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(The Atlantic Wire)   That $2 billion that JP Morgan lost on what its CEO called "stupid, reckless " trades? Yeah, it's looking more like $9+ billion--and JP Morgan has known this since April   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 106
    More: Followup, JPMorgan Chase & Co., CEO  
•       •       •

6934 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2012 at 9:59 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-28 11:07:14 AM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-06-28 11:12:04 AM  
Is it a coincidence that this news breaks on the same day as the Obamacare ruling? What will people pay more attention to?

Just ignore the man behind the curtain.
 
2012-06-28 11:12:20 AM  

vudukungfu: we should hang them on general principals.


Sounds like a painful spot to be hung from.
 
2012-06-28 11:13:05 AM  

roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: So a "worst case scenario" discussed internally in April translates to "it's looking like" in your mind, subby?

What's the worst case scenario for unemployment by the end of the year? 10% lets say if euro completely imploded and something else went wrong? Should we then say that it looks like unemployment will be 10%?

Subby is misleading, but the point of the article was the CEO went in front of Congress and the investors claiming a $2 billion loss that could easily be absorbed and business will continue as normal. Now the info breaks that according to internal documents, the CEO knew well in advance of his testimony that the losses would likely exceed $2 billion and, in fact, could be higher that 4 times as much.

What would happen to you or I if we lied to Congress AND investors? Yet, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Captain America, Colonel Sanders, the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, and Jamie Dimon all go free. Ridiculous.


He didn't lie to congress. At least not based on TFA. The "worst case scenario" in April was supposedly $9 billion. You don't know go far out on the probAbility curve worst case scenario could be. Might have been a 1/200 chance.

Regardless, he went before congress in June and said that he loss could be absorbed and business would continue as usual. Even if it did turn out to be the 9 billion worst case scenario, that's still way less than annual earnings. No reason that it couldn't be absorbed.
 
2012-06-28 11:13:32 AM  

ChipNASA: That's good right??
/I was told there would be no Math.


The 9 billion also comes with a free FroYo.
/Also good.

//Contains Sodium Benzoate
///Thats bad.
 
2012-06-28 11:15:34 AM  
Bankers lied about something? Get the fark outta here.
 
2012-06-28 11:20:43 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: ***snip***

He didn't lie to congress. At least not based on TFA. The "worst case scenario" in April was supposedly $9 billion. You don't know go far out on the probAbility curve worst case scenario could be. Might have been a 1/200 chance.

Regardless, he went before congress in June and said that he loss could be absorbed and business would continue as usual. Even if it did turn out to be the 9 billion worst case scenario, that's still way less than annual earnings. No reason that it couldn't be absorbed.


From this article: JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon defended the company's disclosures of a $2 billion trading loss as regulators and lawmakers questioned whether the largest U.S. bank misled investors.

"We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," Dimon, making his second appearance on Capitol Hill in less than a week, said yesterday at a House Financial Services Committee hearing in Washington that exceeded four hours.


Relevant parts marked.

Step 1: Disclose $2 billion loss to investors, knowing that it could be a high as $9 billion
Step 2: Get called before Congress because you are suspected of misleading investors
Step 3: Tell Congress, "We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," except for the part about the loss maybe getting to $9 billion
Step 4: NOT IN JAIL FOR LYING TO INVESTORS AND CONGRESS
 
2012-06-28 11:22:23 AM  
Whoops, didn't link right. Here it is Link
 
2012-06-28 11:26:31 AM  
I give up. This country is farked.
 
2012-06-28 11:37:39 AM  

dannit724: So JP Morgan lost the money. Who has it now? I've never understood this about investment banking, which seems to assume money just materializes out of thin air.


THIS
 
2012-06-28 11:37:53 AM  
Still none of your business.

And they will likely still be making a profit for their investors over time.

And its 1% of the amount of money in the stimulus package which accomplished nothing more than lining the pockets of prevailing wage construction companies and unions.

AND that stimulus money was actually YOUR money. Given to other people to spend. Literally local governments handed out bonuses to their staff and called it 'jobs saved'. So your money went to make someone Christmas extra juicy that year.

But you go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch over 9 billion dollars in other peoples money. Try to ignore the coincidental vanishment of trillions of dollars in market captial under Obamas regulatory heel. Because you have your little anecdote about JPM that you can recite.
 
2012-06-28 11:49:13 AM  
Just to put this into perspective, for $9 billion you could buy

i.imgur.com

and still have over $2 billion left over.
 
2012-06-28 11:54:45 AM  

roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: ***snip***

He didn't lie to congress. At least not based on TFA. The "worst case scenario" in April was supposedly $9 billion. You don't know go far out on the probAbility curve worst case scenario could be. Might have been a 1/200 chance.

Regardless, he went before congress in June and said that he loss could be absorbed and business would continue as usual. Even if it did turn out to be the 9 billion worst case scenario, that's still way less than annual earnings. No reason that it couldn't be absorbed.

From this article: JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon defended the company's disclosures of a $2 billion trading loss as regulators and lawmakers questioned whether the largest U.S. bank misled investors.

"We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," Dimon, making his second appearance on Capitol Hill in less than a week, said yesterday at a House Financial Services Committee hearing in Washington that exceeded four hours.

Relevant parts marked.

Step 1: Disclose $2 billion loss to investors, knowing that it could be a high as $9 billion
Step 2: Get called before Congress because you are suspected of misleading investors
Step 3: Tell Congress, "We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," except for the part about the loss maybe getting to $9 billion
Step 4: NOT IN JAIL FOR LYING TO INVESTORS AND CONGRESS


I don't know how to explain this to you any more simply. Companies aren't required to disclose the worst case scenarios of any deal or trade they're involved in. They disclosed the $2b when they determined that it was the best estimate of their losses on the trade at that time.

Do you understand that? He disnt lie to congress. Not going to jail is perfectly appropriate if you don't commit a crime.
 
2012-06-28 12:01:39 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: ***snip***

He didn't lie to congress. At least not based on TFA. The "worst case scenario" in April was supposedly $9 billion. You don't know go far out on the probAbility curve worst case scenario could be. Might have been a 1/200 chance.

Regardless, he went before congress in June and said that he loss could be absorbed and business would continue as usual. Even if it did turn out to be the 9 billion worst case scenario, that's still way less than annual earnings. No reason that it couldn't be absorbed.

From this article: JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon defended the company's disclosures of a $2 billion trading loss as regulators and lawmakers questioned whether the largest U.S. bank misled investors.

"We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," Dimon, making his second appearance on Capitol Hill in less than a week, said yesterday at a House Financial Services Committee hearing in Washington that exceeded four hours.

Relevant parts marked.

Step 1: Disclose $2 billion loss to investors, knowing that it could be a high as $9 billion
Step 2: Get called before Congress because you are suspected of misleading investors
Step 3: Tell Congress, "We disclosed what we knew when we knew it," except for the part about the loss maybe getting to $9 billion
Step 4: NOT IN JAIL FOR LYING TO INVESTORS AND CONGRESS

I don't know how to explain this to you any more simply. Companies aren't required to disclose the worst case scenarios of any deal or trade they're involved in. They disclosed the $2b when they determined that it was the best estimate of their losses on the trade at that time.

Do you understand that? He disnt lie to congress. Not going to jail is perfectly appropriate if you don't commit a crime.


Losses of $2 billion - $9 billion falls perfectly into the category of "tempest in a teapot" doesn't it? That was a perfectly honest and forthright way to discuss this issue. Also, the Second World War was a "minor scrap" and the Black Plaque was "some isolated cases of the sniffles".
 
2012-06-28 12:13:41 PM  

roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: So a "worst case scenario" discussed internally in April translates to "it's looking like" in your mind, subby?

What's the worst case scenario for unemployment by the end of the year? 10% lets say if euro completely imploded and something else went wrong? Should we then say that it looks like unemployment will be 10%?

Subby is misleading, but the point of the article was the CEO went in front of Congress and the investors claiming a $2 billion loss that could easily be absorbed and business will continue as normal. Now the info breaks that according to internal documents, the CEO knew well in advance of his testimony that the losses would likely exceed $2 billion and, in fact, could be higher that 4 times as much.

What would happen to you or I if we lied to Congress AND investors? Yet, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Captain America, Colonel Sanders, the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, and Jamie Dimon all go free. Ridiculous.


I remember a big point was made by one of the committee members (a democrat I believe) that Dimon should be sworn in to testify under oath. He was then overruled, no need for Dimon to be under oath, and then they began fellating him in tag teams.
 
2012-06-28 12:54:55 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: ***snip***

***snip***

I don't know how to explain this to you any more simply. Companies aren't required to disclose the worst case scenarios of any deal or trade they're involved in. They disclosed the $2b when they determined that it was the best estimate of their losses on the trade at that time.

Do you understand that? He disnt lie to congress. Not going to jail is perfectly appropriate if you don't commit a crime.


I don't know how to say it more simply to you than:

If a $2 billion dollar loss is your absolute BEST case scenario, you know the 1/200th that you do not want to discuss for a worst case scenario, and a $9 billion loss is a LIKELY OUTCOME, not even your worst case, which you can't even determine do to the complexity of the deal, then by saying you will ONLY lose $2 billion, when you KNOW it is UNLIKELY, you are MISLEADING investors.

//Important parts CaPS LoCKED for CLARIty
 
2012-06-28 12:58:43 PM  

roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: ***snip***

***snip***

I don't know how to explain this to you any more simply. Companies aren't required to disclose the worst case scenarios of any deal or trade they're involved in. They disclosed the $2b when they determined that it was the best estimate of their losses on the trade at that time.

Do you understand that? He disnt lie to congress. Not going to jail is perfectly appropriate if you don't commit a crime.

I don't know how to say it more simply to you than:

If a $2 billion dollar loss is your absolute BEST case scenario, you know the 1/200th that you do not want to discuss for a worst case scenario, and a $9 billion loss is a LIKELY OUTCOME, not even your worst case, which you can't even determine do to the complexity of the deal, then by saying you will ONLY lose $2 billion, when you KNOW it is UNLIKELY, you are MISLEADING investors.

//Important parts CaPS LoCKED for CLARIty


Sorry, I misread, $6-7 Billion loss was most likely, so he only mislead investors and Congress about the loss by 3 to 3.5 times, not 4.5.
 
2012-06-28 01:11:37 PM  
b>hammettman: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: So a "worst case scenario" discussed internally in April translates to "it's looking like" in your mind, subby?

What's the worst case scenario for unemployment by the end of the year? 10% lets say if euro completely imploded and something else went wrong? Should we then say that it looks like unemployment will be 10%?

Subby is misleading, but the point of the article was the CEO went in front of Congress and the investors claiming a $2 billion loss that could easily be absorbed and business will continue as normal. Now the info breaks that according to internal documents, the CEO knew well in advance of his testimony that the losses would likely exceed $2 billion and, in fact, could be higher that 4 times as much.

What would happen to you or I if we lied to Congress AND investors? Yet, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Captain America, Colonel Sanders, the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, and Jamie Dimon all go free. Ridiculous.

I remember a big point was made by one of the committee members (a democrat I believe) that Dimon should be sworn in to testify under oath. He was then overruled, no need for Dimon to be under oath, and then they began fellating him in tag teams.


Funny how that seems to happen when Congress calls up people who are A) big campaign contributors and B) expected to lie through their teeth huh?

Fortunately lying to Congress is still a crime even if you aren't under oath.
 
2012-06-28 01:25:35 PM  

Magorn: Fortunately lying to Congress is still a crime even if you aren't under oath.


It's not lying if you believe it.
 
2012-06-28 01:27:55 PM  
We are all so farked it ain't funny anymore.
 
2012-06-28 01:33:23 PM  

Gumaraid: We are all so farked it ain't funny anymore.


We still have debtors-prison and debtors-slavery to go.
 
2012-06-28 01:34:29 PM  
Must be because of the over-regulation that Republicans are always whining about.
 
2012-06-28 01:42:16 PM  

Magorn: b>hammettman: roc6783: Debeo Summa Credo: So a "worst case scenario" discussed internally in April translates to "it's looking like" in your mind, subby?

What's the worst case scenario for unemployment by the end of the year? 10% lets say if euro completely imploded and something else went wrong? Should we then say that it looks like unemployment will be 10%?

Subby is misleading, but the point of the article was the CEO went in front of Congress and the investors claiming a $2 billion loss that could easily be absorbed and business will continue as normal. Now the info breaks that according to internal documents, the CEO knew well in advance of his testimony that the losses would likely exceed $2 billion and, in fact, could be higher that 4 times as much.

What would happen to you or I if we lied to Congress AND investors? Yet, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Captain America, Colonel Sanders, the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, and Jamie Dimon all go free. Ridiculous.

I remember a big point was made by one of the committee members (a democrat I believe) that Dimon should be sworn in to testify under oath. He was then overruled, no need for Dimon to be under oath, and then they began fellating him in tag teams.

Funny how that seems to happen when Congress calls up people who are A) big campaign contributors and B) expected to lie through their teeth huh?

Fortunately lying to Congress is still a crime even if you aren't under oath.


What was sickening was how much more slobbery love he got from the Democrats in control of the Senate than the Republicans in control of the House.

You really should listen to Matt Taibbi and Yves Smith giving a rundown on various criminal matters related to the banks that Congress conveniently ignored in the questioning.

MATT TAIBBI: The question I wanted to ask is, was, really more about the criminality. I mean, none of the members in either the House or the Senate really got into the issue of all the different offenses that these banks have committed in the last few years. You know, or, an ordinary person, if he commits welfare fraud, never gets a food stamp again in his life.

So given that these banks have systematically and repeatedly committed fraud, repeatedly been caught, you know, in situations like Jefferson County, municipal bid rigging, why should we still give them billions and billions of dollars in emergency lending from the Fed, bailouts, all of this aid from the government? How come there's no consequences for them and there are consequences for ordinary people?


That's from this week's Moyers and Company on PBS.
 
2012-06-28 01:45:31 PM  
Good luck at your new position of Chairmen of the Federal Reserve, Mr. Dimon.
 
2012-06-28 01:51:08 PM  

archichris: Still none of your business.

And they will likely still be making a profit for their investors over time.

And its 1% of the amount of money in the stimulus package which accomplished nothing more than lining the pockets of prevailing wage construction companies and unions.

AND that stimulus money was actually YOUR money. Given to other people to spend. Literally local governments handed out bonuses to their staff and called it 'jobs saved'. So your money went to make someone Christmas extra juicy that year.

But you go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch over 9 billion dollars in other peoples money. Try to ignore the coincidental vanishment of trillions of dollars in market captial under Obamas regulatory heel. Because you have your little anecdote about JPM that you can recite.


+1
 
2012-06-28 01:56:46 PM  
 
2012-06-28 02:08:02 PM  

Barricaded Gunman: If we're going to quibble over ever $7 billion discrepancy on this, we're never going to get anything done.


And if we keep picking on this key JOB CREATOR we will never dig our way out of this hole!
 
2012-06-28 02:12:16 PM  
Wall Street = other people gambling with your money with their cut covered by insurance.
 
ezs
2012-06-28 02:45:39 PM  

Sabyen91: Orgasmatron138: Oooh, the CEO will be called on the carpet to have his ass kissed again.

His ass must smell like roses.


There once was a man name of Taylor Dimon
Who's arsehole smelled like a dahlia
Tuppence a smell
Was all very well
But thruppence a lick was a failure
 
2012-06-28 03:06:01 PM  

TheShadow: They've lost nearly 9 months worth of their income. Huge tragedy.


Yep, and if they were not paying off the government they may get into real trouble.
 
2012-06-28 03:07:23 PM  
Actually there's some estimates that say the losses are as high as $20 billion AND CLIMBING as they haven't even closed out all of these positions yet.
 
2012-06-28 03:09:39 PM  

Sabyen91: Jamie Dimon should be in jail.




The sad thing is that instead of prison, he might replace Tim Geithner as the next Secretary of the Treasury.
 
2012-06-28 04:23:47 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: So when is Dimon going to be charged with fraud for his lies to investors to protect his position and pay package?


My guess is right around the time that Zooey Deschanel shows up at my front door naked and begs me to ravish her. So yeah, any time now.
 
2012-06-28 04:27:30 PM  

Zombalupagus: Just to put this into perspective, for $9 billion you could buy

[i.imgur.com image 305x260]

and still have over $2 billion left over.


How much is that in really, really small violins?
 
2012-06-28 04:45:29 PM  

Goodfella: Sabyen91: Jamie Dimon should be in jail.



The sad thing is that instead of prison, he might replace Tim Geithner as the next Secretary of the Treasury.


It's weird. These jobs require pushing it to the line where either they go to the slammer or wind up in a position of greater authority.
 
2012-06-28 06:03:16 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Goodfella: Sabyen91: Jamie Dimon should be in jail.



The sad thing is that instead of prison, he might replace Tim Geithner as the next Secretary of the Treasury.

It's weird. These jobs require pushing it to the line where either they go to the slammer or wind up in a position of greater authority.


The government is full of people who fail upwards.
 
2012-06-28 06:04:41 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: So when is Dimon going to be charged with fraud for his lies to investors to protect his position and pay package?


As soon as his company's checks to congressmen start bouncing.
 
2012-06-28 06:18:33 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: If only we had destroyed Social Security and put our social safety net into their capable hands when Bush wanted us to!


Did you ever here about this gem?

The change in the investment strategy, which would put 45 percent of the agency's funds into stocks, 45 percent into bonds, and 10 percent into private equities and real estate, is just getting started. The portfolio now has about 30 percent in equities, and less than 2 percent in real estate or private equity.

They already tried it at PBGC. I'm really interested to see their returns after the portfolio rebalancing.
 
2012-06-28 06:56:17 PM  
It may seem like a lot, but this 9 billion dollar loss has to be considered in context. Their losing 11 billion dollars is not significant compared to their total portfolio. Compared to the entire market, their 15 billion dollar loss is hardly worth mentioning. If was the US government, and not JP Morgan, that lost the 18 billion dollars, it wouldn't even make the news. After all, it is only 25 billion dollars we are talking about.
 
2012-06-28 07:25:11 PM  
From a CNBC article this afternoon:



Toward the end of May, as part of an ongoing and frequent assessment of risk, JP Morgan traders and risk officers at one point prepared a worst-case scenario analysis that pegged the CIO losses at as high as $9 billion, if the credit index positions were slow and expensive to exit. But since then, say multiple people familiar with the process, JP Morgan has successfully sold about 70 percent of its CDX IG-9 exposure, taking advantage of spikes in the trading volume in the index in the first and third weeks of June, among other opportunities, that allowed it to pare down its exposure.
 
2012-06-28 07:52:08 PM  
Soooo, he converted the $9 bil into fifties and heated his home with last winter? That kind of lost? Because otherwise that money is alive and well somewhere and in someone's account.

/ my guess is that someone is a farking bastard
 
2012-06-28 08:13:01 PM  

Holfax: It may seem like a lot, but this 9 billion dollar loss has to be considered in context. Their losing 11 billion dollars is not significant compared to their total portfolio. Compared to the entire market, their 15 billion dollar loss is hardly worth mentioning. If was the US government, and not JP Morgan, that lost the 18 billion dollars, it wouldn't even make the news. After all, it is only 25 billion dollars we are talking about.


Nice play.
 
2012-06-28 08:19:34 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Goodfella: Sabyen91: Jamie Dimon should be in jail.



The sad thing is that instead of prison, he might replace Tim Geithner as the next Secretary of the Treasury.

It's weird. These jobs require pushing it to the line where either they go to the slammer or wind up in a position of greater authority.




dailybail.com


Max Keiser just said it best: Jamie Dimon is the biggest thief of them all. So in a country like America that rewards its corporate criminals, when he walks into a room he's like a rock star.
 
2012-06-28 08:32:41 PM  

dannit724: So JP Morgan lost the money. Who has it now? I've never understood this about investment banking, which seems to assume money just materializes out of thin air.


milk man don't care where you got that money.
baker don't care where you got that money.
and when you control a investment vehicle that flops
they won't care where your money is coming from either
 
2012-06-28 08:40:41 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
Just hold a few fundraisers for Obama. You'll be fine.
 
2012-06-28 10:11:51 PM  
The institutions may be "too big to fail" but nobody is too big to put into stocks and publicly flogged to within an inch of their lives, not even C level executives at investment banks.
 
2012-06-29 12:01:16 AM  

Eapoe6: JP Morgan Chase is insolvent. They are drown on junk derivatives and fraud.

9 billion? Stop this foolishness, and let them fail. They won't be so big once they fail.


Look at how stupid you are!
 
2012-06-29 01:28:26 AM  
Hey, I thought this was a Christian nation.


Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can not serve both God and Mammon.
-Matthew 6:19-21,24

Oh wait...
 
2012-06-29 01:35:30 AM  
No wonder it took them six days to put the money back in my account after somebody made a fraudulent charge on my debit card - they didn't have it either.

farkers. I'm moving to a local credit union.
 
2012-06-29 01:49:05 AM  

archichris: And its 1% of the amount of money in the stimulus package which accomplished nothing more than lining the pockets of prevailing wage construction companies and unions.



citation needed
 
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