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(US Supreme Court) NewsFlash Supreme Court rules that Obamacare is constitutional. The bland mask that is Mitt Romney's face twitches with something called "emotion"   (supremecourt.gov) divider line 3382
    More: NewsFlash, obamacare, supreme courts, Mitt Romney, supreme court ruling  
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14917 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jun 2012 at 10:27 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-06-28 01:33:25 PM  

bwilson27: BONER IS CRYING NOW.


I haven't seen a Bohner weep like this since Roseanne released her hardcore anal gape lesbian sex tape guest starring Paula Deen and Beth Ditto.
 
2012-06-28 01:33:30 PM  

dmax: Lorelle: *cries tears of joy*

/is pushing 50
//has a pre-existing condition
///can't afford a health care plan right now

This is what we were trying to accomplish. Americans help their fellow citizens, not throw them to the wolves.


Damn right that's what we do! I send out a big 'thank you' to our Supreme Court for doing the right thing for our poor, sick and unfortunate citizens.

/I hope to never again hear of someone losing their house because their kid had brain cancer....
 
2012-06-28 01:33:43 PM  
I was surprised at first, but the more I think about it the more I realize I shouldn't have been. The Roberts Court was heading into being considered one of the worst courts in American History by constitutional scholars. Citizens United is already considered one of the worst decisions ever made by a Court, in fact.

Roberts didn't want his legacy to be 'selling politicians to corporations and denying poor children heath care.' Legacy means almost everything to these people.
 
2012-06-28 01:33:56 PM  

bwilson27: FAUX is trying hard hard hard hard to scream TAX TAX TAX as loud as they can.


Is that in between whining that the middle and lower classes don't pay ENOUGH tax? If this is a tax, it's a tax on people who don't have health insurance. Wealthy people have health insurance.
 
2012-06-28 01:33:57 PM  

Bungles: If you are born, live, and die in the US, you will use healthcare. It may just be signing off your corpse, but you will.

The amount of people that entirely avoid healthcare of any sort could fit in phonebox.


So you admit: there are individuals that are subject to taxation under Obamacare, which Ginsburg alleges is valid under Commerce clause because ALL individuals are actors in the medical care market, and yet they aren't actors in the medical care market. Namely those individuals that just live in the US and don't use any medical care.

Close2TheEdge: If you are in a car accident, then what? Are you going to mumble to the EMT to give you St Johns Wort while you lie bleeding in the crumpled wreckage?

//Idiot


drewsclues: So, when you collapse in the street (not a threat, but an example) and someone calls the paramedics and they take you to the hospital for treatment, that hospital is NOT going to charge you because you didn't have an opportunity to partcipate in the "free market" of health care. Uh-huh....


Where'd you two get your GED in law from? Fark.com? You're addressing potential ramifications for not having the individual mandate, which is the wrong inquiry. The correct inquiry is whether Congress has the power to create the individual mandate.

As an example of how silly Ginsburg's line of thought is, replace "medical care" with "owning footwear".

"Unlike the market for almost any other product or service, the market for footwear is one in which all individuals inevitably participate." "Virtually every person residing in the United States, sooner or later, will own a piece of footwear." And then Congress has the power to make a law that: requires everyone in the US to prove they own footwear, and fines you if you can't prove you own footwear.

Boom, Congress would now have power to regulate anything that "virtually everyone" uses/does.
 
2012-06-28 01:34:29 PM  

Joe Blowme: Lets look at al the awsome new and increased taxes in this fil
Taxes that took effect in 2010:

1. Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (Min$/immediate): $50,000 per hospital if they fail to meet new "community health assessment needs," "financial assistance," and "billing and collection" rules set by HHS. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,961-1,971

2. Codification of the "economic substance doctrine" (Tax hike of $4.5 billion). This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely-legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks "substance" and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 108-113

3. "Black liquor" tax hike (Tax hike of $23.6 billion). This is a tax increase on a type of bio-fuel. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 105

4. Tax on Innovator Drug Companies ($22.2 bil/Jan 2010): $2.3 billion annual tax on the industry imposed relative to share of sales made that year. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,971-1,980

5. Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike ($0.4 bil/Jan 2010): The special tax deduction in current law for Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies would only be allowed if 85 percent or more of premium revenues are spent on clinical services. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,004

6. Tax on Indoor Tanning Services ($2.7 billion/July 1, 2010): New 10 percent excise tax on Americans using indoor tanning salons. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,397-2,399

Taxes that took effect in 2011:

7. Medicine Cabinet Tax ($5 bil/Jan 2011): Americans no longer able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957-1,959

8. HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike ($1.4 bil/Jan 2011): Increases additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent. Bill: PPACA; Page: ...


Would you rather have seen the Democrats finance the bill through borrowing like the Republicans did with Medicare Part D?
 
2012-06-28 01:34:32 PM  
So wait, now Congress is going to hold Holder, Obama, Roberts and Doctor Hibbert in contempt? Am I hearing this right?
 
2012-06-28 01:34:41 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Uh, is it just me or did Boehner and Cantor just punt?


Well, they put all their chips on the roulette wheel space marked "unconstitutional" and now they have to buy some more chips and decide what space to play next.
 
2012-06-28 01:34:44 PM  
fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkk kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk! !
 
2012-06-28 01:34:59 PM  
I don't think anyone is really happy with the mandate. It's a patch job on a leaking tire.

Some people want to ignore the damage to the tire and just drive on it.
Some people see the patch as a working solution until the tire can be replaced.
Some people want to throw away the patch, and MacGyver a new one from pixie dust and the flesh of the poor.

But I don't think anyone sees the patch as a permanent solution.
 
2012-06-28 01:35:24 PM  

kronicfeld: bhcompy: Last I checked freedom of choice(of many different flavors) was a huge reason why this country came in to existence.

Except for blacks. And Chinese. And Irish. And Women.


No racial, cultural or sexist divisions exist in this country. One reason why America stands above the rest.

[cryingeagle.pic]
 
2012-06-28 01:35:46 PM  

kronicfeld: bwilson27: FAUX is trying hard hard hard hard to scream TAX TAX TAX as loud as they can.

Is that in between whining that the middle and lower classes don't pay ENOUGH tax? If this is a tax, it's a tax on people who don't have health insurance. Wealthy people have health insurance.


TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX!
derp derp
TAX TAX TAX TAX !!!!!
 
2012-06-28 01:35:46 PM  

inner ted: //would love it if the government mandated you had to buy my products.



Open a car insurance company

/waiting for conservatards to cry how that's un-Constitutional as well
 
2012-06-28 01:35:50 PM  
Victory for the poor and healthy, buy something you don't need or pay a tax penalty!!!!
 
2012-06-28 01:36:00 PM  
Good news! This thread will be fun but, for now, I think I'll head over to Freeper land. For the lulz.
 
2012-06-28 01:36:13 PM  

FinFangFark: Moss Covered Three Handled Middle Class Are Farked Gredunza


FirstNationalBastard: So, people like the individual components, but hate Obamacare.

Republicans: making you vote against your own interests for 30 years.

/gredunza!


I see this has been covered already

By that i mean 2008

Not the year
 
2012-06-28 01:36:34 PM  
So Roberts said that the fine was not a tax for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act, but now contradicts himself and says that indeed it is a tax in order to uphold the mandate, because otherwise it would be facially unconstitutional. Is there any decision made by John Roberts that is not pro-corporation?
 
2012-06-28 01:36:37 PM  

mrshowrules: Rev.K: [www.lackenbauer.ca image 288x414]

Dear America,

I might be dead, but I'm proud of you.

- Tommy Douglas

The greatest Canadian ever. 50 years from now Obama may very well be considered the greatest President ever.


Hes Kiefer Sutherlands I mean Jack Bauers grandpapa
 
2012-06-28 01:36:50 PM  

gothelder: Lando Lincoln: I can't afford an aircraft carrier.

I work for Northrop Grumman, we just spun off Huntington-Ingalls, I'll see what I can do about getting you an employee discount, since my support desk still helps em out.


Man, and to think I was excited when I found out we get a discount on Microsoft Office!

//NGIT NY
 
2012-06-28 01:36:59 PM  
Publikwerks


Where to I go to sign up to be on a death panel? I really want to start killing people immediately. Especially old ones who love America and work hard for a living.


You can make snarky comments because you think it makes you look witty but "death panels" aren't a literal interpretation. As an intelligent person you should know how its done.

First some medical organization says Women over 50 don't need to have mammograms as a standard procedure because the benefit in detecting breast cancer is small. Men you don't need to take that prostrate cancer test because the benefits out weigh the risk. Mister Recovering Heart Attack victum, you don't need to take an annual stress test unless you have pain, a cheaper Eco is all you need.

Etc., etc, etc.
 
2012-06-28 01:37:04 PM  

jigger: The Crepes of Wrath: I must be the only one not surprised because the precedent was set decades ago. You're required, via the FICA act, to pay a tax that provides for your own (minimal) retirement fund, as well as other programs (Medicare, benefits for the disabled, etc.). This really isn't significantly different from that.

Are Social Security and Medicare run by private for-profit companies? Will the federal government now withhold money from your paycheck to pay for your health insurance? No and no. So you see, these two things are significantly different.


Oh my gosh! You are the smartest constitutional law scholar in the whole world. It's too bad that you've apparently been in a coma for the last two years and just woke up less than four hours ago, because otherwise you would have had a chance to explain the subtle nuances of your "two things are significantly different" argument to the Supreme Court and they would have ruled differently. You could have changed history!
 
2012-06-28 01:37:42 PM  

sunlion: Somewhere out there, a Republican is loading a weapon, preparing to die of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It's a good day.


It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out some "conservative" lost their mind and killed a "liberal" over this. Maybe the coworker that is for it and/or an Obama supporter?
 
2012-06-28 01:37:50 PM  

nickerj1: "Unlike the market for almost any other product or service, the market for footwear is one in which all individuals inevitably participate." "Virtually every person residing in the United States, sooner or later, will own a piece of footwear." And then Congress has the power to make a law that: requires everyone in the US to prove they own footwear, and fines you if you can't prove you own footwear.


Never make analogies again.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:05 PM  

vygramul: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Uh, is it just me or did Boehner and Cantor just punt?

Well, they put all their chips on the roulette wheel space marked "unconstitutional" and now they have to buy some more chips and decide what space to play next.


Yeah, but...really? Literally months to prepare and NO time spent on plan b? Just that one guy who accidentally posted his speeches to youtube? He's looking like a genius now.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:39 PM  

ItsMyNameYouCantHaveIt: I actually fear for John Robert's life now.


As long as Roberts doesn't go hunting with Scalia and Dick Cheney, he will be OK.

/Right now listening to Boehner and his banal band of bullsh*tters give their rebuttals.
//Neo-Conservative Tear bottles filling all over America.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:53 PM  

nyseattitude: Weaver95: nyseattitude: Did BillCo and TenpoundsofDerp die of heart attacks when the announcement was made?

they're probably in a meeting to nail down what the talking points are for the weekend. the GOP group mind is moving rather slow today.

This was my first thought of how they reacted
[mlizcochico.com image 364x300]

This was my second
[www.flicksandbeats.com image 352x288]


I called that the GOP was totally unprepared for this. Literally, the only central GOP directive on this was not to spike the football when they won.
 
2012-06-28 01:39:00 PM  

jigger: So Roberts said that the fine was not a tax for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act, but now contradicts himself and says that indeed it is a tax in order to uphold the mandate, because otherwise it would be facially unconstitutional. Is there any decision made by John Roberts that is not pro-corporation?


because he was just making stuff up for the lulz, it's not as if he had reasons for the way he decided or anything
 
2012-06-28 01:39:10 PM  

Biological Ali: Never make analogies again.


laf
 
2012-06-28 01:39:24 PM  

pedobearapproved: I like how this isn't about if the law is a good law and more a an exchange of hand-jobs for "fans" of the winning "side," using the losing "side's" tears for lube.

/if you're one of those people you should probably be ashamed of yourself.


Yeah, it is disturbing. Especially when people should know better that to get caught up in rooting for a team.

I disliked the law, because it is flawed, but the opinion of the court made me feel happy (somewhat)
 
2012-06-28 01:39:52 PM  
The GOP's worst nightmare has come true: somewhere out there a black child dying a horrible death from cancer- will continue to get pain medicine.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:01 PM  

nickerj1: Bungles: If you are born, live, and die in the US, you will use healthcare. It may just be signing off your corpse, but you will.

The amount of people that entirely avoid healthcare of any sort could fit in phonebox.

So you admit: there are individuals that are subject to taxation under Obamacare, which Ginsburg alleges is valid under Commerce clause because ALL individuals are actors in the medical care market, and yet they aren't actors in the medical care market. Namely those individuals that just live in the US and don't use any medical care.

Close2TheEdge: If you are in a car accident, then what? Are you going to mumble to the EMT to give you St Johns Wort while you lie bleeding in the crumpled wreckage?

//Idiot

drewsclues: So, when you collapse in the street (not a threat, but an example) and someone calls the paramedics and they take you to the hospital for treatment, that hospital is NOT going to charge you because you didn't have an opportunity to partcipate in the "free market" of health care. Uh-huh....

Where'd you two get your GED in law from? Fark.com? You're addressing potential ramifications for not having the individual mandate, which is the wrong inquiry. The correct inquiry is whether Congress has the power to create the individual mandate.

As an example of how silly Ginsburg's line of thought is, replace "medical care" with "owning footwear".

"Unlike the market for almost any other product or service, the market for footwear is one in which all individuals inevitably participate." "Virtually every person residing in the United States, sooner or later, will own a piece of footwear." And then Congress has the power to make a law that: requires everyone in the US to prove they own footwear, and fines you if you can't prove you own footwear.

Boom, Congress would now have power to regulate anything that "virtually everyone" uses/does.


The government has an explicit power to levy taxes. This is a tax. End of story.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:04 PM  

ontariolightning: mrshowrules: Rev.K: [www.lackenbauer.ca image 288x414]

Dear America,

I might be dead, but I'm proud of you.

- Tommy Douglas

The greatest Canadian ever. 50 years from now Obama may very well be considered the greatest President ever.

Hes Kiefer Sutherlands I mean Jack Bauers grandpapa


I did not know that. Why do Conservatives hate Jack Bauer?
 
2012-06-28 01:40:07 PM  

RelativeEase: Victory for the poor and healthy, buy something you don't need or pay a tax penalty!!!!


For the 50th time, if you're poor you're probably exempt anyway. Read the bloody law some time.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:12 PM  
CPennypacker: derpdeederp: Good for you Libs, glad you got a win.

Personally, I think it morally wrong to take money from one group of people to pay for anothers benefits, so single payer would have been better in my mind. But we get what we get.

Go team, lol.

Cool story bro. I think its morally wrong to let people die or go into life crushing debt because they can't afford medical care.

Morals are funny.
My Dad has cancer. It's a very aggressive cancer. After the first 3 months of chemo, they just did another pet scan the other day and found out that it is not shrinking... They're not sure what to do now because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for another scan like the first two... And it's costing him alot of the money that worked so hard for all of his life... Average cost is about $5000...
Since your so into all of this, could you please send me $5000 so I can make sure my Dad get's the scan that is deemed proper??? Thanks and glad you saved him..
Looking forward to your donation, lib...
 
2012-06-28 01:40:13 PM  

nyseattitude: sunlion: Somewhere out there, a Republican is loading a weapon, preparing to die of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It's a good day.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out some "conservative" lost their mind and killed a "liberal" over this. Maybe the coworker that is for it and/or an Obama supporter?


I'll be honest, I had a very, very small worry my super conspiratorial, racist, biggest bigot in know, claims to be a pacifist but was bragging bout his brand new gun collection recently, might open fire on the one actual (self proclaimed) socialist we have in our office.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:33 PM  

The Larch: jigger: The Crepes of Wrath: I must be the only one not surprised because the precedent was set decades ago. You're required, via the FICA act, to pay a tax that provides for your own (minimal) retirement fund, as well as other programs (Medicare, benefits for the disabled, etc.). This really isn't significantly different from that.

Are Social Security and Medicare run by private for-profit companies? Will the federal government now withhold money from your paycheck to pay for your health insurance? No and no. So you see, these two things are significantly different.

Oh my gosh! You are the smartest constitutional law scholar in the whole world. It's too bad that you've apparently been in a coma for the last two years and just woke up less than four hours ago, because otherwise you would have had a chance to explain the subtle nuances of your "two things are significantly different" argument to the Supreme Court and they would have ruled differently. You could have changed history!


Thank you for presenting a stunning demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:49 PM  

Lawnchair: RelativeEase: Victory for the poor and healthy, buy something you don't need or pay a tax penalty!!!!

For the 50th time, if you're poor you're probably exempt anyway. Read the bloody law some time.


Why? Congress didn't when they passed it.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:50 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: John Roberts siding with the left wing of the court... MY GOD! THE MAYANS WERE RIGHT!


For the first time ever, I'm actually saying "thank you" to a pub.


On a side note,

Now that it's over, can someone tell me how the mandate to carry auto insurance was any different than the order to carry health insurance?
 
2012-06-28 01:41:00 PM  
Wow. Nice. I am honestly surprized they ruled this way.
 
2012-06-28 01:41:01 PM  
www.hostingbytes.us
 
2012-06-28 01:41:09 PM  

mrshowrules: nyseattitude: Weaver95: nyseattitude: Did BillCo and TenpoundsofDerp die of heart attacks when the announcement was made?

they're probably in a meeting to nail down what the talking points are for the weekend. the GOP group mind is moving rather slow today.

This was my first thought of how they reacted
[mlizcochico.com image 364x300]

This was my second
[www.flicksandbeats.com image 352x288]

I called that the GOP was totally unprepared for this. Literally, the only central GOP directive on this was not to spike the football when they won.


Indeed. I don't recall the thread, but I do recall you saying that.
 
2012-06-28 01:41:46 PM  

qorkfiend: The problem is that people's "choice" to go uninsured was, in many cases, not a "choice" at all, but a necessity dictated by their financial situation. Additionally - and this is the part a lot of people seem to miss - the "choice" to go uninsured was actually a "choice" to have everyone else pay for your emergency room visits (yes yes, you're not sick now, congratulations, that doesn't hold for everyone, and won't hold for you forever).

What you really want is the "choice" to avoid your responsibility and the "choice" to saddle the rest of us with the cost.


The only reason the people are saddled with that cost is because the people chose to allow it. Tada, choice. And the only reason health care costs so much is because the regulation that allows it to even exist as it does. And it will not get cheaper, just more expensive, like my wife's premiums that jump 10-25% per year while coverage goes down.

Other countries have lower healthcare costs because they have things like single payer systems, sane regulations on the industry, consistent pricing, etc. There is no reason that I should be able to go in to a doctors office and pay $200 cash for the same thing they're going to bill my health insurance $2000 for, and then have no required pricing sheet that breaks down cost until after you are obligated to pay for the service(since they tell you they have to wait for insurance to come back with the claim before they can tell you what you owe and then they bill the wrong code or attach it to the wrong doctor in the process and your claim is completely denied because that code or doctor isn't covered by your plan).

All this law is doing is further perpetuating this. Putting more money in the pockets of insurance companies and taking more money out of the pockets of us, even before this tax goes in to place. Give me real reform, not something that makes it worse.
 
2012-06-28 01:41:49 PM  

Alphakronik: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: John Roberts siding with the left wing of the court... MY GOD! THE MAYANS WERE RIGHT!

For the first time ever, I'm actually saying "thank you" to a pub.


On a side note,

Now that it's over, can someone tell me how the mandate to carry auto insurance was any different than the order to carry health insurance?


I believe the current talking point is "B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but... U DON'T HAVE TO DRIVE!11111!!!!!123!1
 
2012-06-28 01:41:49 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: gothelder: Lando Lincoln: I can't afford an aircraft carrier.

I work for Northrop Grumman, we just spun off Huntington-Ingalls, I'll see what I can do about getting you an employee discount, since my support desk still helps em out.

I'd go with an old CVE. Better gas mileage.


I am pretty sure the old carriers used fuel oil that's why the blew up so spectacularly , and I know the new ones we build are nuclear.

I am also pretty mariners do not do things in miles? Fathoms for up and down as I recall, but on the horizontal plane? (never been on anything bigger than a raft)

Also if you have a carrier, why do you need to worry about gas mileage, worse comes to worse you hire Dennis Hopper and horde of unfortunates to row your ass around the seven seas.
 
2012-06-28 01:41:52 PM  
List of People Conspiring Against the GOP, and therefore, America
(LOPCATGOPATA for short):
Liberals
Democrats
Socialists
Community Organizers
Geologists
Biologists
Meteorologists
Climatologists
Atheists
Muslims
Jews
Satan
ABC
NBC
CNN
CBS
PBS
All of cable news except FNC
The New York Times
The LA Times
The Washington Post
The Associated Press
Reuters
BBC
The Guardian
Black People
Mexicans
Human Rights Activists
SCOTUS
Europe
Movie Industry
Television Industry
Environmentalists
ACLU
The United Nations
Labor Unions
Colleges
Teachers
Professors
ACORN
National Endowment for the Arts
Gays
Judges
NPR
Paleontologists
Astrophysicists
Museums (*except Creationism Museum)
WHO
WTO
Inflated tires
The Honolulu Advertiser
The Star Bulletin
Teletubbies
Sponge Bob and Patrick
Nobel Prize Committee
US Census Bureau
NOAA
Sesame Street
Comic Books
Little Green Footballs
Video Games
The Bible
CBO
Bruce Springsteen
Pennies
The Theory of Relativity
Comedy Central
Young People
whatever the hell a Justin Beiber is
Small Business Owners
Math
CPAC
Navy SEALs
The Economist
The Muppets
Iowa Republicans
Low-Flow Toilets
Breast Cancer Screenings
Chrysler
Clint Eastwood.
Robert Deniro
Tom Hanks
Glenn Frey
Norman Rockwell
James Cameron
Dr. Seus
Nuns
Supreme Court Justice John Roberts
 
2012-06-28 01:41:58 PM  
I like how Mitt Romney is coming out against this....
Because, y'know, it's not like he did the same thing for Mass when he was governor.
 
2012-06-28 01:42:04 PM  

intelligent comment below: inner ted: //would love it if the government mandated you had to buy my products.


Open a car insurance company

/waiting for conservatards to cry how that's un-Constitutional as well


your comment fails to live up to your handle.
 
2012-06-28 01:42:08 PM  

Biological Ali: Never make analogies again.


Not allowing people to make make analogies on fark is like not allowing people to drive cars on the sidewalk!
 
2012-06-28 01:42:09 PM  

BobBoxBody: The problem with Obamacare is that it doesn't address the main fundamental issue with healthcare: That it is expensive.


Correct. And it was never supposed to do so. All it's supposed to do is force people to either buy insurance or pay the government.

Same as it ever was...
 
2012-06-28 01:42:23 PM  
So, since the reason it survived was because the fine is considered a tax, will the administration stop insisting it's not a tax?
 
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