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(Guardian)   Americans unable to explain Obamacare, nor why they hate it   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 287
    More: Interesting, obamacare  
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3130 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jun 2012 at 9:13 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-29 09:37:21 AM

Wayne 985: A good chunk of Americans are illiterate when it comes to to civics. Film at 11.


I had an argument with a friend yesterday who was convinced the House GOP was going to "repeal" the ACA and that would be that...

I was kind of blinking at him... Do they not teach basic Civics anymore? Do these people even know how a Bill is passed into law and the processes in place for things like "repeal"?
 
2012-06-29 09:37:52 AM

I_C_Weener: Also, Obama was naive saying it wasn't a tax. He will find himself defending that for the remainder of this year.


Then so will Romney.
 
2012-06-29 09:38:29 AM
this is fascinating to watch.
 
2012-06-29 09:40:46 AM

hackhix: It's a tax. It was always a tax. George Stephanopolis was absolutely correct when he told President Obama it was a tax. President Obama knows the Constitution well enough to know it could only be constitutional if it was a tax. The Democrats passed a tax on the middle class during a recession. That was their right because they controlled the House, Senate and Executive. Now the fact that it was and is a tax has truthfully been exposed. I agree with Chief Justice Roberts that increasing taxes is Constitutional. And lying about increasing taxes, just like lying about receiving a combat medal is not criminal.


The reason we are still in a recession is because the super rich found a legal means to borrow against the actual value created by the middle class, and then started doing everything in their power to limit our ability to actually create that value as they no longer need us to, having bypassed that necessity to effecting their wealth gains.
 
2012-06-29 09:41:25 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: I_C_Weener: Also, Obama was naive saying it wasn't a tax. He will find himself defending that for the remainder of this year.

Then so will Romney.


Yes, indeed. Let's put the competing tax plans up against each other in the public arena. Let's see how tax increases to pay for health care compare to tax increases to pay for top bracket rate cuts and increased defense spending.
 
2012-06-29 09:41:56 AM

I_C_Weener: kronicfeld: RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.

Just like providing tax cuts for mortgage interest forces people to buy homes. And dependency exemptions force people to have children.

In fairness you don't pay a higher tax for refusing to get a house. That is the default. If you buy one, you may get tax breaks.

Here, your refusal to buy insurance requires you to pay more taxes. This the stick, not the carrot side of taxes being used for behavior modification.

But my objections are simple: mandate, failure of a public options, taxes tha will raise the cost of healthcare (see medical device tax increase), and the extra BS in the bill. But I like certain aspects of it

And like all government matters, I remain skeptical that it will work as advertised.

Also, Obama was naive saying it wasn't a tax. He will find himself defending that for the remainder of this year.


He's naive for not calling it a trigger word that a bunch of mouth-breathers go apeshiat over regardless of anything further than that?

Yea..okay.
 
2012-06-29 09:43:37 AM

mediaho: Explain Like I'm Five.


That was refreshing non-derp explanation of what the ACA does.
 
2012-06-29 09:44:26 AM

FlashHarry: • obama did a piss-poor job of explaining the benefits of obamacare
• the "mainstream media" didn't do its job at all, allowing disinformation from the right to permeate the debate
• the republicans were extremely aggressive and disciplined in their disinformation campaign
• most americans are too lazy to find shiat out on their own


Agree with all of the above.

Somehow the White House needs to really doing a major push to promote the truth about this, I have plenty of friends/family that are normally very smart people that are so scared of change and because the GOP has controlled the narrative on this, they really believe a lot of the bullshiat.

Frankly, the first mistake was referring to it as anything but Medicare 2.0, that would of helped push thru the Public Option
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-06-29 09:44:50 AM

Raharu: s2s2s2: WE GET IT, "WE'RE DUMB"!

More like simply uninformed and mislead by talking heads.


That's precisely it. If you ask about the individual provisions of Obamacare people support them.
 
2012-06-29 09:45:22 AM
i512.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-29 09:45:37 AM
So Mitt Willard Romney raised taxes the only time he was an elected government chief executive.

So Mitt Willard Romney has been lying when he said he didn't raise taxes as Governo
r.

Add that to the "savior of the US auto industry's" stack of lies.
 
2012-06-29 09:45:49 AM

RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.


Your states have been doing this for some time now. Unless you live in Rhode Island, and then that started about a decade ago or so.
 
2012-06-29 09:46:34 AM
Silly Nancy. She thought that after PPACA was passed that the talking heads and right-wing blowhards would stop spreading misinformation and allow the citizenry to actually find out what was in the bill.
 
2012-06-29 09:47:19 AM
The entire right wing noise machine is dedicated to putting out misinformation about "Obamacare" (among other things), and the media won't call them on it, so it's no wonder that people are confused.
 
2012-06-29 09:47:27 AM

FlashHarry: • obama did a piss-poor job of explaining the benefits of obamacare
• the "mainstream media" didn't do its job at all, allowing disinformation from the right to permeate the debate
• the republicans were extremely aggressive and disciplined in their disinformation campaign
• most americans are too lazy to find shiat out on their own


It's like this with any issue.

I still can't figure out why The Guardian would be shocked it would be the same thing this time around.
 
2012-06-29 09:48:53 AM
Funny, I don't recall this much of an uproar when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin.
 
2012-06-29 09:50:06 AM

scarmig: Seriously, why do we need health insurance for cuts and scrapes, common illnesses and the occasional broken bone? These should be easy and cheap to fix. Keep the insurance for the big stuff.


Step 1: Go outside, fall out of a tree and break your leg.
Step 2: Hitch a ride to the ER and have them set and plaster it. Then take your painkiller prescription down to the pharmacy and get some meds.
Step 3: Get back to us about how the bill for all that wouldn't fall under the heading of 'big stuff'.
 
2012-06-29 09:50:37 AM

Mrtraveler01: It's like this with any issue.


this is very true.

why are democrats so bad at explaining things? is it because they're often nuanced and complicated and soundbites like "death panels" and "government takeover of healthcare" are easier to digest?

where is their frank luntz?

chris, no wonder republicans hate public education so much.
 
2012-06-29 09:51:21 AM

FlashHarry: • obama did a piss-poor job of explaining the benefits of obamacare
• the "mainstream media" didn't do its job at all, allowing disinformation from the right to permeate the debate
• the republicans were extremely aggressive and disciplined in their disinformation campaign
• most americans are too lazy to find shiat out on their own


Most of us out in the working world with jobs know that if you give the Health Care Industry a chance to screw you over they will, and this is a golden opportunity. The whole CF the Republicans caused for a year fighting this and the piss-poor way Obama caved in on major aspects of it means the real winners will be health insurers, and the real losers will be working people. And left, right or center that is scary and pisses people off.

Sorry, I'm a lifelong D voter and I won't be switching to R, but the piss-poor way this got implemented just makes it open season on the insured. Watch. There will be more pillow-biting coming as a result of this, and everyone will blame Obama for it because, you know, he's that damn idiot that started it (I don't believe this myself, but damnit if you're in charge, try leading for once. He did nothing to frame the narrative, as you pointed out, and let the dip-wit contingent run wild with it.)
 
2012-06-29 09:51:41 AM

KellyX: Somehow the White House needs to really doing a major push to promote the truth about this


They're pretty much powerless when everyone is dependent on TV networks to inform them. Anything they do to promote the truth will just be ignored or distorted. And state-run media would have people screaming communism like nothing else.

What this entire thing really put the spotlight on is how corporations control the media, and through that, what the average citizen thinks. It's nothing new of course, but i think it's a wake up call for some who didn't realize the extent before.
 
2012-06-29 09:52:14 AM

Karac: Step 1: Go outside, fall out of a tree and break your leg.
Step 2: Hitch a ride to the ER and have them set and plaster it. Then take your painkiller prescription down to the pharmacy and get some meds.
Step 3: Get back to us about how the bill for all that wouldn't fall under the heading of 'big stuff'.


Don't forget the x-rays and $5,000 MRI.
 
2012-06-29 09:52:22 AM

Raharu: s2s2s2: WE GET IT, "WE'RE DUMB"!

More like simply uninformed and mislead by talking heads.


Hey now. I'll have you know that I am very WELL-INFROMED.
 
2012-06-29 09:53:35 AM

FlashHarry: Mrtraveler01: It's like this with any issue.

this is very true.

why are democrats so bad at explaining things? is it because they're often nuanced and complicated and soundbites like "death panels" and "government takeover of healthcare" are easier to digest?

where is their frank luntz?

chris, no wonder republicans hate public education so much.


Drew Westen and George Lakoff have day jobs outside of the party infrastructure unlike Frank Luntz.
 
2012-06-29 09:54:12 AM

FlashHarry: Mrtraveler01: It's like this with any issue.

this is very true.

why are democrats so bad at explaining things? is it because they're often nuanced and complicated and soundbites like "death panels" and "government takeover of healthcare" are easier to digest?

where is their frank luntz?

chris, no wonder republicans hate public education so much.


I've pondered this one. The conclusion I keep coming back to is Democrats are not leaders, not in the sense we want today. That does NOT mean Republicans are. But every time I see yet another cliche-riddled (D)-bag get on TV like Wasserman-Schultz or Pelosi or Reed, I just cringe. There is no freaking way those people can connect with most of America. Never happening.

The Howard Deans of the party have been marginalized, and it shows. There is a party full of Kerry prototypes and would-be intellectual, "knows whats best for society, do as I say not as I do" effetes.

Sitting ducks for FOX news.
 
2012-06-29 09:54:32 AM

RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.


Every post you make about this topic translates as, "Waa, I don't wanna!" So cry more. Your side offered nothing. You therefore didn't get to have a say in how the country controls its healthcare problems. Offer something more than, "No, I don't wanna!" and maybe something bipartisan will come out of it.
 
2012-06-29 09:55:49 AM

J. Frank Parnell: KellyX: Somehow the White House needs to really doing a major push to promote the truth about this

They're pretty much powerless when everyone is dependent on TV networks to inform them. Anything they do to promote the truth will just be ignored or distorted. And state-run media would have people screaming communism like nothing else.

What this entire thing really put the spotlight on is how corporations control the media, and through that, what the average citizen thinks. It's nothing new of course, but i think it's a wake up call for some who didn't realize the extent before.


Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton both fought like hell for their side in these battles.

If you want to be president you better bring a gun to a knife fight.

Obama acts like its beneath him to even battle.

People notice.
 
2012-06-29 09:58:47 AM
And there are the critical reading skills I expect of this bunch.
 
2012-06-29 09:59:13 AM

Weaver95: this is fascinating to watch.


Yeah, especially from outside the US.
 
2012-06-29 09:59:20 AM

jodaveki: Funny, I don't recall this much of an uproar when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin.


That's because white folks though he invented a way to make Gin out of cotton, and the brothers were glad to be moved from laborer to mechanic.
 
2012-06-29 09:59:43 AM

pukingtrader: And here I thought it was just a tax on deadbeats who expect the rest of us to pay for their medical care if they get hurt or sick.


Yeah it is. But the problem is that tax isn't high enough.
 
2012-06-29 10:00:46 AM

hackhix: It's a tax. It was always a tax. George Stephanopolis was absolutely correct when he told President Obama it was a tax. President Obama knows the Constitution well enough to know it could only be constitutional if it was a tax. The Democrats passed a tax on the middle class during a recession. That was their right because they controlled the House, Senate and Executive. Now the fact that it was and is a tax has truthfully been exposed. I agree with Chief Justice Roberts that increasing taxes is Constitutional. And lying about increasing taxes, just like lying about receiving a combat medal is not criminal.


I know it's too late to clear up this talking point but I'll do it anyway. PointA. We're no longer in a recession and in 2 years things may in fact be far better then they are now. PointB: It's not a "tax on the middle class" it's a tax on ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T BUY HEALTH INSURANCE Most of the middle class will actually be exempt because increases to who can apply Medicare and the 20 some-odd exemptions that are available.

If you make less then 133% of poverty ($14,000 for individuals and $30,000 for a family) your exempt. If you make 133%-400% over poverty (less then $88,000) you get subsidies for insurance or your tax burden is reduced.
 
2012-06-29 10:00:53 AM

RobertBruce: Statists piss their pants at anarchy, afraid that mob armies with near unlimited power will take their stuff. And fully support the biggest baddest armed mob just because it takes this for them. farking hypocrites then complain too much is being spent on arming their mob. And it is.


Still throwing your little temper tantrum from yesterday, I see...

The only people pissing their pants are people like you, my confused, juvenile friend.
 
2012-06-29 10:02:29 AM

RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.


Probably trolling.

But, I'll bite. It's immoral to compel someone into a "private market?" What the hell does that mean, and how is it immoral? You can make the same argument about anything the government does, because the government "forces" people to do things all the goddamn time. Isn't it way more "immoral" to force someone to pay taxes to fund a war against Iraq?

And this whole argument is f'ing stupid, because the GOP is ALL ABOUT "privatizing" governmental functions. George W. Bush wanted to change social security into a voucher system, which essentially would force people to buy investments. Isn't forcing someone to save for retirement way more immoral than forcing someone to pay for their inevitable health care needs?

The Obama derangement syndrome is reaching such a fevered pitch in this country, that it's convincing me that a huge chunk of society is mildly retarded. So many people are so f'ing uninformed, gullible, and willing to buy these idiotic arguments, simply because their "team" isn't in the white house. They just ignore the fact that overall, Obama has been extremely moderate and often times conservative in his approach. For f*ck's sake, the Heritage Foundation has recently criticized the individual mandate as socialist oppression, even though the Heritage Foundation came up with the farking idea in the first place!
 
2012-06-29 10:02:47 AM
If I may quote a fellow officer, who was addressing the question of women in the military, but I believe it also applies here: "It's just basically wrong!"

I admit I was surprised by Roberts joining the majority, as were 99.9999% of the Cons out there. Are wedgies constitutional?
 
2012-06-29 10:02:51 AM

Karac: scarmig: Seriously, why do we need health insurance for cuts and scrapes, common illnesses and the occasional broken bone? These should be easy and cheap to fix. Keep the insurance for the big stuff.

Step 1: Go outside, fall out of a tree and break your leg.
Step 2: Hitch a ride to the ER and have them set and plaster it. Then take your painkiller prescription down to the pharmacy and get some meds.
Step 3: Get back to us about how the bill for all that wouldn't fall under the heading of 'big stuff'.


Been there. Done that. Except mine was a wrist.

I'm not expert. I admit that. But I do think we have people in this country who are smart enough to find solutions that don't expand government power, or force people to do things against their will.
 
2012-06-29 10:03:27 AM
To be fair, it was sold by the Administration on different terms than it was upheld. It was confusing for people from the start.
 
2012-06-29 10:03:47 AM

Spad31: Money stolen. Simple.


All taxes are legal theft, right?
 
2012-06-29 10:04:24 AM

Weaver95: this is fascinating to watch.


Jane Goodall was "fascinated" by studying chimps.
 
2012-06-29 10:05:20 AM

verbaltoxin: RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.

Every post you make about this topic translates as, "Waa, I don't wanna!" So cry more. Your side offered nothing. You therefore didn't get to have a say in how the country controls its healthcare problems. Offer something more than, "No, I don't wanna!" and maybe something bipartisan will come out of it.


The Tea party is a bunch of children. It's like if children could vote, and a group of them organized a grassroots movement to promote legislation banning their parents from forcing them to eat their vegetables.
 
2012-06-29 10:05:33 AM

J. Frank Parnell: KellyX: Somehow the White House needs to really doing a major push to promote the truth about this

They're pretty much powerless when everyone is dependent on TV networks to inform them. Anything they do to promote the truth will just be ignored or distorted. And state-run media would have people screaming communism like nothing else.

What this entire thing really put the spotlight on is how corporations control the media, and through that, what the average citizen thinks. It's nothing new of course, but i think it's a wake up call for some who didn't realize the extent before.


Perhaps the White House should do a forced 15-30min speech/spot that the major channels would be required to run uninterrupted and highlight major key points and then offer a link to a website for full details. Refuse to run it, FCC should start looking into your Network.
 
2012-06-29 10:05:46 AM
Yeaaaaaaaaaah most Americans are idiots. They just hear the word "Obamacare" and go "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE! SOCIALISM!"

Then when you explain it in simple terms a 6-year-old would understand, and explain how it will actually help them, they are like "Oh. Nevermind".
 
2012-06-29 10:06:12 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: pukingtrader: And here I thought it was just a tax on deadbeats who expect the rest of us to pay for their medical care if they get hurt or sick.

Yeah it is. But the problem is that tax isn't high enough.


I believe in a few years when the affordable healthcare act starts showing positive results, Republicans will remember it was their idea, scramble to take credit for it, pretend to have never called it "Obamacare" and try to raise the tax/penalty as high as possible.
 
2012-06-29 10:07:11 AM

RandomExcess: It is immoral to use the force of law to compel people into the private market.


Then we'd also have to repeal the law that says hospitals must treat everyone. Doctors are compelled by the force of law into treating you. People are now compelled by the force of law into being able to pay for this treatment. But you go and try and repeal that first law, see how far you get.
 
2012-06-29 10:07:44 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: I_C_Weener: Also, Obama was naive saying it wasn't a tax. He will find himself defending that for the remainder of this year.

Then so will Romney.


Weaver95: this is fascinating to watch.


Indeed. It's rather odd that both candidates have been responsible for similar legislation. I still don't understand how Romney can legitimately speak out against something he implemented while in office and be taken seriously.
 
2012-06-29 10:07:48 AM

madgonad: pretty much every white, middle-class person in America


Ahh, screw off.
 
2012-06-29 10:08:24 AM

scarmig: But I do think we have people in this country who are smart enough to find solutions that don't expand government power, or force people to do things against their will.


I wish that was so, but the default answer to any problem, real or conceived for the last few decades has been "what can the Government do about it". And the Government has been all too willing to comply.
 
2012-06-29 10:08:27 AM

Generation_D: J. Frank Parnell: KellyX: Somehow the White House needs to really doing a major push to promote the truth about this

They're pretty much powerless when everyone is dependent on TV networks to inform them. Anything they do to promote the truth will just be ignored or distorted. And state-run media would have people screaming communism like nothing else.

What this entire thing really put the spotlight on is how corporations control the media, and through that, what the average citizen thinks. It's nothing new of course, but i think it's a wake up call for some who didn't realize the extent before.

Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton both fought like hell for their side in these battles.

If you want to be president you better bring a gun to a knife fight.

Obama acts like its beneath him to even battle.

People notice.


When the SC decision was announced yesterday, Obama gave a speech afterwards(played in full, live, on NPR). He took the opportunity to fully explain the benefits of the Affordable Care Act.
 
2012-06-29 10:08:57 AM

kronicfeld: scarmig: Maybe, all health-care expenses for everyone are tax-free.

The Wal-Mart cashier making a single-digit hourly wage will be relieved to hear that he does not have to pay taxes on the money he spends from his own pocket on his $500,000 liver transplant.


So, private medical charity + hardship cost reductions offered by the medical providers + government writing off $500,000 worth of income for that person, year over year. They may never pay an income tax again. And, you, being the great believer in helping those in need, would glad contribute to a medical charity that helps those in need, right?

There *are* solutions that don't require government expansion. I may not be smart enough to come up with them. But I'd like to think someone out there is.
 
2012-06-29 10:10:53 AM

make me some tea: Indeed. It's rather odd that both candidates have been responsible for similar legislation. I still don't understand how Romney can legitimately speak out against something he implemented while in office and be taken seriously.


The only way he could possibly get away with it is to say that people in MA wanted it but people in the country overall do not want it. He'd still have to admit that it was good legislation though. Of course he's not willing to do this, he just says it sucks overall.
 
2012-06-29 10:10:53 AM

ManRay: scarmig: But I do think we have people in this country who are smart enough to find solutions that don't expand government power, or force people to do things against their will.

I wish that was so, but the default answer to any problem, real or conceived for the last few decades has been "what can the Government do about it". And the Government has been all too willing to comply.


Indeed.
 
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