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(MSNBC)   For the first time in 100 years, American cities are growing faster than suburbs. McMansion owners, HOAs, PTA parents inconsolable   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 223
    More: Interesting, McMansions, american cities, Columbine High School, high-rise apartment, Littleton, residential development, transit hub, New York Federal Reserve  
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3648 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2012 at 12:00 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-28 11:42:44 AM
That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"
 
2012-06-28 12:02:00 PM
When unemployment is high, people move to population centers to seek work.
 
2012-06-28 12:02:16 PM
Erma Bombeck covered this back in 1958.
 
2012-06-28 12:03:07 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


That's exactly the opposite of what they said on the news today. They said the younger generation can't afford the big mortgage in the suburbs (and the associated costs) so they are moving into the cities because it is much cheaper.
 
2012-06-28 12:03:22 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


It's certainly becoming the case in the twin cities. Minneapolis/Saint Paul have been adding or renovating high incoming condos and apartments whereas the surrounding suburbs are at least on par, if not cheaper to live in.

Though I wouldn't use the term riff raff
 
2012-06-28 12:04:13 PM
Logan's Run seemed so improbable when it was released.
 
2012-06-28 12:05:31 PM
I would like to see all well to do people living in the cities anyway
 
2012-06-28 12:07:02 PM
There's also the amenities of cities. Population density amortizes the costs of infrastructure, even as commercial property becomes more expensive, it correspondingly gets more profitable for the renters, meaning more and more interesting shopping/eating destinations, and so on.

Also, never needing to use a car is a bonus.

//I love living in a city.
 
2012-06-28 12:07:33 PM
PTA Parents?

they don't have PTA in the City?

By the way, what is wrong with the PTA?

The PTA in our area just bought 25 tablets and 100 smart boards for the local schools in the last year.
 
2012-06-28 12:07:36 PM
I can still rent cheaper in the burbs than I can in NYC. Though there is no getting around that the burbs kind of suck.
 
2012-06-28 12:07:44 PM
It'd be pretty simple to eradicate homelessness. Everyone is required to purchase a home and if you choose not to, then you are taxed 10% of your income. That money is then used to purchase homes for people who can't afford them. Those people will then take wonderful, white glove care of those houses, require no further assistance from the government. They will not turn them into chronic money-pits simply because they know the government safety net will supply them with additional housing after they've burned this motherfarker to the ground.
 
2012-06-28 12:09:23 PM

spentmiles: It'd be pretty simple to eradicate homelessness. Everyone is required to purchase a home and if you choose not to, then you are taxed 10% of your income. That money is then used to purchase homes for people who can't afford them. Those people will then take wonderful, white glove care of those houses, require no further assistance from the government. They will not turn them into chronic money-pits simply because they know the government safety net will supply them with additional housing after they've burned this motherfarker to the ground.


...you're right. We should let the homeless die in the streets like rats.
 
2012-06-28 12:10:28 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities.


enterthelaughter.com

Not amused at the derogatory use of his name.
 
2012-06-28 12:11:13 PM
I was born in a small town.
 
2012-06-28 12:12:58 PM

spentmiles: It'd be pretty simple to eradicate homelessness. Everyone is required to purchase a home and if you choose not to, then you are taxed 10% of your income. That money is then used to purchase homes for people who can't afford them. Those people will then take wonderful, white glove care of those houses, require no further assistance from the government. They will not turn them into chronic money-pits simply because they know the government safety net will supply them with additional housing after they've burned this motherfarker to the ground.


0/1 too obvious
 
2012-06-28 12:12:58 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


from Wiki: Prince George's County is a county located in the U.S. state of Maryland, immediately north, east, and south of Washington, DC. As of 2010, it has a population of 863,420 and is the wealthiest African-American majority county in the nation.[1][2]

also: The median income for a household in the county in 2008 was $71,696,[24] and the median income for a family was $81,908. The 2008 mean income for a family in the county was $94,360. As of 2000, males had a median income of $38,904 versus $35,718 for females. The 2008 per capita income for the county was $23,360. About 4.70% of families and 7.40% of the population were below the poverty line, including 9.2% of those under age 18 and 7.1% of those age 65 or over. Prince George's County is the 70th most affluent county in the United States by median income for families and the most affluent county in the United States with an African-American majority. Almost 38.8% of all households in Prince George's County, earned over $100,000 in 2008.[25]

Oh wow, what a shiathole!
 
2012-06-28 12:13:38 PM
Your average hipster who holds a low-to-mid-income job (or is still looking for one) can't buy a goddamned suburban house. And why would they want to? You definitely don't want to ride your fixie for three hours just to visit the Korean-Mexican fusion food truck before tonight's five-band local musician concert at Old Tyme Slum Bar & Music Hall.
 
2012-06-28 12:13:42 PM

IlGreven: spentmiles: It'd be pretty simple to eradicate homelessness. Everyone is required to purchase a home and if you choose not to, then you are taxed 10% of your income. That money is then used to purchase homes for people who can't afford them. Those people will then take wonderful, white glove care of those houses, require no further assistance from the government. They will not turn them into chronic money-pits simply because they know the government safety net will supply them with additional housing after they've burned this motherfarker to the ground.

...you're right. We should let the homeless die in the streets like rats.


How's about me make it easy for them to get medical care and job assistance? Like.. giving them an address to receive some mail at/ teaching them how to scrub reactor walls.
 
2012-06-28 12:14:03 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


Hey, you're giving people a bad name associating them with ...
mtv.mtvnimages.com
 
2012-06-28 12:16:14 PM

IHadMeAVision: Oh wow, what a shiathole!


It's misleading. Everyone knows PG County is shiat. Montgomery County is where the magic happens.
 
2012-06-28 12:17:32 PM

IHadMeAVision: Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"

from Wiki: Prince George's County is a county located in the U.S. state of Maryland, immediately north, east, and south of Washington, DC. As of 2010, it has a population of 863,420 and is the wealthiest African-American majority county in the nation.[1][2]

also: The median income for a household in the county in 2008 was $71,696,[24] and the median income for a family was $81,908. The 2008 mean income for a family in the county was $94,360. As of 2000, males had a median income of $38,904 versus $35,718 for females. The 2008 per capita income for the county was $23,360. About 4.70% of families and 7.40% of the population were below the poverty line, including 9.2% of those under age 18 and 7.1% of those age 65 or over. Prince George's County is the 70th most affluent county in the United States by median income for families and the most affluent county in the United States with an African-American majority. Almost 38.8% of all households in Prince George's County, earned over $100,000 in 2008.[25]

Oh wow, what a shiathole!


It is a shiathole. And it is dangerous. Go visit, rather than cutting/pasting Wiki. You'll see.
 
2012-06-28 12:18:29 PM

IHadMeAVision: Oh wow, what a shiathole!


It is compared to the next door neighbors:

In 2008, Montgomery County was the second richest county in terms of per capita income in the state of Maryland and 13th richest in the United States, with a median household income of $92,213.[5][6]
 
2012-06-28 12:18:53 PM
So based on population? Makes sense. More renters in the city and that's the thing to do now, not home ownership. My line of work has been converting a lot of industrial inner city buildings to actual apartments. Seems to be a trend.
 
2012-06-28 12:19:54 PM

emarche: It is a shiathole. And it is dangerous. Go visit, rather than cutting/pasting Wiki. You'll see.


We get it. Black people live there.
 
2012-06-28 12:20:07 PM

thecpt: So based on population? Makes sense. More renters in the city and that's the thing to do now, not home ownership. My line of work has been converting a lot of industrial inner city buildings to actual apartments. Seems to be a trend.


Cities can be made very human and humane. Suburbs have a kind of enforced sterility on them.
 
2012-06-28 12:21:03 PM
My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.
 
Ehh
2012-06-28 12:26:14 PM
'bout time. The burbs suck.
 
2012-06-28 12:26:22 PM

Walker: If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill Maryland say "HELL TO THE NO!"

 
2012-06-28 12:26:35 PM

jaytkay: emarche: It is a shiathole. And it is dangerous. Go visit, rather than cutting/pasting Wiki. You'll see.

We get it. Black people live there.


http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Gang-Membership-High-in-Princ e -Georges-County-133883683.html

"By the FBI's count, Prince George's County has 7,131 residents associated with gangs. That's second only to Miami-Dade County, in the FBI's list of counties with the largest number of gang members in the southeast."
 
PJ-
2012-06-28 12:28:48 PM

emarche: jaytkay: emarche: It is a shiathole. And it is dangerous. Go visit, rather than cutting/pasting Wiki. You'll see.

We get it. Black people live there.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Gang-Membership-High-in-Princ e -Georges-County-133883683.html

"By the FBI's count, Prince George's County has 7,131 residents associated with gangs. That's second only to Miami-Dade County, in the FBI's list of counties with the largest number of gang members in the southeast."


Why do you need to re-enforce a point that has already been accepted. When black people get into large groups, they are called gangs. Well, unless you have a couple on a tandem bicycle, then it's called organized crime.
 
2012-06-28 12:28:56 PM
No shiat people aren't moving to the suburbs!

The girl in the article mentions her parents' commute. Her parents probably did their commuting in the 80s or 90s when gas prices were MUCH lower (yeah, I know, they took the train in TFA). Didn't cost someone an arm and a leg to fill up their car then. Add to that urban decay of those years, the crack epidemic and gang violence and most people have fled the cities to avoid the "scary minorities".

So what changed? Gas is 3.40/gal and spikes up to 4.50/gal at times. Also consider that it was the mortgage crisis that put us in this palooke in the first place. I'm sure the >30 crowd has LOTS of trust in banks and the government now. Saving all your money and investing in a house and it loses 20-60% of its value because some banker found out how to package debt and make money off of it? Piss off. The suburbanites who choose to live in the 'burbs usually already had a job before picking their house. With so many of my generation who can't find a job coming out of college, how the fark are we supposed to afford a house, much less a commute? Add to that the damage to the environment and general blandness of the suburbs and its no surprise that this article is true.

Even personally, I have no desire to live in the suburbs. If I have that much money and I feel like I want some land, I would rather buy a house in the mountains to go fishing/vacation. Why spend 300k+ on a house you pretty much never see when working a 55 hr workweek with a 2 hr commute?
 
2012-06-28 12:29:26 PM
Where are these suburbs with no restaurants?
 
2012-06-28 12:31:27 PM

LandOfChocolate: Walker: If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill Maryland say "HELL TO THE NO!"


Right back at you, Virginia. Hell, even Shirlington is like a goddamn day trip. Northern Virginia is disgustingly car-centric.
 
2012-06-28 12:32:32 PM
If you grew up in the suburbs, you feel dead inside until you move away/go to college.
 
2012-06-28 12:32:42 PM
FTFA: "Primary cities in large metropolitan areas with populations of more than 1 million grew by 1.1 percent last year, compared with 0.9 percent in surrounding suburbs."

Wow, that is a stunning rate of growth. No wonder there's a story about it. And a quote from a young person who will change her mind once she figures out how much a home that will accommodate a family costs in a major city, plus how very shiatty the schools are there. She and her husband will either have to make enough money to buy a house and send their kids to private school, or they'll move to the 'burbs.
 
2012-06-28 12:32:46 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Where are these suburbs with no restaurants?


i1057.photobucket.com

This is not a restaurant, it's an assisted suicide clinic.
 
2012-06-28 12:33:44 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Where are these suburbs with no restaurants in walking distance?


That would be all of them, pretty much. I can't even count the number of restaurants within a short walk of my house. Yes, I own a house. In a city. Because in residential neighborhoods, it's surprisingly affordable. Many of my neighbors have yards, because the idea that cities are concrete from horizon to horizon is also bullshiat.

Yes, you can get more land and more house for the same money in the suburbs. And if you need a 5-bedroom house on 10 acres of land, then yes, you really shouldn't be living in a city. But not everyone needs that kind of space (my house, at 1,300sq. ft. is a few hundred square feet larger than I'd like).
 
2012-06-28 12:35:07 PM

Eapoe6: Logan's Run seemed so improbable when it was released.


All I remember is Jenny Agutter's perky nips from the ice cave.

I'm pretty sure that kick-started puberty.
 
2012-06-28 12:35:40 PM
Perhaps people are realizing that driving 3 hours a day with the rest of the world to work 40 hours a week means you are giving up 15 hours a week of life without compensation.

So you move in town and get 13 hours a week back, which only cost you the price of downsizing to what you could afford near the office. That's 13 hours less frustration with traffic, or time spent on projects, or time spent with family. And now you live near a good park, so the fact you don't have a yard to pointlessly care for just so the kids can play by themselves doesn't impact you.

And actually, after a little work with Zillow, I'd say that an upper middle class family living in the pisspot that is Little Elm or the Californian refugee camp that is Frisco could move into a good part of North Dallas for the same price as their current McMansion.

Little Elm embodies one of my chief complaints about how things work; for the longest time they had two lanes heading towards Dallas, one lane back. You know, because getting the masses to work on time was more important than getting them home.
 
2012-06-28 12:36:47 PM
Let's hope the trend continues. Gas prices should keep going up so the outlook is good.
 
2012-06-28 12:37:55 PM
PG County? That is where the black people live!

/it is mostly shiatty. But there are good parts.
//lives in Baltimore, same thing.
 
2012-06-28 12:38:05 PM

Rapmaster2000: My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.


We're actually looking to do the reverse. Been living in the 'burbs too long. Everything we like to do is in town, which means a gnarly commute, especially if drinking is going to be involved. Everything out here is nice, quiet, and we don't have to worry about somebody knicking our stuff, but there is NOTHING to do but stay home or go to a fern bar for crappy drinks served in little sand buckets or lava lamps.

Hard to find a place in town with a big enough garage/parking area for two cars and three bikes though.
 
2012-06-28 12:39:46 PM

The Southern Logic Company:
Even personally, I have no desire to live in the suburbs. If I have that much money and I feel like I want some land, I would rather buy a house in the mountains to go fishing/vacation. Why spend 300k+ on a house you pretty much never see when working a 55 hr workweek with a 2 hr commute?


POS houses around me cost 500k (north of NYC). If I bought one in a decent town in central PA where I'm from it would only be 250k. An ok house here is easily one million, but sadly this is where the work is. Yeah, pardon me but I just got out of college. I'd rather live in a POS apartment and live with a 5 minute commute rather than a POS house identical to all the others with an hour long commute. There is literally no reason to own a house for me, and there won't be until i'm 35.
 
2012-06-28 12:39:58 PM
I still can't understand how people think it's a good thing to overcrowd a city.

I would never live in a city simply because of cost and I really don't like being around that many people. Noise. All. The. Time.
 
2012-06-28 12:40:21 PM
We live just outside the city center of (mid-size Florida metropolis). We'd totally move downtown, now that amenities such as a grocery store and theatre have returned, if it weren't for the drunken meat-market atmosphere, and the abusive homeless which haunt the streets at night.
 
2012-06-28 12:40:34 PM

wildcardjack: That's 13 hours less frustration with traffic, or time spent on projects, or time spent with family


I spend, in total, about an hour a day commuting, all within the city. I could probably streamline this, but that's time spent walking, sitting on a bus reading a book, doing some photography, and maybe a little light shopping. My commute is me time, not a slog through traffic to get to and from work.
 
2012-06-28 12:41:23 PM

boogie_down: DrewCurtisJr: Where are these suburbs with no restaurants?

[i1057.photobucket.com image 400x400]

This is not a restaurant, it's an assisted suicide clinic.


Of all of the options available for committing suicide, that doesn't look like a bad one. Beats the hell out of shiatting your pants at the end of a rope.
 
2012-06-28 12:43:12 PM
We live in the burbs now, but I'd actually like to move further out to the outskirts. More room, more land, and more quiet. I still like the city for activities, but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!
 
2012-06-28 12:43:28 PM

Tat'dGreaser: Noise. All. The. Time.


I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my exceedingly quiet city neighborhood. Oh, wait, there goes the ear-splitting racket of a car driving by at 10MPH. That happens once every hour or so. Maybe.

I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.

Tat'dGreaser: I still can't understand how people think it's a good thing to overcrowd a city.


Most cities in the US are well beneath their capacity. We're still recovering from the White Flight era.
 
2012-06-28 12:44:00 PM

t3knomanser: That would be all of them, pretty much. I can't even count the number of restaurants within a short walk of my house. Yes, I own a house. In a city. Because in residential neighborhoods, it's surprisingly affordable. Many of my neighbors have yards, because the idea that cities are concrete from horizon to horizon is also bullshiat.

Yes, you can get more land and more house for the same money in the suburbs. And if you need a 5-bedroom house on 10 acres of land, then yes, you really shouldn't be living in a city. But not everyone needs that kind of space (my house, at 1,300sq. ft. is a few hundred square feet larger than I'd like).



Amen. I live in a 2200 sq ft duplex five minutes from downtown seattle. We occupy 1400 sq ft of that duplex and have an entire room we don't use, even after 10 years. 6,000 sq ft lot and a 2 car garage. But it feels like an estate to me. I can walk to the movies, the grocery store, the coffee shop, and no fewer than 10 thai restaurants. Three miles to the gym on a bike path. Oh, and my office is across the street from my house. Y'all go on and get your big house in the suburbs and I sincerely hope you enjoy filling that farker up. Me, the older I get the less shiat I want to be honest.
 
2012-06-28 12:44:21 PM

verbaltoxin: but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!


Well, I'm in my thirties. I'll keep my eye open for the symptoms of being old, and try and seek early treatment.
 
2012-06-28 12:44:23 PM
Here in Chattanooga, I remember when Brainerd was safe and Downtown was dangerous.
 
2012-06-28 12:46:39 PM

t3knomanser: wildcardjack: That's 13 hours less frustration with traffic, or time spent on projects, or time spent with family

I spend, in total, about an hour a day commuting, all within the city. I could probably streamline this, but that's time spent walking, sitting on a bus reading a book, doing some photography, and maybe a little light shopping. My commute is me time, not a slog through traffic to get to and from work.


That must be nice to enjoy going about. Mean while it's going to be 110F tomorrow...
 
2012-06-28 12:46:45 PM

Kuroshin: Rapmaster2000: My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.

We're actually looking to do the reverse. Been living in the 'burbs too long. Everything we like to do is in town, which means a gnarly commute, especially if drinking is going to be involved. Everything out here is nice, quiet, and we don't have to worry about somebody knicking our stuff, but there is NOTHING to do but stay home or go to a fern bar for crappy drinks served in little sand buckets or lava lamps.

Hard to find a place in town with a big enough garage/parking area for two cars and three bikes though.


I have a few friends who did that. They moved out there and then moved back. If you don't have kids then really there's no point in moving out there. I got a suburban apartment straight out of college and lived in it for one year. Now, that sucks. Being single and away from anything fun to do is killer. Especially after you spent the previous four years partying every day.

I do have one 40 something male friend out in the burbs and he says having sex with divorcees at suburban bars is about the easiest thing in the world. So there's always that though.
 
2012-06-28 12:47:16 PM

t3knomanser: verbaltoxin: but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!

Well, I'm in my thirties. I'll keep my eye open for the symptoms of being old, and try and seek early treatment.


Admittedly, if I can ever convince my wife to move, I'd relocate to the Twin Cities and have a house w/in city limits there. I like being able to walk/cab to Matt's or Cecil's. I'm flexible really. I just like the two extremes: the extreme quiet and openness of being in the sticks, or the compactness and convenience of a city. The suburbs are a very crappy in-between.
 
2012-06-28 12:47:43 PM

lewismarktwo: That must be nice to enjoy going about. Mean while it's going to be 110F tomorrow


Don't worry, come winter I'll be enjoying 10F weather. The joys/perils of the Northeast.

I just spent a few days in Denver. 110F was surprisingly not terrible there, if you could stay out of the sun.
 
2012-06-28 12:48:42 PM

emarche: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Gang-Membership-High-in-Princ e -Georges-County-133883683.html

"By the FBI's count, Prince George's County has 7,131 residents associated with gangs. That's second only to Miami-Dade County, in the FBI's list of counties with the largest number of gang members in the southeast."


Hell, out here in Frederick we have MS13. They pretty much just stay on the west side of town though.
 
2012-06-28 12:49:25 PM

t3knomanser: I spend, in total, about an hour a day commuting, all within the city. I could probably streamline this, but that's time spent walking, sitting on a bus reading a book, doing some photography, and maybe a little light shopping. My commute is me time, not a slog through traffic to get to and from work.


Farkers, please ignore t3knomanser; he's a little crazy from breathing the carbon monoxide fumes. Cities are overcrowded, dangerous, filthy and expensive. Trust me, you don't want to live in one. For the love of god, stay away.
 
2012-06-28 12:50:38 PM

t3knomanser: I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.


You have tuned out all the little background noises.
The hum coming from AC, from power lines, and the general city stuff.
I will say that the burbs (especially the newer ones) aren't much better.

I recently spent a few days working on a rental property that I have in a semi-rural area... even with the trains every hour or so, it's quieter... well, quite isn't' really the right word... differently noisy is better... frogdam birds make quite a racket.
 
2012-06-28 12:50:46 PM

dragonchild: t3knomanser: I spend, in total, about an hour a day commuting, all within the city. I could probably streamline this, but that's time spent walking, sitting on a bus reading a book, doing some photography, and maybe a little light shopping. My commute is me time, not a slog through traffic to get to and from work.

Farkers, please ignore t3knomanser; he's a little crazy from breathing the carbon monoxide fumes. Cities are overcrowded, dangerous, filthy and expensive. Trust me, you don't want to live in one. For the love of god, stay away.


What you did there, I see it.
 
2012-06-28 12:51:26 PM
It's hardly surprising:
Gas is expensive.
Traffic is only getting worse.
Crime is way down and falling.
Petty racism isn't driving flight like it used to.
The idea that homes are always a good investment has been exposed as fantasy.

I wouldn't bet on the suburban market picking back up again any time soon.
It's going to be a long slow crawl, helped only as they transition to featuring transportation hubs and more small town/urbanist enclaves, rather than cul-de-sac neighborhoods and massive yards. Those things won't go away, mind you. They have their appeal and market. There's just more than enough of them built and zoned already. New development will go largely in the new direction.
 
2012-06-28 12:51:35 PM

halfof33: PTA Parents?

they don't have PTA in the City?

By the way, what is wrong with the PTA?

The PTA in our area just bought 25 tablets and 100 smart boards for the local schools in the last year.


You should know by now that that the only good parent to the internet is a dead parent
 
2012-06-28 12:52:08 PM

t3knomanser: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my exceedingly quiet city neighborhood. Oh, wait, there goes the ear-splitting racket of a car driving by at 10MPH. That happens once every hour or so. Maybe.

I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.


Every single city I've been in, including Pittsburgh, has been loud. If you live on the outskirts of Pittsburgh then you really don't actually live in Pittsburgh, you live in a suburb.

Most cities in the US are well beneath their capacity. We're still recovering from the White Flight era.

That's because there are blocks of abandoned buildings. Look, I like the suburbs. There is so much to do here and I can see the country with just a short 5 minute drive.
 
2012-06-28 12:52:42 PM

Sticky Hands: You have tuned out all the little background noises.


No, honestly, where I live is dead silent. Yeah, if I step outside, I can hear some city noise, but inside my house? Nothing. Aside from my AC, which is louder than shiat- I haven't tuned that out, believe me. I wish. But a loud AC isn't a city problem.
 
2012-06-28 12:54:43 PM

verbaltoxin: t3knomanser: verbaltoxin: but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!

Well, I'm in my thirties. I'll keep my eye open for the symptoms of being old, and try and seek early treatment.

Admittedly, if I can ever convince my wife to move, I'd relocate to the Twin Cities and have a house w/in city limits there. I like being able to walk/cab to Matt's or Cecil's. I'm flexible really. I just like the two extremes: the extreme quiet and openness of being in the sticks, or the compactness and convenience of a city. The suburbs are a very crappy in-between.


I really like the old neighborhoods in the cities. Where my mom lives is a perfect example. She has a nice old house with a huge back yard. But it is within walking distance of the downtown area. I would love to have something like that...but I also know that i'll never be able to afford it in San Diego. If i ever want to buy something odds are i'll have to move somewhere else. suburbs or to a different city.
 
2012-06-28 12:55:14 PM
Well, duh! With the job market like it is, married people with families -- those who prefer the burbs to the city -- are staying put. But young people move to the city, looking for opportunity and adventure. Obviously, living in the city, where they are within walking or a short bus ride of so many activities, is going to appeal to them. When the economy turns around, this trend will reverse itself. But young singles are still going to prefer the city to the burbs.
 
2012-06-28 12:55:15 PM
I'll think about this from my pool...in my 1/4 acre backyard with the fort and swingset for the kids... and the nice covered patio with lots of trees and green grass...yeah the suburbs....what a shiathole.

All for way less than 175K in a good neighborhood 30min from the city on a regular day. Besides the commute is not a total waste. Listen to podcasts or music or even the friggin' radio. I drive sensibly and find the commute to be somewhat relaxing. Its quiet, alone time.
 
2012-06-28 12:55:30 PM
verbaltoxin 2012-06-28 12:43:12 PM

We live in the burbs now, but I'd actually like to move further out to the outskirts. More room, more land, and more quiet. I still like the city for activities, but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!


THIS.

After a decade of living in the most urbanized/crowded areas in the country, I can honestly say it got real old in the end. Especially once you get hitched and you are thinking about having kids.
 
2012-06-28 12:55:39 PM

Tat'dGreaser: t3knomanser: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my exceedingly quiet city neighborhood. Oh, wait, there goes the ear-splitting racket of a car driving by at 10MPH. That happens once every hour or so. Maybe.

I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.

Every single city I've been in, including Pittsburgh, has been loud. If you live on the outskirts of Pittsburgh then you really don't actually live in Pittsburgh, you live in a suburb.

Most cities in the US are well beneath their capacity. We're still recovering from the White Flight era.

That's because there are blocks of abandoned buildings. Look, I like the suburbs. There is so much to do here and I can see the country with just a short 5 minute drive.


Eh, I'm gonna disagree on the whole, "there is so much to do here." Yes I can be well on my way to a Nebraska City orchard w/in minutes, but my suburb has a Target and a bunch of chains. Albeit it's not without its neat spots. We have the only meadery in the state and a taco truck which is quite good. Still not a lot though.
 
2012-06-28 12:55:45 PM

verbaltoxin: I'm flexible really. I just like the two extremes: the extreme quiet and openness of being in the sticks, or the compactness and convenience of a city. The suburbs are a very crappy in-between.


I'm right there with you. If I do leave the city... it ain't gonna be for the burbs. It'll be for the deep sticks or a foreign land.
 
2012-06-28 12:56:40 PM
Suck it, non-urbanites.
 
2012-06-28 12:56:47 PM

verbaltoxin: Eh, I'm gonna disagree on the whole, "there is so much to do here." Yes I can be well on my way to a Nebraska City orchard w/in minutes, but my suburb has a Target and a bunch of chains. Albeit it's not without its neat spots. We have the only meadery in the state and a taco truck which is quite good. Still not a lot though.


I did not mean that every single suburban town was exactly the same.
 
2012-06-28 12:57:50 PM

t3knomanser:
I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.


People don't drive down your block at 3 in the morning blasting reggaeton or hip-hop loud enough to set off all the car alarms, none of which can be turned off because people generally have to park a block away from their homes so then you gotta wait a full five minutes to fall back asleep? Psssh, what kinda city is that?
 
2012-06-28 12:58:30 PM

blank_czech: I'll think about this from my pool...in my 1/4 acre backyard with the fort and swingset for the kids... and the nice covered patio with lots of trees and green grass...yeah the suburbs....what a shiathole.

All for way less than 175K in a good neighborhood 30min from the city on a regular day. Besides the commute is not a total waste. Listen to podcasts or music or even the friggin' radio. I drive sensibly and find the commute to be somewhat relaxing. Its quiet, alone time.


I'm a happy suburbanite, too. I'll try to console myself with my copious space, and the grass and trees and whatnot.

I will say that I wish I had spent some time in a city when I was younger, but it would be for the novelty, not because the lifestyle is appealing in the long term.

I used to have a 45 minute commute to work. I used the time on my way in to plan my day, sort my thoughts, etc. On the way home, I used it to debrief and set the work day aside so I could enjoy my evening. I LOVED my drive time.
 
2012-06-28 01:00:15 PM

IHadMeAVision: t3knomanser:
I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.


People don't drive down your block at 3 in the morning blasting reggaeton or hip-hop loud enough to set off all the car alarms, none of which can be turned off because people generally have to park a block away from their homes so then you gotta wait a full five minutes to fall back asleep? Psssh, what kinda city is that?


haha anymore when I hear a car alarm going off I pray that someone is stealing it. Then at least the blaring alarm will stop sooner.
 
2012-06-28 01:01:03 PM

Tat'dGreaser: If you live on the outskirts of Pittsburgh then you really don't actually live in Pittsburgh, you live in a suburb.


I live in a residential neighborhood solidly in Pittsburgh city limits. I'm shielded from nearby major streets by a combination of distance and other buildings. My street is a quiet little alley that barely gets any traffic.

I'm not saying that every square inch of a city is quiet- but pretty much any decent residential neighborhood is usually extremely quiet. I've lived in cities all my life, and I know the difference between a loud section (like the main drag in Albany I used to live on), and a quiet neighborhood (like the street I grew up on- solidly in city limits, but the guy down the street raised chickens, and everybody had massive yards).
 
2012-06-28 01:02:02 PM
Lived in Chicago for five years - good riddance! Loved it at first but once the newness wears off I realized That the hidden costs and hassles involved with getting around were not worth it. Too many people.

Yeah, I'm fun at parties.
 
2012-06-28 01:05:52 PM

t3knomanser: I live in a residential neighborhood solidly in Pittsburgh city limits. I'm shielded from nearby major streets by a combination of distance and other buildings. My street is a quiet little alley that barely gets any traffic.

I'm not saying that every square inch of a city is quiet- but pretty much any decent residential neighborhood is usually extremely quiet. I've lived in cities all my life, and I know the difference between a loud section (like the main drag in Albany I used to live on), and a quiet neighborhood (like the street I grew up on- solidly in city limits, but the guy down the street raised chickens, and everybody had massive yards).


How much do you pay to live there though? The only way I could afford to live in a city is if I lived in the ghetto.
 
2012-06-28 01:06:16 PM

IHadMeAVision: t3knomanser:
I'll never understand why people think cities are noisy to live in.


People don't drive down your block at 3 in the morning blasting reggaeton or hip-hop loud enough to set off all the car alarms, none of which can be turned off because people generally have to park a block away from their homes so then you gotta wait a full five minutes to fall back asleep? Psssh, what kinda city is that?


meh I don't have to deal with that.
I do have to deal with dipshiats racing their sports bikes around at 3 am followed by the sirens of the local fire station that tend to kick off just as I am falling back to sleep just a few minutes later for some reason.

That's double irritating since there's a nice big empty desert like 30 minutes away.... go out there and be morans. Morans.
 
2012-06-28 01:06:29 PM
What about HOPAs?

www.blogcdn.com
 
2012-06-28 01:07:54 PM
I live three miles from an executive airport, 100 yards from a busy set of tracks, a mile from two different interstates, under the flight path of northeast bound jets from ATL, and the damn coyotes that live by the tracks howl every night, yet I sleep with the windows open. It's only when I come home from a trip that I say "hey, it's loud here."

It is louder where I live, but I don't hear it anymore. It only takes about a week to get used to it.

A few times when we've gotten snow here and the city shuts down then it's actually quiet. That's cool.
 
2012-06-28 01:08:30 PM
I lived my first 25 years in NYC, moving to the Suburbs to raise a family, was and continues to be a great way to live. There is no correct answer, it all depends on your life experiences and what your interests are.
 
2012-06-28 01:08:59 PM
I grew up in NYC. I'd talk to suburbanites about why they were living in a place where you had to drive everywhere and I'd get some dodgy stuff about needing a yard to raise their children. They'd spend 4 hours a day commuting and never spend time with them. My own urban dad left at 8:30 and got home at 5:30, so we spent lots of time with him learning fart jokes, minor handyman skills, and enjoying his engaging stories. The other argument was the cost of housing. When the rent is high and you are middle class, you actually can budget around it. (Hint: Only so much crap can fit in a smaller house, so there's less recreational shopping.)

Really it boiled down to Fear of Brown People. What I find highly amusing is that the Brown People followed the Frightened White People out to the suburbs.
 
2012-06-28 01:09:04 PM

Tat'dGreaser: How much do you pay to live there though?


My mortgage payment, on a 15 year loan, is a little over $1K/mo. Even after that, we're putting between $2K-$5K away in savings every month (not counting the workplace 401K deductions). That's not because we're filthy rich 1%ers, but because it's actually really cheap for us to live in the city. We also don't have kids, which seems to be the most fundamental step to any retirement plan.
 
2012-06-28 01:09:35 PM
People who typically complain about the suburbs are young, have no children, and relatively poor. One of those factors might change and you could remain a hipster. Change two, though, and the world looks completely different. All of a sudden walking past bums on your daily visit to Starbucks doesn't seem so appealing when you imagine your children trying to play outside. The places you used to go now seem filled with high school aged kids with no greater agenda than to suffer through eight hours of work to get back to the mini-dramas of their vacuous friendships. Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity. And wow, you could get a much nicer place with a screened-in porch, a nice yard to play in, and room to grow for about the same money, instead of throwing it all down a big tax hole. We've all seen the people who've tried to stay in the city long passed their expiration date. They look creepy and stuck in a rut.

i49.tinypic.com

"Hey brother, you want to long board over to the cereal bar? I heard Judy's band is playing and they are so slamming. Dude?"
 
2012-06-28 01:10:26 PM
Kansas City is like this. I'd say it's made it a better place to live.
 
2012-06-28 01:11:02 PM

t3knomanser: That would be all of them, pretty much.


No it wouldn't. There are plenty of suburbs that are walkable if that's what you desire. And when you have kids are you going to be dining out every night?
 
2012-06-28 01:11:52 PM

t3knomanser: My mortgage payment, on a 15 year loan, is a little over $1K/mo. Even after that, we're putting between $2K-$5K away in savings every month (not counting the workplace 401K deductions). That's not because we're filthy rich 1%ers, but because it's actually really cheap for us to live in the city. We also don't have kids, which seems to be the most fundamental step to any retirement plan.


Well you are definitely rolling in way more money than I am
 
2012-06-28 01:13:45 PM

t3knomanser: Tat'dGreaser: How much do you pay to live there though?

My mortgage payment, on a 15 year loan, is a little over $1K/mo. Even after that, we're putting between $2K-$5K away in savings every month (not counting the workplace 401K deductions). That's not because we're filthy rich 1%ers, but because it's actually really cheap for us to live in the city. We also don't have kids, which seems to be the most fundamental step to any retirement plan.


Well, and Pittsburgh is pretty cheap. Or at least it was 10 years ago when I was entertaining a job offer there.
 
2012-06-28 01:17:00 PM
welcome to mega city
we are the voting bloc
we pack like rats
we are unaware of production of food
we are aware of instant gratification
..and the price for it
we murder more americans here than in iraq or afghanistan
and that's okay
 
2012-06-28 01:17:04 PM

Tat'dGreaser: The only way I could afford to live in a city is if I lived in the ghetto.


So? You're a dude, right?
 
2012-06-28 01:18:35 PM
As long as you all stay out of the sticks, then do whatever the hell you want!

/walks outside naked, pees off his front porch
//saving water
 
2012-06-28 01:19:17 PM
Poor people breed faster, news at 11:00.
 
2012-06-28 01:19:21 PM

Dscharf766: I lived my first 25 years in NYC, moving to the Suburbs to raise a family, was and continues to be a great way to live. There is no correct answer, it all depends on your life experiences and what your interests are.


WRONG! If you can't throw a baseball in any direction from the roof of your home without hitting a Singaporean restaurant and have neighbors from Belize, Japan, and East Timor, you don't know how to live.
 
2012-06-28 01:19:23 PM
I've lived in a city for several years during/after college and grew up in suburbs, will probably move back eventually. Lots of folks in this thread sound like they knew one or two people from city/burbs and applied those characteristics to EVERY person in city/burbs. I think they're both lovely depending on where you're at in life/income/activities. Not everyone has the same values in terms of nightlife/eating out/proximity to various activities. As I get older, I expect being close to all the hubbub of a big city will be less and less appealing. Perfect for right now though (Chicago in my case).
 
2012-06-28 01:19:47 PM

spentmiles: Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity


HAHAHAHA. And a $1200 mortgage payment does?

First off, the only part of your mortgage payment that's tax deductible is the interest. Which you pay less of every year. My first year of home ownership, it saved me $1,000 in taxes. Three years in, I don't even bother to figure out how much it is, because it's not even enough to clear the standard deduction.

As for equity- a home is a terrible way to build equity. You're better off with a savings account or rolling over CDs if you want equity. If you are willing to take some risks, go with a mutual fund. At least with that kind of equity, you can turn it around into cash quickly and easily. Home equity tends to retain its value relative to inflation, but it's so much harder to liquidate that you're best off treating home equity as sunk costs. I mean, your options are to either leverage against your equity or sell the property.

That sort of financial "advice" is why we have many of the economic issues we are in. It's idiocy, right up there with things like "renting is throwing money away!"

I say this as a homeowner: renting is good. You can rent a place more cheaply than you can own, because renting is temporary. You don't need to rent something as nice as you can find. But when you buy, you're committing for a long haul. Buy the best thing you can afford. Rent the cheapest thing you'll accept.
 
2012-06-28 01:19:47 PM
Hopefully this trend continues. The more people that flock to the cities, the cheaper land will be out in the sticks.

//Not a city person
 
2012-06-28 01:19:49 PM

Burr: As long as you all stay out of the sticks, then do whatever the hell you want!

/walks outside naked, pees off his front porch
//saving water


I thought living in the ghetto was tolerable when I was 25 and had nothing good to steal. Now, not so much.
 
2012-06-28 01:20:54 PM

t3knomanser: Tat'dGreaser: How much do you pay to live there though?

My mortgage payment, on a 15 year loan, is a little over $1K/mo. Even after that, we're putting between $2K-$5K away in savings every month (not counting the workplace 401K deductions). That's not because we're filthy rich 1%ers, but because it's actually really cheap for us to live in the city. We also don't have kids, which seems to be the most fundamental step to any retirement plan.


That doesn't really answer the question though, since we have no idea how much you put down.
How much does an average house in that neighborhood cost?

And if you are putting away 2-5 k a month of you take home... you may not be 1%... but you are nowhere near the median.
 
2012-06-28 01:20:55 PM

spentmiles: People who typically complain about the suburbs are young, have no children, and relatively poor. One of those factors might change and you could remain a hipster. Change two, though, and the world looks completely different. All of a sudden walking past bums on your daily visit to Starbucks doesn't seem so appealing when you imagine your children trying to play outside. The places you used to go now seem filled with high school aged kids with no greater agenda than to suffer through eight hours of work to get back to the mini-dramas of their vacuous friendships. Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity. And wow, you could get a much nicer place with a screened-in porch, a nice yard to play in, and room to grow for about the same money, instead of throwing it all down a big tax hole. We've all seen the people who've tried to stay in the city long passed their expiration date. They look creepy and stuck in a rut.

[i49.tinypic.com image 319x240]

"Hey brother, you want to long board over to the cereal bar? I heard Judy's band is playing and they are so slamming. Dude?"


...I don't get it.

Was that a serious post?????? :O

...cause I agree with a lot of what you said.

/urban living is for douches who need an adventure and have lived a boring life so far
 
2012-06-28 01:21:07 PM
As people shied away from larger cities and information started moving faster, people wanted more instant connectivity to goods and services and started to regentrify urban areas. People are no longer enamored with the idea of needing to drive 3 miles through circuitous cul de sacs for a 12 pack of Diet Pepsi and a bag of chips. It's a pain in the ass. They also started figuring out that the only people staring in envy at their manicured lawns and pressure washed brick facades were the other mooks up the road who owned the same damn cookie cutter 4 B/R 2.1 bath chipboard palace and the HOA who were waiting to fine them for an errant weed in the tree lawn. Trends come and go. If you bought your home to live in and you like where you live, you're set. If you bought it to enter the keeping up with the Jones' race, you ain't never gonna be happy cause that ain't what a home is for. As for me, give me 16 story buildings, concrete and a vibrant art scene. I can live without granite and a gardener.
 
2012-06-28 01:22:04 PM

Rapmaster2000: Well, and Pittsburgh is pretty cheap.


Don't worry; t3knomanser is doing his best to fark that up in this thread.

/ Remembers how different Seattle was before the media decided it a great place to live
 
2012-06-28 01:22:15 PM

DrewCurtisJr: And when you have kids are you going to be dining out every night?


I don't dine out often as it is. And I'm not having kids. The point is that I want all of my amenities in walking distance. I want to walk to the grocery store. I want to walk to the BRT station. I want to walk to my friends' houses.

Rapmaster2000: Or at least it was 10 years ago when I was entertaining a job offer there.


It still is.

natas6.0: we are unaware of production of food


Vertical farming is the future.
 
2012-06-28 01:22:48 PM

Rapmaster2000: I thought living in the ghetto was tolerable when I was 25 and had nothing good to steal. Now, not so much.


The ghetto is how, not where you live. Pass this along to the people in the ghetto.
 
2012-06-28 01:24:48 PM

bunner: Rapmaster2000: I thought living in the ghetto was tolerable when I was 25 and had nothing good to steal. Now, not so much.

The ghetto is how, not where you live. Pass this along to the people in the ghetto.


fark that, you do it. I ain't going back out there.
 
2012-06-28 01:25:11 PM

Sticky Hands: How much does an average house in that neighborhood cost?


In my neighborhood, which admittedly is one of the more expensive ones, you're looking at $200Kish. If you want an older home, but still want the quiet of residential neighborhoods like mine, you can buy a decent needs-fresh-paint-and-carpet-fixer-upper for closer to $80K.

dragonchild: Don't worry; t3knomanser is doing his best to fark that up in this thread.


Oh, please, like anybody's actually going to listen to me. I'm coming off as that kind of hipster douche you would never want as a neighbor. Trust me, I'm scaring more people out of the city.
 
2012-06-28 01:25:41 PM
Your 'burbs suck.
 
2012-06-28 01:27:49 PM

drunk_bouncnbaloruber: If you grew up in the suburbs, you feel dead inside until you move away/go to college.


I was so convinced I loved suburban life until I went to college in Boston. It isn't the best city in the world, but pretty nice. I moved back to the burbs when I finished and wanted to kill myself. I couldn't walk anywhere, car culture dominated, and there was little to do as a 22 year old. Basically it literally and figuratively wasn't for me.

Live in a city. Then, you realize if it advertises on TV, it probably isn't a good restaurant.
 
2012-06-28 01:31:43 PM
The whole point of cities is that their concentration of people makes many things easier and more efficient while providing the widest range of options. This has been true since the beginning of history and they wouldn't exist otherwise.

Over time cities go through cycles where being too expensive, dangerous, polluted, and so on make it advantageous for the rich or the poor to move out to suburbs but when these problems correct people move back because of the advantage of cities.
 
2012-06-28 01:32:06 PM

Sticky Hands: bunner: Rapmaster2000: I thought living in the ghetto was tolerable when I was 25 and had nothing good to steal. Now, not so much.

The ghetto is how, not where you live. Pass this along to the people in the ghetto.

fark that, you do it. I ain't going back out there.


Of course not. Ghettos are created by crime and neglect. The crime chases the money out, the lack of money causes neglect, the owners rent their now horrid dumps out to anybody who can cough up a third of the rent value, they live like sh*t, it deteriorates more and when all the money is gone, speculators buy at rock bottom and get all the buildings looking nice again and rent for top dollar. People with money move there because it's "chic" and because even the criminals have left because there's nothing left to steal. This cycle is like the waves lapping against the shore, completely avoidable and not ending any time soon. Crime, greed and laziness are the recipes for ghettos. And selfish lazy people will continue to destroy their own communities until they are educated about the consequences or want more out of life than a leaky roof, 90 channels and somebody to wipe their asses for them.
 
2012-06-28 01:32:55 PM

t3knomanser: I love living in a city.


This.
 
2012-06-28 01:36:02 PM
My Lawn. Get off it.

Hot Child In The City
Nick Gilder

Danger in the shape of somethin' wild
Stranger dressed in black, she's a hungry child
No one knows who she is or what her name is
I don't know where she came from or what her game is

(Hot child in the city)
(Hot child in the city)
(Runnin' wild and lookin' pretty)
(Hot child in the city)

So young to be loose and on her own
Young boys, they all want to take her home
She goes downtown, the boys all stop and stare
When she goes downtown, she walks like she just don't care, care

(Hot child in the city)
(Hot child in the city)
(Runnin' wild and lookin' pretty)
Yeah
(Hot child in the city)

Come on down to my place, baby
We'll talk about love
Come on down to my place, woman
We'll make love!

Hot child in the city
(Hot child in the city)
She's kinda dangerous
(Hot child in the city)
Young child
(Runnin' wild and lookin' pretty)
Young child, runnin' wild
(Hot child in the city)
Hot child in the city
 
2012-06-28 01:37:06 PM
I don't really care where I live, so long as I'm with people I care about.

And that's...one to grow on.
 
2012-06-28 01:37:10 PM

t3knomanser: As for equity- a home is a terrible way to build equity. You're better off with a savings account or rolling over CDs if you want equity. If you are willing to take some risks, go with a mutual fund. At least with that kind of equity, you can turn it around into cash quickly and easily. Home equity tends to retain its value relative to inflation, but it's so much harder to liquidate that you're best off treating home equity as sunk costs. I mean, your options are to either leverage against your equity or sell the property.


The other perk is stability. It seems you're keeping your assets as liquid as possible; my wife and I are taking the opposite approach -- we're putting over $4k into the mortgage monthly, more whenever we can (we make good money but not great money -- homebodies are just cheap dates :). But we bought this one house while I'm in my mid-thirties and we plan to die in it. No "upgrades" or whatever. We're on pace to pay off the thing in five years, at which point our monthly housing costs will drop to about $400. For a house. In Boston. At that moment we wouldn't have anything in savings beyond our rainy day fund, but whatever we save after that would go a LOT farther. To be honest it's a bit of a gamble, but I disagree with those hordes of "experts" who say we're doing everything wrong.

Thing is, this perk isn't realized until the house is paid off, and I've yet to meet someone who plans anything 30 years out. A conventional 30-year mortgage is a glorified rental and these "sub-primes" are even worse. If you're not serious about paying off the mortgage ASAP, you're not really "buying" a house.

And yeah, forget that goddamn mortgage interest deduction. It was meaningful back when rates were high, but not today.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:03 PM

The Southern Logic Company: The girl in the article mentions her parents' commute. Her parents probably did their commuting in the 80s or 90s when gas prices were MUCH lower...
So what changed? Gas is 3.40/gal and spikes up to 4.50/gal at times.


I see this argument all the time, and it's a complete fallacy. For the sake of argument, let's say gas costs me (a suburbanite) $60/week these days to commute approx. 25 miles each way to/from the office, 5x per week. And let's say it cost more like $18/week back in the day. That's a difference of $42/week.

That's a grand total of $2100 per year. Not chickenfeed, but certainly not a top 10 factor in such an important decision. Hardly worth mentioning, in this context.


Even personally, I have no desire to live in the suburbs.

I suspect this is your real point. The rest is mostly rationalization.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:05 PM

HairBolus: The whole point of cities is that their concentration of people makes many things easier and more efficient while providing the widest range of options. This has been true since the beginning of history and they wouldn't exist otherwise.


If you rewind history, cities have generally been some of the worst places on Earth to live. Go back one century, and major cities were so suffused with litter and refuse that rotting waste would be piled up like snowbanks as people shoveled it off of the sidewalks. Diseases spread like wildfire. People crammed into tenements.

It doesn't get better going further back. They only existed for one reason: economies of scale. The rich generally still lived in the city, or at least maintained property there, but usually they were rich enough to push back the borders of the city around their own mansions. They didn't mix with the milieu.

With the growth of the environmental movement, that's started to change. I'd say it's largely been the past thirty years that we've seen the nature of cities really begin to change, as people get frustrated with smog, and overcrowding, and ghettoization, and so on.

The modern city is quite different from the cities of the past. It's less about cycles, and more about a fundamental change in how we relate to, and plan, our cities.
 
2012-06-28 01:38:23 PM

verbaltoxin: We live in the burbs now, but I'd actually like to move further out to the outskirts. More room, more land, and more quiet. I still like the city for activities, but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!


31, live right downtown St. Pete, don't want more room to pay to air condition, don't want a square inch of land to mow. It's not happening.
 
2012-06-28 01:39:05 PM

t3knomanser: Oh, please, like anybody's actually going to listen to me. I'm coming off as that kind of hipster douche you would never want as a neighbor. Trust me, I'm scaring more people out of the city.


Good point. Crank it up a bit then, will you? You're not scary enough. You gotta say stuff like "only idiots and assholes live in suburbia" and shiat like that.
 
2012-06-28 01:40:40 PM
I don't live in the 'burbs' nor the city. I live in a rural housing development that is about 15 minutes away from most local commercial centers.

I GIS'd 'suburb' and was promptly horrified by what came up and, to me, living in such a massive urban sprawl that seems to go on for miles just has to me a nightmare of major proportions.

I've read pieces about folks turning their big city apartments into magical havens of wonder and efficiency but the majority I've seen apparently have the square footage of a closet. Most have about half the square footage of my home. Then, I read about their determined reconstruction of the living spaces and realize that they spend nearly as much as on a new home and average lot.

Buying a 'home' in the city usually means spending $150,000 on a 4th floor walk-up that equals the size of what we call an 'efficiency apartment' here. Meaning, often the kitchen, dining area and living room are all one unit. Sometimes the living room and bedroom are the same place.

With an aerial view of the 'burbs' it was scary to see so many folks mashed into such limited space with layouts that basically looked like planners used a plate of spaghetti to design the streets. I shudder to think of the massive HOA's that rule the areas with iron fists.
The idea of an hour or two commute to work is daunting also. I used to have to drive 35 minutes to a job in the next city and I hated that.

One of the smartest families in my area, decades ago, bought 10 acres of undeveloped land and plopped their home right in the middle. They resisted selling off any acreage during the housing boom and as a result, have communities built all around them, BUT they have a thick buffer of wild woods between them and the neighbors. They also made sure the front area of their property is thickly over grown with trees and palmettos, with just the driveway winding through, to shield them from the busy, paved road that is now there.

I envy them. Personally, if it was my land, I think I'd mine the perimeter to keep the curious out.
 
2012-06-28 01:43:22 PM
All part of UN Agenda 21.
 
2012-06-28 01:43:37 PM
There are major pros and cons of each.

I live in Seattle now (SLU) and I really like being able to walk everywhere, and all the different restaurants and things to do. But the noise and the bums and the crime wear on me day after day.
 
2012-06-28 01:44:29 PM

Valiente: Eapoe6: Logan's Run seemed so improbable when it was released.

All I remember is Jenny Agutter's perky nips from the ice cave.

I'm pretty sure that kick-started puberty.


That brings back memories (and mammories). Which sent me on a GIS... turns out, Jenny spent a lot of time out of costume, so the pics are ample. In addition, I stumbled across the 50 sexiest outfits in sci-fi blog post, that is well worth perusing.
 
2012-06-28 01:45:19 PM

Contents Under Pressure: Really it boiled down to Fear of Brown People. What I find highly amusing is that the Brown People followed the Frightened White People out to the suburbs.


Too general. Some people simply do not want to live in the city, brown people or not. I couldn't stand to live in NYC. It's okay to visit for a few days, but the place would make me crazy. I live in a very peaceful burb, with large yards, lots of trees and, by comparison, peace and quiet. When I go downtown, the noise alone wears on me. My place in the mountains is a blissful paradise to me because of the space, the natural quite and the clean air.

/and, why yes, there are brown peoples living in my area. They aren't a problem.
 
2012-06-28 01:45:29 PM

dragonchild: But we bought this one house while I'm in my mid-thirties and we plan to die in it. No "upgrades" or whatever.


We're actually working pretty similarly, although not nearly so aggressive on the paying down the mortgage. We're shooting for a ten year payoff, but other than that- same plan. We bought the house. We're going to pay it off and then we're going to keep it. No starter home, no upgrades, nothing like that.

But for most people, I don't think stability is necessary or even a positive thing. If your life itself isn't stable- if moving is a reasonable possibility in the next 5 years, for example- owning a home is similar to owning a boat anchor. I got a good deal on my house because the previous owner needed to move out of state for work. He had sunk $20K into the kitchen and the only time it had been used had been when the realtor baked cookies for the open house.
 
2012-06-28 01:46:11 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Dscharf766: I lived my first 25 years in NYC, moving to the Suburbs to raise a family, was and continues to be a great way to live. There is no correct answer, it all depends on your life experiences and what your interests are.

WRONG! If you can't throw a baseball in any direction from the roof of your home without hitting a Singaporean restaurant and have neighbors from Belize, Japan, and East Timor, you don't know how to live.


This. If you like living anyplace but a high density city, you're a fool. A FOOL! EVERYBODY should move to the city. Everybody. That'll make them lots better and will have no downside whatsoever.
 
2012-06-28 01:47:36 PM

verbaltoxin: t3knomanser: verbaltoxin: but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!

Well, I'm in my thirties. I'll keep my eye open for the symptoms of being old, and try and seek early treatment.

Admittedly, if I can ever convince my wife to move, I'd relocate to the Twin Cities and have a house w/in city limits there. I like being able to walk/cab to Matt's or Cecil's. I'm flexible really. I just like the two extremes: the extreme quiet and openness of being in the sticks, or the compactness and convenience of a city. The suburbs are a very crappy in-between.


My sentiments exactly. I have lived in the country, the city and the suburbs. The only place I truly hated living was the suburbs because nothing was close by and was still far from school. I felt like it was a vortex of despair and concrete that lacked any vibrancy. I liked living in the core of the city because of the convenience of public transit and services but wasn't close to school. However, I always knew I wanted out of the city. 2 years ago when SO got the job he wanted, we moved out to the country. Yes, I miss the convenience of walking everywhere but I love the fact that we could afford a house with 2+ acres that I now grow my own garden and that the only noises I hear are the wildlife and the neighbour's chainsaw. Also, I have been working at home so I am not stuck with a crazy commute. At this point in my life, the country is where I want to be.
 
2012-06-28 01:48:51 PM
The lady interviewed in the article learned in her freshman year of high school that suburbs develop rich, angry, white psychos.
 
2012-06-28 01:49:14 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Where are these suburbs with no restaurants?


Oh I live in one. I love my place. It's big, quite, nice view of the lake, fantastic garden yard, huge deck for parties, etc... but the local restaurants are all either box chain stores (Ferellies, etc...), fast food, and the one or two privately held places are terrible. If you like to eat, you have to go somewhere else to find a decent restaurant.

I'd rather chew my arm off than live in the city, but I would love to have a nice place to eat a little closer to home.
 
2012-06-28 01:50:50 PM

Magnanimous_J: There are major pros and cons of each.


I have lived in 18 different homes in 49 years. Big city, suburbs, country-ass country, college towns, military base... all over the country.

There have been significant pros and significant cons to every single place I've ever lived.

It all comes down to personal preferences and priorities. Period.
 
2012-06-28 01:52:30 PM

t3knomanser: They only existed for one reason: economies of scale.


I disagree; they were all about logistics. They didn't have the wonder of the internal combustion engine prior to industrialization, which really got economies of scale to take off. Why did cities exist in ancient history? 4 out of 5 people were farmers!

The point, I think, is that without trucks to move stuff or cars/trains to move people, it was far more efficient to pack your non-farmers as close together as possible. Today, a car factory in Indiana can use steel imported from China to lower its costs. Back in the day, though, importing shiat was a Big Deal. That is one way of saying economies of scale, but I don't like the nuance -- my point is that the cause was microeconomic, not planned. More often than not, governments didn't plan cities so much as a bunch of artisans moved closer together for obvious, but personal, reasons. If someone paid for a wagon, without any outside influence the carpenter and leatherworker and blacksmith wanted to be as close together as possible because parts were delivered using muscle -- human at worst, horse at best. You also didn't want your parts or goods spending too much time in transit because even city roads back then weren't nearly as safe as today's interstates. Unfortunately for the blacksmith and leatherworker and carpenter, the "government" of the day was often nobility that didn't much care about infrastructure or security, so a "successful" city wound up looking like the Superdome a week after Katrina.
 
2012-06-28 01:54:18 PM

cyberbenali: The only place I truly hated living was the suburbs because nothing was close by and was still far from school.


It isn't like this in every burb. I have almost everything I need within a couple of miles. One of the finest elementary schools in the state is within walking distance. But that's only the area of town I live in. There are other burbs that tout their convenience to shopping, restaurants and other amenities. What they mean by this is that the postage stamp sized home sits on barely enough land to contain it, that there are 800 other homes just like it in the subdivision and that the subdivision sits back behind three rows of strip malls on a six lane highway that carries 120.000 cars per day. Miles and miles of ugliness and turmoil. Given the choice between this suburban horror and downtown, I'll take downtown any day.
 
2012-06-28 01:54:46 PM

cyberbenali: Yes, I miss the convenience of walking everywhere but I love the fact that we could afford a house with 2+ acres that I now grow my own garden and that the only noises I hear are the wildlife and the neighbour's chainsaw. Also, I have been working at home so I am not stuck with a crazy commute. At this point in my life, the country is where I want to be.


Everybody, don't listen to this person! The sticks are full of rednecks, republicans, bears, and inbred mountain folk who will make you "squeal like a pig"

/there, that should keep them away
 
2012-06-28 01:56:30 PM

dragonchild: I disagree; they were all about logistics.


Distinction without difference, in this case. By clustering people, you amortize the cost and increase the relative value of infrastructure. That's really where I was getting.
 
2012-06-28 01:56:45 PM
I love livin' in the city

My house smells just like the zoo
It chock full of shiat and puke
Cockroaches on the walls
Crabs crawlin' on my balls
Ohh, well I'm so clean cut
I just wanna fark some sluts

Spent my whole life in the city
Where junk is king and the air smells shiatty
People pukin' everywhere
Piles of blood, scabs and hair
Bodies wasted in the street
People dyin' on the street
But the suburban scumbags, they don't care
Just get fat and dye their hair

I love livin' in the city
 
2012-06-28 01:56:51 PM

t3knomanser: spentmiles: Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity

HAHAHAHA. And a $1200 mortgage payment does?

First off, the only part of your mortgage payment that's tax deductible is the interest. Which you pay less of every year. My first year of home ownership, it saved me $1,000 in taxes. Three years in, I don't even bother to figure out how much it is, because it's not even enough to clear the standard deduction.

As for equity- a home is a terrible way to build equity. You're better off with a savings account or rolling over CDs if you want equity. If you are willing to take some risks, go with a mutual fund. At least with that kind of equity, you can turn it around into cash quickly and easily. Home equity tends to retain its value relative to inflation, but it's so much harder to liquidate that you're best off treating home equity as sunk costs. I mean, your options are to either leverage against your equity or sell the property.

That sort of financial "advice" is why we have many of the economic issues we are in. It's idiocy, right up there with things like "renting is throwing money away!"

I say this as a homeowner: renting is good. You can rent a place more cheaply than you can own, because renting is temporary. You don't need to rent something as nice as you can find. But when you buy, you're committing for a long haul. Buy the best thing you can afford. Rent the cheapest thing you'll accept.


My god, I hope you have a professional managing your finances. You sound like you have a Scottrade account that's heavily vested in Facebook shares. I'm going to brag about how much money I've made off the housing industry, but it's probably more than you'll make in your entire life. Do not take this man's advice!
 
2012-06-28 01:56:58 PM
I like my place in the burbs. But at times I do miss my old apt it was about 2 miles north of the DC/MD boarder, right next to a metro station so I could just ride home drunk on the train. But it realy is cheaper for me to live in the burbs. my mortgage is half of what I was paying in rent when I left.
 
2012-06-28 01:59:40 PM
I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that kids who grew up during the suburban boom... who are now in their late 20s to mid 30s... hated it. I know most people who grew up with me in Naperville, IL hated the suburbs. Most of us were hell-bent on living in Chicago (or some city) when we got older.

I'm sure the suburbs worked for my parents and their generation. I mean, they still live there and all. Just not for my generation.

Personally, I need stores, bars, restaruants within walking or biking distance.
 
2012-06-28 02:00:51 PM

t3knomanser: But for most people, I don't think stability is necessary or even a positive thing. If your life itself isn't stable- if moving is a reasonable possibility in the next 5 years, for example- owning a home is similar to owning a boat anchor.


I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I think that's why these "experts" are so dangerous. If everyone did what we did, 90% of them might end in disaster. But if I followed the "experts", our retirement plan would be a disaster. We came up with a plan that's working for us.

Anyway, consider that once we pay the house off, with a little belt-tightening we can get by on minimum wage jobs without borrowing a dime. That's one form of financial security, even a retirement of sorts. It's a far cry from sipping margaritas on a beach, but I like our plan better than hoping to win the Powerball.
 
2012-06-28 02:04:17 PM

t3knomanser: Distinction without difference, in this case. By clustering people, you amortize the cost and increase the relative value of infrastructure. That's really where I was getting.


OK, good. I didn't like "economies of scale" because it can -- and more often than not does -- apply to consumed resources, not infrastructure. I mean, you were literally correct, but the blacksmith moving to the city didn't make the smithy any more efficient.
 
2012-06-28 02:05:33 PM

t3knomanser: In my neighborhood, which admittedly is one of the more expensive ones, you're looking at $200Kish. If you want an older home, but still want the quiet of residential neighborhoods like mine, you can buy a decent needs-fresh-paint-and-carpet-fixer-upper for closer to $80K.


Mmmm.... I'm guessing Squirrel Hill, Shadyside or Highland Park.
 
2012-06-28 02:06:22 PM

dryknife: All part of UN Agenda 21.


Pack 'em and stack 'em.
 
2012-06-28 02:08:17 PM

spentmiles: I'm going to brag about how much money I've made off the housing industry, but it's probably more than you'll make in your entire life.


encrypted-tbn2.google.com

I assume you've made that money thanks to your GED in Real Estate. Few of us have the initial investment nor the inclination to be real estate investors. I have no interest in spending my time or money buying and selling real estate. I have better and more interesting things to do with my time.
 
2012-06-28 02:09:30 PM

DrewCurtisJr: t3knomanser: That would be all of them, pretty much.

No it wouldn't. There are plenty of suburbs that are walkable if that's what you desire. And when you have kids are you going to be dining out every night?


Maybe its just my experience... since I only lived in Chicago's suburbs. But I knew my way through maybe hundreds of suburbs (Chicago has a TON) and none of them were "walkable".

At best you have a 1 out of 10 chance of being at a walkable distance to a convenience store, like I did growing up. That's about it though.

I've lived in about 4-5 suburbs over 30 years. Nothing was "walkable" by any definition I can come up with.
 
2012-06-28 02:11:43 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Shadyside


Bingo. I actually live within spitting distance of Bakery Square 2.0, but thankfully, they'll be putting the residential portion of the development on the side of the property facing me.

Where I'm at is extra nice compared to regular Shadyside, just because I'm right on the intersection of Shadyside, Point Breeze, Larimer and East Liberty.

I got in at a good time, too, because with all the new development, I'm expecting my property value to increase. Not that I particularly care- I'm not planning to sell- but it's nice to know that my house won't be a millstone for the foreseeable future.
 
2012-06-28 02:12:58 PM

Mr_Fabulous: I have lived in 18 different homes in 49 years. Big city, suburbs, country-ass country, college towns, military base... all over the country.

There have been significant pros and significant cons to every single place I've ever lived.

It all comes down to personal preferences and priorities. Period.


Yep. And I try to caveat my pro-city posts by saying its my preference.

There was a time in my life (my first house) where I'd spent my college years in a big city (Chicago). At that point I really wanted the isolation of the suburbs. I loved it for 7 years or so, then decided it was time to move to a city (New Orleans).

Some people like living in rural areas. The reasons are obvious, even though its not my preference. Quiet, lots of space between you and neighbors, lots of outdoor activities to do that you can't in the city (hunting, off-roading, whatever.)
 
2012-06-28 02:16:43 PM
I live in the city now, so to speak, though I rent.

i couldn't walk anywhere useful if I wanted to, and public transport here is a joke. Not every city is NYC or Seattle or Chicago or Boston. People need to remember that.

The wife and I are looking for our house in the suburbs. Because they're less crime-ridden and have better schools than the city. Though the roads here are actually pretty well laid out it seems, as it would be a challenge for me to find a place that would significantly alter the time of my current 30-minute-ish commute.
 
2012-06-28 02:18:47 PM

spentmiles: t3knomanser: spentmiles: Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity

HAHAHAHA. And a $1200 mortgage payment does?

First off, the only part of your mortgage payment that's tax deductible is the interest. Which you pay less of every year. My first year of home ownership, it saved me $1,000 in taxes. Three years in, I don't even bother to figure out how much it is, because it's not even enough to clear the standard deduction.

As for equity- a home is a terrible way to build equity. You're better off with a savings account or rolling over CDs if you want equity. If you are willing to take some risks, go with a mutual fund. At least with that kind of equity, you can turn it around into cash quickly and easily. Home equity tends to retain its value relative to inflation, but it's so much harder to liquidate that you're best off treating home equity as sunk costs. I mean, your options are to either leverage against your equity or sell the property.

That sort of financial "advice" is why we have many of the economic issues we are in. It's idiocy, right up there with things like "renting is throwing money away!"

I say this as a homeowner: renting is good. You can rent a place more cheaply than you can own, because renting is temporary. You don't need to rent something as nice as you can find. But when you buy, you're committing for a long haul. Buy the best thing you can afford. Rent the cheapest thing you'll accept.

My god, I hope you have a professional managing your finances. You sound like you have a Scottrade account that's heavily vested in Facebook shares. I'm going to brag about how much money I've made off the housing industry, but it's probably more than you'll make in your entire life. Do not take this man's advice!


I was thinking the same thing. While I do not believe that your home should be considered an investment, anyone who knows about investing knows that owning a home is, in the long term, the cheapest form of housing and can be a lucrative investment. This is because one does build up equity, which offsets the cost of principal outlay, mortgage interest and maintenance cost. When one rents, there are no offsets; what one pays is what one pays, with no return. When someone says that it is way cheaper to rent than to own, I know they live in an area glutted with rental properties and few renters. In many areas right now, it is actually more expensive to rent than to own, because of a shortage of rental units. My 15 yr. standard mortgage cost me some $1800/mo. But one of my neighbors, who moved into an apartment with his wife after the kids were gone, is renting his home for $2600/month. It was leased within a week of going on the market. He paid $85,000 for the house new. It's worth $250,000 and the mortgage was paid off years ago. So he can make quite a bit of money renting it now and sell it for even more after the market recovers. It's say this beats earning 0.782% on a $25,000 bank CD.
 
2012-06-28 02:20:17 PM
As a resident of a small city, I have the best of both worlds. I live on a lovely forested estate in a historic house. I can walk 20 minutes to dining, nightlife and amenities. My daily commute was about 5 miles. I'd drive when it rained and cycle when it was sunny (I'm funemployed now). Looking for work is harder than it would be in a bigger city, but I have plenty of savings which allows me to wait and network until another good job comes along.

By virtue of my lawn, I live in a "suburb". By virtue of geography, which is more important, I live in a city. We have a downtown and all that stuff. This, for me, is the best compromise. When the oil crunch comes (it's coming soon - don't fool yourself), the suburbs will collapse. The suburbs are, in the words of Howard Kunstler, "the biggest misallocation of resources the world has ever known". They aren't sustainable and they will fail. Living locally will become paramount and the suburbs are ill-suited to the task.
 
2012-06-28 02:20:21 PM

downstairs: Maybe its just my experience... since I only lived in Chicago's suburbs. But I knew my way through maybe hundreds of suburbs (Chicago has a TON) and none of them were "walkable".


You said in another comment that you grew up in Naperville, there are walkable neighborhoods near downtown and the metra station. A lot more walkable than some of the neighborhoods in the city on the northwest and southwest sides. You also have Oak Park, Elmhurst, Evanston, etc...
 
2012-06-28 02:21:41 PM

spentmiles: People who typically complain about the suburbs are young, have no children, and relatively poor. One of those factors might change and you could remain a hipster. Change two, though, and the world looks completely different. All of a sudden walking past bums on your daily visit to Starbucks doesn't seem so appealing when you imagine your children trying to play outside. The places you used to go now seem filled with high school aged kids with no greater agenda than to suffer through eight hours of work to get back to the mini-dramas of their vacuous friendships. Then, eventually, you get a higher paying job and realize that the $1200 in rent your spending isn't tax deductible and builds you no equity. And wow, you could get a much nicer place with a screened-in porch, a nice yard to play in, and room to grow for about the same money, instead of throwing it all down a big tax hole. We've all seen the people who've tried to stay in the city long passed their expiration date. They look creepy and stuck in a rut.

[i49.tinypic.com image 319x240]

"Hey brother, you want to long board over to the cereal bar? I heard Judy's band is playing and they are so slamming. Dude?"


I'm not young (40). No kids. Not poor. Suburbia is a slow death. Good for dullards, though. And the simple.
 
2012-06-28 02:21:45 PM

t3knomanser: That would be all of them, pretty much. I can't even count the number of restaurants within a short walk of my house. Yes, I own a house. In a city. Because in residential neighborhoods, it's surprisingly affordable. Many of my neighbors have yards, because the idea that cities are concrete from horizon to horizon is also bullshiat.

Yes, you can get more land and more house for the same money in the suburbs. And if you need a 5-bedroom house on 10 acres of land, then yes, you really shouldn't be living in a city. But not everyone needs that kind of space (my house, at 1,300sq. ft. is a few hundred square feet larger than I'd like).


JFC, this. All of it.

/1,100 sq ft 90-year-old Cape Cod on a reasonable yard in a historic district two miles up the road from DC
//Four bars, a brewpub, fifteen non-chain restaurants, several banks, and a Metro station within easy walking distance
///the only white guy on the bus to work each morning -- and yet I'm still somehow alive OMG
 
2012-06-28 02:21:49 PM
i49.tinypic.com

Even the warriors are thinking of moving back to the city.
 
2012-06-28 02:22:27 PM
BTW, why do people keep mentioning tyrannical HOA's? Most people realize those only exist in newer, upper class suburbs, right? I live in a house that was built in 1968. There was this subdivision, an Air Force base and nothing but farmland when it was built. Nobody had any designs on making a neighborhood committee.

No wonder you jackholes keep slagging the suburbs. You've apparently never been to one.
 
2012-06-28 02:25:17 PM

JackieRabbit: While I do not believe that your home should be considered an investment, anyone who knows about investing knows that owning a home is, in the long term, the cheapest form of housing and can be a lucrative investment.


I highlighted the important part for you. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to understand why owning a home is not always a smart decision. I further leave it to the reader to figure out the difference between variations in the local housing market versus major trends and averages in the market in general.

Also: renting in the suburbs is, paradoxically, almost always more expensive than renting in the city. I don't know why.
 
2012-06-28 02:25:45 PM
Megalopolis ROCKS!
 
2012-06-28 02:28:04 PM
I think we have the best of both worlds.

We live on the train line north of NYC. Our town is pretty cool, we live with in walking distance of the center of town, the train station is right there if we want to head in to the city and not drive. The town center has just about everything you might need without having to get in the car and it is very picturesque.

We dont commute to the city tho, but because we live very close to our jobs allows us to share 1 car.

Rent is a little pricey tho. Just on the broader of should I buy or continue to rent.

There is stuff to do but requires a car generally as the cool stuff is just a little far for walking.
 
2012-06-28 02:28:47 PM

t3knomanser: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Shadyside

Bingo. I actually live within spitting distance of Bakery Square 2.0, but thankfully, they'll be putting the residential portion of the development on the side of the property facing me.

Where I'm at is extra nice compared to regular Shadyside, just because I'm right on the intersection of Shadyside, Point Breeze, Larimer and East Liberty.

I got in at a good time, too, because with all the new development, I'm expecting my property value to increase. Not that I particularly care- I'm not planning to sell- but it's nice to know that my house won't be a millstone for the foreseeable future.


Lot of good stuff happening in that area. Really big change from what it was like 5 years ago.
 
2012-06-28 02:29:59 PM

gshepnyc:
I'm not young (40). No kids. Not poor. Suburbia is a slow death. Good for dullards, though. And the simple.


You're hanging in there, for whatever personal reason, but you'll crack when you grow up and want to have children.
 
2012-06-28 02:30:32 PM

downstairs: Some people like living in rural areas. The reasons are obvious, even though its not my preference. Quiet, lots of space between you and neighbors, lots of outdoor activities to do that you can't in the city (hunting, off-roading, whatever.)


Thats me! I grew up in the country, moved to the city for college, and moved back out to the country afterwards. While it was very convenient to walk everywhere (especially the bars), It was just too crowded and noisy for me. Granted, I would take it over a suburb any day. Yeah, it sucks that I have to drive everywhere, but if you plan it right you only have to go to "town" about once a week (I could make it once every two weeks though).

Out here I have my garden, albeit small, it is still exciting to see peppers on the pepper plant now (bell peppers). My plan for the week is to wander over to the woods, find a downed tree, cut it up for firewood and have a bonfire for the 4th. Grill up some steaks, bust out the beer, roast some hot dogs, make some smores, crank up the radio, and shoot off some fireworks. Hopefully it is a clear night, you can really see the stars out here.

/I passed out in the hammock in the front yard last night, I only woke up because I was getting ate up by bugs
 
2012-06-28 02:30:43 PM

blank_czech: I'll think about this from my pool...in my 1/4 acre backyard with the fort and swingset for the kids... and the nice covered patio with lots of trees and green grass...yeah the suburbs....what a shiathole.

All for way less than 175K in a good neighborhood 30min from the city on a regular day. Besides the commute is not a total waste. Listen to podcasts or music or even the friggin' radio. I drive sensibly and find the commute to be somewhat relaxing. Its quiet, alone time.


I agree 100% with everything you said. I own a house in the burbs of Houston and couldn't be happier.
 
2012-06-28 02:31:34 PM

downstairs: Mr_Fabulous: I have lived in 18 different homes in 49 years. Big city, suburbs, country-ass country, college towns, military base... all over the country.

There have been significant pros and significant cons to every single place I've ever lived.

It all comes down to personal preferences and priorities. Period.

Yep. And I try to caveat my pro-city posts by saying its my preference.

There was a time in my life (my first house) where I'd spent my college years in a big city (Chicago). At that point I really wanted the isolation of the suburbs. I loved it for 7 years or so, then decided it was time to move to a city (New Orleans).

Some people like living in rural areas. The reasons are obvious, even though its not my preference. Quiet, lots of space between you and neighbors, lots of outdoor activities to do that you can't in the city (hunting, off-roading, whatever.)


I lived in the Lakeview neighborhood for 2 years, and Old Town for one year. And a few years in Evanston, which is like being in the city b/c it's on the CTA line. I enjoyed my time there a lot, and might return one day soon-ish.

But... things change when you procreate.

/Fox Valley now
 
2012-06-28 02:31:49 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Really big change from what it was like 5 years ago


I've lived in Shadyside for about 5 years, and if you said, "Hey, live by East Liberty!" 5 years ago, I would have- but I wouldn't have paid very much to do it. Now, East Liberty is actually a pretty desirable piece of real estate. Crazy.
 
2012-06-28 02:32:04 PM

t3knomanser: JackieRabbit: While I do not believe that your home should be considered an investment, anyone who knows about investing knows that owning a home is, in the long term, the cheapest form of housing and can be a lucrative investment.

I highlighted the important part for you. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to understand why owning a home is not always a smart decision. I further leave it to the reader to figure out the difference between variations in the local housing market versus major trends and averages in the market in general.


Buy your house first as a home and second as an investment. If you do it that way, you don't worry about losing money... you just worry about the A/C working, the roof leaking, and the damned neighbors who cut their grass at 7:30 AM on a Saturday.
 
2012-06-28 02:32:29 PM
as someone in their mid 20s that's owned a house in the country for 6 years and is looking to dump his place and move back to the city and get a high end apartment I sure am getting a kick out of these replies.

/wife left me
//tired of spending every waking minute that I'm not working driving, mowing and doing housework
///too many deers and dwis out here
////gosh darned it, there are drinking and drugs to do!
 
2012-06-28 02:32:51 PM

ZekeMacNeil: Here in Chattanooga, I remember when Brainerd was safe and Downtown was dangerous.


I talked to an old guy who was born raised and lived in a certain west coast city that is notorious for it's homosexual population. What was amazing listening to him describe history of various neighborhoods in and around the city, was how fast things could go south. Literally five years from vibrant low crime family neighborhood to wasteland of boarded up houses, closed businesses, and crime. Most of it driven by economics. Some of those neighborhoods were suburban, older smaller homes sure, but not that dense. But they went down hill in a nasty way.
 
2012-06-28 02:35:22 PM

t3knomanser: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Really big change from what it was like 5 years ago

I've lived in Shadyside for about 5 years, and if you said, "Hey, live by East Liberty!" 5 years ago, I would have- but I wouldn't have paid very much to do it. Now, East Liberty is actually a pretty desirable piece of real estate. Crazy.


It's funny: up until East Side, people used to dismiss everything north of the Busway as "East Liberty" (even though Centre Avenue is the technical boundary). Now that Whole Foods is there, Centre Avenue is back to being Shadyside.

/Conversely, it pisses off the East Liberty residents who think their neighborhood is being taken over.
 
2012-06-28 02:36:21 PM
I like living in my edge town (my term for towns that had some sense of separate identity before the (sub)urbanized area came to eat them up.)

More fun and walkable than the random subdivisions off to the east, good schools, lower costs.
 
2012-06-28 02:37:44 PM

DrewCurtisJr: downstairs: Maybe its just my experience... since I only lived in Chicago's suburbs. But I knew my way through maybe hundreds of suburbs (Chicago has a TON) and none of them were "walkable".

You said in another comment that you grew up in Naperville, there are walkable neighborhoods near downtown and the metra station. A lot more walkable than some of the neighborhoods in the city on the northwest and southwest sides. You also have Oak Park, Elmhurst, Evanston, etc...


I did. The only walkable part is their "downtown" which is tiny, and there are very few places to actually live downtown. Naperville is huge, and 90%... or more probably... is not walkable.

I- along with almost every other person in Naperville- had to drive to their walkable downtown. That's not what "walkable" means.

Same goes for your other examples.

A "walkable" city is one where the sheer majority of a city is walkable. I live in New Orleans now, very walkable. Almost every resident has walkable access to stores, bars, restaurants, and the like.

And we have the makings* of a true public transportation system.

*makings as in, it sucks right now because it doesn't access enough of the city, but we're working to change that.
 
2012-06-28 02:39:14 PM

xxcorydxx: //tired of spending every waking minute that I'm not working driving, mowing and doing housework


See, I love mowing and trimming. Granted, I only do it about once every week or so (since it hasn't rained in a few weeks, the grass hasn't needed cut). I don't keep it immaculate 24/7 however, I let it grow an extra inch or so (I would let it grow longer, but the wife hates snakes, and they love tall grass).

But yeah, if you don't like yardwork or chores, the country isn't for you.

xxcorydxx: ///too many deers and dwis out here


so, anybody else want to take this?
 
2012-06-28 02:41:44 PM

Thraeryn: Your average hipster who holds a low-to-mid-income job (or is still looking for one) can't buy a goddamned suburban house. And why would they want to? You definitely don't want to ride your fixie for three hours just to visit the Korean-Mexican fusion food truck before tonight's five-band local musician concert at Old Tyme Slum Bar & Music Hall.


OK, that was funny.
 
2012-06-28 02:43:41 PM
I live in Dallas, the worst of both the suburbs and the city.
 
2012-06-28 02:48:27 PM

Burr: cyberbenali: Yes, I miss the convenience of walking everywhere but I love the fact that we could afford a house with 2+ acres that I now grow my own garden and that the only noises I hear are the wildlife and the neighbour's chainsaw. Also, I have been working at home so I am not stuck with a crazy commute. At this point in my life, the country is where I want to be.

Everybody, don't listen to this person! The sticks are full of rednecks, republicans, bears, and inbred mountain folk who will make you "squeal like a pig"

/there, that should keep them away


I'm Canadian so we have polar bears and Québecois.

JackieRabbit: cyberbenali: The only place I truly hated living was the suburbs because nothing was close by and was still far from school.

It isn't like this in every burb. I have almost everything I need within a couple of miles. One of the finest elementary schools in the state is within walking distance. But that's only the area of town I live in. There are other burbs that tout their convenience to shopping, restaurants and other amenities. What they mean by this is that the postage stamp sized home sits on barely enough land to contain it, that there are 800 other homes just like it in the subdivision and that the subdivision sits back behind three rows of strip malls on a six lane highway that carries 120.000 cars per day. Miles and miles of ugliness and turmoil. Given the choice between this suburban horror and downtown, I'll take downtown any day.


The suburb is exactly as you described except the housing was older. FYI, I meant college, not elementary school. My commute was still close to an hour and that wasn't even to get downtown. By car, during rush hour, it takes me about the same amount of time to drive 80 miles from my place in the country than to drive the 20mi from that suburb to downtown. I can take the intercity bus and still get there faster.
 
2012-06-28 02:48:43 PM
where is all this crime?!?!

I have urban lived for 14 years. Never had any thing stolen, broken, destroyed. Never mugged. Never robbed. NOTHING.

And homeless people. What's so bad? They just sit there with a sign. They might ask you for change... you can say "no", or you give them some. I"M GETTING THE VAPORS!!!

I live in the city AND have a mortgage.

// wants a cookie.
 
2012-06-28 02:49:20 PM

Rapmaster2000: My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.


If we're down to this level of "reasons," I can only submit, with the theme from M*A*S*H, that "suicide is painless."
 
2012-06-28 02:52:27 PM

Burr: xxcorydxx: //tired of spending every waking minute that I'm not working driving, mowing and doing housework

See, I love mowing and trimming. Granted, I only do it about once every week or so (since it hasn't rained in a few weeks, the grass hasn't needed cut). I don't keep it immaculate 24/7 however, I let it grow an extra inch or so (I would let it grow longer, but the wife hates snakes, and they love tall grass).

But yeah, if you don't like yardwork or chores, the country isn't for you.

xxcorydxx: ///too many deers and dwis out here

so, anybody else want to take this?


did this on purposes, gramer notsees need not apply.
 
2012-06-28 02:53:35 PM
I think need to define suburbs, if thought I live in the suburb, but I'm a half hour to the core of the city.

Is there a time/distance thing before you become a suburb?

Also, lots of places within walking distance for coffee, food etc:

I loved my time living right downtown, but the idea of raising a family in an apartment (and the schools...ugh) made me choose to move for my kids.
 
2012-06-28 02:54:09 PM

Burr: xxcorydxx: //tired of spending every waking minute that I'm not working driving, mowing and doing housework

See, I love mowing and trimming. Granted, I only do it about once every week or so (since it hasn't rained in a few weeks, the grass hasn't needed cut). I don't keep it immaculate 24/7 however, I let it grow an extra inch or so (I would let it grow longer, but the wife hates snakes, and they love tall grass).

But yeah, if you don't like yardwork or chores, the country isn't for you.

xxcorydxx: ///too many deers and dwis out here

so, anybody else want to take this?


also, taking care of the lawn, renovating the house, and all that other isht wasn't that bad when I had someone else there to cook and clean and I wasn't out chasing tail all the time.
 
2012-06-28 02:58:07 PM

gshepnyc: I'm not young (40). No kids. Not poor. Suburbia is a slow death. Good for dullards, though. And the simple


If you need the city to keep you active and have so little to identify yourself you need to claim the place you say in your name, I am guessing you are the simple dullard.
 
2012-06-28 02:58:23 PM

t3knomanser: JackieRabbit: While I do not believe that your home should be considered an investment, anyone who knows about investing knows that owning a home is, in the long term, the cheapest form of housing and can be a lucrative investment.

I highlighted the important part for you. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to understand why owning a home is not always a smart decision. I further leave it to the reader to figure out the difference between variations in the local housing market versus major trends and averages in the market in general.

Also: renting in the suburbs is, paradoxically, almost always more expensive than renting in the city. I don't know why.


Oh, you are so right. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in is that too many people, having a $70K/yr. salary thought that they could borrow $375,000 on an ARM to buy that McMansion (or high-rise condo down in Midtown), keep it for a few years and sell it for $550,000. The stupid banks let them do it. Then those ARMs started adjusting and... "OMFG! we can't afford the mortgage anymore! We'd better sell!" But it was too late. Had they done what they should have done, paid off all consumer credit first, bought a home that cost no more that three times their gross household income, paid at least 10% down, got a standard 15 or 30 fixed-rate loan, and planned to stay put for at least 7 years (15 yr. mortgage) to 12 years (30 yr.) they'd be doing alright now (as long as they didn't lose their job). Some people made the mistake chasing the American dream and no one ever taught them how it works. Others had stars in their eyes and dreams of making big bucks in the housing market, without ever stopping to notice that a bubble was forming. Some people just cannot be still and long-term solutions are alien to them; change is what drives them.
 
2012-06-28 02:59:17 PM
Downtown Evanston is amazing, there are at least as many good places to eat and drink there as in, say, downtown St Louis.
 
2012-06-28 03:00:27 PM
Gas prices made commuting expensive. White folks came back to take the cities back over and are pushing the poor and minorities out by driving up rents.

Nowhere in Cincinnati is this more apparent than Vine Street. The city wouldn't do jack for the black business owners, but let a few white folks move in and they are bending over backwards to fix up everything and rebuild anything they can't fix.

White privilege at it's finest. Gentrification at it's worst.
 
2012-06-28 03:01:22 PM
Easier for the drones to track us when were aren't all spread out in the sticks. Getting to expensive to drive and cities have public transpo. All part of the plan.
 
2012-06-28 03:02:43 PM

halfof33: Downtown Evanston is amazing, there are at least as many good places to eat and drink there as in, say, downtown St Louis.


i1057.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-28 03:06:50 PM
gshepnyc SmartestFunniest 2012-06-28 02:21:41 PM

I'm not young (40). No kids. Not poor. Suburbia is a slow death. Good for dullards, though. And the simple.



Interesting. I thought most folks by the time they are 40, are mature enough not to judge folks on where they prefer to live. I guess I was wrong.

/dont live in the burbs yet
//but i understand
 
2012-06-28 03:07:29 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


PG County wasn't safe in the 80's.

But you needed more protection from the cops.
 
2012-06-28 03:08:52 PM

rico567: Rapmaster2000: My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.

If we're down to this level of "reasons," I can only submit, with the theme from M*A*S*H, that "suicide is painless."


You sound fat.. and old.
 
2012-06-28 03:16:16 PM

boogie_down: halfof33: Downtown Evanston is amazing, there are at least as many good places to eat and drink there as in, say, downtown St Louis.

[i1057.photobucket.com image 435x485]


quizzicaldog.jpg
 
2012-06-28 03:21:01 PM
Gee, you mean people don't like driving two hours to get to work every day? What a shock!
 
2012-06-28 03:23:13 PM

t3knomanser: DrewCurtisJr: Where are these suburbs with no restaurants in walking distance?

That would be all of them, pretty much. I can't even count the number of restaurants within a short walk of my house. Yes, I own a house. In a city. Because in residential neighborhoods, it's surprisingly affordable. Many of my neighbors have yards, because the idea that cities are concrete from horizon to horizon is also bullshiat.

Yes, you can get more land and more house for the same money in the suburbs. And if you need a 5-bedroom house on 10 acres of land, then yes, you really shouldn't be living in a city. But not everyone needs that kind of space (my house, at 1,300sq. ft. is a few hundred square feet larger than I'd like).


We rent in a suburb, which is big commuter haven into Manhattan. Our apartment has two great downtowns within walking distance: one a mile to the east, another a mile to the west. Plenty of restaurants, downtown shopping, etc, even in our dinky little town in between.

At this rate, the fiancée and I are a couple of years away from the "we can buy a house but should we phase." We love our area: less than an hour from the big city lights, great local downtowns, everything you need is walkable. But buying a house feels so permanent. I don't think I'd mind renting for a while still. We still have those lofty dreams of hitting the Oregon Trail to Portland or maybe down to San Diego. Renting affords that flexibility but unless you can swing the rent, it's tough to find fantastic rental In these parts.
 
2012-06-28 03:28:44 PM
It's hilarious how some people think where they live makes them smarter than everybody else.

It's a preference, that's all.
 
2012-06-28 03:29:06 PM

Hermione_Granger: Gas prices made commuting expensive. White folks came back to take the cities back over and are pushing the poor and minorities out by driving up rents.

Nowhere in Cincinnati is this more apparent than Vine Street. The city wouldn't do jack for the black business owners, but let a few white folks move in and they are bending over backwards to fix up everything and rebuild anything they can't fix.

White privilege at it's finest. Gentrification at it's worst.


i48.tinypic.com

Reading it in her voice like she's responding to a teacher's question is really weird.
 
2012-06-28 03:30:50 PM

Thraeryn: Your average hipster who holds a low-to-mid-income job (or is still looking for one) can't buy a goddamned suburban house. And why would they want to? You definitely don't want to ride your fixie for three hours just to visit the Korean-Mexican fusion food truck before tonight's five-band local musician concert at Old Tyme Slum Bar & Music Hall.


Read that over and over again with great pleasure.
 
2012-06-28 03:31:15 PM

cyberbenali: The suburb is exactly as you described except the housing was older. FYI, I meant college, not elementary school. My commute was still close to an hour and that wasn't even to get downtown. By car, during rush hour, it takes me about the same amount of time to drive 80 miles from my place in the country than to drive the 20mi from that suburb to downtown. I can take the intercity bus and still get there faster.


Here's what they did to some of the older suburbs here - the ones with nice, modest homes and one-acre yards. Developers would by up whole neighborhoods, demolish the homes and streets, build new ones at three times the density, and throw up strip malls, etc. Of course, bad urban planning allowed this to happen with no improvement to highway infrastructure or expansion of schools. The result was traffic snarls, pollution and overcrowded schools. In some of these areas, the people's 20 mile commute increased from 35-40 minutes to 1.5-2.5 hours. Worse, some of these tear down and rebuild project started just before the bust and were never completed. The developers went bust and walked away, leaving eyesores and boarded up, half-completed houses.

Unfortunately for us, there is no intercity bus service here. That my place in the mountains is so far away is a boon and a problem. I'd love to go live there, but the commute of over 100 miles over the mountains on a daily basis is just not practical. I'm hoping that as I get closer to retirement, my employer will allow me to become a remote employee. I already work from there occasionally and I get to work from home two days per week. The days I don't have to drive to the office are less stressful and more productive. I only live 12 mi from work and a road improvement project that is near completion has trimmed nearly 30 minutes off my commute, but it's still a pain. Living downtown would be only slightly better, since Atlanta's public transportation system sucks and it has a rather large downtown area. Some of the younger people I work with live there and commute out to the work. They don't want to take the train. One guy did it right. He was renting in Midtown and then got himself a really sweet post-bust deal on a condo in a new high-rise just across the street from office. His commute, is a three minute stroll. And there's a supermarket and several restaurants on the way. So there are distinct advantages.
 
2012-06-28 03:39:03 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: It's hilarious how some people think where they live makes them smarter than everybody else.

It's a preference, that's all.


No doubt. Look at this guy who thinks he knows what people he doesn't even know will want in 10 years.

Smelly Pirate Hooker


Smartest
Funniest

2012-06-28 12:32:42 PM

FTFA: "Primary cities in large metropolitan areas with populations of more than 1 million grew by 1.1 percent last year, compared with 0.9 percent in surrounding suburbs."

Wow, that is a stunning rate of growth. No wonder there's a story about it. And a quote from a young person who will change her mind once she figures out how much a home that will accommodate a family costs in a major city, plus how very shiatty the schools are there. She and her husband will either have to make enough money to buy a house and send their kids to private school, or they'll move to the 'burbs.


It's important that you're being humble.
 
2012-06-28 03:43:42 PM
I live in a suburb, if you consider the San Fernando Valley a suburb.
But what I pay to rent a house for $1900/mo would cost close to 3200/mo
in West LA. Lots of stuff nearby, and but not close enough to walk, but in the
SFV, why would I wanna walk somewhere when it's 90 degrees?

And I work 3 miles from home.
 
2012-06-28 03:45:59 PM
You know who is to blame.

img189.imageshack.us
 
2012-06-28 03:48:24 PM

Stoker: You know who is to blame.

[img189.imageshack.us image 629x340]


Why Obama, of course.
 
2012-06-28 03:51:02 PM

Rapmaster2000: Smelly Pirate Hooker: It's hilarious how some people think where they live makes them smarter than everybody else.

It's a preference, that's all.

No doubt. Look at this guy who thinks he knows what people he doesn't even know will want in 10 years.

Smelly Pirate Hooker


Smartest
Funniest

2012-06-28 12:32:42 PM

FTFA: "Primary cities in large metropolitan areas with populations of more than 1 million grew by 1.1 percent last year, compared with 0.9 percent in surrounding suburbs."

Wow, that is a stunning rate of growth. No wonder there's a story about it. And a quote from a young person who will change her mind once she figures out how much a home that will accommodate a family costs in a major city, plus how very shiatty the schools are there. She and her husband will either have to make enough money to buy a house and send their kids to private school, or they'll move to the 'burbs.

It's important that you're being humble.


Your point doesn't make any sense. Just in case you didn't notice. I know you're probably too busy being fabulous and superior while living in the big city.
 
2012-06-28 03:56:40 PM

Kuroshin: We're actually looking to do the reverse. Been living in the 'burbs too long. Everything we like to do is in town, which means a gnarly commute, especially if drinking is going to be involved. Everything out here is nice, quiet, and we don't have to worry about somebody knicking our stuff, but there is NOTHING to do but stay home or go to a fern bar for crappy drinks served in little sand buckets or lava lamps.

Hard to find a place in town with a big enough garage/parking area for two cars and three bikes though.


We lived in the 'burbs for nine years before moving into the city last year. It was the best thing we ever did. No more yard work, I can walk to my job, a supermarket, a drugstore and my gym if I want, it's very much a front porch neighborhood (we hardly ever saw our neighbors in the 'burbs), lots of good restaurants close by, and since Richmond's not that big of a city there's not a lot of noise. Yeah, I've seen drug deals go down and you have to make sure your car is locked and nothing of value is in sight in it and things get a little shooty on New Year's Eve, but we feel like we're part of a community. It's awesome.
 
2012-06-28 04:01:31 PM

JackieRabbit: cyberbenali: The suburb is exactly as you described except the housing was older. FYI, I meant college, not elementary school. My commute was still close to an hour and that wasn't even to get downtown. By car, during rush hour, it takes me about the same amount of time to drive 80 miles from my place in the country than to drive the 20mi from that suburb to downtown. I can take the intercity bus and still get there faster.

Unfortunately for us, there is no intercity bus service here. That my place in the mountains is so far away is a boon and a problem. I'd love to go live there, but the commute of over 100 miles over the mountains on a daily basis is just not practical. I'm hoping that as I get closer to retirement, my employer will allow me to become a remote employee. I already work from there occasionally and I get to work from home two days per week. The days I don't have to drive to the office are less stressful and more productive. I only live 12 mi from work and a road improvement project that is near completion has trimmed nearly 30 minutes off my commute, but it's still a pain. Living downtown would be only slightly better, since Atlanta's public transportation system sucks and it has a rather large ...


I really lucked out here because I live far enough out of town that there will likely not be sprawl but close enough that we have high-speed internet. Also, the bus is 7 mins away and revitalized as a commuter option so I used it for one year until we got the second car. Mind you, I only had to go in twice a month so it wasn't a big deal. I enjoy working at home but I a) won't do it forever or b) work part of the week at home. I am fortunate that there is a large-ish city within 25 minutes.
 
2012-06-28 04:02:02 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker:

Your point doesn't make any sense. Just in case you didn't notice. I know you're probably too busy being fabulous and superior while living in the big city.


Nobody's buying your "other people think they're smart, but it's just a choice... I'm different" routine. Every decision you make is because you think it's smart. Why would you make a lifestyle choice if you thought it was dumb? Of course you think your decision is smart.

If it makes you feel better, everyone with the ability to live where they want to thinks their decision is smart. I'm not singling you out. I'm only mocking your platitude which you can't even hold on to over the course of a thread.

Also, Protip: Don't ever say "you think you're so superior" to anyone. It makes you sound insecure. It sounds like "I think you're so superior".
 
2012-06-28 04:07:19 PM
McMansion!!

farm6.static.flickr.com
 
2012-06-28 04:14:20 PM
I expected this thread to be full of delusional suburbanites who LOVE their .2 acre lot with a McMansion that has a .15 acre footprint, and which you have to drive 2 miles to get to the 'convenience' store that's half a mile away as the bird flies. And the closest bar is a 5 mile drive away through 2 DUI checkpoints because the local NIMBYs would flip their shiat if a bar were to appear near their gated subdivision. And they rationalize their living in the suburbs by saying the public schools are so much better, even though they send their kids to private school. And they biatch non-stop when the local public school attempts to pass a tax referendum because the textbooks are all from the '80s.

/pleasantly surprised
//would add something about the 30 year mortgage being underwater, but I think that's a given nowadays.
 
2012-06-28 04:15:22 PM

Rapmaster2000: Kuroshin: Rapmaster2000: My wife's friend and her husband moved out to the burbs. It takes us 40 minutes to drive out and see them. Consequently, they don't do anything now but sit in their giant house and watch TV. They're really packing on the pounds. Avoiding getting fat is reason enough not to move to the burbs.

We're actually looking to do the reverse. Been living in the 'burbs too long. Everything we like to do is in town, which means a gnarly commute, especially if drinking is going to be involved. Everything out here is nice, quiet, and we don't have to worry about somebody knicking our stuff, but there is NOTHING to do but stay home or go to a fern bar for crappy drinks served in little sand buckets or lava lamps.

Hard to find a place in town with a big enough garage/parking area for two cars and three bikes though.

I have a few friends who did that. They moved out there and then moved back. If you don't have kids then really there's no point in moving out there. I got a suburban apartment straight out of college and lived in it for one year. Now, that sucks. Being single and away from anything fun to do is killer. Especially after you spent the previous four years partying every day.

I do have one 40 something male friend out in the burbs and he says having sex with divorcees at suburban bars is about the easiest thing in the world. So there's always that though.


I'll have to keep that in mind. Then again, there's better tail in town. On top of that, the townie-tail doesn't want to ride all the way out to the 'burbs for an after-party, because they'll either have to bus it or catch a potentially awkward ride back. Living in the 'burbs is for boring people, as you said.



spentmiles: (Bunch of BS...)


Some of us aren't Milquetoast. Live in the 'burbs and want a good meal at a fine restaurant? Drive an hour each way - don't forget to pay for parking. Maybe you want to see a show? Repeat. Perhaps a night out living it up at a club or just some good-ol' bar-hopping? (fern bars don't count) Now you're talking taxi, unless you want to chance it on a DUI.

The best food and entertainment aren't found in the 'burbs. Every interesting thing to do involves a commute.
 
2012-06-28 04:22:22 PM

Marisyana: Kuroshin: We're actually looking to do the reverse. Been living in the 'burbs too long. Everything we like to do is in town, which means a gnarly commute, especially if drinking is going to be involved. Everything out here is nice, quiet, and we don't have to worry about somebody knicking our stuff, but there is NOTHING to do but stay home or go to a fern bar for crappy drinks served in little sand buckets or lava lamps.

Hard to find a place in town with a big enough garage/parking area for two cars and three bikes though.

We lived in the 'burbs for nine years before moving into the city last year. It was the best thing we ever did. No more yard work, I can walk to my job, a supermarket, a drugstore and my gym if I want, it's very much a front porch neighborhood (we hardly ever saw our neighbors in the 'burbs), lots of good restaurants close by, and since Richmond's not that big of a city there's not a lot of noise. Yeah, I've seen drug deals go down and you have to make sure your car is locked and nothing of value is in sight in it and things get a little shooty on New Year's Eve, but we feel like we're part of a community. It's awesome.


And ya know, that's another thing. Everybody in the 'burbs is so damn hostile. Each little plot is an enclave unto itself. Talking to a neighbor is a rare event. I'm not the most social person in the world, but I've always been friendly to those living around me. I have never seen the level of cloistered living and general distrust anywhere outside of the 'burbs. I came from a rural town where everybody knew everybody else, spent some time homeless, then moved to the 'burbs once I got back on my feet and it's just insane how sketchy everybody is toward everybody else - as if they are all trying to live in their own little dream world, and other people are rude intrusions. The only reason I know any of my neighbors is because we're bikers. Like you said, there is no community out here. Not that I especially *need* one, but it's just jarring how *nobody* wants anything to do with each other.
 
2012-06-28 04:26:27 PM
I'm sure this runs counter to the primary sentiment in the thread but life is not an either/or proposition. My wife and I both work largely from our house in a close by suburb of Fort Worth. Took us 5 years of hard work to get our professional situations arranged this way, with lots of BS in between, but now it's the perfect setup. No commuting, good schools, 15 minutes to kick ass downtown Fort Worth when we go, which is never in rush hour times.

May sound like I'm gloating, and maybe I am a bit, but you don't HAVE to spend hours a day commuting OR live in a tiny box with shiatty inner city schools. And, BTW, my neighborhood is roughly proportionate to national ethnic/racial percentages. Contrary to popular opinion suburbanites are not only fat white people. Our jogging and biking trails and swimming pool sport fat people of every skin color!
 
2012-06-28 04:43:33 PM

downstairs: Same goes for your other examples.


What? What parts of any of those towns aren't walkable?
 
2012-06-28 04:48:35 PM
Quiet is relative.

I grew up in the country. I dealt with noise from cows, farmers at the break of dawn and blood hounds that never shutup.

I move to the city. I deal with vehicles at all times of the day and night along with motorcycles.

I move to the suburbs and I deal with the train and loud brats(God's children) making noises all the time.

I currently live on an island in the Caribbean in what is considered the "country" cause it's a house. What do I have to listen to every morning? Damn roosters that don't ever know what time of the day it is. It's so much worse than the trains in Richmond, the blood hounds, the Harley Davidson motorcycles, the city buses with bad breaks or even the gunshots ringing out!

Granted, I spend only 50% of my time there and the other half in hotels but you get use to your surroundings.

I hate the suburbs...boring as shiat and you have to drive everywhere. Cookie cutter houses with chain restaurants. Yuck.
I'd rather pay good money for a great location rather than more space.
 
2012-06-28 04:56:18 PM

Devo: [i49.tinypic.com image 218x250]

Even the warriors are thinking of moving back to the city.


Cowboy: Okay, what are we gonna do now?
Swan: We're going back.
Vermin: You mind tellin' me how? farkin' Coney Island must be 50 to 100 miles from here!
Swan: It's the only choice we got.

Well, Devo, it's the only choice they've got.
 
2012-06-28 05:13:14 PM

rubi_con_man: thecpt: So based on population? Makes sense. More renters in the city and that's the thing to do now, not home ownership. My line of work has been converting a lot of industrial inner city buildings to actual apartments. Seems to be a trend.

Cities can be made very human and humane. Suburbs have a kind of enforced sterility on them.


silly troll, scratch that and reverse it. but i did snicker.
 
2012-06-28 05:29:39 PM

Burr: As long as you all stay out of the sticks, then do whatever the hell you want!

/walks outside naked, pees off his front porch
//saving water


Is that what those ruffians in the city are doing when they pee of their porches onto the sidewalk? Saving water?

I use to HATE visiting my inlaws in SW Philly. Quite a scary neighborhood. The suburbs are far, far nicer to me. I don't mind getting in the car and getting out of the house for 20 minutes or so to go get some milk.
 
2012-06-28 06:28:05 PM
I don't really care to waste time and fossil fuels for the "luxury" of living far away from everything. Thus, the city it is! Of course, I live in a small city. I don't know how people lived piled on each other in the bigger cities.
 
2012-06-28 06:43:57 PM

Walker: That's because all the riff raff are moving out to the suburbs now because it's getting too expensive to live in the cities. An example of this is Washington D.C. and P.G. County, Maryland. Don't go to P.G. County, ever, it's not safe there. If someone asks you to meet them in cities with names such as Landover, Largo, or Oxen Hill say "HELL TO THE NO!"


I been living in Landover, MD for two years (moved from Southwest Philadelphia), Although I don't have issues but parking there is this this ghetto/hood feel to it although I am paying $1000+ rent.

I work in Largo on McCormick Drive. Driving from Landover Road the drive is quite nice with all the trees.
 
2012-06-28 07:13:10 PM

Rapmaster2000: Smelly Pirate Hooker:

Your point doesn't make any sense. Just in case you didn't notice. I know you're probably too busy being fabulous and superior while living in the big city.

Nobody's buying your "other people think they're smart, but it's just a choice... I'm different" routine. Every decision you make is because you think it's smart. Why would you make a lifestyle choice if you thought it was dumb? Of course you think your decision is smart.

If it makes you feel better, everyone with the ability to live where they want to thinks their decision is smart. I'm not singling you out. I'm only mocking your platitude which you can't even hold on to over the course of a thread.

Also, Protip: Don't ever say "you think you're so superior" to anyone. It makes you sound insecure. It sounds like "I think you're so superior".


Thanks for proving me right.
 
2012-06-28 08:55:22 PM
As a suburbanite I see this as something that can be very good or very bad. If all the poor folks come streaming out of the crapholes that are the cities and into the burbs then it will be a very sad thing. If on the other hand everyone starts leaving the burbs for the cities, then its all good. I always wanted to live in the country and would be quite thrilled if half the homes on my block were abandoned and leveled. People make fun of Detroit but when I see those aerial shots of blocks where only 1 in 10 homes are left I dream about how awesome it would be to have all that space around me.
 
2012-06-28 09:25:12 PM

t3knomanser: verbaltoxin: but I'm beyond wanting to live there. It happens when you grow out of your 20's.

/And it'll happen to yooooouuuuuuu!!!!

Well, I'm in my thirties. I'll keep my eye open for the symptoms of being old, and try and seek early treatment.


Same.
 
2012-06-28 10:13:39 PM
Office is in the 'burbs, home is in the city.

/Getting a kick out of these posts
 
2012-06-29 12:08:02 AM
So I've done the suburbs (twice) and downtown Boston.

Suburbs:
Better schools.
You need a car, but in exchange you have a car, so everything is close, and in the meantime, you can get 2 weeks worth of groceries in one go, and not have to hoof it a mile to get home.
Nice, safe walkable downtown with shops and parks and random bands playing in the pavilion at night (even if the grocery store is not downtown, but as previously mentioned, if you're walking to the grocery store, you're doing it wrong).
Everything is so cheap. I can buy 2 months worth of food for under $100. (I'm boring and work provides lunch though).
My house is huge. $100K gets me (or actually my parents) 1300 sq ft with 1300 sq ft of basement. And we have 2 yards that are each bigger than the house, which I haven't seen even in the Boston suburbs.

City:
Terrible transportation. Even with mass transit, it still takes 30+ minutes to go 2 miles if you catch the timing perfectly (Once took an hour and a half). And if you want to go anywhere not on the subway, good luck with that (Buses come every half hour, so screw that).
Commute is even worse. Takes between 40 and 90 minutes to get to/from work (Walk to subway -> subway -> more walking) each day and that's 8 miles.
No way to have a car. Parking is $4K/year in my neighborhood. I can't afford $4K/year. And that means that if I want to leave the Boston area, I can't. (Unless I do shenanigans with trains, and even than, I'm limited to areas trains serve). I did a limited Costco run, and it took 4 hours.
I can't do a grocery run. I'm basically limited to what I can reasonably carry in my arms a mile or so back to my house, which isn't a lot. Which means food is way more expensive since I can't go to [Big Box Store]. I know that there are supposed to be all these cool places to eat, but I just don't have the cash.
300 sq ft POS apartment -> $1800/month. THE FARK?
farking smokers. Can't walk 5 feet without hitting a smoker, which means that I have a hacking cough that isn't going away from all the smoke, and I can't open my window in my apartment or my apartment will smell like smoke.

I get that the city is supposed to be cool and all, but since 2 miles in the city ~= 30 miles outside of it in terms of travel time/range, there's just more stuff to do in the suburbs. And meanwhile my health and quality of life improve dramatically (The hacking cough usually goes away by mid-May. I'm starting to get a little bit worried).
 
2012-06-29 07:37:41 AM

meyerkev: Terrible transportation. Even with mass transit, it still takes 30+ minutes to go 2 miles if you catch the timing perfectly (Once took an hour and a half).


And you can't walk that?
 
2012-06-29 09:51:46 AM

liam76: meyerkev: Terrible transportation. Even with mass transit, it still takes 30+ minutes to go 2 miles if you catch the timing perfectly (Once took an hour and a half).

And you can't walk that?


In 40 or so. And when its 97 and muggy (like today is going to be), I'd much rather sit in a dark cool underground tunnel for a few minutes than walk a couple miles.
 
2012-06-29 10:04:44 AM

meyerkev: liam76: meyerkev: Terrible transportation. Even with mass transit, it still takes 30+ minutes to go 2 miles if you catch the timing perfectly (Once took an hour and a half).

And you can't walk that?

In 40 or so. And when its 97 and muggy (like today is going to be), I'd much rather sit in a dark cool underground tunnel for a few minutes than walk a couple miles.


damn slow walkers...


although if I am in work clothes I woudl opt for the bus, as I would get there faster walking, I would also be sweaty...
 
2012-06-29 02:27:28 PM

Dscharf766: I lived my first 25 years in NYC, moving to the Suburbs to raise a family, was and continues to be a great way to live. There is no correct answer, it all depends on your life experiences and what your interests are.


Too polite. You're supposed to be blaming Generation Y, calling them hipsters, complaining about gas prices while telling the world of Fark how big your house is.


Personally, I blame Sesame Street.
 
2012-06-29 06:35:45 PM

downstairs: DrewCurtisJr: t3knomanser: That would be all of them, pretty much.

No it wouldn't. There are plenty of suburbs that are walkable if that's what you desire. And when you have kids are you going to be dining out every night?

Maybe its just my experience... since I only lived in Chicago's suburbs. But I knew my way through maybe hundreds of suburbs (Chicago has a TON) and none of them were "walkable".

At best you have a 1 out of 10 chance of being at a walkable distance to a convenience store, like I did growing up. That's about it though.

I've lived in about 4-5 suburbs over 30 years. Nothing was "walkable" by any definition I can come up with.


For the most part you are right. However, the bf and I found somewhat of a sweet spot in Schaumburg. There are a lot of nice things within walking distance, and the rent is reasonable.
 
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