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(American Thinker)   We just saw the Court sanction unlimited taxation on behavior and give permission to lie about it at the same time   (americanthinker.com) divider line 459
    More: Sad, punishments, Charles Krauthammer, supreme courts, Ways and Means Committee, Turbotax  
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2142 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jun 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-29 11:24:37 AM  

pxsteel: keylock71: Pincy: Ya, I was thinking that same thing. Are we all going to have to file proof of insurance vouchers with our 1040s from now on?

That's pretty much what we do in Massachusetts. Your Insurance provider gives you a form detailing that you were covered for the year (or part of the year), which must be submitted with state tax filings in order to avoid the penalty (unless you fall into one of the categories exempted).

Pretty simple, actually. It's gets mailed to you and you keep one for your records and submit the other with your taxes.

There is a guy at you local flee market that sells the forms for $10 $12 for duplicates


You could lie about your W2 also. Try that. See what happens.
 
2012-06-29 11:24:43 AM  

qorkfiend: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?

...and?


How are they going to know that I don't have insurance. systems are built to be broken, the black market is going to be big on this one.
 
2012-06-29 11:24:43 AM  

IlGreven: Well, then, kiss government insurance good-bye, because no one will buy it.


Um, you do know plenty of doctors participate in Medicaid willingly (and can always bow out) even though it doesn't pay as well as private insurance?

hubiestubert: We have unemployment insurance for a reason. To keep utilities paid. To keep rents paid. To keep food being bought, and to keep folks from slipping off the radar entirely. Unemployment isn't just for the guy who loses his job, but to KEEP the businesses around him paid as well. Unemployment doesn't cover a lot, but it keeps the lights on and the rent paid until folks can find work. It's not just for the benefit if the guy who loses his job, but for all those around him as well.


Yet we'll always have some folks who don't understand the inter-connections in society, and will always want to do things their way, regardless of who it impacts, so long as it isn't personal for them. It really is a 'fark you, I got mine' attitude, and even as a libertarian, I realize the only way to build a functional society is to marginalize those people, to set up our own system in which those folks can do as little damage as possible and accept it as the cost of doing business, like irrecoverable overhead.

Lately it seems we've been electing them.

Infernalist: DICK CHENEY came out in favor of gay rights only after his daughter came out of the closet. Cman has put himself into the same category as Dick farking Cheney.


Hey! That's not really fair. There's good odds Cman has never shot a man in the face and laughed about it later.
 
2012-06-29 11:25:11 AM  

pxsteel: keylock71: Pincy: Ya, I was thinking that same thing. Are we all going to have to file proof of insurance vouchers with our 1040s from now on?

That's pretty much what we do in Massachusetts. Your Insurance provider gives you a form detailing that you were covered for the year (or part of the year), which must be submitted with state tax filings in order to avoid the penalty (unless you fall into one of the categories exempted).

Pretty simple, actually. It's gets mailed to you and you keep one for your records and submit the other with your taxes.

There is a guy at you local flee market that sells the forms for $10 $12 for duplicates


...and? Who would be buying such forms?
 
2012-06-29 11:25:12 AM  

pxsteel: There is a guy at you local flee market that sells the forms for $10 $12 for duplicates


No, there isn't... But you should definitely cheat on your taxes. No way that'll come back and bite you in the ass.
 
2012-06-29 11:25:34 AM  

Infernalist: When I see someone come out and say "I used to be a GOPer, but then my sister came out as gay and boy I was mad at first, but then I started thinking about that and now I'm not a GOPer anymore.."

When I see someone say that, I see someone saying "I would happily still be homophobic and hateful to gays, but I love my sister." And that's hypocrisy.

There's no great moral standing in that. There's no moment where he decides to do the 'right thing' simply because it's the moral thing to do.

You ask one man, "Why do you support gay rights?" and he says "Because of my sister."

You ask another man "Why do you support gay right?" and he says "Because it's the right thing to do."

Who do you have more respect for?

And that's why I got angry. As for the insult, don't worry about it. When I get insulted, I consider it bonus points on my score.



Meh, saying "because of my sister" is just explaining how they came to see it as the right thing to do. At least, I'll give the benefit of the doubt in that regard, since the end result is the same, and I'm not picky enough to reject people supporting the right thing for questionable reasons.

No, seriously.. I'm doing work now. I swear.
 
2012-06-29 11:25:48 AM  

pxsteel: qorkfiend: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?

...and?

How are they going to know that I don't have insurance. systems are built to be broken, the black market is going to be big on this one.


So, because there are people who speed, traffic laws are dumb and should be overturned?

GOP LOGIC.
 
2012-06-29 11:26:49 AM  

stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?


Yes I do. The Republicans kept telling us it was a mandate that "FORCED" us to buy insurance. So I am pissed that the Republicans lied to us.
 
2012-06-29 11:27:31 AM  

Corvus: stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?

Yes I do. The Republicans kept telling us it was a mandate that "FORCED" us to buy insurance. So I am pissed that the Republicans lied to us.


Don't forget the death panels.
 
2012-06-29 11:27:38 AM  

stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?


Obama lied, people died.

No wait, Obama lied, people got health insurance?

Suck it Con.
 
2012-06-29 11:27:46 AM  

pxsteel: qorkfiend: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?

...and?

How are they going to know that I don't have insurance. systems are built to be broken, the black market is going to be big on this one.


Look at the massive black market in birth certificates so people can claim false dependents on their taxes. You can't walk down the street without someone trying to sell you one.
 
2012-06-29 11:28:00 AM  

pxsteel: qorkfiend: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?

...and?

How are they going to know that I don't have insurance. systems are built to be broken, the black market is going to be big on this one.


Oh, I don't know, perhaps the same way they know if you "forget" to include a W-2, or include a fraudulent one?
 
2012-06-29 11:28:07 AM  

intelligent comment below: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?


Why do you hate personal responsibility?


The one thing I've learned from this ACA fight is that Republicans are in favor of letting people use the system without requiring them to pay into the system. How that became the official position of The Party of Personal Responsibility, I'll never understand.
 
2012-06-29 11:28:23 AM  

pxsteel: How are they going to know that I don't have insurance. systems are built to be broken, the black market is going to be big on this one.


Holy shiat you are dumb.

You will turn in a code that is the insurance number of the insurance policy you are buying. Massachusetts ROMNEYCARE already does this.

Just like a W2 it can be verified.
 
2012-06-29 11:28:36 AM  
We just saw the Court sanction unlimited taxation on behavior

Taxation on behavior already has tons of precedent.

and give permission to lie about it at the same time.

www.izismile.com

/American "Thinker" my ass
 
2012-06-29 11:29:54 AM  

intelligent comment below: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?


Why do you hate personal responsibility?


Sorry, do you know that there are millions that legally don't have to file.
 
2012-06-29 11:29:59 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Look at the massive black market in birth certificates so people can claim false dependents on their taxes.


i47.tinypic.com

"Hello thar."
 
2012-06-29 11:30:11 AM  
images.sodahead.com
 
2012-06-29 11:30:43 AM  

Erix: Infernalist: When I see someone come out and say "I used to be a GOPer, but then my sister came out as gay and boy I was mad at first, but then I started thinking about that and now I'm not a GOPer anymore.."

When I see someone say that, I see someone saying "I would happily still be homophobic and hateful to gays, but I love my sister." And that's hypocrisy.

There's no great moral standing in that. There's no moment where he decides to do the 'right thing' simply because it's the moral thing to do.

You ask one man, "Why do you support gay rights?" and he says "Because of my sister."

You ask another man "Why do you support gay right?" and he says "Because it's the right thing to do."

Who do you have more respect for?

And that's why I got angry. As for the insult, don't worry about it. When I get insulted, I consider it bonus points on my score.


Meh, saying "because of my sister" is just explaining how they came to see it as the right thing to do. At least, I'll give the benefit of the doubt in that regard, since the end result is the same, and I'm not picky enough to reject people supporting the right thing for questionable reasons.

No, seriously.. I'm doing work now. I swear.


You think that they've come to see the world differently. I know different. People who are like that, who need a sisters to come out as gay before they'll stop hating the gays...

They still hate the gays. They just do it quietly. They'll stop using the slurs openly, unless they get really pissed off and then all bets are off. They'll curb their behavior in public because they love their sister and don't want to hurt her, but they're still the same bigoted d-bags as before.

There's been no moral evolution, no grasping of the fact that people who are different are still just people.

It's not sincere. But, eh.

You're a champ for being so accepting of them. I don't have that in me anymore. Living as a Dem in Texas will do that to you after a while.
 
2012-06-29 11:31:13 AM  

cchris_39: If we can teach people the dangers of 4 hour erections, we can teach them to treat their own sinus infections.


A.) You overestimate the attention span of the average American. 4 hours for an erection vs. a 10-15 day course of antibiotics that must be taken in its entirety to help minimize the possibility of developing resistant strains.
B.) Entrusting the average person to know with absolute certainty that the infection is bacterial and not viral.
C.) Entrusting the average person to know that it is in fact, a bacterial sinus infection and not something worse that starts off similarly, and thus knowing the right course of antibiotics to be taking (if antibiotics are, in fact, the solution)
D.) Knowing whether an antibiotic belongs to a specific class of which you or your family members are deathly allergic to.
 
2012-06-29 11:31:34 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: We just saw the Court sanction unlimited taxation on behavior

Taxation on behavior already has tons of precedent.

and give permission to lie about it at the same time.

[www.izismile.com image 600x450]

/American "Thinker" my ass


One of the oldest taxes in US history was a tax on whiskey during George Washington.

These guys are complete farking idiots.
 
2012-06-29 11:31:45 AM  

pxsteel: intelligent comment below: pxsteel: Philip Francis Queeg: pxsteel: How is the government going to enforce the tax? How will they know that I don't have insurance?

Hmm, maybe the IRS will have to develop some system for reviewing and investigating the accuracy of submitted tax returns. They could call it an audit or something.

Do you know how many people don't file tax returns?


Why do you hate personal responsibility?

Sorry, do you know that there are millions that legally don't have to file.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that someone who doesn't meet the income threshold to file a federal tax return will either be exempt from the penalty or will be on Medicaid already.
 
2012-06-29 11:32:09 AM  

NateGrey: Republicans were right, America's economic system has been destroyed, the markets are responding:

Dow Jones
12,810.20 +207.94 (1.65%)

Healthcare +1.73%
Financial +1.90%

America's Job Creators have responded. LIIBBBBSSSSS!!11


Well duh.

Healthcare just got another 30 million paying customers and at least another $1.7 trillion (far starters) according to CBO.

An already big business just got alot bigger.

OTOH, watching libs rejoice about pouring their own money into the coffers of big business does provide some comfort.
 
2012-06-29 11:32:34 AM  
After wading through the opinions, I get the sense that Roberts switched his vote after the initial conference. But Krauthammer et al are right about a few things:

- The Commerce Clause still has teeth - there were five votes to limit Congress' power under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause. That means that the substantive restrictions on Congress starting with Lopez and Morrison are still very much part of this Court's thinking. Tactically, that's a loss for the government's position right then and there.

That means that the Obama Administration's primary argument for the bill lost. The argument that the left-wing legal academy said was totally bonkers got a majority in the Supreme Court and is basically the law. Over the long term, that's a victory for Constitutional conservatives.

- The idea that the government can withhold Medicare payments to the states to force them to implement ObamaCare lost 7-2. Even left-wing justices like Justice Breyer didn't buy that argument. Once again, you have liberals getting the result they wanted, but on the substance of the matter they just got handed some big losses too. This was not only a big loss for statists, but it was a decisive one.

- This opens the door to future challenges under the taxing power. Which assumes that the mandate isn't repealed in a future Congress.

Now, I still think Roberts was dead wrong. Congress didn't make the mandate a tax and made every effort not to call it a tax. Where Roberts went wrong is having the Court effectively re-write the statute to make it something that Congress clearly never intended it to be. Yes, the Court will generally interpret a statute to save it from unconstitutionality, but this went farther than that by re-writing the statute.

But the argument that liberals got the result they wanted while still losing on the substance seems to be the right argument based on the opinions.
 
2012-06-29 11:32:37 AM  

stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?


Everyone KNEW about the penalty for being uninsured. Obama made how it operates clear. Judge Roberts deciding to semantically label it a "tax" doesn't change anything or anyone's knowledge of how it works.

Quit being retarded.
 
2012-06-29 11:32:59 AM  
Obama didn't lie. Neither did anyone else. Nobody thinks of a mandate to buy auto insurance as a tax. Neither is a mandate to buy health insurance a tax.

"B-b-b-ut Roberts said it was a tax!"

It's a "tax" you don't have to pay if you buy health insurance. Just like you avoid fines and criminal penalties by purchasing auto insurance.

Yeah, it's just that simple.
 
2012-06-29 11:33:10 AM  

cchris_39: NateGrey: Republicans were right, America's economic system has been destroyed, the markets are responding:

Dow Jones
12,810.20 +207.94 (1.65%)

Healthcare +1.73%
Financial +1.90%

America's Job Creators have responded. LIIBBBBSSSSS!!11

Well duh.

Healthcare just got another 30 million paying customers and at least another $1.7 trillion (far starters) according to CBO.

An already big business just got alot bigger.

OTOH, watching libs rejoice about pouring their own money into the coffers of big business does provide some comfort.


Yeah, because we weren't already pouring money into the coffers of health insurance companies. Nothing's changed, except more people have access to health insurance and thus affordable health care. This is a bad thing because...why?
 
2012-06-29 11:34:22 AM  

WombatControl: This opens the door to future challenges under the taxing power.


How so? The ruling is that the PPACA is constitutional because it's a tax. There's not much wiggle room.
 
2012-06-29 11:34:25 AM  
Oh noes! What are they going to do now?!?

Tax Cigarettes?!?!? MAYBE EVEN TAX RECYCLABLES!!!!
 
2012-06-29 11:35:10 AM  
Umm here is a little history lessons to you tea party US history "experts".

upload.wikimedia.org

A source of government revenue was needed to pay the bond holders to whom the debt was owed. By December 1790, Hamilton believed import duties, which were the government's primary source of revenue, had been raised as high as was feasible.[4] He therefore promoted passage of an excise tax on domestically distilled spirits. This was to be the first tax levied by the national government on a domestic product.[5] Although taxes were politically unpopular, Hamilton believed the whiskey excise was a luxury tax that would be the least objectionable tax the government could levy.[6] In this, he had the support of some social reformers, who hoped a "sin tax" would raise public awareness about the harmful effects of alcohol.[7] The whiskey excise act, sometimes known as the "Whiskey Act", became law in March 1791.[8] George Washington defined the revenue districts, appointed the revenue supervisors and inspectors, and set their pay in November 1791.[9]


We had taxes on "behavior" in 1791!!!
 
2012-06-29 11:35:25 AM  

WombatControl: but this went farther than that by re-writing the statute.


Did they? What did the court materially change about the statute? It works exactly the same way now as it did before.
 
2012-06-29 11:36:30 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Philip Francis Queeg: Look at the massive black market in birth certificates so people can claim false dependents on their taxes.

[i47.tinypic.com image 240x300]

"Hello thar."


You mean like This
 
2012-06-29 11:36:36 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-06-29 11:37:05 AM  

cchris_39: Well duh.

Healthcare just got another 30 million paying customers and at least another $1.7 trillion (far starters) according to CBO.

An already big business just got alot bigger.

OTOH, watching libs rejoice about pouring their own money into the coffers of big business does provide some comfort.



So bad news for libs? Good news for cons?

Why so mad then?
 
2012-06-29 11:37:11 AM  

cchris_39: OTOH, watching libs rejoice about pouring their own money into the coffers of big business does provide some comfort.


Ah, the spin never ends, does it.
 
2012-06-29 11:37:50 AM  

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 500x409]

John Boehner and Nancy Pelosi in a press photo for the L.A. Times yesterday.


I love that picture so much. He looks like a five-year-old that dropped his ice cream cone.
 
2012-06-29 11:38:17 AM  
Seems like many are still in the first stages of mourning this morning...

"This is a victory for the Republicans!"

*rolls eyes*


I actually heard the AG from Ohio say that on NPR yesterday.
 
2012-06-29 11:39:00 AM  
RIP, 13th Amendment.

RIP, contract law.
 
2012-06-29 11:40:50 AM  
Actually, Justice Roberts Demolished Obama In His Supreme Court Ruling

Even when Republicans lose....they win?

Their reality is so twisted, must be nice.

What language was changed in the bill that was passed through both chambers of congress and what President Fartbama signed?

Any Cons can field this question?

Did they do a search and replace for the word "Tax" ?
 
2012-06-29 11:40:55 AM  

Corvus: Umm here is a little history lessons to you tea party US history "experts".

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x310]

A source of government revenue was needed to pay the bond holders to whom the debt was owed. By December 1790, Hamilton believed import duties, which were the government's primary source of revenue, had been raised as high as was feasible.[4] He therefore promoted passage of an excise tax on domestically distilled spirits. This was to be the first tax levied by the national government on a domestic product.[5] Although taxes were politically unpopular, Hamilton believed the whiskey excise was a luxury tax that would be the least objectionable tax the government could levy.[6] In this, he had the support of some social reformers, who hoped a "sin tax" would raise public awareness about the harmful effects of alcohol.[7] The whiskey excise act, sometimes known as the "Whiskey Act", became law in March 1791.[8] George Washington defined the revenue districts, appointed the revenue supervisors and inspectors, and set their pay in November 1791.[9]


We had taxes on "behavior" in 1791!!!


Refresh my memory here, but wasn't this tax the direct cause of the so-called Whiskey Rebellion?
 
2012-06-29 11:41:57 AM  

Lernaeus: RIP, 13th Amendment.

RIP, contract law.


i.imgur.com
 
2012-06-29 11:42:30 AM  

Lernaeus: RIP, 13th Amendment.

RIP, contract law.


RIP, meaningful, non-hyperbolic discussion of the legislation's strengths and weaknesses. But yes, the establishment of Romney's healthcare plan nation-wide is a trillion times worse than the Holocaust.
 
2012-06-29 11:44:19 AM  

stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?


Didn't Fox News win a court case guaranteeing their right to lie to viewers? You know, I'm pretty sure they did.

keylock71: Pincy: Ya, I was thinking that same thing. Are we all going to have to file proof of insurance vouchers with our 1040s from now on?

That's pretty much what we do in Massachusetts. Your Insurance provider gives you a form detailing that you were covered for the year (or part of the year), which must be submitted with state tax filings in order to avoid the penalty (unless you fall into one of the categories exempted).

Pretty simple, actually. It's gets mailed to you and you keep one for your records and submit the other with your taxes.


Does the insurance provider also provide a copy to the state, like your employer does for income?
 
2012-06-29 11:45:18 AM  

stewmadness: So, people of the left, you don't have any problem being lied to?


Death Panels vs. "You're paying the same thing you expected to pay, only it's now justified as a tax."

Yeah. The left is really getting one pulled over their eyes.
 
2012-06-29 11:46:27 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: RIP, meaningful, non-hyperbolic discussion of the legislation's strengths and weaknesses.


This is the worst Supreme Court decision since Dred Scott! Goodbye, America!
 
2012-06-29 11:46:42 AM  
Damn...all the whining and vitriol today. What's done is done.

The good thing is that the Commerce Clause has been limited. Roberts basically put the law back in the hands of Congress. If you don't like the law, vote in the GOP. I will bet dollars to donuts that if the GOP takes both houses of Congress and the Presidency that they will NOT repeal the ACA.
 
2012-06-29 11:46:45 AM  

Shyran: cchris_39: If we can teach people the dangers of 4 hour erections, we can teach them to treat their own sinus infections.

A.) You overestimate the attention span of the average American. 4 hours for an erection vs. a 10-15 day course of antibiotics that must be taken in its entirety to help minimize the possibility of developing resistant strains.
B.) Entrusting the average person to know with absolute certainty that the infection is bacterial and not viral.
C.) Entrusting the average person to know that it is in fact, a bacterial sinus infection and not something worse that starts off similarly, and thus knowing the right course of antibiotics to be taking (if antibiotics are, in fact, the solution)
D.) Knowing whether an antibiotic belongs to a specific class of which you or your family members are deathly allergic to.


E.) Knowing if/how that antibiotic will interact with other medications.
 
2012-06-29 11:47:11 AM  

qorkfiend: WombatControl: This opens the door to future challenges under the taxing power.

How so? The ruling is that the PPACA is constitutional because it's a tax. There's not much wiggle room.


Roberts essentially said that if anyone wants this thing to die, they'll have to pass new legislation. In his opinion, he stated that the penalty did not satisfy the statutory requirements for the Anti-Injunction Act, which, if it had, would have held up any further ruling by the Supreme Court until such time as the tax was assessed and collected by the IRS and someone would have to sue for a refund. However, he decided that the penalty did satisfy the constitutional requirement through Congress' power of taxation, which meant that this was the end all be all regarding the matter of this specific legislation, as opposed to a ruling further down the line if it had been upheld as constitutional AND having satisfied the requirement of the Anti-Injunction Act. Which is why Republican legislators are talking about repealing it now, as opposed to discussing further judicial challenges.
 
2012-06-29 11:47:19 AM  

Infernalist: Refresh my memory here, but wasn't this tax the direct cause of the so-called Whiskey Rebellion?


Yeah, and that anti-american socialist "President" Washington personally put them down.
 
2012-06-29 11:48:52 AM  

apoptotic: Shyran: cchris_39: If we can teach people the dangers of 4 hour erections, we can teach them to treat their own sinus infections.

A.) You overestimate the attention span of the average American. 4 hours for an erection vs. a 10-15 day course of antibiotics that must be taken in its entirety to help minimize the possibility of developing resistant strains.
B.) Entrusting the average person to know with absolute certainty that the infection is bacterial and not viral.
C.) Entrusting the average person to know that it is in fact, a bacterial sinus infection and not something worse that starts off similarly, and thus knowing the right course of antibiotics to be taking (if antibiotics are, in fact, the solution)
D.) Knowing whether an antibiotic belongs to a specific class of which you or your family members are deathly allergic to.

E.) Knowing if/how that antibiotic will interact with other medications.


Ah, yes, thank you. Bottom line, many reasons why it would be a Very Bad Idea.
 
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