I think the problem is the classroom setting, where students spend most of their time memorizing information they forget after the test.

Training the young people is a good thing, but we should have more on-the-job training and less in-the-classroom training. Work experience is far more valuable than classroom experience.

NephilimNexus: The number of good jobs is finite.

Not exactly. We now have far more programming jobs than we did 100 years ago. We need people with higher skills than being able to work on a farm.

The problem is that the growth of college education hasn't been in engineering, architecture or even graphic design. It's been in subjects like psychology and journalism, jobs that get you serving fries:-

farkeruk: MOST jobs don't need a farking degree. If you're going to work in drug development, or as an academic, or a teacher, yes.

But even some jobs that you think might think need a degree don't. To be a pharmacist or an optometrist, you can do a course. You can become a solicitor by doing a course.

Here's what I want my kids to do: either go to university because a degree opens the job doors (if you're going to be a programmer, it helps to have comp sci) or go to university because you're basically obsessed with a subject. If you're going to university for the sake of it, you're wasting your time and money.

Wanna know how I know that you don't know what a pharmacist or optometrist does?

Hint: There's a difference between a pharm tech and a real pharmacist.

FizixJunkee: Hint: There's a difference between a pharm tech and a real pharmacist.

I know. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that where people might think that to run a pharmacy requires a degree, it actually only requires a 2 year cert course.

I've seen job ads for call centre managers requiring a degree which isn't about application of skills, it's just a way of slicing candidates. When the UK had far less degree candidates, employers chose 3 good A levels (back when getting 3 As at A-level was exceptionally rare and before the government degraded the level of them).

In the 45 years since I started working in construction, I've had the opportunity to work with crews where everyone had at least a Master's degree. The difference between working with those crews and working with the guys who had only HS/GEDs was night and day. In the former, everyone had made the choice to work with his hands; for the latter, it was the only work they could find.

More importantly, the MS+ crews had NO day-long debates about Chevy vs. Ford. Nothing makes a work-day drag on more than listening to that everyday for weeks on end.

Gough: In the 45 years since I started working in construction, I've had the opportunity to work with crews where everyone had at least a Master's degree. The difference between working with those crews and working with the guys who had only HS/GEDs was night and day. In the former, everyone had made the choice to work with his hands; for the latter, it was the only work they could find.

More importantly, the MS+ crews had NO day-long debates about Chevy vs. Ford. Nothing makes a work-day drag on more than listening to that everyday for weeks on end.

You know how I know you really do work in the construction business? Well said.

PS. Chevy blows Ford away any day.

Hyjamon: A lot of few schools won't official state there is a "wait list". I taught at a school that had a "2-year" nursing degree, yet know one has ever finished it in two years. You apply to the school for nursing, they accept you. Then you can't sign up for nursing classes because they are all full by the time you get to enroll for classes (new students enroll after students who are already enrolled from last year). So you are encouraged to take core classes, some that won't count toward the nursing degree, but you need 12 hours to get financial aid, hope scholarships, etc.

That's interesting (and terrible), though it doesn't speak to the other poster's argument that someone in government is intentionally throttling the supply of degrees to boost the cost.

Not that I'm saying you were trying to address that other person's argument - but since that was the origin of the discussion I figured I'd point it out.

I'd imagine the current crunch in nursing is at least partially due to some of these new state-level mandates that are forcing practicing nurses to return to college to get a useless piece of paper. To me, the sources for skyrocketing education costs are the inflated demand (rather than the throttled supply) brought on by a society that has declared that a bachelor's degree is required for even entry-level work, and the steep drop-off in state-level support for their own universities.

farkeruk: FizixJunkee: Hint: There's a difference between a pharm tech and a real pharmacist.

I know. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that where people might think that to run a pharmacy requires a degree, it actually only requires a 2 year cert course.

I've seen job ads for call centre managers requiring a degree which isn't about application of skills, it's just a way of slicing candidates. When the UK had far less degree candidates, employers chose 3 good A levels (back when getting 3 As at A-level was exceptionally rare and before the government degraded the level of them).

That two year program qualifies one to be a pharmacy technician, not a pharmacist. A real pharmacist can do a lot more than count pills and look up someone's insurance info.

For example, the pharmacists at the hospital I used to work for could actually make medicines, a skill that required a strong background in chemistry; pharm techs can't do that. The pharmacists were also responsible for all aspects of the pharmacy, including making sure it complied with state and federal rules. In addition, a pharmacist needs some sort of understanding of accounting and business since they often act as managers of the pharmacy. They have a lot more responsibility and skills than the pharm techs who dispense pills.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hyjamon: A lot of few schools won't official state there is a "wait list". I taught at a school that had a "2-year" nursing degree, yet know one has ever finished it in two years. You apply to the school for nursing, they accept you. Then you can't sign up for nursing classes because they are all full by the time you get to enroll for classes (new students enroll after students who are already enrolled from last year). So you are encouraged to take core classes, some that won't count toward the nursing degree, but you need 12 hours to get financial aid, hope scholarships, etc.

That's interesting (and terrible), though it doesn't speak to the other poster's argument that someone in government is intentionally throttling the supply of degrees to boost the cost.

Not that I'm saying you were trying to address that other person's argument - but since that was the origin of the discussion I figured I'd point it out.

I'd imagine the current crunch in nursing is at least partially due to some of these new state-level mandates that are forcing practicing nurses to return to college to get a useless piece of paper. To me, the sources for skyrocketing education costs are the inflated demand (rather than the throttled supply) brought on by a society that has declared that a bachelor's degree is required for even entry-level work, and the steep drop-off in state-level support for their own universities.

My sister is an R.N. with two bachelors degrees, one in microbiology and the other in nursing. She was on the waitlist for her nursing program for a little over a year. She was able to get in more quickly than many other people on the waitlist because she already had a bachelors degree in a related area (the microbiology degree...plus she had had physiology and many other overlapping courses) and a near perfect university GPA*. She still had to wait more than a year to start taking her nursing classes.

If I recall correctly, there's a limit to the number of students who can take any particular nursing course, so a program just can't let more students to register unless there's actually space in the required classes. Hence, the long waitlist.

*My sister originally wanted to be a medical doctor but changed her mind to nursing once she learned how much student loan debt she would incur by going to medical school.

ditch diggers with degrees?

present and accounted for.

/wish I had stayed with the industrial arts classes I liked so much in jr high. I wanted to be a mechanic, my parents did not want me to be a grease monkey. Now I'm an unemployed middle aged, former mid level, middle management paper pusher, with an utterly useless bachelor of science degree in accounting.

I love carpentry work, done sheet rock hanging, basic wiring. I know which end of the shovel to use. I climb ladders and scaffolding with confidence. What I don't know, I learn quickly if I work with somebody who is good at what they do. I can push a lawnmower, run weedwhackers, rake leaves, bag them, use chain saws. I can find work, I just can't find a job.

FizixJunkee: If I recall correctly, there's a limit to the number of students who can take any particular nursing course, so a program just can't let more students to register unless there's actually space in the required classes. Hence, the long waitlist.

Yeah ... I'm not denying the existence of wait-lists. I'm just skeptical that the government is intentionally restricting the number of accredited institutions in order to throttle the supply of degrees to boost the cost of education, or that the wait-lists that exist in nursing have anything to do with that.

The business school at UW-Madison has a wait-list every year because it's prestigious (I guess, I've heard things but I'm not in the field) but always has too many butts and not enough seats. That shiat's going to happen.

randomjsa: ronaprhys: Apparently liberals believe that if you get a degree in something, private industry should just hire you to do that job.

Completely regardless of whether or not there's any need for that degree where you're at.

As true as that is we're actually running up against people with marketable skills that seem to have nowhere to go.

Not really. It is true that we have kids with engineering degrees who can't get a job, but that's because you can graduate college with all Cs. Every year my program has some kids who do well enough to graduate, but who are useless enough that they have no hope of passing a job interview.

At the senior luncheon at the end of the semester, everyone has to stand up and talk about their future plans. The grand majority already have jobs lined up at local aerospace firms or acceptance letters for PhD programs; about 10-20% of the kids say they have no idea what they're going to do, and it's always the 10-20% who couldn't figure out half the programming assignments.

We must be careful not to conflate graduation with marketable skills.

Xcott: We must be careful not to conflate graduation with marketable skills.

We must also be careful not to conflate our personal experiences in a particular field at a particular location with the state of the nation at large.

A sporting goods store near here sells refrigerated angleworms by the dozen, prepackaged in Styrofoam containers. Every time I've counted them out, there was always exactly 12 worms in each container - which, given the less than uniform nature of the worms, indicates to me that someone is actually in an assembly line somewhere counting worms.
Worm counter - not a good job.

randomjsa: "We want somebody to do something that really only requires basic understanding of concepts and a bit of motivation... And we want them to have a four year degree and two years of experience."

This.

For fark's sake. I get that we're in a recession and it's the hirer's market, so they can ask for ridiculous stuff. But still. Basic inter-department communications position? Master's preferred. Must have bachelor's and 5 years of experience in this exact field. Part-time bookkeeper? Need an accounting degree and 3 years of experience at a major company.

What the hell? These are jobs I was probably qualified for before I even started college.

Xcott: At the senior luncheon at the end of the semester, everyone has to stand up and talk about their future plans

Never trust a person who uses the word "luncheon" instead of "lunch".

Also:

Never trust a person who buttons the top button of a polo shirt.
If you're a man, never have sex with someone who weighs more than you.
If you're a woman, never have sex with someone prettier than you.

Liberal arts degrees would go a long way to preventing mishaps like the T3ea Party from gaining political traction. Also, liberal arts degrees were always meant for ditch diggers and other trades, so they could be effective politically minded democratic citizens. The University of Chicago's liberal arts programs are a good example of this curriculum design.

farkeruk: Not exactly. We now have far more programming jobs than we did 100 years ago. We need people with higher skills than being able to work on a farm.

The problem is that the growth of college education hasn't been in engineering, architecture or even graphic design. It's been in subjects like psychology and journalism, jobs that get you serving fries:-

Also, this...

I wish I had gotten a CS degree. It's far from my passion, but I could fund my passions with a real job and a real salary.

danno_to_infinity: ditch diggers with degrees?

present and accounted for.

/wish I had stayed with the industrial arts classes I liked so much in jr high. I wanted to be a mechanic, my parents did not want me to be a grease monkey. Now I'm an unemployed middle aged, former mid level, middle management paper pusher, with an utterly useless bachelor of science degree in accounting.

I love carpentry work, done sheet rock hanging, basic wiring. I know which end of the shovel to use. I climb ladders and scaffolding with confidence. What I don't know, I learn quickly if I work with somebody who is good at what they do. I can push a lawnmower, run weedwhackers, rake leaves, bag them, use chain saws. I can find work, I just can't find a job.

What I objected to was the "tracking" that happened when I was in HS. Students had to choose either college-prep or vocational tracks and weren't allowed to take some classes from each program. I could have saved myself a fair bit of on-the-job training if I'd been able to take some of the woodworking or metalworking classes.

Bungles: Apparently conservatives believe the sole value of knowledge is that whether you can sell it for dollars. Aristotle smirks in your general direction.

Pretty sure that no one's ever said that, but it's not surprising that you would assume they have.

randomjsa: As true as that is we're actually running up against people with marketable skills that seem to have nowhere to go.

Marketable skills don't guarantee jobs. Jobs only come if there's a need for them. The job fairy doesn't run around creating make-work just to satisfy someone's needs. The best possible thing that can be done at this point is to make it easier for companies to create jobs. To do so, the costs of business must go down, new markets must be opened, or new products/services created.

Basily Gourt: HVAC for the win

Air conditioning and refrigeration tech. You won't get rich, but you'll always have a good job.

Same diesel generator mechanics

ronaprhys: The best possible thing that can be done at this point is to make it easier for companies to create jobs. To do so, the costs of business must go down, new markets must be opened, or new products/services created.

I'm pretty sure that favorable policy towards companies will cause them to expand employment into the cheapest possible avenues. If I were a subsistence farmer in Zaire, I might support your position, but as a citizen of the United States, with its relatively high standard of living and labor costs, I realize that public policy favorable to business will result in an increase in productivity coupled with a depression in wages.

If "job creation: is something we are actualy interested in accomplishing, as opposed to using it as a device of political rhetoric, education in this nation needs to be aggressively and intelligently coordinated with foreseeable market needs.

Substantial subsidies should be transferred away from foreign adventurism and Federal Reserve chicanery and to meaningful educational and vocational programs. If there's still a nursing shortage, why? Why can't we commit to paying for those who want accredited nursing programs?

farkeruk: The problem is that the growth of college education hasn't been in engineering, architecture or even graphic design. It's been in subjects like psychology and journalism, jobs that get you serving fries:-

[marginalrevolution.com image 471x466]

The problem is growth, period. As you can see on your graph, the number of CS/Engineering/Math grads hasn't changed much at all. That's not due to people making wrong decisions; it's due to the hard, cold fact that only some people can get through an engineering program. A lot of those extra Comms majors could not get through a major that pays, because majors that pay are majors that pay because they are hard.

If we send more kids to college, a graph like this is inevitable due to the simple demographics of scholastic aptitude.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Xcott: We must be careful not to conflate graduation with marketable skills.

We must also be careful not to conflate our personal experiences in a particular field at a particular location with the state of the nation at large.

Yes, you're right. Dumb kids failing to pass job interviews might just be a statistical fluke exclusive to my immediate personal experience.

Bennie Crabtree: Liberal arts degrees would go a long way to preventing mishaps like the T3ea Party from gaining political traction. Also, liberal arts degrees were always meant for ditch diggers and other trades, so they could be effective politically minded democratic citizens. The University of Chicago's liberal arts programs are a good example of this curriculum design.

$180,000 to become an "effective politically minded democratic citizen?"

Anyone who falls for this kind of scam is probably fated to wear a tri-corner hat with tea bags at least once in his or her life.

ronaprhys: Bungles: Apparently conservatives believe the sole value of knowledge is that whether you can sell it for dollars. Aristotle smirks in your general direction.

Pretty sure that no one's ever said that, but it's not surprising that you would assume they have.

randomjsa: As true as that is we're actually running up against people with marketable skills that seem to have nowhere to go.

Marketable skills don't guarantee jobs. Jobs only come if there's a need for them. The job fairy doesn't run around creating make-work just to satisfy someone's needs. The best possible thing that can be done at this point is to make it easier for companies to create jobs. To do so, the costs of business must go down, new markets must be opened, or new products/services created.



It was a direct response to someone who said exactly that.

Some of the most worthless people I ever had to work with were over educated collage grads.

Bungles: It was a direct response to someone who said exactly that.

No, that dude didn't say it was the sole value of knowledge. Employability is a primary purpose of higher education, but nobody thinks it's the sole purpose.

stuffy: Some of the most worthless people I ever had to work with were over educated collage grads.

So one may also conclude that the remaining worthless people that you've had to work with did NOT have college degrees.

/unless you really did mean collage instead of college
//I don't really know how demanding a collage major is
///is that in the same department as under water basket weaving?

poe_zlaw: None of which require a college degree-- The main guy of our company constantly outsmarts powerful attorneys, city engineers, city councils and has taught me almost everything I know. He never went to a day of college- In fact, he spent 2 years in prison in the '70's.

The idea that going to college makes someone smart can be one of the most frustrating and/or hilarious things about working in America.

NephilimNexus: The number of good jobs is finite. Creating more college graduates does not increase the number of good jobs available.

reality has a reality bias

farkeruk: Not exactly. We now have far more programming jobs than we did 100 years ago. We need people with higher skills than being able to work on a farm.

We do. One of the things I do at my programming job has replaced a contract programmer in Pakistan. I make 32k a year as a computer programmer with no health insurance. As long as contract programmers in Pakistan still exist, that's all I'm going to make.

paygun: farkeruk: Not exactly. We now have far more programming jobs than we did 100 years ago. We need people with higher skills than being able to work on a farm.

We do. One of the things I do at my programming job has replaced a contract programmer in Pakistan. I make 32k a year as a computer programmer with no health insurance. As long as contract programmers in Pakistan still exist, that's all I'm going to make.

That seems extremely low for a programmer, at least for where I've lived it is (CA and WA). The lowest I've seen a programmer make is $55k, averagely, they seem to make $60-80k range, and I have seen some that make up to $200k although that is rare and mostly senior guys. I'm sure there are exceptions to this of course, but perhaps you should consider moving to another region. Of course it could also depend on what your skill set is and what industry you're working in.

Bungles: It was a direct response to someone who said exactly that.

No wonder you think what you do. You can't even comprehend what's written.

Fail.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: I'm pretty sure that favorable policy towards companies will cause them to expand employment into the cheapest possible avenues. If I were a subsistence farmer in Zaire, I might support your position, but as a citizen of the United States, with its relatively high standard of living and labor costs, I realize that public policy favorable to business will result in an increase in productivity coupled with a depression in wages.

If "job creation: is something we are actualy interested in accomplishing, as opposed to using it as a device of political rhetoric, education in this nation needs to be aggressively and intelligently coordinated with foreseeable market needs.

Substantial subsidies should be transferred away from foreign adventurism and Federal Reserve chicanery and to meaningful educational and vocational programs. If there's still a nursing shortage, why? Why can't we commit to paying for those who want accredited nursing programs?

Wouldn't the cheapest possible avenues be better than no avenues? There are many jobs out there that are rather difficult to outsource, but due to economic pressures companies aren't going to expand their staff. This is simple economics. If I can't create a new position and make not just enough money to pay for it but profit on top of that, why should I create it? This money can come from new sales, higher margins on current sales, or from reduced operational expenses. The source doesn't matter - however, what does matter is that I, as an employer, and making more profit than before. If that doesn't happen, no sense in hiring another person.

Goimir: Henry Ford had the right idea when it came to payscale: pay your employees enough to afford your product.

Sigh...

Henry Ford never paid enough to afford his product. He paid more to stop staff turnover.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/timworstall/100016570/lefty-myth s -of-our-time-why-henry-fords-pay-rise-for-workers-undermines-the-livin g-wage-campaign/

Gyrfalcon: MOST jobs don't require degrees, morons. We're only in this mess, both here and in the UK, because people decided EVERYONE should have "a degree" regardless of if they wanted or needed it after high school.

"But I want to be a bricklayer after high school, why do I need college?"
YOU JUST DO NOW GET GOING!!!

Guess what: Most jobs and even careers don't require more than a high school education. At least insofar as what you need to be able to do. This is just one of those unintended consequences I enjoy gloating over when I have nothing better to do.

Isn't education a worthy goal in itself? Do you really want to live in a society where the majority of people only have a high school education?

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Fark_Guy_Rob: WE CONTROL HOW MANY ACCREDITED SCHOOLS EXIST
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS HAVE COMPLETE MONOPOLY OVER THE NUMBER OF NEW X
ACCREDITED SCHOOLS ARTIFICIAL LIMIT THE SUPPLY OF SEATS IN THEIR PROGRAMS
REDUCED SUPPLY MEANS INCREASED PRICE

"Homeless man's poorly-xeroxed newsletter" formatting aside, is this a real concern? I mean, I understand that there's competition for seats in a particular school's program when it is popular, but who has found themselves in a situation where they can't find a single accredited school that has an open spot in a particular program?

The price of a college degree has certainly skyrocketed, but it's not because someone is throttling the supply.

I think that was a shot at the American Medical Association, which did not accredit a single new medical school in the United States between 1982 and 2002. There are many who believe that one of the many reasons behind the high cost of health care is because the AMA is, essentially, limiting the supply of doctors by refusing to accredit new medical programs. They've been loosening up a bit in the past decade, but there has still only been one program to receive full accreditation in the last 30 years.

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

danno_to_infinity: danno_to_infinity: ditch diggers with degrees?

present and accounted for.

/wish I had stayed with the industrial arts classes I liked so much in jr high. I wanted to be a mechanic, my parents did not want me to be a grease monkey. Now I'm an unemployed middle aged, former mid level, middle management paper pusher, with an utterly useless bachelor of science degree in accounting.

I love carpentry work, done sheet rock hanging, basic wiring. I know which end of the shovel to use. I climb ladders and scaffolding with confidence. What I don't know, I learn quickly if I work with somebody who is good at what they do. I can push a lawnmower, run weedwhackers, rake leaves, bag them, use chain saws. I can find work, I just can't find a job.

You have a degree in accounting and are having problems finding a job? I find that hard to believe, accountants are one of the things we're pretty short on in this country. What's the deal?

Goimir: ronaprhys:

What market do people have for their goods and services that can't be outsourced?

I live in a neighborhood that is chock-full of ditch-diggers. Not one owns anything new unless it came from Family Dollar or Rent-A-Center.

People need paid more.

If people are paid more, in general, then the costs of goods and services will rise. That's inflation. If the people want to be paid more, they need to provide a greater value to their employer. That makes them harder to replace - which means they get paid more. Why? Because your job pays you your replacement value. If I can replace you with a barely cognizant monkey then I'm going to pay you what I'd pay a barely cognizant monkey. Plain and simple.

CmndrFish: danno_to_infinity: danno_to_infinity: ditch diggers with degrees?

Now I'm an unemployed middle aged, former mid level, middle management paper pusher, with an utterly useless bachelor of science degree in accounting.

You have a degree in accounting and are having problems finding a job? I find that hard to believe, accountants are one of the things we're pretty short on in this country. What's the deal?

At the beginning of that sentence, is the crux of the matter = I'm middle aged. practically toxic in the hiring pool. I've been on numerous 3rd interviews, only to lose the job to a 22 year old college graduate, who was often the offspring of a higher up muckity muck. Employers automatically assume I will only work for not less than 50K a year, and hire some kid for half that. Is it illegal to discriminate by age or gender? It sure is, but good luck proving it. Real world, it exists, it is very real and it is only getting worse.

Accountants in short supply? I don't think so. My job was outsourced overseas. In 3 years, I was offered one job, at 7 dollars an hour. 280 dollars a week! It wasn't even close to making my payments on what I owed (hey, nobody's fault but mine) but come on, 14.5 K a year, no benefits? That's half of what I was making, which wasn't a king's ransom to begin with.

I would dig ditches in a second but it just doesn't pay enough. If you could make the same money digging ditches as selling insurance I would dig ditches.

danno_to_infinity: At the beginning of that sentence, is the crux of the matter = I'm middle aged. practically toxic in the hiring pool. I've been on numerous 3rd interviews, only to lose the job to a 22 year old college graduate, who was often the offspring of a higher up muckity muck. Employers automatically assume I will only work for not less than 50K a year, and hire some kid for half that. Is it illegal to discriminate by age or gender? It sure is, but good luck proving it. Real world, it exists, it is very real and it is only getting worse.

I seriously have bouts of anxiety about this becoming me. I'm 28 in a few days and have yet to be able to land a professional-paying, career-building job. I worry that by the time we start to come out of this recession, no one will want to hire me because who hires an entry level employee who is Xty years old?

Trying to explore other paths and get new certifications and stuff, but this stuff worries me.

damn yanks: I would dig ditches in a second but it just doesn't pay enough. If you could make the same money digging ditches as selling insurance I would dig ditches.

Shh, working for an insurer is like blood in the water 'round here. Although it can provide a laugh at the lack of knowledge on the subject.

/And the occasional opportunity to clear up confusion

Submitted First With a Better Headline: I wish I had gotten a CS degree. It's far from my passion, but I could fund my passions with a real job and a real salary.

Am I the only one who remembers the day when saying this got you laughed at?