Weird. I was reading about this on Wikipedia while the site was down.
 
2012-07-01 12:40:25 AM
You notice what his previous post was? Yeah that's right... his blog was down at the same time as Fark.

SAME. TIME.

The conspiracy continues...
 
2012-07-01 12:55:07 AM

Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.


A chunk of comet ice would have produced the same effect, but left little or no obvious evidence, being mostly water. The lack of clearly identifiable extraterrestrial matter in the vicinity of the event points towards the possibility of the impactor having been composed largely of ice rather than rock.

Make sense now?
 
2012-07-01 01:00:19 AM

thomps: so does this article get greenlit every year or is it a quadrennial thing?


No, would-be-smart guy, 100th anniversary observances happen only once. But notable events do often get mentioned on or around their annual anniversaries, so yeah, you probably do see something like this every year. Just like Pearl Harbor Day. Can we look forward to you whining about that, too?
 
2012-07-01 01:06:23 AM

eddyatwork: In the movie he clearly says the event happened in 1909.


Not sure what movie you mean, but the event was more or less witnessed, so the date's firmly known: 30 June 1908. Phil's bending it a bit here, but it's close enough to a century for me. (It's not literally the 100th anniversary, as I snarkily said above, but I really do get sick of people whining about repeats. When people get older, they realise life is full of repeats, and you get used to it.)
 
2012-07-01 01:08:29 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: You notice what his previous post was? Yeah that's right... his blog was down at the same time as Fark.

SAME. TIME.

The conspiracy continues...


Got news for y'all: Midyear break (30 June / 1 July) is a very common time to choose for things like this. Phil's outage was planned, too.
 
2012-07-01 01:18:38 AM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: eddyatwork: In the movie he clearly says the event happened in 1909.

Not sure what movie you mean, but the event was more or less witnessed, so the date's firmly known: 30 June 1908. Phil's bending it a bit here, but it's close enough to a century for me. (It's not literally the 100th anniversary, as I snarkily said above, but I really do get sick of people whining about repeats. When people get older, they realise life is full of repeats, and you get used to it.)


Hint: It rhymes with reread the thread title postbusters.
 
2012-07-01 02:05:37 AM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Benevolent Misanthrope: You notice what his previous post was? Yeah that's right... his blog was down at the same time as Fark.

SAME. TIME.

The conspiracy continues...

Got news for y'all: Midyear break (30 June / 1 July) is a very common time to choose for things like this. Phil's outage was planned, too.


OMG Leap Second ALSO happened. Drew + Phil Plait + international timekeeper bilderbergers rosecrucians CHEMTRAILS BLACK HELICOPTERS SQUEEEEEEEEEE


//seriously, are you out there Phil Plait it's me Margaret
//OK less than srsly
 
2012-07-01 02:20:05 AM
Love reading anything I can find on the event. Cool stuff and always fun to read about how the universe can randomly come along and put a smack down on us humans. Plus that picture was cool!

/Phil fan.
//More death from the skies!
 
2012-07-01 02:56:38 AM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.

A chunk of comet ice would have produced the same effect, but left little or no obvious evidence, being mostly water. The lack of clearly identifiable extraterrestrial matter in the vicinity of the event points towards the possibility of the impactor having been composed largely of ice rather than rock.

Make sense now?


I think the original poster's point is that, either way, the material would have been extraterrestrial.
 
2012-07-01 07:03:07 AM

wraithmare: Love reading anything I can find on the event. Cool stuff and always fun to read about how the universe can randomly come along and put a smack down on us humans. Plus that picture was cool!

/Phil fan.
//More death from the skies!


I would more say its alarming how the solar system is slinging around objects that can inflict a nuclear sized blast at random intervals.
You'd think someone in government would be studying a solution to that problem.

/But they aren't.
 
2012-07-01 08:23:19 AM
I wonder how history would have been changed if it had occured over an important city. Anyone know of any good stories on the subject?
 
2012-07-01 09:24:57 AM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Phil's bending it a bit here, but it's close enough to a century for me. (It's not literally the 100th anniversary, as I snarkily said above, but I really do get sick of people whining about repeats.


Is Phil bending it? Let's actually, y'know, check the date and time on the article...

"June 30th, 2008 12:02 AM by Phil Plait in Astronomy"

Wow. Old news is SO exciting.
 
2012-07-01 11:00:14 AM
A helpful poster in the comments of that article left a link to a Der Spiegel article that postulates (somewhat convincingly) that there was in fact a crater left by the object, which is now known as Lake Cheko.

The article is in German but Google translates it well, and there are loads of photos showing the research on the lake as being a possible impact crater. Interesting reading for the kind of geeks that follow this stuff.
 
2012-07-01 11:29:05 AM

Gonz: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Phil's bending it a bit here, but it's close enough to a century for me. (It's not literally the 100th anniversary, as I snarkily said above, but I really do get sick of people whining about repeats.

Is Phil bending it? Let's actually, y'know, check the date and time on the article...

"June 30th, 2008 12:02 AM by Phil Plait in Astronomy"

Wow. Old news is SO exciting.


Well served. Carry on.
 
2012-07-01 12:23:25 PM

way south: wraithmare: Love reading anything I can find on the event. Cool stuff and always fun to read about how the universe can randomly come along and put a smack down on us humans. Plus that picture was cool!

/Phil fan.
//More death from the skies!

I would more say its alarming how the solar system is slinging around objects that can inflict a nuclear sized blast at random intervals.
You'd think someone in government would be studying a solution to that problem.

/But they aren't.


yeah, THIS! one might hope that there was moon launch sized program trying to at least identify all the possible problems.

/realize that there are some minor searches, but this is sort of an important thing.
//damn we got lucky it was nowhere siberia that got rocked.
 
2012-07-01 12:47:36 PM

A Fark Handle: way south: wraithmare: Love reading anything I can find on the event. Cool stuff and always fun to read about how the universe can randomly come along and put a smack down on us humans. Plus that picture was cool!

/Phil fan.
//More death from the skies!

I would more say its alarming how the solar system is slinging around objects that can inflict a nuclear sized blast at random intervals.
You'd think someone in government would be studying a solution to that problem.

/But they aren't.

yeah, THIS! one might hope that there was moon launch sized program trying to at least identify all the possible problems.

/realize that there are some minor searches, but this is sort of an important thing.
//damn we got lucky it was nowhere siberia that got rocked.


A few hours difference either way, it could have been London or somewhere in the first world.

/think of how that would have changed the world wars.
 
2012-07-01 01:14:35 PM

A Fark Handle: way south: wraithmare: Love reading anything I can find on the event. Cool stuff and always fun to read about how the universe can randomly come along and put a smack down on us humans. Plus that picture was cool!

/Phil fan.
//More death from the skies!

I would more say its alarming how the solar system is slinging around objects that can inflict a nuclear sized blast at random intervals.
You'd think someone in government would be studying a solution to that problem.

/But they aren't.

yeah, THIS! one might hope that there was moon launch sized program trying to at least identify all the possible problems.

/realize that there are some minor searches, but this is sort of an important thing.
//damn we got lucky it was nowhere siberia that got rocked.


In theory, such events can be of arbitrary magnitude. Though statistically, the chances are inversely proportional to size -- consider the thousands of sand-grain-size particles that fall to earth every day -- there's no upper limit, beyond the maximum size of available impactors. (In our case, the Sun, or if you prefer, Jupiter, though it makes no practical difference at that scale.) Tunguska-size impacts are currently considered 200-year events, and much bigger civilisation-threatening events such as Chesapeake (est. 35.5 myo) much rarer, at more like two million years. But the statistics only reflect probability, not surety, and any farmer along the Mississippi can tell you there's no limit to how many "hundred-year" floods you can get in one century. From that perspective, we needn't fear only Tunguska-size impacts, but also Chicxulub-size events (the one thought to have knocked off most of the dinosaurs). Any given impact could destroy us, at any time, so we can't be thinking about individual cities. If we're going to deal with this, we need to deal with it realistically, not merely statistically. What's at stake is nothing less than all civilisation, maybe all life on earth. It's a scandal that the budget for 'Deep Impact' is much greater than the budget for any real efforts to prevent us from getting pasted back to the Stone Age (or worse).
 
2012-07-01 02:34:32 PM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.

A chunk of comet ice would have produced the same effect, but left little or no obvious evidence, being mostly water. The lack of clearly identifiable extraterrestrial matter in the vicinity of the event points towards the possibility of the impactor having been composed largely of ice rather than rock.

Make sense now?


============================

Yes but an icy cometary body would not have made it low enough into the atmosphere before exploding to have caused the effects seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was tracked coming in from space for several days before the event. You need a big chunk of iron to account for that detail, but then again that raises the question of why there is no crater (and don't believe what the Italians have been saying about Lake Checko being the crater, this has been throughly debunked).

At the end of the day the myriad details of this event simply cannot validate either an asteroid or a comet being the impactor... and no, I'm not suggesting it was an alien spaceship or a Tesla experiment gone wrong either.
 
2012-07-01 02:38:57 PM
There is a book by Bill DeSmedt called "Singularity" (http://www.billdesmedt.com/) which puts a bit of a twist on the old Jackson/Ryan hypothesis, which posited that the Tunguska impactor was actually a primordial micro-black hole. It is a good thriller with secret agents, ex-KGB spies, and the whole "plot to take over the world" thing going on. Of course J/R has been discredited mainly due to the lack of an exit event in the north Atlantic ocean, but in the book the micro-hole was also a monopole, meaning it had only one magnetic charge, which greatly changes the game for the theory that the impactor was something other than a comet or a meteor. Primordial black monopoles are hypothetical objects that could certainly exist if the String Theory explanation of cosmic genesis (or something like it) is correct. I won't ruin the story by explaining any further, but it is a great read and actual physicists like Kip Thorne and Jaccob Bekenstein have endorsed it for its scientific accuracy. There's actually a free full audiobook version on podiobooks.com that is read by the author as well (http://www.podiobooks.com/podiobooks/book.php?ID=61). Additionally, there are a series of short seminars called "Dr. Jack's Soapbox Seminars" that explain the real science behind the modified theory of black hole-as-impactor. They do a pretty darn good job of explaining black hole physics, debunking things like the Lake Checko crater theory, and pointing out some tantalizing details that lend some doubt to both the comet and asteroid theories at http://www.vurdalak.com/.
There's no doubt that *something* happened in the stony Tunguska river basin in the early morning hours of June 30, 1908, and based on the areal phenomena observed by Evenks witnesses in the area it was most likely some non-terrestrial object impacting the Earth, but the brutal truth is that after 104 years we have yet to discover any "nail in the coffin" evidence that conclusively identifies what that object was.
 
2012-07-01 03:58:15 PM

lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Dr.Zom: 100 years ago today, a small chunk of rock or possibly ice was lazily making its way across the inner solar system when a large, blue-green planet got in its way.

Go on...

No debris has ever been conclusively identified as extraterrestrial, leading to some debate over whether it was a rocky asteroid or an icy bit of comet.

You lost me.

A chunk of comet ice would have produced the same effect, but left little or no obvious evidence, being mostly water. The lack of clearly identifiable extraterrestrial matter in the vicinity of the event points towards the possibility of the impactor having been composed largely of ice rather than rock.

Make sense now?

============================

Yes but an icy cometary body would not have made it low enough into the atmosphere before exploding to have caused the effects seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was tracked coming in from space for several days before the event. You need a big chunk of iron to account for that detail, but then again that raises the question of why there is no crater (and don't believe what the Italians have been saying about Lake Checko being the crater, this has been throughly debunked).

At the end of the day the myriad details of this event simply cannot validate either an asteroid or a comet being the impactor... and no, I'm not suggesting it was an alien spaceship or a Tesla experiment gone wrong either.


I have to ask what you're basing this assumption on, because I believe you're mistaken.

Ice does melt much faster than most metals, but it's not magical, either: Only the surface melts and ablates, and it holds up pretty well under some surprising circumstances and conditions. During WW2, the Allies were working on a material called 'pycrete' (after its inventor, a Mr. Pyke), which was just water mixed with sawdust and frozen. Pykrete had remarkable endurance compared to regular ice, so much that they experimented with building ships about of it. (A prototype sat on a Canadian lake for a full year -- and no, not in one of the northern territories, but in one of the hot prairie provinces.) Had the war dragged on longer, we might have seen some of those. You might also remember from chemistry class that clear ice melts fastest, but polluted ice can get much colder and melt a lot more slowly: to make slurry for traditional ice cream making, you add salt, and the water-ice mixture gets a lot colder. Ice from space is usually mixed with rock and dust and all kinds of stuff.

Also, things that fall to earth come in very fast. The forces and heat are enormous, but this all takes place in a very short span of time. I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of spaceborn ice doesn't have *time* to melt on the way down.

Anyone more knowledgeable want to chime in?

Regardless, I also have to ask the obvious question: Since it's indisputable that *something* happened, and you seem to strongly reject the only two likely theories put forth -- rocky body or ice body -- then what alternative theory do you think might explain it, or where do you think investigators might be mistaken?
 
2012-07-01 08:24:02 PM
The bit in TFA when they mention the dangers of the near-Earth asteroid Apophis...

I read that and was like "Oh, so THAT'S how they're justifying the Stargate Command budget now. Cool."
 
2012-07-01 08:36:53 PM

lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was tracked coming in from space for several days before the event.


farm3.static.flickr.com
 
2012-07-01 08:42:52 PM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:


I remember Dr Jack, you'll luv him - Kinda like 'Coast to Coast' only more legit since the guy uses an alias because :

"You see, the thing of it is, my department head has made it pretty clear that the University'd just as soon not be associated with my - quote - crazy ideas - unquote - about Tunguska. Not until and unless they pan out big time, anyway. And, believe me, I'm working on that."

That's a direct quote from his site.

"Dr. Jack's Soapbox Seminars"

t0.gstatic.com
 
2012-07-01 09:59:34 PM

Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

I remember Dr Jack, you'll luv him - Kinda like 'Coast to Coast' only more legit since the guy uses an alias because :

"You see, the thing of it is, my department head has made it pretty clear that the University'd just as soon not be associated with my - quote - crazy ideas - unquote - about Tunguska. Not until and unless they pan out big time, anyway. And, believe me, I'm working on that."

That's a direct quote from his site.

"Dr. Jack's Soapbox Seminars"

[t0.gstatic.com image 440x88]


================================

If you've listened to it then you know that his science is right on the money, so why the association with a whack job like Art Bell? You're comparing a guy who can back up his theory with actual science vs. some conspiracy theorist nut. If the guy's bosses in academia don't want to risk the blowback from portion of the scientific and academic communities who have forgotten how to be open-minded and objective (especially after the dust-up over Jackson/Ryan), I can't blame him for using an alias, but nom de plume or not, it is a scientifically valid theory. Yes, he does have a pretty crazy idea, particularly since objects like he posits have never been observed, though the math tells us that they could and indeed should. Then again neither has the higgs boson, but the folks at CERN have spent literally billions of dollars and have built the most complex and sensitive machine in history to try to prove it exists (among other things). If folks are willing to spend that kind of money simply because the math tells them that this object could exist... well make your own judgments about that.

My point about all this is that after more than 100 years, the comet and asteroid folks have yet to provide the evidence they need conclusively prove either of their theories, so what exactly is so "screwball" about proposing an alternate theory that is scientifically valid and fits all the evidence of the event?
 
2012-07-01 10:17:08 PM

lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.




rlv.zcache.com
 
2012-07-02 12:08:54 AM

Boatmech: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.



[rlv.zcache.com image 500x200]


=====================================

You can keep throwing that out there, but if you've actually listened to the soapbox seminars I mentioned, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.
 
2012-07-02 12:57:42 AM

lisarenee3505: Boatmech: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.



[rlv.zcache.com image 500x200]

=====================================

You can keep throwing that out there, but if you've actually listened to the soapbox seminars I mentioned, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.


Yes but most people haven't. Lay it out for us just in case I've forgotten a detail or two.
 
2012-07-02 12:26:24 PM

lisarenee3505: Boatmech: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.



[rlv.zcache.com image 500x200]

=====================================

You can keep throwing that out there, but if you've actually listened to the soapbox seminars I mentioned, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.


You're the one making the point, douche.
 
2012-07-02 04:38:23 PM

potato_chip_eating_geek: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the geomagnetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.



[rlv.zcache.com image 500x200]

=====================================

You can keep throwing that out there, but if you've actually listened to the soapbox seminars I mentioned, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You're the one making the point, douche.


=====================================

Yeah and this isn't a farking college research paper or a doctoral dissertation either, so you can all shove the "citation needed" bullshiat. I've provided a link already to the source I got that info from. Go do your own damn research.
 
2012-07-03 02:32:15 AM
Indeed, just think if the space visitor had blasted out over Moscow ... that being the home of Czars and some stage of Bolshevism ... quite a bit of history would have been done for.
I'm going to guess, all else being equal, it would have given Hitler a freer rein (and reign) over the continent.
 
2012-07-03 05:58:19 AM

lisarenee3505: potato_chip_eating_geek: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: lisarenee3505: Boatmech: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
lisarenee3505: Sylvia_Bandersnatch:

... seen on the ground, nor could an icy body have
caused the gamogenetic anomaly that was
tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event.



[rlv.zcache.com image 500x200]

=====================================

You can keep throwing that out there, but if you've actually listened to the soapbox seminars I mentioned, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You're the one making the point, douche.

=====================================

Yeah and this isn't a farking college research paper or a doctoral dissertation either, so you can all shove the "citation needed" bullshiat. I've provided a link already to the source I got that info from. Go do your own damn research.


Funny thing about Fark, quite a few of us have written a paper or two and a few Farkers have even (GASP!!) earned degrees in their fields.
Also you provided cites (2) to a frigging fictional book and (1) to the crack pot web site.

Still see nothing on this " geomagnetic anomaly that was tracked coming in from space for several days
before the event. "
 
2012-07-03 08:47:53 PM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: Indeed, just think if the space visitor had blasted out over Moscow ... that being the home of Czars and some stage of Bolshevism ... quite a bit of history would have been done for.
I'm going to guess, all else being equal, it would have given Hitler a freer rein (and reign) over the continent.


Without the Czars mobilizing in the days prior to the outbreak of war in 1914, Germany wouldn't have mobilized and Austria may have had free reign to knock out Serbia and end it quickly. Or they wouldn't have to worry about an Eastern front and they would have rolled over France.. No Hitler either way. Things would have been way different.
 
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