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(CNN)   In depth investigation of Fast and Furious reveals that - now, you may want to sit down for this - the DOJ did nothing wrong and the whole thing is a politically motivated witch hunt   (features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Justice Department, DOJ, Furious, Branch-Davidians, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, Charles Grassley, contempt of Congress, street gangs  
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4011 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2012 at 12:49 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-27 09:20:42 PM  
So no they didn't witness the sales or get the serial numbers till later. BUT they did tell the gun shop owners to make the sales. So the whole we didn't surveil the guns is a bunch of disingenuous horse shiat.

Their defense seems to be, "we're not guilty, we're just lazy."
 
2012-06-27 09:22:07 PM  

bugontherug: They just made a list of them.


Which they got from the gun dealers who they told to make sales that they wouldn't normally have made.
 
2012-06-27 09:22:59 PM  
All the documents clearly showing the ATF did nothing wrong have already been handed over to Issa. What's the problem?

t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-06-27 09:33:06 PM  

Welfare Xmas: bugontherug: They just made a list of them.

Which they got from the gun dealers who they told to make sales that they wouldn't normally have made.


I think that is the big deal. These gun dealers called the ATF about these obvious straw buyers and the ATF told them to make the sales. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF was stupid enough to actually buy the guns and then lose them.
 
2012-06-27 09:36:15 PM  

TheBigJerk: xanadian: Obama is probably putting executive privilege on the remainder of the documents because they may contain the names of agents still in the field--undercover--that may be put at risk.

Then again, aren't there Congressional committees that have such a level of clearance to be able to see top secret stuff? I'm sure there's got to be some kind of mechanism to allow congressional review without putting our law enforcement agents in danger. I don't know.

The Plame affair proves pretty resoundingly that Republicans can't actually be trusted with that sort of thing.

Yeah, I went there.


You mean the Plame affair where the guy named Richard Armitage inadvertently who had no connection to the White House let slip that Ms Plane used to be an undercover CIA agent but wasn't anymore. That one?
 
2012-06-27 09:38:32 PM  

Welfare Xmas: bugontherug: They just made a list of them.

Which they got from the gun dealers who they told to make sales that they wouldn't normally have made.


No, Voth's email on that subject repeats that he can't tell the dealer how to run his business. That email does not show Voth directing anyone to make a sale.
 
2012-06-27 09:39:42 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Mrbogey: Dealers were instructed to fill orders for known straw buyers.

What dealers? Who gave the instructions? Who says?


The gun dealers who sold the guns and the ATF who told them to go ahead with the sale even though they had suspicions. That's not in question anymore , the ATF has stated that this was their plan.
 
2012-06-27 09:41:17 PM  
Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link
 
2012-06-27 09:42:49 PM  

badhatharry: Welfare Xmas: bugontherug: They just made a list of them.

Which they got from the gun dealers who they told to make sales that they wouldn't normally have made.

I think that is the big deal. These gun dealers called the ATF about these obvious straw buyers and the ATF told them to make the sales. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF was stupid enough to actually buy the guns and then lose them.


I think the article pretty much debunks that notion. Rather, the gun dealers were happily selling weapons to anyone who wanted to buy them, and the ATF agents could not get prosecutors to authorize them to make arrests or even seizures of guns. This does not speak well of the prosecutors, but it's an entirely different problem than the one that people have been sold by Rep. Issa and the NRA.
 
2012-06-27 09:45:34 PM  

cepson: I think the article pretty much debunks that notion. Rather, the gun dealers were happily selling weapons to anyone who wanted to buy them, and the ATF agents could not get prosecutors to authorize them to make arrests or even seizures of guns.


The prosecutors couldn't establish probable cause. Buying guns, even with cash in brown paper bags, raises red flags. But it doesn't give probable cause to arrest.
 
2012-06-27 09:47:25 PM  

bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.


This letter seems to be in response to a letter from the gun dealer. Sounds like he's trying to put the gun deal at ease about something that he doesn't mention.

Got a link to the gun dealers email that would let us know what it was he was concerned about. It could be termite treatment for the store or maybe about letting suspicious people buy guns.

Given the missing context for the Voth email I'd say that's it's pretty much irrelevant until some context is supplied.
 
2012-06-27 09:47:48 PM  

bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link


Yeah, he's very careful in the way he tells him to keep making the sales. The dealer has the ok to make the sales. What is he going to do? Turn down a $3000 sale that has been OK'd by the ATF.
 
2012-06-27 09:53:55 PM  
FTFA: "Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people,..."

Wait a second... so Fortune Magazine gets to see the documents, but not Congress? Why no, *that* doesn't seem fishy at all!
/ Schadenfreude two-fer Thursday! :D
 
2012-06-27 10:01:30 PM  

GoSlash27: FTFA: "Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people,..."

Wait a second... so Fortune Magazine gets to see the documents, but not Congress? Why no, *that* doesn't seem fishy at all!
/ Schadenfreude two-fer Thursday! :D


Congress got over 6000 docs from Justice.
 
2012-06-27 10:11:50 PM  

bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link


Imagine he had written back, "Whatever you do, don't sell any more guns unless authorized by ATF." Now the scandal becomes "ATF trying to control who can and can't buy our guns!"
 
2012-06-27 10:26:09 PM  

cepson: bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link

Imagine he had written back, "Whatever you do, don't sell any more guns unless authorized by ATF." Now the scandal becomes "ATF trying to control who can and can't buy our guns!"


The NRA is now lobbying for Holder to be held in contempt because the ATF did NOT interfere with gun sales.

Let that one sink in for a minute.
 
2012-06-27 10:37:36 PM  

Welfare Xmas: A number of Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) gun dealers in the Phoenix area routinely contacted ATF when they noticed suspicious customers attempting purchases; for example, someone ordering large numbers of AK-47 variant rifles and other so-called "weapons of choice" used by the Mexican drug cartels, and paying with large sums of cash brought in a paper bag. But starting in fall 2009, instead of stopping the transactions or questioning the customers, ATF often encouraged select gun dealers to go ahead and complete suspicious sales. ATF further asked the gun dealers to continue to cooperate by selling to the suspicious customers repeatedly, and providing ATF with names and weapons' serial numbers. Several gun dealers expressed concerns to ATF: they worried if they cooperated in selling guns to suspected criminals, they would later be unfairly blamed or even prosecuted, and that some of the weapons might be used one day to murder federal agents.

Link



Why do you wish to restrict my 2nd Amendment right? You gun grabbers don't believe in freedom.
 
2012-06-27 10:46:26 PM  

dittybopper: xanadian: I think the point in TFA was that the ATF people couldn't PROVE (or so the prosecutors said) that these guns were going across the border. This is what they were trying to prove with F&F and Wide Receiver, until people like Dodson farked it all up by letting guns walk.

Nice attempted smear. It was Dodson who questioned it, and who eventually blew the whistle on the operation. It was Voth, the supervisor, who insisted that they let the guns walk.


I must've read the article differently than you. From what I got in TFA, I thought Voth was *against* it.

*shrug*
 
2012-06-27 10:51:16 PM  

liam76: Too bad I spelled out the exact part I was talking about and you kept harping on te provide part


The following is the entirety of the post regarding you calling me a liar:


liam76: Smackledorfer: No, it isn't. Intellectual dishonesty is when you claim the ATF provided these guns to the cartels and act as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without them.

Except I didn't claim that, you lying piece of shiat.


"Except I didn't claim that, you lying piece of shiat"

Where is the spelling out there?

You didn't clarify which part of the post you were talking about until here:


liam76: And I noticed in your long winded rant you never actually addressed the part I was calling you a liar for (and no idea why you went on about the providing part, I never claimed that was the lie).


Which I responded directly to. Was there a point in between there that you "spelled out" for me that I missed?

If not: If you are going to lie this much when everything is right there in the thread to look over, I can't imagine how trying an oral conversation would be.
 
2012-06-27 10:51:49 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: What dealers? Who gave the instructions? Who says?


By June of 2010 the ATF was aware that guns that they'd involved in the program were turning up in Mexico. About that same time Agent Olindo Casa witnessed Dodson state to Voth and McAllister that this program was dangerous and they ought to be prepared for a LEO getting killed by one of these weapons.

As part of the emails recovered a gun dealer emailed Voth later that month and asked specifically if guns were going to Mexico because they wanted assurances they weren't. Another email on August 25th 2010 had a dealer asking about an order placed by Uriel Patino. Patino asked for more guns than the dealer had on hand and he/she wanted to know what they should do. Voth advised the dealer to fill the order as requested.

Link
Link
Link
 
2012-06-27 10:54:46 PM  

liam76: People were hurt and died as a result of this.


Wait, so now people DID die as a result of this? Because earlier you were saying they would have died anyways, and I was a liar for saying they wouldn't.

If the cartels would have killed them anyways, then they didn't die as a result of F&F, and you are lying now.
If you don't believe the cartels wouldn't have killed them anyways, then the following is absolutely a true statement, and you were being dishonest when you got all pissy about it earlier:

Smackledorfer: No, it isn't. Intellectual dishonesty is when you claim the ATF provided these guns to the cartels and act as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without them.

You have now literally both denied acting as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without the F&F weapons, AND said that died as a result of F&F.

You are either retarded or I've been trolled hard, and either way its off to ignore for you.
 
2012-06-27 10:57:51 PM  

bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link


Oh that's bullshiat. You're reading something that's not there when he says specifically in one email-

"In summary our guidance is that we would like you to go through with Mr. Patino's request."
 
2012-06-27 11:05:28 PM  

Mrbogey: bugontherug: Link goes to PDF of Voth's email. He is very careful not to direct the dealer to make suspicious sales.

Link

Oh that's bullshiat. You're reading something that's not there when he says specifically in one email-

"In summary our guidance is that we would like you to go through with Mr. Patino's request."


Funny, in none of those emails do they mention that these are illegal transactions. Maybe because they weren't.
 
2012-06-27 11:13:57 PM  
Oh and for the people who are actually concerned with the truth and not into buying into whatever lies certain hacks here like to spread.

Here are the indictments against Avila, the strawbuyer/Trafficker who bought and sold the guns that were used to kill Agent Terry.

One count dealing in Firearms without a license
One count conspiracy to distribute Marijuana
Two counts possession with intent to distribute Marijuana

One count of conspiracy to possess a firearm in furtherance of a Drug Trafficking offense
Thirty-five counts of making a false statement in connection with the acquisition of a firearm
One count of conspiracy to commit money laundering
Eleven counts of money laundering.

Of those offenses, the italicized ones IIRC stemmed from drugs taken during the arrest, the bolded one stems from lies he committed on his purchase forms. The crime carries with it a 5 year prison sentence and upwards of $250,000 in fines. Could have been arrested within days of purchase and dozens guns from just him would not have made it down south.

So yea, if you believe the US Attorney could have done nothing on day 1 but on day 5,321 could suddenly do something... based on actions that took place on day 1 then you need to think a bit harder about it.
 
2012-06-27 11:18:34 PM  

Dinki: Funny, in none of those emails do they mention that these are illegal transactions. Maybe because they weren't.


Gun dealers aren't required to sell anything to anyone. The dealer contacted him because he clearly knew the guy was up to no good. He wanted to know if the ATF wanted him to proceed with the transaction as is or only sell him what he had on hand.

The ATF advised FFL's to sell guns to people they were suspicious of. You can't spin that.
 
2012-06-27 11:28:53 PM  
Why doesn't Obama just release his long-form birth certificate if he wants to end the conspiracy theories???
 
2012-06-27 11:32:56 PM  
Why won't Obama just come out and say that he is not going to steal your first born child on Christmas Eve?


HUH LIBS?! WHY NOT?
 
2012-06-27 11:40:42 PM  

redmid17: Nina_Hartley's_Ass:

WALL OF TEXT FROM ARTICLE

Is this the only thing you're going to do in the thread?



It's the only thing they do in any thread.
 
2012-06-27 11:41:11 PM  
So the argument has been reduced to, "Our drug war intelligence is so bad we have no idea who these drug runners are that are using straw purchasers, but we think there are some, so let's just let the arms cross the border, knowingly, and hope the empty intel folder fills up."?

Sounds legit.
 
2012-06-27 11:47:00 PM  

make me some tea: Crotchrocket Slim: I've always been a fan of the saying "never attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity/incompetence/lack of vision".

Indeed. This is clearly a case of incompetence combined with poor judgment. Not sure whether that has anything to do with Holder directly or not, but making what turned out to be a bad decisions is not against the law regardless.


but the gun walking didn't happen. not as a part of F&F. it was this one ATF guy who pretty much went against the dept.

Did Fast and Furious Not Happen?

That's the rather startling finding of a Fortune investigation. The basic thrust is that for the most part, the ATF didn't deliberately allow criminals to buy guns; instead, agents weren't able to interdict weapons and make arrests because prosecutors told them they lacked probable cause. The only actual incident of gunwalking the investigation turned up, apparently, was allegedly the brainchild of John Dodson, one of the whistleblowers who now says he resisted the tactic. This use of the tactic was approved by an ATF supervisor, but it was not part of Fast and Furious.
 
2012-06-27 11:47:48 PM  

s2s2s2: So the argument has been reduced to, "Our drug war intelligence is so bad we have no idea who these drug runners are that are using straw purchasers, but we think there are some, so let's just let the arms cross the border, knowingly, and hope the empty intel folder fills up."?

Sounds legit.


you know how I know you didn't read the article?
 
2012-06-27 11:49:58 PM  

Hobodeluxe: s2s2s2: So the argument has been reduced to, "Our drug war intelligence is so bad we have no idea who these drug runners are that are using straw purchasers, but we think there are some, so let's just let the arms cross the border, knowingly, and hope the empty intel folder fills up."?

Sounds legit.

you know how I know you didn't read the article?


I know you don't know I'm talking about the evolution of the apologetics in this thread, and not the article.
 
2012-06-27 11:52:36 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: GoSlash27: FTFA: "Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people,..."

Wait a second... so Fortune Magazine gets to see the documents, but not Congress? Why no, *that* doesn't seem fishy at all!
/ Schadenfreude two-fer Thursday! :D

Congress got over 6000 docs from Justice.


t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-06-28 12:14:04 AM  
the DOJ did nothing wrong and the whole thing is a politically motivated witch hunt

So much farking this.

The frustrated right wing in this country is so predictably (and pathetically) knee-jerk in their attacks on this administration.

They really should go back to criticizing Obama for putting brown mustard on his hamburgers. It's a much bigger crowd pleaser.
 
2012-06-28 01:15:47 AM  

whidbey: the DOJ did nothing wrong and the whole thing is a politically motivated witch hunt

So much farking this.

The frustrated right wing in this country is so predictably (and pathetically) knee-jerk in their attacks on this administration.

They really should go back to criticizing Obama for putting brown mustard on his hamburgers. It's a much bigger crowd pleaser.


And you wonder why your beliefs aren't more persuasive.
 
2012-06-28 01:24:01 AM  

Mrbogey: Dinki: Funny, in none of those emails do they mention that these are illegal transactions. Maybe because they weren't.

Gun dealers aren't required to sell anything to anyone. The dealer contacted him because he clearly knew the guy was up to no good. He wanted to know if the ATF wanted him to proceed with the transaction as is or only sell him what he had on hand.

The ATF advised FFL's to sell guns to people they were suspicious of. You can't spin that.



You mean the ATF couldn't stop a gun sale just because the guy seemed to be "up to no good?"
 
2012-06-28 01:42:11 AM  

s2s2s2: whidbey: the DOJ did nothing wrong and the whole thing is a politically motivated witch hunt

So much farking this.

The frustrated right wing in this country is so predictably (and pathetically) knee-jerk in their attacks on this administration.

They really should go back to criticizing Obama for putting brown mustard on his hamburgers. It's a much bigger crowd pleaser.

And you wonder why your beliefs aren't more persuasive.


Honestly, if they were, I'd be running this place.
 
2012-06-28 06:53:57 AM  

bugontherug: The prosecutors couldn't establish probable cause. Buying guns, even with cash in brown paper bags, raises red flags. But it doesn't give probable cause to arrest


Raises flags and sellers normally won't sell, ATF told them to sell anyway. And then they followed some of those buyers, who re-sold the guns and didn't arrest them (which they could have).


Smackledorfer: liam76: Too bad I spelled out the exact part I was talking about and you kept harping on te provide part

The following is the entirety of the post regarding you calling me a liar:


liam76: Smackledorfer: No, it isn't. Intellectual dishonesty is when you claim the ATF provided these guns to the cartels and act as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without them.

Except I didn't claim that, you lying piece of shiat.

"Except I didn't claim that, you lying piece of shiat"

Where is the spelling out there?

You didn't clarify which part of the post you were talking about until here:


liam76: And I noticed in your long winded rant you never actually addressed the part I was calling you a liar for (and no idea why you went on about the providing part, I never claimed that was the lie).

Which I responded directly to. Was there a point in between there that you "spelled out" for me that I missed?

If not: If you are going to lie this much when everything is right there in the thread to look over, I can't imagine how trying an oral conversation would be.


After that comment, where I highlighted the "acted" part you still went on adn on about "provided" you dumb fark.

Smackledorfer: liam76: People were hurt and died as a result of this.

Wait, so now people DID die as a result of this? Because earlier you were saying they would have died anyways, and I was a liar for saying they wouldn't.

If the cartels would have killed them anyways, then they didn't die as a result of F&F, and you are lying now.
If you don't believe the cartels wouldn't have killed them anyways, then the following is absolutely a true statement, and you were being dishonest when you got all pissy about it earlier:

Smackledorfer: No, it isn't. Intellectual dishonesty is when you claim the ATF provided these guns to the cartels and act as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without them.

You have now literally both denied acting as though the cartels wouldn't have been able to kill people without the F&F weapons, AND said that died as a result of F&F.


No stupid. I said the ATF provided weapons that were used in crimes and that people were killed with those guns. You then lied and acted as if I said those people wouldn't have died if it weren't for those guns. They probably would have, I don't know, You don't know, but it doesn't change the fact that they still provided the weapons used in crimes. You don't need to have some magic ability to know exactly what would have happened in every crime that these guns were used in if these guns weren't availaible to say if giving the cartels the guns was a bad thing.

If I sold a gun to a criminal who had other guns, but he then used the gun I sold him to murder someone, did my actions contribute to that murder? Using your logic I didn't. using your logic I did nothing wrong, as he had guns anway. See how farking stupid that is? You don't need a farking crystal ball to be able to see what would have happened wihtotu me selling the gun to know that my actions contributed to the murder.

Smackledorfer: either way its off to ignore for you.


Too bad I think you were really close to understanding why it is bad to sell guns to cartels.
 
2012-06-28 06:57:28 AM  

intelligent comment below: You mean the ATF couldn't stop a gun sale just because the guy seemed to be "up to no good?"


Thanks for proving the axiom that there's no ignorance like dedicated ignorance.
 
2012-06-28 06:57:44 AM  

bugontherug: liam76: bugontherug: liam76: They gave/provided/allowed to be sold (whatever you like cupcake) guns to cartels that were used in crimes.

No, they didn't. They made a list. 75% of the guns they allegedly walked, they didn't even know had been sold until after the fact of their sale. The whole premise of this investigation is a complete fraud.

Can you cite a direct source for that?

I would think something like that would have came out in the investigation, don't you?

It did. It came out when Forbes conducted the first non-partisan investigation in this case. It's in this interview, with the article's author:

The section you're looking for starts around 11:28. I've already posted the full text above. I'll post it again below:

Link


It would have coem out in the congressional investigation. I am not going to takwe the word fo the author of this article. They have no credability on this subject. That whole thing was a spin piece that pretended th problem was with Arizona Attorneys,a dn Arizona law, when the fact is that they enfocre federal law and work at the discretion of Federal prosecuters (who happened to be in Arizona).
 
2012-06-28 07:21:45 AM  

dittybopper: Bullshiat article is bullshiat:

Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information, a record of purchased guns and their serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. (Lying on the forms is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.)

A five year federal sentence per incident is a "weak penalty"?


But, in the case of Arizona's completely farked up gun laws that makes legal, You can fill out the form that the 27 guns you are buying today are for your personal use only, BUT, if you by the time you get to your car, decide that you want to now sell them, guess what... It's coming... here it comes... IT'S NOT A CRIME TO SELL THEM.

I like that there is a guy on food stamps who bought over 400 guns while being monitored, and the prosecutor in Arizona told the ATF that they couldn't go after him.

These extremely lax gun laws, now that they are being looked at is probably going to be what causes public sentiment over gun laws to change to one of horror. Not the fact that Fast and Furious let what is effectively 1 day's worth of guns walk because the prosecutor said they had no case.

It's called the river of iron, because 2,000 guns a day are being sent to Mexico, if this has been going on since 2006, that's 4.38 million guns that have gone into Mexico on the river of iron, and Fast and Furious tried to track 2,000 out of that 4383000 guns. (and only if this is since 2006 that they have been importing guns)
 
2012-06-28 07:48:05 AM  

Zalan: But, in the case of Arizona's completely farked up gun laws that makes legal, You can fill out the form that the 27 guns you are buying today are for your personal use only, BUT, if you by the time you get to your car, decide that you want to now sell them, guess what... It's coming... here it comes... IT'S NOT A CRIME TO SELL THEM.


Arizona still follows federal gun laws, yes it is a crime to buy a bunch of guns then turn around and sell them. You may not get them for lying on the form (although they have used that in the past, and inthe case fo this happening with 27 guns would be easy to prove) but you could get them for being an unliscenced gun dealer.

Zalan: I like that there is a guy on food stamps who bought over 400 guns while being monitored, and the prosecutor in Arizona told the ATF that they couldn't go after him.


If he is one of the guys they have selling guns on surveilance, then yes they could have gone after him.


Zalan: It's called the river of iron, because 2,000 guns a day are being sent to Mexico, if this has been going on since 2006, that's 4.38 million guns that have gone into Mexico on the river of iron, and Fast and Furious tried to track 2,000 out of that 4383000 guns.


Do you have a source for this? Or is this like the myth that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexican crimes come from the US?
 
2012-06-28 07:49:16 AM  

redmid17: TrollingForColumbine: dittybopper: Wendy's Chili: dittybopper: squegeebooo: Which is what the article is claiming using emails, other documents and interviews.

The article also claims this:

No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking,

Which is false:

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in
interstate or foreign commerce;

How can I trust that she hasn't distorted or slanted the other so-called "facts" in the article.

If the author is that wrong that early in the article.

This is an 11th hour hit piece designed to attack the credibility of the whistleblowers, and to deflect blame from the ATF, DOJ, and by extension, the administration prior to the vote. I'm betting they've been sitting on this article for at least a few days, if not for a couple of weeks.

I'm not a lawyer, but the line about interstate or foreign commerce seems to mean that someone can walk in, buy a gun, walk out, and hand it to their drug lord buddy without violating the statute. They wouldn't violate it unless they were the ones to bring it over a state or national border.

Haven't you been paying attention? The Commerce Clause hasn't been interpreted that way for seventy years.

Besides which your reading comprehension sucks. Here is is "flattened out", with the operative conjunction highlighted:

It shall be unlawful for any person except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms,

*OR*

in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce;

It's illegal to deal in firearms without an FFL. It's also illegal to ship, transport, or receive ...


You might want to watch this video, Lot of dislikes from NRA people because it shows what goes on at gun shows.

Link
 
2012-06-28 07:56:05 AM  

Zalan: You might want to watch this video, Lot of dislikes from NRA people because it shows what goes on at gun shows


Yes there is a gun show loophole, but the author was still wrong about no statute outlawing firearms trafficking, the "loophole" has nothing to do with F&F, and ATF betweem 2004 and 2006 (while only going to 2% of gun shows) arrested 121 people at gun shows. Seems to me we have laws that can fix the loopholle but not enough priority is set on doing so.
 
2012-06-28 08:20:38 AM  

Hobodeluxe: feckingmorons: The whole program was designed to sway public sentiment regarding firearms to make the US look like a major supplier of illegal guns to Mexico. It failed miserably, The drug cartels can fly in plane loads of guns, they don't need one guy to bring a couple back hidden in a truck of melons.


Fast and Furious was a political stunt from the start, a political stunt that got federal agents killed.

the farking US IS the major supplier of guns to Mexico you dumbass.
they don't have to make it appear that way. it's a fact.
and you actually think that this was a left wing conspiracy to sway public opinion? What about when Bush did it? Was it okay then because none of the guns were used to kill Americans only innocent Mexicans? The whole damn thing is a clusterfark but at least Obama shut it down.
You are a conspiracy theorist with zero evidence to support your assertions. No better than a birther.


/bearsrepeating.jpg
 
2012-06-28 08:35:08 AM  

andersoncouncil42: Hobodeluxe: feckingmorons: The whole program was designed to sway public sentiment regarding firearms to make the US look like a major supplier of illegal guns to Mexico. It failed miserably, The drug cartels can fly in plane loads of guns, they don't need one guy to bring a couple back hidden in a truck of melons.


Fast and Furious was a political stunt from the start, a political stunt that got federal agents killed.

the farking US IS the major supplier of guns to Mexico you dumbass.
they don't have to make it appear that way. it's a fact.


Is it? Only "fact" I have ever seen is that 90%* of the guns found in Mexican crimes are from the US. Of course the * is important because it turns out that the 90% is only 90% that Mexican authorities pass info on to the US about, which only accounts for 17% of the guns found. So in reality all I know for a fact is that (.90*.17=.153) 15% of the guns found at Mexican crime scens are fromt he US.


What about when Bush did it? Was it okay then because none of the guns were used to kill Americans only innocent Mexicans?

It was "ok" because they had a method to track the guns (RFID chips, aerial tracking, coordination with mexican authorities) and when it failed, they stopped. F&F had no method to track and when it failed (guns turned up at crime scense and they were no closer to cartels) they kept going.
 
2012-06-28 08:43:05 AM  

liam76: Zalan: But, in the case of Arizona's completely farked up gun laws that makes legal, You can fill out the form that the 27 guns you are buying today are for your personal use only, BUT, if you by the time you get to your car, decide that you want to now sell them, guess what... It's coming... here it comes... IT'S NOT A CRIME TO SELL THEM.

Arizona still follows federal gun laws, yes it is a crime to buy a bunch of guns then turn around and sell them. You may not get them for lying on the form (although they have used that in the past, and inthe case fo this happening with 27 guns would be easy to prove) but you could get them for being an unliscenced gun dealer.

Zalan: I like that there is a guy on food stamps who bought over 400 guns while being monitored, and the prosecutor in Arizona told the ATF that they couldn't go after him.

If he is one of the guys they have selling guns on surveilance, then yes they could have gone after him.


Zalan: It's called the river of iron, because 2,000 guns a day are being sent to Mexico, if this has been going on since 2006, that's 4.38 million guns that have gone into Mexico on the river of iron, and Fast and Furious tried to track 2,000 out of that 4383000 guns.

Do you have a source for this? Or is this like the myth that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexican crimes come from the US?

"Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one."


Link
 
2012-06-28 08:59:29 AM  

Zalan: "Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one."

Link


Sorry, do you have a source with any credability? The bolded is flat out wrong. This artuicle is filled with similiar errors and misinformation, so I put no stock in its claims.
 
2012-06-28 09:05:35 AM  

Zalan: liam76: Zalan: But, in the case of Arizona's completely farked up gun laws that makes legal, You can fill out the form that the 27 guns you are buying today are for your personal use only, BUT, if you by the time you get to your car, decide that you want to now sell them, guess what... It's coming... here it comes... IT'S NOT A CRIME TO SELL THEM.

Arizona still follows federal gun laws, yes it is a crime to buy a bunch of guns then turn around and sell them. You may not get them for lying on the form (although they have used that in the past, and inthe case fo this happening with 27 guns would be easy to prove) but you could get them for being an unliscenced gun dealer.

Zalan: I like that there is a guy on food stamps who bought over 400 guns while being monitored, and the prosecutor in Arizona told the ATF that they couldn't go after him.

If he is one of the guys they have selling guns on surveilance, then yes they could have gone after him.


Zalan: It's called the river of iron, because 2,000 guns a day are being sent to Mexico, if this has been going on since 2006, that's 4.38 million guns that have gone into Mexico on the river of iron, and Fast and Furious tried to track 2,000 out of that 4383000 guns.

Do you have a source for this? Or is this like the myth that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexican crimes come from the US?

"Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly pr ...


Just for the record, this is the same Mexican government that said that 90% of guns recovered by the Federales from the cartels could be traced to the US, while conveniently excluding the fact that most of the guns were sold to the Mexican army and left with deserters and that they only tested guns they knew would be from the US because not many people have a registry with Russian/Chinese AK-47 serial numbers.
 
2012-06-28 10:58:39 AM  

PanicMan: Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car...any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?


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