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(BBC)   Spain is collapsing under debt and the solution is jointly issued EU bonds allowing the continent to default in unison   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 43
    More: Scary, Spanish Prime Minister, Spain, Chancellor Angela Merkel, EU summit, German Chancellor, Prime Minister of Italy, monetary union, EFSF  
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3760 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2012 at 10:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



43 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-06-28 10:23:01 AM
Never been to Spain Well I never been to Spain But I kinda like the music.

/Say the ladies are insane there.
//And they sure know how to use it.
 
2012-06-28 10:23:20 AM
The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.
 
2012-06-28 10:23:46 AM
IN OTHER NEWS, OBAMACARE JUST GOT APPROVED BY THE SCOTUS. Now, back to your regular programming.
 
2012-06-28 10:24:15 AM
It is starting to sound like a family with one or two moderately successful members and a gang of undisciplined spendthrifts.

We don't have to watch our spending, Uncle Germany will bail us out.
 
2012-06-28 10:24:16 AM
Well between the fears of the Euro deflating and possible Chinese inflation, it's a great time for the USD. So umh yeah, party on?
 
2012-06-28 10:27:07 AM

trailerpimp: You can't have open borders and run a welfare state


What the hell do open borders have with giving corporations massive amounts of government welfare?

Oh, right, its the poor people ruining it for everybody, not the huge companies that get government "subsidies".
 
2012-06-28 10:27:20 AM

MONSTERTRUCK: IN OTHER NEWS, OBAMACARE JUST GOT APPROVED BY THE SCOTUS. Now, back to your regular programming.


I have to make popcorn before that glorious thread gets greenlit!!!
 
2012-06-28 10:27:26 AM

trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.



Amazingly enough, the population that doesn't want to work yet still get paid, vote for anti-austerity measures and anti-austerity politicians.

Oddly enough, this causes the cities and states to falter even more.
 
2012-06-28 10:28:14 AM

MONSTERTRUCK: IN OTHER NEWS, OBAMACARE JUST GOT APPROVED BY THE SCOTUS. Now, back to your regular programming.


Wrong thread.
 
2012-06-28 10:35:20 AM

Ivo Shandor: MONSTERTRUCK: IN OTHER NEWS, OBAMACARE JUST GOT APPROVED BY THE SCOTUS. Now, back to your regular programming.

Wrong thread.


Nice.
 
2012-06-28 10:36:59 AM

MONSTERTRUCK: IN OTHER NEWS, OBAMACARE JUST GOT APPROVED BY THE SCOTUS. Now, back to your regular programming.


And today, we get to celebrate becoming more like Europe! Yay!
 
2012-06-28 10:38:04 AM

trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.


You clearly know nothing about the history of the Euro. Please stop with the BS talking points.
 
2012-06-28 10:46:20 AM

max_pooper: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

You clearly know nothing about the history of the Euro. Please stop with the BS talking points.


www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com
 
2012-06-28 10:51:14 AM

trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.


Um, the Brits use the pound.
I know it easy to condemn lazy Greeks and Spaniards but regardless of how their populace is voting it is the Central Banking System that is propping the global economy up at this point. The PIIGS, France, U.S., Japan, United Kingdom and Canada, 7 of the top 10 producing nations are all drowning in debt. The problem is more systemic than lazy socialist euro scum. If the Greeks and Spaniards are lazy then so is the rest of industrialized world, which may not be far from the truth. I won't begin to pretend I have any answers, (are than any at this point?), but having such a narrow point of view about a global problem is unfair and unproductive, but then again that seems to be the order of the day.
 
2012-06-28 10:53:30 AM

TrainingWheelsNeeded: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

Um, the Brits use the pound.
I know it easy to condemn lazy Greeks and Spaniards but regardless of how their populace is voting it is the Central Banking System that is propping the global economy up at this point. The PIIGS, France, U.S., Japan, United Kingdom and Canada, 7 of the top 10 producing nations are all drowning in debt. The problem is more systemic than lazy socialist euro scum. If the Greeks and Spaniards are lazy then so is the rest of industrialized world, which may not be far from the truth. I won't begin to pretend I have any answers, (are than any at this point?), but having such a narrow point of view about a global problem is unfair and unproductive, but then again that seems to be the order of the day.


I was reading somewhere recently that a big part of Greece's issue is taxation. That is, that not paying taxes is almost a sort of national past time.
 
2012-06-28 11:06:16 AM

pxlboy: TrainingWheelsNeeded: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

Um, the Brits use the pound.
I know it easy to condemn lazy Greeks and Spaniards but regardless of how their populace is voting it is the Central Banking System that is propping the global economy up at this point. The PIIGS, France, U.S., Japan, United Kingdom and Canada, 7 of the top 10 producing nations are all drowning in debt. The problem is more systemic than lazy socialist euro scum. If the Greeks and Spaniards are lazy then so is the rest of industrialized world, which may not be far from the truth. I won't begin to pretend I have any answers, (are than any at this point?), but having such a narrow point of view about a global problem is unfair and unproductive, but then again that seems to be the order of the day.

I was reading somewhere recently that a big part of Greece's issue is taxation. That is, that not paying taxes is almost a sort of national past time.


Certainly, I've read similar if not the same reports and what is consistent is that the corruption is from the top down; huge corporations, government officials and wealthy businessmen evading taxes. It seemed to be more of an issue of how broken their (our?) government and commerce systems are and not so much Nikolas and Pedro holding their hands out.
 
2012-06-28 11:26:12 AM
United States of Germany. Sign ze papers, old man!
 
2012-06-28 11:35:09 AM
So...how will this affect La Liga?
 
2012-06-28 11:36:49 AM
b-b-but they just beat portugal yesterday in the shootout.
 
2012-06-28 11:53:16 AM

trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.

It's for us that good job that Britain isn't in the Euro this isn't it.

/only good thing Brown did was keep us out
 
2012-06-28 12:01:15 PM

The Chob: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece. It's for us that good job that Britain isn't in the Euro this isn't it.

/only good thing Brown did was keep us out


He was busy jumping into all the other puddles. Old Brown and his Wellies.
 
2012-06-28 12:08:35 PM

Tricky Chicken: It is starting to sound like a family with one or two moderately successful members and a gang of undisciplined spendthrifts.

We don't have to watch our spending, Uncle Germany will bail us out.


Spain has a much better record on compliance with the euro fiscal rules than Germany does. (Ireland too). Germany's compliance record before 2011 is only slightly better than Italy when it comes to budget deficits.

Link

Link
 
2012-06-28 12:27:00 PM

Tricky Chicken: It is starting to sound like a family with one or two moderately successful members and a gang of undisciplined spendthrifts.

We don't have to watch our spending, Uncle Germany will bail us out.


^THIS FTW.

Turns out that the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.

That and Germany really never liked the others anyway.
 
2012-06-28 12:39:47 PM

cchris_39: Turns out that the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.


And the problem with capitalism is that the capitalists run out of workers to steal money from. It's almost as if neither ideal system works in the messy real world and you need to use a little bit of both, isn't it?

Or does thinking make your head hurt, so you outsource it to your betters?
 
2012-06-28 01:09:48 PM

CheatCommando: cchris_39: Turns out that the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.

And the problem with capitalism is that the capitalists run out of workers to steal money from. It's almost as if neither ideal system works in the messy real world and you need to use a little bit of both, isn't it?

Or does thinking make your head hurt, so you outsource it to your betters?


I would say (and many would say I'm wrong) that socialism seems to work for the things that everybody needs, and capitalism for things everybody wants.

Healthcare-socialism
police force-socialism
fire department-socialism
roads-socialism
retirement-socialism

Cars-capitalism
giant houses-capitalism
vacations-capitalism
jewelry-capitalism
retirement-capitalism
 
2012-06-28 01:10:34 PM
Ivo Shandor: THANKS FOR THE HEAD'S UP! I WENT OVER THERE! MINE'S THE ONLY sole not caps COMMENT ON THAT THREAD!

/LOLCAPS!
 
2012-06-28 01:34:05 PM
Can someone explain to me how a country can get out of debt? I mean, if we're all paying interest (in essence creating money) how do we get more money into the system to pay things off? We can print it, but that farks us over long-run right?
 
2012-06-28 01:48:18 PM

blipponaut: Can someone explain to me how a country can get out of debt? I mean, if we're all paying interest (in essence creating money) how do we get more money into the system to pay things off? We can print it, but that farks us over long-run right?


'Paying interest' is NOT creating money.

Just for a second, think of a country like a corporation or a person. You get out of debt by taking in more money than your expenses, and using the balance to pay down your debt balance.

That being said.....

There's more to it than that. There's printing money (allowing M1, M3, or equivalents to increase), having the central bank adjust interest rates directly, having the central bank influence interest rates indirectly by buying or selling existing sovereign debt instruments, etc.

Bottom line.
Greece has 2 problems.
(1) the citizens, bankers, and politicians have been avoiding taxes, cooking the books, and generally farking with the system for so long that nobody knows what the true situation is, other than "bad".
(2) they are hamstrung by being in a currency union with a country that abhors inflation and has a highly productive economy (Germany, the Euro) and therefore they can't devalue their currency; Devaluation does two things - it inflates away debt, and it makes exports and tourism more profitable.

Spain is similar, but with a much smaller amount of corruption. The Spanish government deficit/debt is actually fine; it's the private sector that's untenable.

The EU can go two ways:
A: Let the weaklings leave the Euro so they can devalue their way back to prosperity, and in the meanwhile truly enforce the restrictions on the remaining members of the Eurozone so they can't cheat any more.

B: Create a true political union to enforce & back up the currency union. That means a single banking regulator/deposit insurance/bailout agency - like the FDIC - across the Eurozone. National debt subordinated to EU-wide government financing. EU-wide tax collection, instead of national government taxation. And of course, practically speaking, that means the the various national parliaments would become subordinate to the EU parliament. In shorthand, a true federal system and the United States of Europe.

Unfortunately, neither alternative is palatable to a large swath of the populace and/or the politicos.

The current 'muddle along' approach just puts the pain off for a few months at a time.
 
2012-06-28 02:01:53 PM

blipponaut: Can someone explain to me how a country can get out of debt? I mean, if we're all paying interest (in essence creating money) how do we get more money into the system to pay things off? We can print it, but that farks us over long-run right?


Well backed Fiat currencies depend upon the productivity of the issuing country. You tax that productivity to create a revenue stream for the various services provided by the government.

So to answer your question (how to get out of debt) the solution is a) increase taxes and b) get everyone to work so they have income (derived from productivity) to tax. You then pay for the government services that people need and want.

You get in trouble when you don't do both. Norway does both, Germany does both. Those who are in trouble have failed to do at least part of either a or b.

The other angle that a number of people believe is that you can cut government services to zero. Generally doesn't work, as the most expensive government services are also the most popular.
 
2012-06-28 02:50:03 PM

trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.


huh? Greeks work more hours than almost any other country in the eurozone

goddamn farking stop listening to your american talking heads

the whole goddamn financial mess was caused by americans in the first place.. had that not happened the euro zone wouldn't be in this mess
 
2012-06-28 02:55:00 PM
here are the charts, it shows greeks are 2nd in working the longest hours but 20th in productivity per hour worked



Link
 
2012-06-28 03:02:38 PM

Tricky Chicken: It is starting to sound like a family with one or two moderately successful members and a gang of undisciplined spendthrifts.

We don't have to watch our spending, Uncle Germany will bail us out.


Except in Spain's (and Ireland's) case the spendthrifts were the banks and they transfered private debt into public debt.
 
2012-06-28 03:27:36 PM

ontariolightning: here are the charts, it shows greeks are 2nd in working the longest hours but 20th in productivity per hour worked



Are they not working when they are at work, or are they billing for hours they aren't even there?
 
2012-06-28 03:39:45 PM
New Finance Minister Tyler Durdon will get the debt to zero
 
2012-06-28 03:46:06 PM

ontariolightning: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

huh? Greeks work more hours than almost any other country in the eurozone

goddamn farking stop listening to your american talking heads

the whole goddamn financial mess was caused by americans in the first place.. had that not happened the euro zone wouldn't be in this mess


It doesn't matter how much the Greeks work, the problem is two-fold. They don't pay taxes. Cheating on your taxes seems to me one of the favorite national past-times in Greece. Second, two much expectations of a free lunch from the government. Combined, that guarantees a disaster.

Also, go fark yourself. Don't blame us for your mistakes. We didn't create your EU and we didn't pass your laws. This is your own private mess.
 
2012-06-28 04:01:39 PM

OgreMagi: ontariolightning: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

huh? Greeks work more hours than almost any other country in the eurozone

goddamn farking stop listening to your american talking heads

the whole goddamn financial mess was caused by americans in the first place.. had that not happened the euro zone wouldn't be in this mess

It doesn't matter how much the Greeks work, the problem is two-fold. They don't pay taxes. Cheating on your taxes seems to me one of the favorite national past-times in Greece. Second, two much expectations of a free lunch from the government. Combined, that guarantees a disaster.

Also, go fark yourself. Don't blame us for your mistakes. We didn't create your EU and we didn't pass your laws. This is your own private mess.


Not a euro, but yes, it all started in the U.S in 2008 when you brought the economy down
then it was a domino effect and the domino's are not done falling
 
2012-06-28 04:05:22 PM
This thread...

encrypted-tbn2.google.com
 
2012-06-28 05:00:02 PM

ontariolightning: OgreMagi: ontariolightning: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

huh? Greeks work more hours than almost any other country in the eurozone

goddamn farking stop listening to your american talking heads

the whole goddamn financial mess was caused by americans in the first place.. had that not happened the euro zone wouldn't be in this mess

It doesn't matter how much the Greeks work, the problem is two-fold. They don't pay taxes. Cheating on your taxes seems to me one of the favorite national past-times in Greece. Second, two much expectations of a free lunch from the government. Combined, that guarantees a disaster.

Also, go fark yourself. Don't blame us for your mistakes. We didn't create your EU and we didn't pass your laws. This is your own private mess.

Not a euro, but yes, it all started in the U.S in 2008 when you brought the economy down
then it was a domino effect and the domino's are not done falling


The world economy collapsing was the sum of stupid on the part of ALL nations.

However, I'm willing to let this go. We'll call it even for WW1 and WW2.
 
2012-06-28 05:17:05 PM

CheatCommando: cchris_39: Turns out that the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.

And the problem with capitalism is that the capitalists run out of workers to steal money from. It's almost as if neither ideal system works in the messy real world and you need to use a little bit of both, isn't it?

Or does thinking make your head hurt, so you outsource it to your betters?


Working = stealing from you.........ok

/can almost see your Che t-shirt and oil buring POS with save the environment bumper stickers, lol
 
2012-06-28 05:53:44 PM
*sigh* .... New Rule: The next time Germany starts taking over Europe, let them win.
 
2012-06-28 06:35:00 PM

OgreMagi: ontariolightning: OgreMagi: ontariolightning: trailerpimp: The Euro is doomed as some countries who do work like Britain and Germany have to prop up countries who won't work like Spain and Greece.
And unfortunately, the USA is heading in the same direction

You can't have open borders and run a welfare state. It's unsustainable. And even the rich will eventually figure it out and stop working.

huh? Greeks work more hours than almost any other country in the eurozone

goddamn farking stop listening to your american talking heads

the whole goddamn financial mess was caused by americans in the first place.. had that not happened the euro zone wouldn't be in this mess

It doesn't matter how much the Greeks work, the problem is two-fold. They don't pay taxes. Cheating on your taxes seems to me one of the favorite national past-times in Greece. Second, two much expectations of a free lunch from the government. Combined, that guarantees a disaster.

Also, go fark yourself. Don't blame us for your mistakes. We didn't create your EU and we didn't pass your laws. This is your own private mess.

Not a euro, but yes, it all started in the U.S in 2008 when you brought the economy down
then it was a domino effect and the domino's are not done falling

The world economy collapsing was the sum of stupid on the part of ALL nations.

However, I'm willing to let this go. We'll call it even for WW1 and WW2.


you rewriting history now? typical yank
it all started in the US
 
2012-06-28 06:48:52 PM

NephilimNexus: *sigh* .... New Rule: The next time Germany starts taking over Europe, let them win.


When I become Evil Overlord of the entire world, I plan on giving France to Germany just because it would be funny.

Before you laugh, you should know I also plan to give Texas and Arizona back to Mexico for the same reason.
 
2012-06-28 07:13:00 PM
Some dominos didn't fall. There are reasons for that. Greece was weak and foolish. So was the US.
 
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