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(politics.hu)   Poetic justice: leader of Hungary's antisemitic party finds out he's Jewish   (politics.hu) divider line 202
    More: Ironic, poetic justice, Jewish, Hungary, Gypsy Jobbik, two-thirds majority, anti-Semitic Jobbik  
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10453 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jun 2012 at 11:18 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-29 12:08:02 PM  

chuckufarlie: Magorn: Devolving_Spud: I have Christian parents, but I am not even part Christian. But if I had Jewish ancestors, I would somehow be all or part Jewish? WTF?

if your momma was Jewish, YOU are Jewish, and she was Jewish if Her momma was. It's basically a matrelineal thing, and because it's both a religion and tribal identity, conversion/apostasy doesn't get you out of it.

works the same way if your father was Jewish.


You are only considered a jew religiously if your mom was jewish or you did a formal conversion (for conservative and orthodox jews, Ithnk reform take either parent).

Crocoduck: Neither tribal identity nor religion should have a genetic component tied to them. That's the point. The guy in the link is pretty clearly not Jewish in any real sense, and it shouldn't matter what tribe his parents may have associated with or where they may or may not have gone to worship. This matrelineal labeling thing is an archaic and harmful device


If he is claiming some genetic defeciency with jews, then that does matter. I am guessing a guy in hi sposition does thingk that way.
 
2012-06-29 12:08:24 PM  
 
2012-06-29 12:09:02 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-06-29 12:09:34 PM  

divgradcurl: nevermind, i retract that last statement


chuckufarlie: divgradcurl: chuckufarlie: MBooda:

yes, I am calling you stupid. In your case, you are certainly stupid. There is nothing wrong with the question I asked and if you think that there is, you are incredibly stupid.


yeah, sorry, i misread your question and took it back. i guess i shouldn't have expected you to read more than just my comment before flaming back.
 
mhd
2012-06-29 12:09:55 PM  

chuckufarlie: When it comes to anti-Semitic attitudes, Jobbik is concerned with genetics. Religion is not even part of it either.

feel better??


Actually, it does seem to be a bit more complicated than that. Sure, for the Nazi-ish versions of anti-semitism, genetics seem to play a major role. But even that can be debated, as the actual racial theory was very shoddy (come one, "hamites"?) and probably can be counted as a thin pseudo-scientific veneer over the more old-fashioned anti-semitism (religious / historic).

But the Jobbik seems to be quite Christian. And in general Hungary has some pretty weird myths about that, including claiming that Jesus himself wasn't Jewish, but Parthian, that the Catholic Church is in league with or being controlled by "International Jewry" etc.
 
2012-06-29 12:12:03 PM  

TripleK: [i.imgur.com image 640x464]


Free lunch? Way to promote the stereotype, Szegedi.
 
2012-06-29 12:12:43 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: monoski: Devolving_Spud: I have Christian parents, but I am not even part Christian. But if I had Jewish ancestors, I would somehow be all or part Jewish? WTF?

Jewish is actually more than a religion.

It's actually debated in the more modern parts Jewish community, if "Jewish" is an ethnicity anymore. Sure, traditionally that's the case, but then it means that some Jews are less Jews than others, and that's problematic.


Debate does not make it less true. There is a religious aspect (hence converts) and there is a genetic component (hence tay-sachs disease) there are people who still debate if the earth is round or flat.
 
2012-06-29 12:13:43 PM  

FarkedOver: Fark means prick or dick in Hungarian, I believe.


yes, but it means tail, literally

and it's farok in singular, which i don't think is as explicitly used to mean dick as when you're talking about other people's farkok,

and when it starts fark- there's always a suffix

/but my magyar is a little rusty, as is a farkom
//sometimes the tail wags the dog

bonus: farkas - literally "having a tail" or "has a tail" is the hungarian word for wolf and is a common last name
 
2012-06-29 12:13:43 PM  

KellyX: "Knowing who is a pure-race Hungarian is not what counts. The important thing is the way one behaves as a Hungarian," he is quoted as saying.

What the fark is a pure-race hungarian?


A mongol, actually.

What few people, least of all Hungarian racists seem to realize is that Atilla the Hun and Ghengis Khan were distant cousins. The Huns were from the exact same Horse-riding nomadic culture of the central Asian Steppe that would produce Ghengis about a milenia later. NTTAWTT, but "white" they damn sure ain't
 
2012-06-29 12:14:21 PM  

BolloxReader: mhd: chuckufarlie: When it comes to anti-Semitic attitudes, they are concerned with genetics. Religion is not even part of it either.

The Spanish Inquisition would beg to differ.

Because the Spanish Inquisition's viewpoint has mattered in the last couple of centuries?

I did not expect that.


Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!

/obligatory
 
2012-06-29 12:15:55 PM  

MBooda: When in Budapest, visit the Shoes on the Danube.
[media-cdn.tripadvisor.com image 550x412]

In 1944 the Nazis formally took over running Hungary through their Arrow Cross surrogates. The Arrow Cross promptly rounded up Jews and stuffed them into trains bound for the camps. When the trains were full, the Arrow Cross started taking the Jews down to the river. They lined them up, made them take off their shoes, shot them in the back of the head and dumped the bodies in the river. Today there are bronze shoes permanently attached to the waterfront.


That's to keep Jews from coming down there at night and stealing them.
 
2012-06-29 12:16:43 PM  

Magorn: KellyX: "Knowing who is a pure-race Hungarian is not what counts. The important thing is the way one behaves as a Hungarian," he is quoted as saying.

What the fark is a pure-race hungarian?

A mongol, actually.

What few people, least of all Hungarian racists seem to realize is that Atilla the Hun and Ghengis Khan were distant cousins. The Huns were from the exact same Horse-riding nomadic culture of the central Asian Steppe that would produce Ghengis about a milenia later. NTTAWTT, but "white" they damn sure ain't


So Hungarians are a mix of Slavic and Asian? Or is Slavic a mix of White and Asian?
 
2012-06-29 12:16:51 PM  
Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.
 
mhd
2012-06-29 12:17:31 PM  

Magorn: The Huns were from the exact same Horse-riding nomadic culture of the central Asian Steppe that would produce Ghengis about a milenia later.


If I'm not mistaking this with some urban legend, the Huns "adopted" a lot, i.e. it started out with some steppe tribes, but the horde assimilated a lot of ethnically different groups during their voyages.
 
2012-06-29 12:17:43 PM  

lunogled: his wikipedia entry is pretty funny, especially the "work" part.


Haha, awesome.
 
2012-06-29 12:20:17 PM  

KellyX: Magorn: KellyX: "Knowing who is a pure-race Hungarian is not what counts. The important thing is the way one behaves as a Hungarian," he is quoted as saying.

What the fark is a pure-race hungarian?

A mongol, actually.

What few people, least of all Hungarian racists seem to realize is that Atilla the Hun and Ghengis Khan were distant cousins. The Huns were from the exact same Horse-riding nomadic culture of the central Asian Steppe that would produce Ghengis about a milenia later. NTTAWTT, but "white" they damn sure ain't

So Hungarians are a mix of Slavic and Asian? Or is Slavic a mix of White and Asian?


But Hungarians aren't really Huns. I mostly mean that the Magyars weren't, but there's also been a lot of history there since.
 
2012-06-29 12:20:59 PM  

Ennuipoet: [freeversephotography.com image 640x361]

/Way beyond my D- High School German, so Internet translated


Godwined in 3. That's was just a bit too early. Although, I must admit, my first thought was something like, "You know who else didn't know he was Jewish?"
 
2012-06-29 12:21:47 PM  

Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.


Thank goodness you cleared that all up for us. It's not as if the Nazis killed anyone just for having Jewish ancestry.
 
2012-06-29 12:22:04 PM  
What does he think he was, Polish Catholic?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-06-29 12:22:55 PM  

Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.


yes, Judaism is a religion.

Anti-Semitic (or anti-Jewish to be more accurate) behavior, however, is not about religion. It is about hating a group of people who are perceived as being part of a race of people, That is why these people want to investigate a person's genetic background.
 
2012-06-29 12:27:27 PM  

MBooda: chuckufarlie: Interesting - thanks for posting that. Is there any sort of a sign there to explain why the bronze shoes are there?

Just some small plaques, in Hebrew and English, in the stone embankment. Here's the English one:
[sites.google.com image 500x375]


Why isn't there a sign in Hungarian? Seems odd. Is it only for tourists?
 
2012-06-29 12:28:03 PM  

stevegarbowski: Do you know why Turkey invaded Hungary?


I know why the Soviet Union did. They got Hungary, went after Turkey, slipped on Greece and broke China.
 
2012-06-29 12:28:03 PM  
idiotflashback.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-06-29 12:29:01 PM  

mhd: Magorn: The Huns were from the exact same Horse-riding nomadic culture of the central Asian Steppe that would produce Ghengis about a milenia later.

If I'm not mistaking this with some urban legend, the Huns "adopted" a lot, i.e. it started out with some steppe tribes, but the horde assimilated a lot of ethnically different groups during their voyages.


You are right. Hungarians have a bit from every ethnicity in Central Europe. Asian, Slavic, Frank, Roman, Turkish, Cuman... even Jew and Gypsy.

Talking about pure-race Hungarians does not make sense.
 
2012-06-29 12:30:08 PM  

traylor: You are right. Hungarians have a bit from every ethnicity in Central Europe. Asian, Slavic, Frank, Roman, Turkish, Cuman... even Jew and Gypsy.

Talking about pure-race Hungarians does not make sense.


"We'll fark anything."

I should try living the motto.
 
2012-06-29 12:30:38 PM  

indylaw: Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.

Thank goodness you cleared that all up for us. It's not as if the Nazis killed anyone just for having Jewish ancestry.


As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.
 
2012-06-29 12:36:00 PM  

medius: traylor: You are right. Hungarians have a bit from every ethnicity in Central Europe. Asian, Slavic, Frank, Roman, Turkish, Cuman... even Jew and Gypsy.

Talking about pure-race Hungarians does not make sense.

"We'll fark anything."

I should try living the motto.


Yeah, while you are there, try and put a little Hungarian in the American.
 
2012-06-29 12:36:51 PM  

Kevin72: indylaw: Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.

Thank goodness you cleared that all up for us. It's not as if the Nazis killed anyone just for having Jewish ancestry.

As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.


It doesn't matter whether it is objectively true off somewhere in theory land. It matters what people's perceptions are. It is common for racist groups to consider the Jews to be an ethnicity, and therefore you can be "a Jew" and therefore an undesirable in their worldview even if you've been a Christian or an atheist your entire life. It doesn't matter that "Jewish" doesn't neatly fit the definition of "a race." It matters that bigots hate you if you have "Jewish blood."
 
2012-06-29 12:40:17 PM  

Europos: Very bad Internet translation (i.e. word by word never works) Ennuipoet, I'm afraid. Doesn't make any sense at all. I guess you wanted something like this.

Findet heraus, dass er möglicherweise jüdisch ist?
Das gefällt dem Führer gar nicht.


I rather thought it would be a horrible translation, honestly I could never do more than order a beer in German.
 
mhd
2012-06-29 12:45:27 PM  

Kevin72: As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.


Not quite. First of all, Hitler didn't really invent the pseudo-scientific anti-semitism, it was quite popular before that. Genetics were in their infancy and there was a boat load of silly racial theories. Some of whose are still taught in Waldorf schools, by the way...
Heck, the whole "semitic" thing started a couple of hundred years before that, believing that everyone in Asia was a descendent of Shem, one of Noah's sons.

Second, while the word "race" is better avoided, Jews as a "people" seems to be quite well supported, with shared genetic markers, common ancestry etc.
Whether that's an unbroken line leading towards the Biblical tribes seems to be a matter of discussion, although I believe it's the majority belief/theory in Israel itself. (Wasn't there a book a few years ago that caused some hubbub about this?)

And as many people here mentioned, it's not really about what's rational in this case, "being Jewish" here is interpreted along the lines of the Hungarian fascist's believes, i.e. genealogical.
 
2012-06-29 12:46:16 PM  

chuckufarlie: Seriously, are you really that stupid?


chuckufarlie: yes, I am calling you stupid. In your case, you are certainly stupid. There is nothing wrong with the question I asked and if you think that there is, you are incredibly stupid.


Dude, you're coming across as kind of an a$$hole. Just saying.
 
2012-06-29 12:46:44 PM  
How do you "find out" you belong to a religion?
 
mhd
2012-06-29 12:48:54 PM  

Ned Stark: How do you "find out" you belong to a religion?


Picture yourself awakening one night, hearing a distant sound. The next thing you notice is a bevvy of mohels abseiling from your ceiling. What follows is short, bloody, and even a bit shorter in the end.
 
2012-06-29 12:49:02 PM  

forteblast: Devolving_Spud: I have Christian parents, but I am not even part Christian. But if I had Jewish ancestors, I would somehow be all or part Jewish? WTF?

Jewish refers to both an ethnic group and a religion. Film at 11.


Yup. My ex husband converted to Judaism to marry his current wife, a Jewish Latina.

/The funny part is, his last name is Eichmann.
 
2012-06-29 12:49:15 PM  

indylaw: Kevin72: indylaw: Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.

Thank goodness you cleared that all up for us. It's not as if the Nazis killed anyone just for having Jewish ancestry.

As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.

It doesn't matter whether it is objectively true off somewhere in theory land. It matters what people's perceptions are. It is common for racist groups to consider the Jews to be an ethnicity, and therefore you can be "a Jew" and therefore an undesirable in their worldview even if you've been a Christian or an atheist your entire life. It doesn't matter that "Jewish" doesn't neatly fit the definition of "a race." It matters that bigots hate you if you have "Jewish blood."


Glad you cleared that up. Haters gonna hate, and bigots have skewed and inaccurate perceptions.
 
2012-06-29 12:50:56 PM  

TheHappTroll: It's like high profile closet homosexuals bashing homosexuals, right?


So he's republican then?
 
2012-06-29 12:54:01 PM  

mhd: Ned Stark: How do you "find out" you belong to a religion?

Picture yourself awakening one night, hearing a distant sound. The next thing you notice is a bevvy of mohels abseiling from your ceiling. What follows is short, bloody, and even a bit shorter in the end.


they can clip my tail when they take it out of my cold dead hands
 
2012-06-29 12:54:50 PM  

Kevin72: As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.


The thing is, the Jewish community really did start to display its own characteristic phenotypes, just as any ethnicity does. That phenomenon arose from a very different sort of isolation than most ethnicities do, in that said isolation was imposed by social constructs rather than geographic obstacles, but the process is recognizable. Over time it even developed a few particular genetic disorders, as many ethnicities do.

It has, of course, been argued that there is considerably more to race than biology. But at least in whatever ways biology plays a role in race, it's pretty much there.
 
2012-06-29 12:56:10 PM  
Being Jewish can also refer to ethnicity.
Tay-Sachs Disease is genetic and there are higher rates of it in certain ethnic groups. You do not risk getting Tay-Sachs Disease if you choose to follow a particular religion, it is an inheritable trait.
 
2012-06-29 01:01:08 PM  
First, I am devastated by the level of rampant stupidity displayed by the widespread assumption that Jewish people are only "Jewish" by way of religious choice.

Second, I am conversely in awe at the correct use of the IRONIC tag for two days in a row.

Net change in opinion of humanity: +0.
 
2012-06-29 01:02:10 PM  
blog.zap2it.com

Will add this to his Hannukah song.

/hot, unlike evenings on the second and third week of December
 
2012-06-29 01:02:28 PM  
Der takin our Jerbiks.
 
2012-06-29 01:03:52 PM  
People have to realize that unless you live on the east or west coast of the US or within a hundred miles of a few metropolitan centers, chances are excellent that you've never met a Jew. It's easy to believe lies about someone you've never met, and the intrusion of Jewish "otherness" into otherwise homogeneous environments can add to the problem. Case in point: a few years ago there was a brouhaha in Delaware over the only two Jewish families in a small town objecting to the omnipresent Christian prayers at school and community events. The pastor at one Jewish child's graduation ceremony pointed her out and requested that everyone prayer for her poor, damned soul. Others were subjected to antisemitic taunts by schoolmates and insistence by the school authorities on removing their "hats." One family felt obliged to move out of town, the other successfully sued.

Link

The point is, if those Jewish families hadn't live there, nobody would have ever complained about what can only be termed relentless Christian proselytization in the community; there would be nobody to be offended. There are lots and lots of places like that in the US. It's really easy to pick up antisemitic attitudes when everyone around you has them and there's no counter examples to make you believe otherwise.
 
2012-06-29 01:04:49 PM  

Kevin72: indylaw: Kevin72: Repeating: Judaism is a religion, period, end of story. All talk about race ethnicity national origin half-Jewish is senseless. The character in question had Jewish ancestors? So what? He doesn't have the religion of his ancestors, he even wants to persecute such. He is not Jewish even if his ancestors were. What does it all mean.

Thank goodness you cleared that all up for us. It's not as if the Nazis killed anyone just for having Jewish ancestry.

As stated above, the Nazis were under the influence of Adolph Hitler who told them that Judaism was a race not a religion, as completely untrue as that might be.


It's definitely an ethnicity.

In fact the nature of a "race" is a rather arbitrary distinction. It never had a purely objective scientific definition, and is even less meaningful today. That is, it had more meaning in the 1930's than now.

Because a "race" is just a distinguishing set of significant and observable genetic characteristics, and a lack of widespread interbreeding outside the group. The genetic markers don't necessarily need to be UNIQUE to that race. Well, back in the 1930's and for hundreds of years prior, there was less breeding of Jews with gentiles. There were surely some genetic markers more common among Jews but not unique. You COULD see a race there if you wanted to.

Since then, racial barriers of all types have been breaking down. I'd say communication and transportation making the world much smaller. "Black" is increasingly a meaningless term, as there are fewer and fewer people with no mixed black and white genetic heritage.

I'm saying the lines of what is a "race" was always arbitrary and lacking true objectivity, so, in the 1930's-1940's, seeing a Jewish "race" was only slightly more inaccurate than seeing "white" vs "black", "Native American", "Pacific Islander", etc as races.
 
2012-06-29 01:13:01 PM  

DWitchiewoman: Being Jewish can also refer to ethnicity.
Tay-Sachs Disease is genetic and there are higher rates of it in certain ethnic groups. You do not risk getting Tay-Sachs Disease if you choose to follow a particular religion, it is an inheritable trait.


Came here to say this.

Seriously, everyone can say that there's no phenotypical or genetic component to being "Jewish" until they're blue in the face, but the fact is obvious to anyone who pays the slightest bit attention to Anthropology. Look people, until fairly recently Jewish people in Europe were reproductively isolated from the surrounding populations due to cultural and religious reasons, thus they have distinctive genetic markers like high frequencies of Tay-Sachs within the population, and THAT makes them their own separate ethnicity.

Come on people, this is simple biology.
 
2012-06-29 01:15:00 PM  

Ned Stark: How do you "find out" you belong to a religion?


Duh...you start talking shiat about people of that religion, and the next thing you know someone starts poking into your own background.
 
2012-06-29 01:21:40 PM  

mhd: Ned Stark: How do you "find out" you belong to a religion?

Picture yourself awakening one night, hearing a distant sound. The next thing you notice is a bevvy of mohels abseiling from your ceiling. What follows is short, bloody, and even a bit shorter in the end.


Dammit, I should know better than to Fark while eating. Oh well, off to get another keyboard.
 
2012-06-29 01:26:47 PM  
Gormanoglu:
DWitchiewoman: Being Jewish can also refer to ethnicity.
Tay-Sachs Disease is genetic and there are higher rates of it in certain ethnic groups. You do not risk getting Tay-Sachs Disease if you choose to follow a particular religion, it is an inheritable trait.

Came here to say this.

Seriously, everyone can say that there's no phenotypical or genetic component to being "Jewish" until they're blue in the face, but the fact is obvious to anyone who pays the slightest bit attention to Anthropology. Look people, until fairly recently Jewish people in Europe were reproductively isolated from the surrounding populations due to cultural and religious reasons, thus they have distinctive genetic markers like high frequencies of Tay-Sachs within the population, and THAT makes them their own separate ethnicity.

Come on people, this is simple biology.


Yep!
 
mhd
2012-06-29 01:30:42 PM  
Do they have bagels in Hungary?
 
2012-06-29 01:33:50 PM  

mhd: Do they have bagels in Hungary?


not really, no

other jewish foods, yes
 
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