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(Daily Mail)   The world needs ditch diggers with degrees too   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 148
    More: Obvious, street sweepers, call centers, waste collector, academic degrees, street vendors, David Willetts  
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9848 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2012 at 6:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-30 12:48:50 AM
FTA: "Police said fecal matter was found on some of the returned bottles. They said the fecal matter was collected as evidence and submitted to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for testing."

Sounds like someone has a fun job.
 
2012-06-30 12:50:23 AM

PacManDreaming: FTA: "Police said fecal matter was found on some of the returned bottles. They said the fecal matter was collected as evidence and submitted to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for testing."

Sounds like someone has a fun job.


Wow, now testing enema nozzles for fecal matter, that would require a college degree, probably biochemistry or medical technology.

/my other comment was not half as funny.
 
2012-06-30 01:03:38 AM

feckingmorons: Wow, now testing enema nozzles for fecal matter, that would require a college degree, probably biochemistry or medical technology.

/my other comment was not half as funny.


Well, it's only funny because I posted in the wrong damn thread. And I'm sober, too.

*Sigh*
 
2012-06-30 01:24:01 AM

PacManDreaming: feckingmorons: Wow, now testing enema nozzles for fecal matter, that would require a college degree, probably biochemistry or medical technology.

/my other comment was not half as funny.

Well, it's only funny because I posted in the wrong damn thread. And I'm sober, too.

*Sigh*


I enjoyed and truly in context if seemed OK. The world needs microbiologists who look for poop on returned drug store items.
 
2012-06-30 01:36:04 AM

PacManDreaming: feckingmorons: Wow, now testing enema nozzles for fecal matter, that would require a college degree, probably biochemistry or medical technology.

/my other comment was not half as funny.

Well, it's only funny because I posted in the wrong damn thread. And I'm sober, too.

*Sigh*


It's gotta be the fumes from the shiat.

On topic: I'm not sure, after reading TFA, if I want to encourage my son to go to college. Maybe a trade school...
 
2012-06-30 03:01:39 AM
How would you like to come over and mow my lawn?

Mmm? Mmm? Mmm?
 
2012-06-30 03:22:10 AM
 
2012-06-30 06:59:08 AM
MOST jobs don't require degrees, morons. We're only in this mess, both here and in the UK, because people decided EVERYONE should have "a degree" regardless of if they wanted or needed it after high school.

"But I want to be a bricklayer after high school, why do I need college?"
YOU JUST DO NOW GET GOING!!!

Guess what: Most jobs and even careers don't require more than a high school education. At least insofar as what you need to be able to do. This is just one of those unintended consequences I enjoy gloating over when I have nothing better to do.
 
2012-06-30 07:09:58 AM
Remember when degrees were about enriching the mind and the quest for knowledge, not about job training?


It wasn't long ago, folks.
 
2012-06-30 07:14:56 AM

Gyrfalcon: "But I want to be a bricklayer after high school, why do I need college?"


.
.
Don't worry about that. On June 15th, 2012 Obama made sure that no unemployed American youth will ever have to concern themselves with getting hired for such jobs.
 
2012-06-30 07:15:57 AM

Gyrfalcon: We're only in this mess, both here and in the UK, because people decided EVERYONE should have "a degree" regardless of if they wanted or needed it after high school.


Maybe we need to divorce the idea of job training from that of education. Everyone should get some post-high school education. The more the better. Because I don't want to live in a world full of ignorant ditch diggers.

/Drugs and alcohol help...
 
2012-06-30 07:16:48 AM
Some of the problems the western world are facing are of their own doing. Parents want their children to have degrees, because the parents next door have children who also have degrees, and Christ knows these days it's about keeping up with everyone so you're not different. Then we have the governments themselves seeing a cash cow, huge amounts of money to be made off of students loans so what do they do...open more schools. I say open more, not better. The kids and parents paying "x" amount of dollars to put their retarded snowflake through school. I say retarded (not mongoloid, I mean in the classic sense someone whose learning ability is slow to non existent) because today if your kid doesn't do well in class it's not their fault. It's the school system. So what do you do? You change the system to make it easier to pass the kids, even though they can barely read, write, or do simple math. Then you have the kids who treat education like a 3 year long party. They get degrees in fluff that has zero demand and then enter the work force expecting to start at $75,000 a year plus full benefits. Face it. Without any sort of intentional joke, the system as we know it. Is broken. No one wants to bury the corpse and reform the education system.


This is an over simplification of the problem, but it's along those lines. Personally, if I could back 25 years and do it again, I would have gone to college instead of university. I'd take a practical trade.
 
2012-06-30 07:27:26 AM
HVAC for the win

Air conditioning and refrigeration tech. You won't get rich, but you'll always have a good job.
 
2012-06-30 07:28:30 AM
Im getting a kick. I have a business degree and I work in wastewater. I frequently find myself in human shi*t up to above my knees, getting sprayed in face with raw sewage, cleaning used rubbers, tampons, rags, grease out of clogged pumps. But oh yeah.. I make over 100k a year.
 
2012-06-30 07:29:45 AM

xanadian: PacManDreaming: feckingmorons: Wow, now testing enema nozzles for fecal matter, that would require a college degree, probably biochemistry or medical technology.

/my other comment was not half as funny.

Well, it's only funny because I posted in the wrong damn thread. And I'm sober, too.

*Sigh*

It's gotta be the fumes from the shiat.

On topic: I'm not sure, after reading TFA, if I want to encourage my son to go to college. Maybe a trade school...


one of my sisters has three sons, all under 30 college graduates. none of them could get a position in their chosen field: law enforcement, rehabilitative therapist, or teaching. my sisters youngest, her daughter, starts college very soon.

the girl has no clue what she wants to do or be. IMHO sending her through college in today's climate is wasteful. trade / vocational school is an excellent idea.

today's college degree is almost yesterday's HS diploma. most everyone has one and no one is impressed.
 
2012-06-30 07:31:10 AM

poe_zlaw: Im getting a kick. I have a business degree and I work in wastewater. I frequently find myself in human shi*t up to above my knees, getting sprayed in face with raw sewage, cleaning used rubbers, tampons, rags, grease out of clogged pumps. But oh yeah.. I make over 100k a year.


And you are WAY underpaid. I couldn't do it without puking all day, but I'm glad there are guys like you out there that can.
 
2012-06-30 07:33:49 AM
What do you say when a philosophy major shows up at your front door?

Nothing, just pay him for the pizza.
 
2012-06-30 07:35:04 AM
There's a fellow in my town that is in his 70's and is an HVAC tech.
He hires day labor to do the heavy lifting.
He has everything paid for and doesn't care one bit about retiring. works as much as he wants. Has core customers that keeps him busy.
IF he doesn't want to work he lets his business partner, who is 60, do it.
 
2012-06-30 07:37:31 AM

Basily Gourt: And you are WAY underpaid. I couldn't do it without puking all day, but I'm glad there are guys like you out there that can.


If I could wear one of those fully sealed space suit looking things... maybe. Maybe. But I have a feeling I'd be taking 3-4 showers every day after work...
 
2012-06-30 07:39:36 AM
The obsession employers have for "degrees" also compounds this problem.

I read job descriptions all the time that basically seem to go something like this...

"We want somebody to do something that really only requires basic understanding of concepts and a bit of motivation... And we want them to have a four year degree and two years of experience."
 
2012-06-30 07:47:04 AM
Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.
 
2012-06-30 07:49:03 AM

ronaprhys: Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.


As true as that is we're actually running up against people with marketable skills that seem to have nowhere to go.
 
2012-06-30 07:49:09 AM

poe_zlaw: Im getting a kick. I have a business degree and I work in wastewater. I frequently find myself in human shi*t up to above my knees, getting sprayed in face with raw sewage, cleaning used rubbers, tampons, rags, grease out of clogged pumps. But oh yeah.. I make over 100k a year.


Although I am not too familiar with that job market, I am given to understand such jobs are actually highly sought after despite the unappealing nature of them. Money talks...

Anyway I think there are a few factors coming together here. 1) Too many applicants for too few jobs. I read recently that for law students there were about 2 applicants for every job on average. 2) Mismatched skill sets/unrealistic skill set demands; it has been reported on fark a couple of times that employers want people with 4 years machinist experience and can't find anyone with it or they want someone to have 5 years of experience with X program even though X program has only been around for 2 years. 3) People holding on for dear life in their current job as they have no retirement plan.

I am sure there are plenty more factors that can be named but I'll put in those 3.
 
2012-06-30 07:52:06 AM

randomjsa: The obsession employers have for "degrees" also compounds this problem.

I read job descriptions all the time that basically seem to go something like this...

"We want somebody to do something that really only requires basic understanding of concepts and a bit of motivation... And we want them to have a four year degree and two years of experience."




Well, when you can choose between employing someone with a degree and someone without a degree.... why not get the person with a degree?

A First-Class degree classification from a good university in a traditional subject (be it a science or arts) is still one of the best indications, without intimately knowing someone, that a candidate is highly intelligent. The problem is you can't trust references, because most people writing them are far too nice, especially to say "Yeah, they did the job fine... but I wouldn't let them carry the scissors alone".
 
2012-06-30 07:53:56 AM

ronaprhys: Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.




Apparently conservatives believe the sole value of knowledge is that whether you can sell it for dollars. Aristotle smirks in your general direction.
 
2012-06-30 07:57:43 AM

Bungles: ronaprhys: Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.



Apparently conservatives believe the sole value of knowledge is that whether you can sell it for dollars. Aristotle smirks in your general direction.


It's ok, when they're back to beating each other with bits of prairie fence for clubs and yelling "Ug!", we can piss down from our floating brain-cities and they'll worship it as rain.
 
2012-06-30 08:04:39 AM
I find this thread to be lacking enough Judge Smails...

i149.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-30 08:12:19 AM
I don't mind the art major who spends 200k for a degree. That's their choice. Let them do whatever they want.

What I really hate are the government regulated b.s.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO PERFORM JOB X WITHOUT A LICENSE FROM US
YOU CAN ONLY GET A LICENSE BY ATTENDING AN ACCREDITED SCHOOL/ACCREDITED PROGRAMS
WE CONTROL HOW MANY ACCREDITED SCHOOLS EXIST
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS HAVE COMPLETE MONOPOLY OVER THE NUMBER OF NEW X
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS ARTIFICIAL LIMIT THE SUPPLY OF SEATS IN THEIR PROGRAMS
REDUCED SUPPLY MEANS INCREASED PRICE - TUITION SKYROCKETS FOR PROGRAM
NOBODY CAN AFFORD SKYROCKETED TUITION, EXCEPT GOVERNMENT RUN STUDENT LOAN SCAM
STUDENT GETS 300k IN STUDENT LOANS AT 7.9% INTEREST THAT ARE IMMUNE FROM BANKRUPTCY

It's really screwed up.
 
2012-06-30 08:25:19 AM
I'm a ditch digger with a degree, and I'm pretty sure I make more than a lot the farkers here.
Although the hole I dig is really big, and the dirt that comes out is worth a lot of money.

If you are are going to go into massive amounts of debt by completing a degree, it should have at least some aspect of job training in it that will allow you get a job so you can pay the debt off.
 
2012-06-30 08:29:58 AM

Hermit Tard: I'm a ditch digger with a degree, and I'm pretty sure I make more than a lot the farkers here.
Although the hole I dig is really big, and the dirt that comes out is worth a lot of money.

If you are are going to go into massive amounts of debt by completing a degree, it should have at least some aspect of job training in it that will allow you get a job so you can pay the debt off.



Or you should be native to one of the countries that still appreciates that the world needs many professions where the cost of training radically outweighs the personal financial gain by the individual, but greatly adds non-economic value to society.

The world needs historians, but an individual historian is not going to be rich. That's why society shoulders the cost across it.
 
2012-06-30 08:30:46 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: WE CONTROL HOW MANY ACCREDITED SCHOOLS EXIST
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS HAVE COMPLETE MONOPOLY OVER THE NUMBER OF NEW X
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS ARTIFICIAL LIMIT THE SUPPLY OF SEATS IN THEIR PROGRAMS
REDUCED SUPPLY MEANS INCREASED PRICE


"Homeless man's poorly-xeroxed newsletter" formatting aside, is this a real concern? I mean, I understand that there's competition for seats in a particular school's program when it is popular, but who has found themselves in a situation where they can't find a single accredited school that has an open spot in a particular program?

The price of a college degree has certainly skyrocketed, but it's not because someone is throttling the supply.
 
2012-06-30 08:44:30 AM
This is making me a chuckle a bit.

/in trade school
//wasted waaay to much money at university before looking around and realizing i was surrounded by idiots
 
2012-06-30 08:59:21 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: The price of a college degree has certainly skyrocketed, but it's not because someone is throttling the supply.


Then why is there a two year waiting list to get into nursing? And why are they sending people already in the field back to school instead of training them on site?
 
2012-06-30 09:08:51 AM

ajgeek: Then why is there a two year waiting list to get into nursing? And why are they sending people already in the field back to school instead of training them on site?


1) I googled the two-year waiting list thing and I'm not coming up with anything other than complaints about waiting lists in specific places.

2) Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. Nursing is largely a public-sector job and is subject to the whims of state government; some governors (such as the one currently destroying my state) have made it illegal for nurses to practice without a bachelor's degree, regardless of how long they've been doing their jobs. I'm pretty sure you can't skate by those kinds of requirements with a certificate of on-the-job training at a hospital, especially if you've already been working there ten years, but you'd have to ask the hospital about that.
 
2012-06-30 09:10:50 AM

Gergesa: poe_zlaw: Im getting a kick. I have a business degree and I work in wastewater. I frequently find myself in human shi*t up to above my knees, getting sprayed in face with raw sewage, cleaning used rubbers, tampons, rags, grease out of clogged pumps. But oh yeah.. I make over 100k a year.

Although I am not too familiar with that job market, I am given to understand such jobs are actually highly sought after despite the unappealing nature of them. Money talks...

Anyway I think there are a few factors coming together here. 1) Too many applicants for too few jobs. I read recently that for law students there were about 2 applicants for every job on average. 2) Mismatched skill sets/unrealistic skill set demands; it has been reported on fark a couple of times that employers want people with 4 years machinist experience and can't find anyone with it or they want someone to have 5 years of experience with X program even though X program has only been around for 2 years. 3) People holding on for dear life in their current job as they have no retirement plan.

I am sure there are plenty more factors that can be named but I'll put in those 3.


OK, so maybe I oversimplified it a little. Although I wouldnt say it requires a college degree per se, but our industry is extremely treacherous- both physically and financially. It is extremely technical mechanical work with large, heavy machinery and pipes, high voltage equipment and controls. It is almost best described as "contract by conflict" with many governmental agencies due to budget shortfalls, thus it requires strategic thinking and planning to stay ahead and not get fu*cked. It is not so much they are vindictive, but many simply dont understand the legalese in the long contracts and will interpret it in a way that feeds their egos rather than the benefit of the project.

Digging ditches and getting sprayed with human excrement is the easy part- Staying out of court, out of the red, and not getting you or one of your employees killed in a 38 foot deep excavation is the hard part.

None of which require a college degree-- The main guy of our company constantly outsmarts powerful attorneys, city engineers, city councils and has taught me almost everything I know. He never went to a day of college- In fact, he spent 2 years in prison in the '70's.
 
2012-06-30 09:28:40 AM
Bungles

Or you should be native to one of the countries that still appreciates that the world needs many professions where the cost of training radically outweighs the personal financial gain by the individual, but greatly adds non-economic value to society.

The world needs historians, but an individual historian is not going to be rich. That's why society shoulders the cost across it.


I agree. The system that was in place in Australia when I went to university (not sure if the same rules still apply) was called HECS (Higher Education Contribution scheme).

The way the HECS system worked, you were able to enroll and complete your subjects with out having to pay anything upfront. Once you completed your degree ( or dropped out), you ended up with a HECS debt.
That debt was then taken automatically out as part of your taxes when you are working. However, if you were not earning over a certain amount ( I think it was 40K p.a.), then the payments were not taken out. If you left the country for a certain period ( 8 years I think), then the HECS debt was written off as a bad debt.

The other benefit was, was that a HECS debt does not accrue interest (it is adjusted for inflation), and does not affect your credit rating. So if you end up with a massive HECS debt, but are unable to generate a reasonable income, it is not something that can destroy your life.

That type of system does allow people to study degrees that don't normally put people into high paid profressions, but does allow them to further their education. It also means people don't have to expect a higher pay package simply because they have gone to university (which is what the article was biatching about. Well, I think it was, I didn't read the whole thing...don't think I finished the first paragraph).

That doesn't change my original stance that if you are going to incur a massive amount of debt for a degree, it should have some aspect of job training to allow to get a job to pay it off.

If you do take on the debt with a degree with very little prospects of getting you a job that will help you pay it off, and your life is ruined because of that debt, then you made a poor life choice and have not one to blame but yourself.
 
2012-06-30 09:40:04 AM

Basily Gourt: HVAC for the win

Air conditioning and refrigeration tech. You won't get rich, but you'll always have a good job.


My oldest son son stated as an apprentice plumber last summer. I couldn't be happier, or prouder. Thank god I had a friend with a plumbing business
 
2012-06-30 09:41:21 AM
You know something?

Replace certain consonants in the phrase "the world needs ditch diggers too" with alphabet letters 'B' and 'N'.

Now I understand.
 
2012-06-30 09:42:41 AM

wildcardjack: What do you say when a philosophy major shows up at your front door?

Nothing, just pay him for the pizza.



Especially if he's wearing a pair of swords.
 
2012-06-30 09:46:37 AM

randomjsa: The obsession employers have for "degrees" also compounds this problem.

I read job descriptions all the time that basically seem to go something like this...

"We want somebody to do something that really only requires basic understanding of concepts and a bit of motivation... And we want them to have a four year degree and two years of experience."


No. The issue is that businesses wanted a justification for throwing someone with 20 years of experience out on the street, and replace them with a bright and shining new face who will work for an entry level wage. That worked great in the 80s when the only people with a degree are in management.

Now they are trying to find a way to throw people WITH degrees and 20 years of experience out on the street and replace them with shining new faces that will work for an entry level wage. Thus the MBA...
 
2012-06-30 09:54:38 AM

ronaprhys: Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.


media.tumblr.com
 
2012-06-30 10:00:48 AM

Alleyoop: I find this thread to be lacking enough Judge Smails...


It's easy to grin
When your ship comes in
And you've got the stock market beat

But the man worthwhile
Is the man who can smile
When his shorts are too tight in the seat
 
2012-06-30 10:05:36 AM
It's very simple. Nobody wants to dig ditches, so they go to college. The number of good jobs is finite. Creating more college graduates does not increase the number of good jobs available. Rather, it only makes every graduate less likely to find one, because they are simply increasing the amount of competition for those good job. The end result is Education Inflation, and every year the amount of education required to get those good jobs increases simply because employers can get away with demanding it. After all, the more graduates that there are in surplus, the lower their individual value. At the end of the day, however, the ditches still need to be dug, and the surplus graduates are left without chairs when the music stops.

The deeper problem is that we suffer from Viagra Culture. We idolize this prefabricated, prepackaged idea of "Winning" and sell it to people like a religion. This is why no one wants to do those ditch digging jobs - everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that all those jobs are somehow "beneath them." Which, if you think about it logically, is pretty stupid. Consider this question:

Which would cause society to collapse faster: Aliens abducting every ambulance chasing lawyer on Earth, or aliens abducting every garbageman? In the real world, "ditch diggers" who empty the trash, plow the fields, build the houses, cook the meals, do the laundry, repair the potholes, drive the buses and remove the alligators from your swimming pool all contribute far more real value to the essential functioning of civilization than any amount of paper pushing politicians, lawyers, bankers or MBAs spinning in their office chairs all day long.
 
2012-06-30 10:18:32 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: ajgeek: Then why is there a two year waiting list to get into nursing? And why are they sending people already in the field back to school instead of training them on site?

1) I googled the two-year waiting list thing and I'm not coming up with anything other than complaints about waiting lists in specific places.

2) Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. Nursing is largely a public-sector job and is subject to the whims of state government; some governors (such as the one currently destroying my state) have made it illegal for nurses to practice without a bachelor's degree, regardless of how long they've been doing their jobs. I'm pretty sure you can't skate by those kinds of requirements with a certificate of on-the-job training at a hospital, especially if you've already been working there ten years, but you'd have to ask the hospital about that.


A lot of few schools won't official state there is a "wait list". I taught at a school that had a "2-year" nursing degree, yet know one has ever finished it in two years. You apply to the school for nursing, they accept you. Then you can't sign up for nursing classes because they are all full by the time you get to enroll for classes (new students enroll after students who are already enrolled from last year). So you are encouraged to take core classes, some that won't count toward the nursing degree, but you need 12 hours to get financial aid, hope scholarships, etc.

Now the school won't tell you this when you enroll because they want the enrollment, it won't show up in a google search and they advertise it as a two-year school. So if you know someone trying to find a school, don't talk to the admin, talk to the students to get the honest scoop.

Also, for accreditation, you only need to show that it is possible to graduate in two years, not provide proof that anyone has ever done it.
 
2012-06-30 10:19:15 AM

Bungles: Remember when degrees were about enriching the mind and the quest for knowledge, not about job training?


That was before another landmark Supreme Court case, Griggs vs. Duke Power.

The US can make it impossible to require post-secondary education (save for medical or research-based science professions) or make a switch to post-paid models like HECS. If businesses really want something of someone and complain, they had better be willing to put up the training.
 
2012-06-30 10:26:13 AM
Good. A few years of manual labor won't hurt them; if anything maybe they'll better appreciate the work done by others.

NephilimNexus... I'm with you on most of that, but the notion that "the number of good jobs is finite" is false. I'm not saying the increase in good jobs is a direct or automatic function of simply having more college graduates, just saying that there is always more work to be done and there will be a certain percentage of people out there who innovate enough to create more good jobs for others.
 
2012-06-30 10:26:43 AM

Bungles: Apparently conservatives believe the sole value of knowledge is that whether you can sell it for dollars.


But if you don't agree with this sentiment, then why complain about not having a college-level job? That's not what you got the degree for, right?

If I had a nickel for every kid who told me college isn't about getting a job, and then I lost a nickel for every college grad whining about the system because he's still a barista, I'd have zero nickels.

/Not that it would have helped to learn a marketable skill
//Not if one can't process elementary cause and effect
 
2012-06-30 10:28:03 AM
MOST jobs don't need a farking degree. If you're going to work in drug development, or as an academic, or a teacher, yes.

But even some jobs that you think might think need a degree don't. To be a pharmacist or an optometrist, you can do a course. You can become a solicitor by doing a course.

Here's what I want my kids to do: either go to university because a degree opens the job doors (if you're going to be a programmer, it helps to have comp sci) or go to university because you're basically obsessed with a subject. If you're going to university for the sake of it, you're wasting your time and money.
 
2012-06-30 10:28:23 AM

NephilimNexus: It's very simple. Nobody wants to dig ditches, so they go to college. The number of good jobs is finite. Creating more college graduates does not increase the number of good jobs available. Rather, it only makes every graduate less likely to find one, because they are simply increasing the amount of competition for those good job. The end result is Education Inflation, and every year the amount of education required to get those good jobs increases simply because employers can get away with demanding it. After all, the more graduates that there are in surplus, the lower their individual value. At the end of the day, however, the ditches still need to be dug, and the surplus graduates are left without chairs when the music stops.


Or you can respond to the market by making the job something that a person would want to do. This might include a more attractive compensation package, hiring the person directly, treating them with a basic respect not known in this generation, or other things that induce people to dig ditches.
 
2012-06-30 10:29:59 AM
Ahoy, polloi!

Where'd you come from, a Scotch ad?
 
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