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(US Supreme Court) NewsFlash Supreme Court rules that Obamacare is constitutional. The bland mask that is Mitt Romney's face twitches with something called "emotion"   (supremecourt.gov) divider line 3382
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14915 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jun 2012 at 10:27 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-06-29 02:07:55 AM

ialdabaoth: WhyteRaven74: dlp211: And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Also you can't be dropped when you do get sick/hurt.

Which basically means the gene pool just ran out of chlorine.


The "gene pool" would have discarded Stephen Hawking, luckily, he lived in the UK.
 
2012-06-29 02:08:48 AM

Waldo Pepper: I simply said "i don't get it, how can the government require me to buy a service"



I don't get it either

I don't need police, or fire, or social security, medicare, or even the military

Why am I forced to buy these services?

And don't even get me started on forcing me to buy car insurance. TYRANNY
 
2012-06-29 02:08:58 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Waldo Pepper: again not the point. no most folks who have money don't waste money on something they don't need.

That's correct. And among those who make over $100,000 per year, they almost universally have medical insurance (<2% uninsured compared to >40% uninsured at the lowest income brackets). They certainly see the benefit of having insurance.

Waldo Pepper: actually I was right to make a bet as it was my health and money I was gambling with and yes it paid off when It could have easily have gone the other way.

No, it was our money you were gambling with, because the minute you had expenses that you couldn't pay, we would be picking up your bills.


actually at that point in time my parents and or other members of my family would have found a way to pay so yet again I was not gambling with your money. stop assuming it is your money.
 
2012-06-29 02:09:45 AM

dlp211: ialdabaoth: WhyteRaven74: dlp211: And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Also you can't be dropped when you do get sick/hurt.

Which basically means the gene pool just ran out of chlorine.

The "gene pool" would have discarded Stephen Hawking, luckily, he lived in the UK.


Steven Hawking is a schill for the atheist illuminati and their demonic reptoid masters. We're better off without him.
 
2012-06-29 02:10:41 AM

dlp211: Waldo Pepper: Corvus: Waldo Pepper: why do you assume someone who doesn't have insurance is requiring others to pay for his/her coverage.

Who do you think pays for it now when someone can't afford to pay their bill and has no insurance?

again I was talking about someone willing to pay their own way and not freeloaders.

You really think that "rich" people don't buy health insurance? Do you really think that people like Bill Gates, Mitt Romney, and Dimon don't have health insurance? They all do, you want to know why, it's called a hedge. It is cheaper for them if something does happen.

There are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very.........(n-1)very, (n)very few people that have the kind of money to self insure against the likes of cancer, an automobile accident, or some other catastrophic incident. And yes, those people get to pay to, because that is how society works.

Seriously, all you libertarians please move somewhere where libertarianism is embraced.

/oh that place doesn't exist, hmm I wonder why


Oh but it does

Regulation VACATION
 
2012-06-29 02:10:46 AM

intelligent comment below: BobBoxBody: Please. Spending over three years learning about disruption as it relates to business, society, and politics as a whole gives me a bit more insight into the finer nuances and enormity of what's really going on here over the longterm than probably 95% of the people posting in this thread. The old industrial ways are dying out and the political machines that were built around them are dying out with them. This simply the politicians way of trying to put a soon-to-be-failing industry on life support. It's just another bailout before things get bad enough for people to protest. Only people realize it, and if you thought people were getting uppity before, just wait till you see what people start throwing the politicians' way now.


I think that's enough alcohol for you tonight


fark this I'm going to bed. I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of guy but seeing the level of incoherence in this thread has just been depressing enough to make me WANT to start hitting the booze. Fortunately I don't got any, so godspeed and goodnight.
 
2012-06-29 02:12:45 AM

ialdabaoth: dlp211: ialdabaoth: WhyteRaven74: dlp211: And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Also you can't be dropped when you do get sick/hurt.

Which basically means the gene pool just ran out of chlorine.

The "gene pool" would have discarded Stephen Hawking, luckily, he lived in the UK.

Steven Hawking is a schill for the atheist illuminati and their demonic reptoid masters. We're better off without him.


But did you see him on The Simpsons?
 
2012-06-29 02:12:51 AM

intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: I simply said "i don't get it, how can the government require me to buy a service"


I don't get it either

I don't need police, or fire, or social security, medicare, or even the military

Why am I forced to buy these services?

And don't even get me started on forcing me to buy car insurance. TYRANNY


I would argue that I do benefit for all those service (you can opt out of SS) and not a single person here hasn't benefit from the police so that one is false to add to your argument.

owning a car is not a right and you can choose not to own a car and you don't get taxed if you don't own a car and no auto insurance.
 
2012-06-29 02:15:15 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Waldo Pepper: lets be honest, if it cost me $200 a year in a tax to not have insurance and I can still go to the ER and be treated for free passing the cost on to everyone else. Did this law solve anything other than putting more money into the insurance company pockets/

The "free" treatment you are guaranteed under EMTALA is quite limited. Yes, the ED must stabilize you in an emergency. Stabilize being the key word. If you have a heart attack, they will treat you until you are immediately out of danger, but they won't give you a bypass or an angioplasty or medication beyond that which you get while in the ED. The underlying heart problem is still there (and worse than ever), but all they must do for you is stop it from immediately killing you. If you want long-term care, you better hope you have insurance.

And of course they can still bill you and come to collect; they can send you through collections and ruin your credit rating. They cannot refuse to stabilize you because you can't pay, but that hardly means they cannot seek to collect on your debt.


is this any different than what they are required to do now?
 
2012-06-29 02:17:12 AM

Waldo Pepper: actually at that point in time my parents and or other members of my family would have found a way to pay so yet again I was not gambling with your money


So you'd leave your family with the job of coming up with who knows how much money cause you're too cheap to spend a few bucks?
 
2012-06-29 02:18:27 AM

Waldo Pepper: is this any different than what they are required to do now?


Actually now a lot fewer people will be showing up without insurance. Most people who don't have insurance aren't like you. They don't have it, not because they don't want it, but because they can't get it.
 
2012-06-29 02:20:16 AM

dlp211: Waldo Pepper: well I think there is a difference for paying for police and fire services. first off I would say even if you have never called the police you have benefited from their services and the same with the fire dept if they have ever put out a fire on a government building that part of your taxes went to build. when you got your license doing so you knew u were required to get auto insurance and driving is a privilege and not a right same with owning a home.

And by the same token, even if you haven't used health insurance, you have benefited from it. It allows the birth of future generations to be affordable, provides for vaccinations, ensures that a workforce is healthy enough to be at work and when they do get sick, get early treatment to return to work. And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Are you really that dumb to not understand that a healthy population is a productive population and by extension a rich population? They teach this in Macroeconomics 102, seriously, take an economics course.


are you really so rude to call me dumb? i'm asking questions that I want answer to and posing a statement that I think is serious.

funny your first paragraph was great I'm reading thinking okay this is making sense and then wham "are you really that dumb".

now as far as economics and healthy workforce, how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.
 
2012-06-29 02:21:16 AM

Waldo Pepper: did I say I was a libertarian?

I don't what bill gates does with his money but I'm sure there are quite a few very wealthy folks who are self insured when it comes to health care.

why is there such hatred and mean spirited discussion in a tread where there should be good civilized discussion about the issue.

I simply said "i don't get it, how can the government require me to buy a service"

I understand the need for health insurance and I understand anything can happen at any time but really the big health emergencies aren't the ones breaking the system it is all those folks nickel and diming the system with wasteful medical services only because their insurance will pay for it and since they don't have insurance they go to the freaking ER for a sore throat and a dr.'s note to miss work for a few days. (freeloaders) or doctors who know your insurance will cover some test or procedure that really isn't needed but they see the easy money.

this is where the reform is needed not by making it mandatory that everyone is covered.


No, you didn't say you were a libertarian, you just espoused their beliefs.

The reason for bringing up Bill Gates and the like is because you hypothesized that the "rich" don't carry health insurance when the truth of the matter is that they do, because as I said it is a hedge. It is the same reason they have life insurance, and they probably have a slue of other insurances that most of us don't have.

The reason for the nastiness is because if you would take 5 minutes to understand anything that we have been saying, you would understand the reason that this is needed. Single payer/Socialized medicine is not politically feasible in this country. To make sure that everyone has some sort of coverage it has to mandated. Surprisingly this has worked, in fact a Republican Governor enacted it and it is considered to be the only significant achievement of his term.

Now, many of us will agree with you that there is more that can be done, but you have focused on the funding of the bill which is why you are receiving so much grief. It has been discussed ad nauseum. And it is the big emergencies that are breaking the system. The system has to make up the difference by nickel and diming everyone else. It's also funny that you bring up the unnecessary tests because that is also apart of PPACA. It also sets up state boards to ensure that insurance/hospitals aren't raising their rates for a pure profit motive.

So why don't you go do some research, and when you have legitimate questions and complaints we can collect them and go to congress with them, until then your just a disingenuous dick bag.
 
2012-06-29 02:22:58 AM

Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)


Um, no
 
2012-06-29 02:24:23 AM

intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no


kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).
 
2012-06-29 02:24:31 AM

Waldo Pepper: actually at that point in time my parents and or other members of my family would have found a way to pay so yet again I was not gambling with your money. stop assuming it is your money.


If they had several hundred thousand dollars of liquid assets, maybe you should have just asked them to get you health insurance, which would be far easier for all involved. One in twenty hospital admissions costs over $190,000, and one in 200 costs over $550,000.
 
2012-06-29 02:24:54 AM

Waldo Pepper: how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.


If you measure productivity using GDP per hour worked, the United States is fourth, Norway, Luxembourg and the Netherlands are ahead of the US. In the US it's $59.00 per hour worked. In the Netherlands it's 65.1, in Luxembourg 74.5 and Norway it's 76.8. Oh and just below the US is Belgium at 58.5.
 
2012-06-29 02:24:57 AM

WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: actually at that point in time my parents and or other members of my family would have found a way to pay so yet again I was not gambling with your money

So you'd leave your family with the job of coming up with who knows how much money cause you're too cheap to spend a few bucks?


too cheap or couldn't afford it. really doesn't matter since I wasn't gambling with your money. neither your money or the governments money would have been involved had something happened.

you might not have even been paying taxes at the time
 
2012-06-29 02:25:33 AM

johne3819: intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).


if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.
 
2012-06-29 02:27:12 AM

Waldo Pepper: johne3819: intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).

if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.


How does that work? Do you have to be a sole proprietor/partnership, or can some Corp types do that as well?
 
2012-06-29 02:27:16 AM

WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.

If you measure productivity using GDP per hour worked, the United States is fourth, Norway, Luxembourg and the Netherlands are ahead of the US. In the US it's $59.00 per hour worked. In the Netherlands it's 65.1, in Luxembourg 74.5 and Norway it's 76.8. Oh and just below the US is Belgium at 58.5.


and england, canada, france?. seems our workers do a pretty good job at begin productive without socialized medicine
 
2012-06-29 02:28:59 AM

WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.

If you measure productivity using GDP per hour worked, the United States is fourth, Norway, Luxembourg and the Netherlands are ahead of the US. In the US it's $59.00 per hour worked. In the Netherlands it's 65.1, in Luxembourg 74.5 and Norway it's 76.8. Oh and just below the US is Belgium at 58.5.


If we could somehow get to the state the Scandinavians are in, well, let's just say I'd be amazed.
 
2012-06-29 02:31:53 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Waldo Pepper: actually at that point in time my parents and or other members of my family would have found a way to pay so yet again I was not gambling with your money. stop assuming it is your money.

If they had several hundred thousand dollars of liquid assets, maybe you should have just asked them to get you health insurance, which would be far easier for all involved. One in twenty hospital admissions costs over $190,000, and one in 200 costs over $550,000.


really has nothing to do with his argument about gambling with his money.

whether I won the gamble or not doesn't change the fact that I was Free to do with my money what I wanted and not forced to buy a service that I didn't feel I needed at that point in my life nor did get taxed for taking that gamble.

I don't think my dad was too concerned about me getting sick and having a long hospital stay, He was more concerned that I would do something stupid and die so he did have life insurance on me which would have been enough to bury me LOL
 
2012-06-29 02:32:41 AM

johne3819: WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.

If you measure productivity using GDP per hour worked, the United States is fourth, Norway, Luxembourg and the Netherlands are ahead of the US. In the US it's $59.00 per hour worked. In the Netherlands it's 65.1, in Luxembourg 74.5 and Norway it's 76.8. Oh and just below the US is Belgium at 58.5.

If we could somehow get to the state the Scandinavians are in, well, let's just say I'd be amazed.


I would have to get winter boots and a new thicker winter coat LOL
 
2012-06-29 02:33:51 AM

Waldo Pepper: dlp211: Waldo Pepper: well I think there is a difference for paying for police and fire services. first off I would say even if you have never called the police you have benefited from their services and the same with the fire dept if they have ever put out a fire on a government building that part of your taxes went to build. when you got your license doing so you knew u were required to get auto insurance and driving is a privilege and not a right same with owning a home.

And by the same token, even if you haven't used health insurance, you have benefited from it. It allows the birth of future generations to be affordable, provides for vaccinations, ensures that a workforce is healthy enough to be at work and when they do get sick, get early treatment to return to work. And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Are you really that dumb to not understand that a healthy population is a productive population and by extension a rich population? They teach this in Macroeconomics 102, seriously, take an economics course.

are you really so rude to call me dumb? i'm asking questions that I want answer to and posing a statement that I think is serious.

funny your first paragraph was great I'm reading thinking okay this is making sense and then wham "are you really that dumb".

now as far as economics and healthy workforce, how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.


We rank 4th in the world, France and Germany fall right behind us(they also mandate
It is hard to do a one to one with another country because everything has to be held constant except the thing you are trying to measure and this is just not really possible because as we know, economies are highly dynamic.
 
2012-06-29 02:34:29 AM

johne3819: Waldo Pepper: johne3819: intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).

if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.

How does that work? Do you have to be a sole proprietor/partnership, or can some Corp types do that as well?


my dad was a pastor and was considered self employed he could have paid the full 15% SS tax or opt out but not be able to collect off the years of opting out (he put in full 30+ years military/gov so he had that time in ss)
 
2012-06-29 02:37:11 AM

dlp211: Waldo Pepper: dlp211: Waldo Pepper: well I think there is a difference for paying for police and fire services. first off I would say even if you have never called the police you have benefited from their services and the same with the fire dept if they have ever put out a fire on a government building that part of your taxes went to build. when you got your license doing so you knew u were required to get auto insurance and driving is a privilege and not a right same with owning a home.

And by the same token, even if you haven't used health insurance, you have benefited from it. It allows the birth of future generations to be affordable, provides for vaccinations, ensures that a workforce is healthy enough to be at work and when they do get sick, get early treatment to return to work. And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Are you really that dumb to not understand that a healthy population is a productive population and by extension a rich population? They teach this in Macroeconomics 102, seriously, take an economics course.

are you really so rude to call me dumb? i'm asking questions that I want answer to and posing a statement that I think is serious.

funny your first paragraph was great I'm reading thinking okay this is making sense and then wham "are you really that dumb".

now as far as economics and healthy workforce, how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.

We rank 4th in the world, France and Germany fall right behind us(they also mandate
It is hard to do a one to one with another country because everything has to be held constant except the thing you are trying to measure and this is just not really possible because as we know, economies are highly dynamic.


really I don't think this will change productivity much in the U.S, people will still come to work sick so they can save their sick days for their kids or for time off to do something personal.

lets be honest I would think france's gp has more to do with their sub 40 hour work week than medicine. how sick does one get working less than 40 hours per week and having 5 weeks vacation a year lol
 
2012-06-29 02:37:58 AM
Well fark ate my comment.

Basically what I said, Productivity Per Person doesn't matter, what we need to look at is total productivity. If you are healthy and can work more, you will do more and thus are more productive, but not per hour.

Also, France and Germany are not that far behind on a productivity per capita statistic. Sweden, the UK and Ireland are all within striking distance as well.
 
2012-06-29 02:38:07 AM

Waldo Pepper: johne3819: Waldo Pepper: johne3819: intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).

if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.

How does that work? Do you have to be a sole proprietor/partnership, or can some Corp types do that as well?

my dad was a pastor and was considered self employed he could have paid the full 15% SS tax or opt out but not be able to collect off the years of opting out (he put in full 30+ years military/gov so he had that time in ss)


I think he was using a religious exemption not a business one. However, I know not tax law.
 
2012-06-29 02:39:02 AM

BobBoxBody: WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: I guess I just think this whole thing is a scam and we are all being taken for a ride.

Yes because we're all as dumb as you to think "Well hey, nothing's gonna happen to me, and regular doctor visits? For pussies".

Solving our healthcare woes is a problem with business model. I answered this question at length like four or five pages back but I guess everyone was too busy fecklessly arguing that it got lost in there.

He is right though, this is a scam. It's a preemptive bailout for the health insurance industry because they are trying to protect themselves from low-market alternatives from rising up and disrupting them. This doesn't even solve the fundamental issue that healthcare is too expensive. The only way to address that is via disruption not making everyone have healthcare which is just going to turn into a massive clusterfark at the end of the day for everyone financially. That's the short uncomplicated answer. Adding more debt on the existing deficit is not the solution, and since people are now more educated via the internet and are wising up to the need for financial education, people are recognizing this bullshiat for what it is, hence the outrage.

I used to be 20 years old and a dumb naive idealist who worshiped Michael Moore but then I actually learned about how the world and realized something: You can't spend what you don't have. If we follow through on this (which I highly doubt this is likely going to get shot down before it even gets a chance to take effect) then it will only make things worse down the road rather than better for reasons that I already elaborated on in an earlier post so go back and read that if you want a more comprehensive view of how to fix this shiat and why Obamacare doesn't work.


thank you. well said
 
2012-06-29 02:40:36 AM

vernonFL: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the things that people don't like about Obamacare is that they'll be required to buy health insurance that they feel they don't need as they are in generally good health?

That is the whole issue. Say you're 25 and you say, "I'm young and healthy, I don't need insurance." So you don't buy any. Then, you get cancer and you try to get insurance, nobody will insure you because you have cancer.


True, there is that as well as you never know when an accident will happen
 
2012-06-29 02:40:44 AM

Waldo Pepper: and england, canada, france?. seems our workers do a pretty good job at begin productive without socialized medicine


Not really. And also productivity is a rather tricky measuring stick when a huge number of people aren't working manufacturing or agricultural jobs. There's no real way to measure productivity for an accountant, computer programmer and others. Hell one could argue certain jobs aren't productive at all. Plus there are also factors like hours worked in a week and other things, where the US does not look good at all.
 
2012-06-29 02:41:02 AM

johne3819: Waldo Pepper: johne3819: Waldo Pepper: johne3819: intelligent comment below: Waldo Pepper: (you can opt out of SS)

Um, no

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).

if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.

How does that work? Do you have to be a sole proprietor/partnership, or can some Corp types do that as well?

my dad was a pastor and was considered self employed he could have paid the full 15% SS tax or opt out but not be able to collect off the years of opting out (he put in full 30+ years military/gov so he had that time in ss)

I think he was using a religious exemption not a business one. However, I know not tax law.


maybe and I also believe if you incorporate yourself you may opt out.
 
2012-06-29 02:43:03 AM

Waldo Pepper: dlp211: Waldo Pepper: well I think there is a difference for paying for police and fire services. first off I would say even if you have never called the police you have benefited from their services and the same with the fire dept if they have ever put out a fire on a government building that part of your taxes went to build. when you got your license doing so you knew u were required to get auto insurance and driving is a privilege and not a right same with owning a home.

And by the same token, even if you haven't used health insurance, you have benefited from it. It allows the birth of future generations to be affordable, provides for vaccinations, ensures that a workforce is healthy enough to be at work and when they do get sick, get early treatment to return to work. And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Are you really that dumb to not understand that a healthy population is a productive population and by extension a rich population? They teach this in Macroeconomics 102, seriously, take an economics course.

are you really so rude to call me dumb? i'm asking questions that I want answer to and posing a statement that I think is serious.

funny your first paragraph was great I'm reading thinking okay this is making sense and then wham "are you really that dumb".

now as far as economics and healthy workforce, how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.


Taken from WSJ. French and German workers are as productive, on a per hour basis, as US workers, although US workers tend to work more hours per year, which leads to greater GDP per worker per year. Two effects worth noting: (1) workers who work fewer hours should be more productive per hour, as one's effectiveness tends to degrade over a long workday (2) excluding less productive workers (i.e. having a higher unemployment rate, as Germany and France do at 9-10% vs 5% here) should lead to higher average productivity.

duende.uoregon.edu
From here
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2004/11/eu-v s-us-labo r-and-productivity-data.html
 
2012-06-29 02:43:50 AM

WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: and england, canada, france?. seems our workers do a pretty good job at begin productive without socialized medicine

Not really. And also productivity is a rather tricky measuring stick when a huge number of people aren't working manufacturing or agricultural jobs. There's no real way to measure productivity for an accountant, computer programmer and others. Hell one could argue certain jobs aren't productive at all. Plus there are also factors like hours worked in a week and other things, where the US does not look good at all.


I know that, i work retail and if I take my divided by 40 hours not so bad but divided by the hours I work UGH.

I read something about the french work 35 hour weeks but are as if not more productive than us as they don't spend hours during the week doing personal things at work as they have enough time to do it at home.
 
2012-06-29 02:44:15 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: vernonFL: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the things that people don't like about Obamacare is that they'll be required to buy health insurance that they feel they don't need as they are in generally good health?

That is the whole issue. Say you're 25 and you say, "I'm young and healthy, I don't need insurance." So you don't buy any. Then, you get cancer and you try to get insurance, nobody will insure you because you have cancer.

True, there is that as well as you never know when an accident will happen


That's why you need the mandate (though single payer would have been cleaner). Everyone would wait to buy insurance until they got sick, Since there would be no Pre-Existing Condition, insurers would have to take you on. Someone has to pay.

/Yeah Chief Justice Roberts!
 
2012-06-29 02:44:27 AM

Waldo Pepper: people will still come to work sick so they can save their sick days for their kids


Except for those people who don't get sick days or have to get doctor's notes for sick days. US labor laws need serious overhauls, yet we have a bunch of people too afraid to do it and others who cry bloody murder whenever it's suggested.

Waldo Pepper: thank you. well said


It's well said that he said you can't spend what you don't have, yet the legislation makes sure no one spends what they don't have?
 
2012-06-29 02:44:45 AM

Waldo Pepper: really has nothing to do with his argument about gambling with his money.

whether I won the gamble or not doesn't change the fact that I was Free to do with my money what I wanted and not forced to buy a service that I didn't feel I needed at that point in my life nor did get taxed for taking that gamble.

I don't think my dad was too concerned about me getting sick and having a long hospital stay, He was more concerned that I would do something stupid and die so he did have life insurance on me which would have been enough to bury me LOL


Even if your parents could have afforded $500,000 in medical bills, why on Earth would you hang that sword of Damocles over their heads? Especially because if they agree to act as a guarantor of your bills, they assume legal liability for the repayment - so if the bills climb too high and they can't pay, they are forced to declare bankruptcy, so it ruins their credit as well as your own.
 
2012-06-29 02:46:26 AM

WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: people will still come to work sick so they can save their sick days for their kids

Except for those people who don't get sick days or have to get doctor's notes for sick days. US labor laws need serious overhauls, yet we have a bunch of people too afraid to do it and others who cry bloody murder whenever it's suggested.

Waldo Pepper: thank you. well said

It's well said that he said you can't spend what you don't have, yet the legislation makes sure no one spends what they don't have?


I meant your post LOL
 
2012-06-29 02:47:24 AM

Waldo Pepper: I meant your post LOL


ohhhhhh :)
 
2012-06-29 02:49:03 AM

Sum Dum Gai: Waldo Pepper: really has nothing to do with his argument about gambling with his money.

whether I won the gamble or not doesn't change the fact that I was Free to do with my money what I wanted and not forced to buy a service that I didn't feel I needed at that point in my life nor did get taxed for taking that gamble.

I don't think my dad was too concerned about me getting sick and having a long hospital stay, He was more concerned that I would do something stupid and die so he did have life insurance on me which would have been enough to bury me LOL

Even if your parents could have afforded $500,000 in medical bills, why on Earth would you hang that sword of Damocles over their heads? Especially because if they agree to act as a guarantor of your bills, they assume legal liability for the repayment - so if the bills climb too high and they can't pay, they are forced to declare bankruptcy, so it ruins their credit as well as your own.


you were never young and invincible lol

really get off it, I was making a point about why I didn't feel I needed insurance and I under stand it was a gamble that paid off.

heck for all I know my dad had medical insurance on me in case something happen yet nothing did so I never knew about it.

doesn't change the fact that I was able to make the choice with my money and not the government telling me what to do with it.
 
2012-06-29 02:49:37 AM

TenJed_77: Waldo Pepper: dlp211: Waldo Pepper: well I think there is a difference for paying for police and fire services. first off I would say even if you have never called the police you have benefited from their services and the same with the fire dept if they have ever put out a fire on a government building that part of your taxes went to build. when you got your license doing so you knew u were required to get auto insurance and driving is a privilege and not a right same with owning a home.

And by the same token, even if you haven't used health insurance, you have benefited from it. It allows the birth of future generations to be affordable, provides for vaccinations, ensures that a workforce is healthy enough to be at work and when they do get sick, get early treatment to return to work. And now, you can't go bankrupt if you do have insurance because there is no lifetime limit which again is a benefit to all of society.

Are you really that dumb to not understand that a healthy population is a productive population and by extension a rich population? They teach this in Macroeconomics 102, seriously, take an economics course.

are you really so rude to call me dumb? i'm asking questions that I want answer to and posing a statement that I think is serious.

funny your first paragraph was great I'm reading thinking okay this is making sense and then wham "are you really that dumb".

now as far as economics and healthy workforce, how do socialist medicine countries rate on productivity vs the U.S and other countries without socialized medicine.

Taken from WSJ. French and German workers are as productive, on a per hour basis, as US workers, although US workers tend to work more hours per year, which leads to greater GDP per worker per year. Two effects worth noting: (1) workers who work fewer hours should be more productive per hour, as one's effectiveness tends to degrade over a long workday (2) excluding less productive workers (i.e. having a higher unemployment ra ...


In other words, the US is better at exploiting their workforce, whereas Europe is better at giving their workforce the ability to do their job well.

People as people vs. people as "human capital".
 
2012-06-29 02:54:40 AM

Waldo Pepper: my dad was a pastor



And yet you still hold these ridiculous libertarian views
 
2012-06-29 02:54:56 AM

Waldo Pepper: WhyteRaven74: Waldo Pepper: and england, canada, france?. seems our workers do a pretty good job at begin productive without socialized medicine

Not really. And also productivity is a rather tricky measuring stick when a huge number of people aren't working manufacturing or agricultural jobs. There's no real way to measure productivity for an accountant, computer programmer and others. Hell one could argue certain jobs aren't productive at all. Plus there are also factors like hours worked in a week and other things, where the US does not look good at all.

I know that, i work retail and if I take my divided by 40 hours not so bad but divided by the hours I work UGH.

I read something about the french work 35 hour weeks but are as if not more productive than us as they don't spend hours during the week doing personal things at work as they have enough time to do it at home.


It's more complicated than that, but it is the general idea. I'm from Illinois originally, I've been living in France since 1996. My official work week is 37 hours, I get 1 non-cumulative day off every month of the year except for August, and I finish early on Friday. I also have five weeks vacation, national health care that pays for 70% of costs, a health insurance program from my job, that pays for the other 30% and for stuff like glasses or contacts and full dental. And overtime hours are exonerated from income taxes, which was cool because as a systems engineer(that is my actual job title) I've been making about 3000 to 4000 thousand a year in overtime, because some work has to be done outside of business hours.
 
2012-06-29 02:59:12 AM

Waldo Pepper: you were never young and invincible lol

really get off it, I was making a point about why I didn't feel I needed insurance and I under stand it was a gamble that paid off.

heck for all I know my dad had medical insurance on me in case something happen yet nothing did so I never knew about it.

doesn't change the fact that I was able to make the choice with my money and not the government telling me what to do with it.


But it's clearly not just your money. The fact your plan B was "drive family into financial ruin" doesn't really make it any better than "stick taxpayers with the bill". You're still leaving someone else holding the bag.

Unless you are in the top 1% of the US population, you cannot take the full risk of being uninsured upon yourself, because you don't have the assets to back that up if things go wrong. You can talk about gambling with 'your money' when you become wealthy enough to independently finance all possible contingencies without relying on anyone else.
 
2012-06-29 04:58:05 AM

ialdabaoth: People as people vs. people as "human capital".


As a dirty commie-socialist-liberal-Yurpean, I am moved to ask: you don't work for my employer, do you? The only time I've seen 'Human Capital' used as a term was in the new employee handbook...

That said, we're a multinational. When I mentioned the term to my friends here (all in professional occupations, one way or another), they were all appropriately horrified.

Mind you, we are all horrified about the state of US healthcare. Anecdotal, but recently my employer offered me a transfer to the US West Coast - a nicer climate, a bigger house, and a nice raise. Didn't take it up in the end, and one of the core reasons why was the healthcare provisioning. It wasn't a bad plan by US standards, but against the background of "100% coverage, no fees", it looked terrible. I wonder sometimes if the US actually undercuts itself economically by not providing national healthcare - it certainly kept several other members of my team from US transfers, and I expect a similar story is played out in other multinationals.

Another little vignette from the 'socialised medicine' section - when ym wife first arrived here, she went for a routine medical checkup, and then stopped at their reception on the way out. Eventually they asked her what she wanted, and she asked what her co-pay was. And then had to explain what a co-pay was. They looked at her like she had two heads, and sent her on her way.
 
2012-06-29 07:03:02 AM

CroakerBC: ialdabaoth: People as people vs. people as "human capital".

As a dirty commie-socialist-liberal-Yurpean, I am moved to ask: you don't work for my employer, do you? The only time I've seen 'Human Capital' used as a term was in the new employee handbook...

That said, we're a multinational. When I mentioned the term to my friends here (all in professional occupations, one way or another), they were all appropriately horrified.


I'm a USAian, where terms like "Human Capital", "Human Resources", "Downsizing", "Outsourcing", and the like were invented. You're being exposed to those terms because most "multinational" corporations take their marching orders from New York.

Mind you, we are all horrified about the state of US healthcare. Anecdotal, but recently my employer offered me a transfer to the US West Coast - a nicer climate, a bigger house, and a nice raise. Didn't take it up in the end, and one of the core reasons why was the healthcare provisioning. It wasn't a bad plan by US standards, but against the background of "100% coverage, no fees", it looked terrible. I wonder sometimes if the US actually undercuts itself economically by not providing national healthcare - it certainly kept several other members of my team from US transfers, and I expect a similar story is played out in other multinationals.

Well, yes, but the problem is that we don't CARE about our economy; we only care about siphoning it off to gain more international power. A few thousand people in this country matter; the rest of us are plebs. It's astoundingly feudal.

Another little vignette from the 'socialised medicine' section - when ym wife first arrived here, she went for a routine medical checkup, and then stopped at their reception on the way out. Eventually they asked her what she wanted, and she asked what her co-pay was. And then had to explain what a co-pay was. They looked at her like she had two heads, and sent her on her way.

Heh. Around here, average co-pay is a few hundred dollars for most "important" procedures, and even then they'll only cover the next $1500 or so. Need a kidney and your children will be poor for the rest of their lives; it literally makes more sense to kill yourself.
 
2012-06-29 07:12:51 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Small government doesn't declare who you can sleep with, who you can love, and who you can marry. Small government doesn't demonize the non-white non-older non-male non-Christians. Small government doesn't tell women what to do with their bodies or try to shame and humiliate them for not following what Christians think. Small government isn't turning America into a Christian theocracy.


^^^^^^^ Partly why I want Smaller government.^^^^^^^

intelligent comment below: L82DPRT: Here I was hoping President Jackwagon's legacy would be getting us off foreign oil.

Some 'Let's put a man on the moon" Moment but nope just another massive expansion of the Welfare State any Farking TOTUS could put his BHO on.

Congrats Way To Go Big Dreamer.


Right. Nothing says welfare state like buying private insurance plans...

Why lower costs for skyrocketing health care costs when we can put a man on the moon? Now THAT'S IMPORTANT! Idiot


No, nothing says Welfare State like entitling an additional 30M people to be eligible but you BELIEVE Obamacare will lower HC costs so nevermind.


Khellendros: L82DPRT: The mandate is a tax the IRS is forbidden to collect or seek criminal or civil penalties for not paying.

Suck it, Responsible Insurance Purchasers.

Linking to "Real Clear Politics", now. You're nothing if not consistent.


It's Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC. Is he wrong?
 
2012-06-29 08:02:12 AM
I see a school bus driving towards the edge of a cliff.

The driver just put the accelerator to the floor, and the window lickers in the back started cheering.
 
2012-06-29 08:06:08 AM

RamblinMan: I see a school bus driving towards the edge of a cliff.

The driver just put the accelerator to the floor, and the window lickers in the back started cheering.


-1/10
 
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