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6273 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Jun 2012 at 2:04 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:    more»

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Or you could solve it in one minute by entering the numbers into a sudoku solver.

I think the answer is 5

bdub77: Or you could solve it in one minute by entering the numbers into a sudoku solver.

minute?? LOL less than half a minute
but my solver doesnt even have a CLUE which heuristic to start with
the only heuristic which has anything is conjugate pairs ... lot of farking good that does me

I love me some hard puzzles, but this one is pretty much impossible ...

any know a heuristic which can give me a clue??

At least it's not over 9000.

Sorry, I'm not into pokemon.

ArkAngel: I think the answer is 5

42

F*ck sudoku, kakuro is where it's at

812753649
943682175
675491283
154237896
369845721
287169534
521974368
438526917
796318452

how can you NOT solve sudoku?

ArkAngel: I think the answer is 5

Nope. It's 6.

Checkmate in 11 moves. Suck on that sudoku.

The only way to win is not to play

Any 3 x 3 SuDoKu can only be so difficult. Solving in your head without writing any notes/permutations is the real challenge.

This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

For the enthusiasts, all options per square.

/Create hard sudoku
//Remove two numbers so people have to make multiple trial and error guesses
///???
//Even more ???
/rage quit

SpikeStrip: how can you NOT solve sudoku?

You know how I know that you didn't even try to solve this puzzle?

Virtuoso80: Any 3 x 3 SuDoKu can only be so difficult. Solving in your head without writing any notes/permutations is the real challenge.

Do you know how I know that you didn't even try THIS puzzle?

DerAppie: This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

I'd love to see a tree diagram of all the 50/50 choices you have to make to solve the puzzle.

Virtuoso80: DerAppie: This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

I'd love to see a tree diagram of all the 50/50 choices you have to make to solve the puzzle.

That's the only 50/50 choice you get. the next best bet has a 1 in 3 chance of being right. Depending on what you picked you then get another 50/50 choice, but you'd have to pick the wrong numbers (I checked the answer, sue me).

Kevin72: You know how I know that you didn't even try to solve this puzzle?

Solving sudoku is nothing more than rote repetition. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just plain old trial/error combined with simple pattern recognition. DerAppie: This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

It's definitely a 9.

Kevin72: Virtuoso80: Any 3 x 3 SuDoKu can only be so difficult. Solving in your head without writing any notes/permutations is the real challenge.

Do you know how I know that you didn't even try THIS puzzle?

Um, I just found out about it 10min ago, so that might be a hint.

I wasn't claiming anyone should/could do this one in their head. I was talking about your typical newspaper ones for that. But the method for solving all SuDoKu is the same, and quite simple, and if you can use pen and paper all you're really talking about is enough time and enough paper; there's no real challenge to it besides patience and having enough free time. Or, you could just program the process into a computer. Either way, the 'problem' is solved, so for me the joy of SuDoKu comes from seeing how difficult a one I can solve without writing any notes down.

It is an interesting point

The basic truth of all puzzle solving tests is that it doesn't tell you anything about the solver's intellectual firepower.

Extreme example is chess grandmasters. Their skill is the result of the 10,000+ hours experience of pattern recognition, rather than superior IQ. Theri skill does not translate to any other field of expertise.

The same thing applies to cryptic crosswords, sudoku etc - ability to solve them has more to do with learning the relevant strategies and persistently and creatively applying them, than any intrinsic mental powers.

That said, they are still enjoyable and challenging - you get to deploy a variety of strategies to find the answers, and you get a little buzz reward when you successfully crack them.

And maybe the meaning of life is to rack up small victories where you can get them

figuring out how to put numbers into a certain order in boxes...

or what I call, "paying the bills"

/that's alright, I spend enough time on that. have fun.

Solved it in about 10 minutes. Next.

rogue49: figuring out how to put numbers into a certain order in boxes...

or what I call, "paying the bills"

/that's alright, I spend enough time on that. have fun.

Actuary? Accountant? Packing Specialist?

mjjt: It is an interesting point

The basic truth of all puzzle solving tests is that it doesn't tell you anything about the solver's intellectual firepower.

Extreme example is chess grandmasters. Their skill is the result of the 10,000+ hours experience of pattern recognition, rather than superior IQ. Theri skill does not translate to any other field of expertise.

There are numerous important differences between Sudoku and Chess.

Sudoku is a solved game. Any Sudoku "puzzle" can be solved in less than a second by a single cheap computer. All the necessary techniques are known and very well understood. All the solutions are nothing more than an iterative loop. Anybody who knows how to read and understand numbers can solve any sudoku puzzle with enough time and patience, even if they have to resort to nothing more than simple guessing combined with trial and error.

Chess is not even remotely solved. A computer without a gigantic database of studied, sorted and categorized grand master games can't even remotely play on the level of a child chess prodigy. Even then, the child prodigy could win more often than not. The amount of computational resources, techniques, and knowledge needed for chess blows Sudoku out of the water. I would say, given enough time, anyone can at least get to expert level in chess. That really doesn't require that much studying. Once you start approaching master level, you see a real differentiation between IQ levels of the players.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: mjjt: It is an interesting point

The basic truth of all puzzle solving tests is that it doesn't tell you anything about the solver's intellectual firepower.

Extreme example is chess grandmasters. Their skill is the result of the 10,000+ hours experience of pattern recognition, rather than superior IQ. Theri skill does not translate to any other field of expertise.

There are numerous important differences between Sudoku and Chess.

Sudoku is a solved game. Any Sudoku "puzzle" can be solved in less than a second by a single cheap computer. All the necessary techniques are known and very well understood. All the solutions are nothing more than an iterative loop. Anybody who knows how to read and understand numbers can solve any sudoku puzzle with enough time and patience, even if they have to resort to nothing more than simple guessing combined with trial and error.

Chess is not even remotely solved. A computer without a gigantic database of studied, sorted and categorized grand master games can't even remotely play on the level of a child chess prodigy. Even then, the child prodigy could win more often than not. The amount of computational resources, techniques, and knowledge needed for chess blows Sudoku out of the water. I would say, given enough time, anyone can at least get to expert level in chess. That really doesn't require that much studying. Once you start approaching master level, you see a real differentiation between IQ levels of the players.

Sure, I agree, you're right. There is a huge difference between the skill and experience level of a 'master' at chess and sudoku.

The point I was trying to make was that expertise in any of these puzzle-solving fields does not translate to expertise/authority in any other facet of life.

People do math for fun?

Yes. I solved them all.

Saiga410: Solved it in about 10 minutes. Next.

Solved it before the page even loaded. Next.

thatguyoverthere70: People do math for fun?

Counting 1-9 is math?

INeedAName: thatguyoverthere70: People do math for fun?

Counting 1-9 is math?

I'm going to say yes. Also math has no generally accepted definition, so counting potato is math if you want it to be.

I'm marginally familiar with sudoku. But what makes one puzzle harder than another?

It's not really a puzzle when you stretch out theoretical number placements beyond what the human mind can hold and still have fun. That's about 3 or 4 variables, over 2 or 3 lines.

It becomes work.

The genius of Sudoku puzzle creation is creating the branchable linear number placement that has peaks and troughs, and moments of unlocking a whole jumble of numbers to reward the player.

This one does none of that.

Honest Bender: I'm marginally familiar with sudoku. But what makes one puzzle harder than another?

What techniques are required to solve them. Things like X-wings, Forcing Chains, Swordfish.

thatguyoverthere70: People do math for fun?

No math is involved, you could replace the numbers with letters or nine different symbols and the puzzle is unchanged.

Bungles: Honest Bender: I'm marginally familiar with sudoku. But what makes one puzzle harder than another?

What techniques are required to solve them. Things like X-wings, Forcing Chains, Swordfish.

Gads. Funny that all of these techniques I've discovered by solving puzzles over the last 8 years have names. I'm glad I never looked for strategies online, as it would not have been as fun.

Thunderboy: Bungles: Honest Bender: I'm marginally familiar with sudoku. But what makes one puzzle harder than another?

What techniques are required to solve them. Things like X-wings, Forcing Chains, Swordfish.

Gads. Funny that all of these techniques I've discovered by solving puzzles over the last 8 years have names. I'm glad I never looked for strategies online, as it would not have been as fun.

Mostly they're all just common sense, that most people would work out through trial and error, if they did enough puzzles. The main difficulty is about how much "stuff" you have to keep active in your mind at one time.

Bungles: Mostly they're all just common sense, that most people would work out through trial and error, if they did enough puzzles. The main difficulty is about how much "stuff" you have to keep active in your mind at one time.

I love the mental juggling act - it's about the only exercise the head-bone gets anymore.

"My" techniques don't have cool names, though.

Honest Bender: I'm marginally familiar with sudoku. But what makes one puzzle harder than another?

Imagine a puzzle where 8 out of each 9 squares are filled in. That would be easy to solve.

Imagine a puzzle where 1 out of each 9 squares are filled in. That would (probably?) be impossible to solve.

Somewhere in between those two extremes, the fun lies.

DerAppie: This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

[www.piccer.nl image 634x709]

For the enthusiasts, all options per square.

/Create hard sudoku
//Remove two numbers so people have to make multiple trial and error guesses
///???
//Even more ???
/rage quit

Note that your starting grid has some errors: D1 has 7 as an option, which it can't be as there is already a 7 in the row. E9 has eliminated 1 as an option, which it could be, while you still have 4 as an option despite that there is a 4 on the same row. B9 also should have 4 as an option still at this point. Conversely E1 shouldn't have 4 as an option. A4 and A5 can't be 8 because of the 8 in A1. C1 can't be a 9 due to the 9 in the same row, and also G5 can't be a 9 due to the 9 in the same column.

Your accidental elimination of 1 on E9 is the one that would really hurt later on, the rest of the mistakes don't really matter, although the elimination of 4 at B9 effectively is a guess .It is generally only false eliminations that do matter of course, as you usually notice the eliminations you missed sooner or later, the only issue is that you can miss further eliminations based on it for a while and slow down the solution.

xria: DerAppie: This isn't even solvable without trial and error and therefore I do not consider it a puzzle. but if I had to make a first guess, I'd go with lower right square, middle line, left option a 3 because I'd have 50% chance of being right (otherwise it's a 9).

[www.piccer.nl image 634x709]

For the enthusiasts, all options per square.

/Create hard sudoku
//Remove two numbers so people have to make multiple trial and error guesses
///???
//Even more ???
/rage quit

Note that your starting grid has some errors: D1 has 7 as an option, which it can't be as there is already a 7 in the row. E9 has eliminated 1 as an option, which it could be, while you still have 4 as an option despite that there is a 4 on the same row. B9 also should have 4 as an option still at this point. Conversely E1 shouldn't have 4 as an option. A4 and A5 can't be 8 because of the 8 in A1. C1 can't be a 9 due to the 9 in the same row, and also G5 can't be a 9 due to the 9 in the same column.

Your accidental elimination of 1 on E9 is the one that would really hurt later on, the rest of the mistakes don't really matter, although the elimination of 4 at B9 effectively is a guess .It is generally only false eliminations that do matter of course, as you usually notice the eliminations you missed sooner or later, the only issue is that you can miss further eliminations based on it for a while and slow down the solution.

I noticed some errors after I hit post. I'm not going to solve it so it doesn't really matter as the rest if my points still stand. It's not a puzzle but an exersice in patience because of all the trial and error.

DerAppie: I noticed some errors after I hit post. I'm not going to solve it so it doesn't really matter as the rest if my points still stand. It's not a puzzle but an exersice in patience because of all the trial and error.

Well, I haven't tried it as Inkala's puzzles are notoriously time consuming to do, but all the previous ones have had solutions, so it is unlikely he has made a mistake and made something insoluble without trial and error, it just requires at least one move that doesn't fit any of the common strategies (say for example, the 32 programmed into the online solver at sudokuwiki).

Relatively Obscure: Saiga410: Solved it in about 10 minutes. Next.

Solved it before the page even loaded. Next.

Solved it before I even knew it existed. Next.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Sudoku is a solved game. Any Sudoku "puzzle" can be solved in less than a second by a single cheap computer.

This. I wrote a solver about seven or eight years ago. It's not even a particularly smart solver - it's mostly just depth-first traversal starting from the square with the fewest available choices. I fed this puzzle into my four-year-old laptop, and got the answer in 0.2 seconds.

Smeggy Smurf

ArkAngel: I think the answer is 5

42

"A suffusion of yellow"

db2: Renowned transvestite sexologist: Sudoku is a solved game. Any Sudoku "puzzle" can be solved in less than a second by a single cheap computer.

This. I wrote a solver about seven or eight years ago. It's not even a particularly smart solver - it's mostly just depth-first traversal starting from the square with the fewest available choices. I fed this puzzle into my four-year-old laptop, and got the answer in 0.2 seconds.

Guessing the whole "journey, not the destination" thing passed you by? "This holiday is going to end in the airport, so I'm just going to sit in the airport! Ha! I've beaten you people who took holidays!"

Bah, that's an 11? It's barely a 4 to me!

Sudoku: The Jigsaw Puzzles of Gaming

Bungles: db2: Renowned transvestite sexologist: Sudoku is a solved game. Any Sudoku "puzzle" can be solved in less than a second by a single cheap computer.

This. I wrote a solver about seven or eight years ago. It's not even a particularly smart solver - it's mostly just depth-first traversal starting from the square with the fewest available choices. I fed this puzzle into my four-year-old laptop, and got the answer in 0.2 seconds.

Guessing the whole "journey, not the destination" thing passed you by? "This holiday is going to end in the airport, so I'm just going to sit in the airport! Ha! I've beaten you people who took holidays!"

I did a GIS for "Fiji", so I didn't even have to leave my desk. Suckers!

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