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(CBS News)   CBS News report says Stockton, California will be the largest city ever to file for bankrupcy. In other news, CBS believes that Stockton is larger than Cleveland, Ohio   (cbsnews.com) divider line 124
    More: Fail, U.S., Central Falls, economists, bankruptcy  
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3519 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jun 2012 at 11:33 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-27 12:20:26 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: brobdiggy: age 56

monthly pension

I think I can see why Stockton (and California) is having financial troubles here.

All these public union people think they deserve everything without paying for it.

People think Scott Walker was the devil. In a nutshell, he basically said "If you want big benefits and pensions, pay a little more out of your own pocket for them." The liberal Democrat response was "OMFG YOU HATE WORKING PEOPLE!"

This is what happens when liberal "let the government pay for everything instead of me" politicians keep getting elected. The budget can't keep up with their unsustainable promises.

1/10...weak sauce.


It's sad that you think that's a troll.

It's been pretty clear that many liberals have struggled politically and economically with the concept of the long-term sustainability of their spending. The huge pensions, benefits, and "I'll take care of you" promises are starting to bite them in the ass now. It's a mindset that put many of these locales in their current position.

"I want it, but don't want to pay for it". Well, someone has to pay for it, and now everyone's out of money because of the unsustainable spending.
 
2012-06-27 12:20:41 PM

socalnewwaver: Gentoolive: Califonia deserves everything that happens to it..

sadly, i can't disagree with you. between the corrupt democratic legislature, the incompetent voters (high speed rail? are you kidding me?), and the gerrymandered districts, we have to be the worst run state in the nation.


I agree that California is appallingly misgoverned, but the districts are no long gerrymandered.

Take a look at the new district maps.

Various weasels fought against the quasi-nonpartisan redistricting commission, but they failed. Having voters choose their representatives rather than vice versa won't improve governance overnight, but it will help in the long run. The open primaries should also reduce the pandering to the extremes.
 
2012-06-27 12:25:43 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: "Retired police department employee Geri Ridge said she fears not being able to afford health-care insurance.

I don't have that kind of income," said Ridge, 56, noting she is concerned a large share of her $1,895 monthly pension payment could be consumed by large insurance costs due to her history of heart attacks."

Well, she's too young for Medicare, so she could take advantage of the subsidized plans that will be made available via HCR....oh wait, I forgot, that would be communist or something.

Never mind - just let her put off care until she's in dire need, then the taxpayers can foot the bill that she won't be able to pay. That's much more American.


Or the biatch could go back to work like the rest of us instead of sitting on her ass and complaining. Retired at 56 on the public dime? Not anymore.
 
2012-06-27 12:26:51 PM

brobdiggy: Grand_Moff_Joseph: brobdiggy: age 56

monthly pension

I think I can see why Stockton (and California) is having financial troubles here.

All these public union people think they deserve everything without paying for it.

People think Scott Walker was the devil. In a nutshell, he basically said "If you want big benefits and pensions, pay a little more out of your own pocket for them." The liberal Democrat response was "OMFG YOU HATE WORKING PEOPLE!"

This is what happens when liberal "let the government pay for everything instead of me" politicians keep getting elected. The budget can't keep up with their unsustainable promises.

1/10...weak sauce.

It's sad that you think that's a troll.

It's been pretty clear that many liberals have struggled politically and economically with the concept of the long-term sustainability of their spending. The huge pensions, benefits, and "I'll take care of you" promises are starting to bite them in the ass now. It's a mindset that put many of these locales in their current position.

"I want it, but don't want to pay for it". Well, someone has to pay for it, and now everyone's out of money because of the unsustainable spending.


Thank you for describing the Tea Party ethos in one siimple sentence, although the word "want" could be replaced by "got."
 
2012-06-27 12:29:12 PM

Thunderpipes: From CNN of all places:
Link

California should look to Wisconsin. Gov. Scott Walker closed a large budget hole without raising taxes or cutting education but by going straight to one of the roots of the problem -- public employee unions. Last summer, Walker required union members to contribute 5.8% of their pay toward pensions and 12.6% of their health insurance premiums, while also reforming collective bargaining agreements for government workers.

At first glance, Walker's reforms appeared to be political suicide. But as the returns come in, and schools aren't closing, draconian cuts aren't being made and taxes aren't getting higher. Walker's success leaves his opponents with little ammunition.

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, Walker's Democratic opponent in the June recall election, hardly mentions Walker's union reforms anymore. With Walker opening a lead in recent polls, top Wisconsin Democrats are angry that the Democratic National Committee is unwilling to invest heavily to recall him.

Wisconsin recently reported that property tax bills for the median homes fell by 0.4% in 2011, the first drop in more 13 years.

In January, Baldwin-Woodville School District reported a $100,000 budget surplus thanks to Walker's reforms. And in Kaukauna School District, school officials say the pension and health care reforms will transform their $400,000 budget deficit into a $1.5 million surplus.



Stop Making Sense.
 
2012-06-27 12:30:07 PM

cleveoh: Musikslayer: Ranger Joe: Seeing as how people have been fleeing Cleveland for the suburbs for years, Stockton might currently be bigger.

/Stay the hell out of Geauga County

And Portage (Aurora here).

Good, you guys stay out of the 1.7 billion dollars currently being invested in Cleveland redevelopment, 'k?



Could be 1.7 Trillion for all I care. Unless Cleveland comes up with a way that I can go there without having my car stolen, I like my 29-mile buffer zone.

/3 cars stolen in Cleveland.
 
2012-06-27 12:31:03 PM
ecx.images-amazon.com

RIP John Stockton
 
2012-06-27 12:31:43 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: "Retired police department employee Geri Ridge said she fears not being able to afford health-care insurance.

I don't have that kind of income," said Ridge, 56, noting she is concerned a large share of her $1,895 monthly pension payment could be consumed by large insurance costs due to her history of heart attacks."

Well, she's too young for Medicare, so she could take advantage of the subsidized plans that will be made available via HCR....oh wait, I forgot, that would be communist or something.

Never mind - just let her put off care until she's in dire need, then the taxpayers can foot the bill that she won't be able to pay. That's much more American.


I have no sympathy for someone who retires at 56 with the apparent intent to live off of pension (instead of savings). Why do public servants employees get to retire earlier than private sector employees, with higher pensions (on average)?
 
2012-06-27 12:33:23 PM

quokka70:

Various weasels fought against the quasi-nonpartisan redistricting commission, but they failed. Having voters choose their representatives rather than vice versa won't improve governance overnight, but it will help in the long run. The open primaries should also reduce the pandering to the extremes.


Next, you're gonna tell me that there won't be any budget cliff-hanger this year.
 
2012-06-27 12:33:40 PM

namatad: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Did Cleveland really file for Bankruptcy or is Subby just being snarky?

defaulted 30 years ago ... talked about filing in 2009?


OK. I wasn't sure, but was it *real* bankruptcy under Chapter 9, or some sort of State distressed municipality treatment?
 
2012-06-27 12:41:55 PM

Nina9: I love it here, but the politics drive me mad.


so very much this. i was born here, and unless i'm on vacation when it happens, i'll die here. but the completely batshiat insane politics here, along with the schizophrenic voters, drive me batty.
 
2012-06-27 12:43:41 PM
That summer fields grew high
with foxglove stalks and ivy.
Wild apple blossoms everywhere.
Bankrupt, no green
like none I have seen
apart from dreams
that escape me.
There was no town
as broke as you.

How I've learned to budget,
to doubt my frivolous "needs",
you'll never, you'll never know.
 
2012-06-27 12:45:51 PM

quokka70: I agree that California is appallingly misgoverned, but the districts are no long gerrymandered.


i see that you have not been paying attention to things...
 
2012-06-27 12:45:53 PM
I lived in Stockton for a year what a shat hole.
 
2012-06-27 12:55:35 PM

socalnewwaver: Nina9: I love it here, but the politics drive me mad.

so very much this. i was born here, and unless i'm on vacation when it happens, i'll die here. but the completely batshiat insane politics here, along with the schizophrenic voters, drive me batty.


I'll probably leave so I can make enough money to buy an outrageously priced house here. Housing cost completely sinks any opportunity I have of saving enough money to actually purchase a house in a decent neighborhood.
 
2012-06-27 12:58:19 PM

spiralscratch: Ah, Stockton. The Central Valley's answer to Oakland.


Not even close. Oakland has a great deal of wealth, on the other side of I-80. Loads of millionaires live in the Oakland hills.

Stockton has, ... um ... well it's got a bunch meth labs and 7th day adventist churches!
 
2012-06-27 12:59:09 PM

cleveoh: Musikslayer: Ranger Joe: Seeing as how people have been fleeing Cleveland for the suburbs for years, Stockton might currently be bigger.

/Stay the hell out of Geauga County

And Portage (Aurora here).

Good, you guys stay out of the 1.7 billion dollars currently being invested in Cleveland redevelopment, 'k?

& keep your exploding meth labs & school shootings in Geauga Co. while your at it. But not your delicious maple syrup, that would mean war.


Your medical mart will be an empty shell in five years.
 
2012-06-27 01:06:49 PM
Face it, this is government we're talking here, not someone who has to actually meet their financial obligations.

At worst, someone will have to choose between raising taxes or drastic cuts in basic services. Forced to actually sell assets like city-owned land, etc? Not a chance in hell.
 
2012-06-27 01:09:20 PM

dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats. Just like Detroit, Harrisburg, Cleveland, Camden, etc.


Your handle is spelled wrong.
 
2012-06-27 01:16:37 PM
Ok, I found a presentation on Stockton's website that is from 2011 that details some of their budget woes. A few thoughts from this fellow municipal budget staffer.

- On their revenue side, property taxes only account for 17% of Stockton's general revenues, with utility taxes and sales taxes being higher.

- On top of that, Stockton had a pretty significant population increase between 2000 and 2010, almost 20% or 250,000 to a little over 290,000 persons.

- Stockton started seeing a sharp decline in their revenues in 2009, which would have coincided with the fall out of the subprime mortgage crisis, so no real surprise there. Their 2011 projection (whenever it was made) was that revenues would begin to level out. Perhaps that didn't happen.


So on the revenue side, I'm a little puzzled about this picture. Assuming there hasn't been a huge decline in population, their revenue makeup shows that the decline in property valuations shouldn't hurt their bottom line too much in terms of property tax receipts, which are after all only 17% of their total revenue.

The key factor here is obviously the high unemployment, which cut into sales taxes revenues and likely utility revenues as well. A 20% unemployment rate is a pretty f*cking scary thing.


On their expenditure side, 80% of Stockton's $196 million budget is spent on Fire and Police.

HOLY EFFING SH*T!

That's a pretty insane amount of money for two functions of a municipality. I assume that factored into those costs are the benefit and retirement amounts that are allocated to Police and Fire staff, and if that is indeed the driving factor behind the super inflation of those two budgets, there's no doubt that it is absolutely out of control.

To put it in perspective, where I live, Calgary, has a $2.8 billion budget for 2012. Calgary Police Service receives approximately $301 million of that budget, a mere 11%, compared to Stockton's 50%. Staggering.

Their labor to non-labor ratio on their general fund budget is 81% labor and 19% non-labor. That's definitely on the high side, but every municipality spends the majority of their operating budget on labor.

The proposal (in 2011) was to reduce staff at the City of Stockton by 41% in three years. That's a massive number and would likely result in extremely significant reductions to service. I can't comprehend layoffs of that magnitude.


All in all, wow, that's f*cked.

For anyone interested, the presentation is here.

Link
 
2012-06-27 01:16:43 PM
The "liberals don't pay for stuff" guys seem to forget that Democrats have been dying to raise taxes, and that Democrats tend to accept that the stuff they want costs money. It's the Republicans that refuse to generate revenue.

Democrats: let's pool our money for these things and be happier, even if it means some extra tax.

Republicans: you get nothing and being happy is your problem but at least tax is low!

Republicans seem to think everyone should live like a homesteader. I want to live like people in Norway.
 
2012-06-27 01:26:26 PM
Born in Stockton CA, sad to see what's happened. The waterfront is still beautiful though, but boaing life has slowly evaporated on the delta. Yea 4th of July will be big, lots of boats, but since everyone in the valley got crusehed by the housing market there just arent many families that can afford a boat these days.

/has a sad for the death of the delta
 
2012-06-27 01:27:53 PM

Rev.K: Stockton had a pretty significant population increase between 2000 and 2010, almost 20% or 250,000 to a little over 290,000 persons.

- 80% of Stockton's $196 million budget is spent on Fire and Police. HOLY EFFING SH*T!


I think -- and I might be wrong -- that Stockton had the same problems as cities like Antioch. Massive amounts of Section 8 and other super-low-income housing was thrown up in those years, and with "those people" came lots of crime, drugs, etc. And with super-low-income people comes much lower per capita property and sales tax payments.

Also, Stockton was pretty cheap to buy property in, and is "only" 70-80 miles from Santa Clara, Oakland, San Jose, and SF...so looooooots of people living there are longer-haul commuters. So some of their money goes somewhere else.
 
2012-06-27 01:32:44 PM

dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.


doubtful. the majority of the central valley is very proudly conservative/hick/religio-nutjob
 
2012-06-27 01:41:53 PM

Finger51: dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.

doubtful.


and you'd be wrong, she is in fact a democrat. but thank you for playing.
 
2012-06-27 01:43:09 PM
I lived in the city of Cleveland for 12 years (six on the east, six on the west), so I'm getting a real kick out of these replies...

Of course, subby is incorrect. Default does not equal bankruptcy.

I live in Kent (Portage County) now, and while I really enjoy the peace and quiet of my edge-of-town apartment complex, I still commute up to Cleveland or its "inner-ring" suburbs for work and medical care. I'm a member of a church in the suburbs that actively goes into the city, tutoring hundreds of elementary-school children (We don't merely "support" it - we tutor them ourselves!). I'm looking forward to seeing the results of new development, and I push for people to put their money where their mouths are... Stop biatching about the problems within the city and start working, living, and investing there.

I'm excited by the redevelopment of some formerly slumlord-infested areas of University Circle (which is where I lived on the east side) and the increase in locally-owned services for students. I encourage visiting friends and family to see what is really available in Cleveland - not just the Rock Hall (as we call it here), Cleveland Orchestra and Cleveland Museum of Art, or the new casino. There are some very interesting and beautiful places that people drive by every day because they don't care to get involved.
 
2012-06-27 01:46:41 PM

socalnewwaver: Finger51: dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.

doubtful.

and you'd be wrong, she is in fact a democrat. but thank you for playing.


shiat my bad. You're right though, Stockton is filled with tree hugger libotards.
 
2012-06-27 01:46:48 PM

Finger51: dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.

doubtful. the majority of the central valley is very proudly conservative/hick/religio-nutjob


I dunno about their city level politics, but their assemblyman and state senator are Democratic
 
2012-06-27 01:47:40 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: "Retired police department employee Geri Ridge said she fears not being able to afford health-care insurance.

I don't have that kind of income," said Ridge, 56, noting she is concerned a large share of her $1,895 monthly pension payment could be consumed by large insurance costs due to her history of heart attacks."

Well, she's too young for Medicare, so she could take advantage of the subsidized plans that will be made available via HCR....oh wait, I forgot, that would be communist or something.

Never mind - just let her put off care until she's in dire need, then the taxpayers can foot the bill that she won't be able to pay. That's much more American.


Or at 56 she could get another job. It is not like she is old or anything.
 
2012-06-27 01:53:11 PM

Rev.K: Ok, I found a presentation on Stockton's website that is from 2011 that details some of their budget woes. A few thoughts from this fellow municipal budget staffer.

- On their revenue side, property taxes only account for 17% of Stockton's general revenues, with utility taxes and sales taxes being higher.


Well, I'd be curious to see what it was in 07 prior to the crash. It could be 17% now because Stockton's home values all tanked, they had the worst foreclosure rate in the nation, and they still have a massive number of unoccupied properties(though the banks are supposed to pay the property taxes, but I know that the homeowners in foreclosure and many shortsales aren't). Could have been much higher when everything was rainbows and unicorn farts.

Scrotastic Method: The "liberals don't pay for stuff" guys seem to forget that Democrats have been dying to raise taxes, and that Democrats tend to accept that the stuff they want costs money. It's the Republicans that refuse to generate revenue.

Democrats: let's pool our money for these things and be happier, even if it means some extra tax.

Republicans: you get nothing and being happy is your problem but at least tax is low!

Republicans seem to think everyone should live like a homesteader. I want to live like people in Norway.


First, Republicans in California voted for taxes many times in the past decade, and a Republican governor signed in those taxes.

Second, there is a breaking point. California is already among the most taxed states in the nation, and its income tax rate is the highest at the lowest marginal rate(our income tax brackets are very unprogressive.. anyone who makes enough to actually rent their own dwelling is in the top bracket).
 
2012-06-27 01:56:15 PM

namatad: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Did Cleveland really file for Bankruptcy or is Subby just being snarky?

defaulted 30 years ago ... talked about filing in 2009?

but
doesnt this solve all the cities and states problems??
file for bankruptcy, screw the tards who gave you the loans in the first place, screw the voters who thought you were doing a good job when you borrowed the money in the first place, no one gets hurt.

well, no one who doesnt deserve it.


Guess who was Mayor

images.sodahead.com

Mayor Kucinich appointed a 24-year-old attorney Joseph Tegreene as his finance director. Tegreene had almost no financial experience -eight months as a stockbroker.
 
2012-06-27 02:00:28 PM

Finger51: spiralscratch: Ah, Stockton. The Central Valley's answer to Oakland.

Not even close. Oakland has a great deal of wealth, on the other side of I-80. Loads of millionaires live in the Oakland hills.

Stockton has, ... um ... well it's got a bunch meth labs and 7th day adventist churches!


Make that 580. Across 80 is essentially Berkeley or Emeryville.
 
2012-06-27 02:01:49 PM

Fish in a Barrel: So people who bought muni bonds deserve to lose their money?


Stockton muni bonds? yup
seriously
buyer beware

does ANYONE buy muni bonds from detroit?? LOLOLOL
 
2012-06-27 02:07:23 PM

Rev.K: I went to Stockton's website because I wanted to see their budget.

The PDF is 71mb.

Apparently their pensions aren't the only bloated thing in Stockton.


Yay clip art!
 
2012-06-27 02:11:37 PM

Rev.K: Ok, I found a presentation on Stockton's website that is from 2011 that details some of their budget woes. A few thoughts from this fellow municipal budget staffer.


This will explain much of what you're seeing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mello-Roos

The short explanation is: weird California property tax laws means property taxes make up a much smaller proportion of municipal revenue than most places, even though combined property tax rates are much higher than most places.
 
2012-06-27 02:12:05 PM

chick-freak-a: , or the new casino.


I'm getting concerned that my friends back in my hometown of Cleveland aren't quite grasping the point of a casino.. Its supposed to pull in outsider and take THEIR money, not the money of the natives... People who live in Vegas know enough not to spend time in casinos unless its part of their job to somehow take money from outsiders...

I'm hoping once the novelty of having a casino wears off, Clevelanders stay out of their casino.
 
2012-06-27 02:15:06 PM

socalnewwaver: Finger51: dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.

doubtful.

and you'd be wrong, she is in fact a democrat. but thank you for playing.


Yeah, and the mayor in that town only runs the city council meetings and cuts ribbons for grand openings. The city manager actually runs things there.

/Lived in Stockton 32 years
 
2012-06-27 02:35:51 PM

dosboot: Without looking, I'm betting Stockton is run by Democrats.


Democrats aren't the ones who irresponsibly cut state taxes for decades until the municipalities were forced to support their own transit, schools, jails, etc.

If you're going to go around pointing fingers, you should bother looking into California's recent past.
 
2012-06-27 02:38:46 PM

socalnewwaver: quokka70: I agree that California is appallingly misgoverned, but the districts are no long gerrymandered.

i see that you have not been paying attention to things...


Sigh. You are right.

Optimistic cat has a sad.
 
2012-06-27 02:54:20 PM

spiralscratch: Ah, Stockton. The Central Valley's answer to Oakland.


I lived there for six months once, and now live north, near Sac. Stockton is the armpit of California, whereas Bakersfield is the bung hole.
 
2012-06-27 03:00:53 PM

hasty ambush: namatad: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Did Cleveland really file for Bankruptcy or is Subby just being snarky?

defaulted 30 years ago ... talked about filing in 2009?

but
doesnt this solve all the cities and states problems??
file for bankruptcy, screw the tards who gave you the loans in the first place, screw the voters who thought you were doing a good job when you borrowed the money in the first place, no one gets hurt.

well, no one who doesnt deserve it.

Guess who was Mayor

[images.sodahead.com image 284x350]


Guess who was the Mayor's wife:

www.iheartsfbands.com
lh6.ggpht.com

He gets to bang that every night. Your argument is invalid.
 
2012-06-27 03:04:42 PM
Average teacher salary in CA is $68,000 a year. Now, that is average. Teachers get 75% of their final years salary for life. Retire at 55 with a $70,000 a year pension for life? How is that remotely sustainable? Remember that average salary does not equal final salary. They get more salary than most people do for a pension, all taxpayer dollars and grossly underfunded. This is what liberals think is good.

Just gotta use common sense for crying out loud.
 
2012-06-27 03:17:44 PM
I guess that cities don't have the automatic default protection that the Pentagon has.
 
2012-06-27 03:20:21 PM
When a discussion thread basically boils down to a comparison between Stockton or Cleveland, you're really acheived "urban fail".

Been to both places.

Don't really have positive things to say about either place.
 
2012-06-27 03:21:25 PM
"You've". Okay, grammar fail for me.
 
2012-06-27 03:28:46 PM

Thunderpipes: Average teacher salary in CA is $68,000 a year. Now, that is average. Teachers get 75% of their final years salary for life. Retire at 55 with a $70,000 a year pension for life? How is that remotely sustainable? Remember that average salary does not equal final salary. They get more salary than most people do for a pension, all taxpayer dollars and grossly underfunded. This is what liberals think is good.

Just gotta use common sense for crying out loud.


And CalPERS gives you your pension based on the average of the last few years of your salary if I recall. So while the average might be 68k, the people that have been there for 30 years are at the top of the scale(over $100k in many districts) and will make a significant chunk of that in retirement.
 
2012-06-27 03:46:41 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: "Retired police department employee Geri Ridge said she fears not being able to afford health-care insurance.

I don't have that kind of income," said Ridge, 56, noting she is concerned a large share of her $1,895 monthly pension payment could be consumed by large insurance costs due to her history of heart attacks."

Well, she's too young for Medicare, so she could take advantage of the subsidized plans that will be made available via HCR....oh wait, I forgot, that would be communist or something.

Never mind - just let her put off care until she's in dire need, then the taxpayers can foot the bill that she won't be able to pay. That's much more American.


Or she could die like she's supposed to.
 
2012-06-27 03:48:47 PM

Persnickety: hasty ambush: namatad: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Did Cleveland really file for Bankruptcy or is Subby just being snarky?

defaulted 30 years ago ... talked about filing in 2009?

but
doesnt this solve all the cities and states problems??
file for bankruptcy, screw the tards who gave you the loans in the first place, screw the voters who thought you were doing a good job when you borrowed the money in the first place, no one gets hurt.

well, no one who doesnt deserve it.

Guess who was Mayor

[images.sodahead.com image 284x350]

Guess who was the Mayor's wife:


She was probably 3 years old at the time.
 
2012-06-27 04:09:46 PM
Sounds like Stockton could use an assist.
 
2012-06-27 04:11:48 PM

hasty ambush: namatad: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Did Cleveland really file for Bankruptcy or is Subby just being snarky?

defaulted 30 years ago ... talked about filing in 2009?

but
doesnt this solve all the cities and states problems??
file for bankruptcy, screw the tards who gave you the loans in the first place, screw the voters who thought you were doing a good job when you borrowed the money in the first place, no one gets hurt.

well, no one who doesnt deserve it.

Guess who was Mayor

[images.sodahead.com image 284x350]

Mayor Kucinich appointed a 24-year-old attorney Joseph Tegreene as his finance director. Tegreene had almost no financial experience -eight months as a stockbroker.


And as the tens of thousands of current Muny Light customers can tell you, it turns out that Dennis was RIGHT back then. People living in Cleveland LOVE thumbing their nose at CEI's shenanigans...
 
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