Aarontology: serial_crusher: If the guard doesn't want to dispense it, that's her right

If you cannot do your job because of your religious beliefs, either change your job or change your beliefs. Especially if you're in a position to administer medicine to people.

Saying "but my beliefs" isn't an excuse to not do the job you're being paid to do.

agreed. If your religious beliefs interfere with people you are serving/looking after, you should not be doing that job.

Has anybody considered the fact that some "birth control" medicines serve double purposes, and by missing a pill such a person could be seriously harmed by missing that pill because the person has a screwed-up uterus? "Birth-control" isn't purely about abortion, just as Viagra-type drugs can help with blood-pressure issues. The dumbass religious guard could have potentially killed the suspect/victim.

rebelyell2006: Has anybody considered the fact that some "birth control" medicines serve double purposes, and by missing a pill such a person could be seriously harmed by missing that pill because the person has a screwed-up uterus? "Birth-control" isn't purely about abortion, just as Viagra-type drugs can help with blood-pressure issues. The dumbass religious guard could have potentially killed the suspect/victim.

yeah but he's a Christian so he gets automagic forgiveness

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Alphakronik: The only thing worse than a fundie Islamist is a Fundie Christian.

I don't recall any fundie xtians flying planes into buildings or getting on buses with C4 vests, but OK. For the sake of argument, they both suck.

I can read. Apparently, you don't understand what "for the sake of argument" means. From the wiki:

"Making an assumption arguendo allows an attorney to pursue arguments in the alternative without admitting even the slightest possibility that those assumptions could be true. Often, these assumptions would be that the facts or legal arguments endorsed by a hostile party were true."

So, both sides are bad... you don't really mean it, but you don't want to defend the statement.

Jim_Callahan: Frankly, no. Just no. You don't get immunity from arrest for one crime just because you're the victim of another. If you can't figure out how insanely easily abused such a system would be just stop and think for a second, a second is all it should take.

bugontherug: Smackledorfer: Sure, but at the same time, actual damages

Severe emotional distress can, under the right circumstances, constitute "actual damages." Where I live, in the defamation context, emotional distress constitutes "actual damages" when it results in symptoms documentable through psychiatric treatment. If Florida law is similar, she needs to get her shrink on the stand to say "yeah, after she got raped, she got severely depressed. And in my opinion, denial of her abortifacient contributed to the emotional distress, and exacerbated her symptoms."

What if it was her inhaler? Yes she had an asthma attack but she didn't die right? So no damages. It doesn't matter, presumably a doctor told her to take the second pill in 12 hours and the jail didn't let her. It doesnt matter if she got pregnant or not.

serial_crusher: Mkay, I think the jail should be required to dispense any medication the criminals have a prescription for.
If the guard doesn't want to dispense it, that's her right, but either the jail shouldn't leave her there alone or they should replace her with somebody who will do both.

How is that her right? Her beliefs are irrelevant. She is being paid to do her job which includes dispensing meds that are legal...she either dispenses them or she is unfit to do her job.

There are plenty of things I don't want to do at my job but I do them because they're my job.

The pills were probably withheld because it wasn't rape rape.

/rape

But wait, a paternity test would prove that he raped her beyond a shadow of a doubt! Now that's some great detective work!

The My Little Pony Killer: Your beliefs do not trump my right to bodily autonomy.

the religious arent threatening you until you convert to their religion.... they simply believe that at conception a new life is created that instant. therefore, independant of their religion, that fetus has a right to it's bodily autonomy. it too has a right to live, just as an adult does.

the solution to the madness is not to assert your bodily right.... the pro lifers arent suggesting you dont have that right. the solution to it is to argue that a fertilized egg is not alive, and instead propose a point at which the fetus is worthy of full rights as a human being. the old law was when a baby was born... but with medical advances fetus can now come out of stomach and survive, fetus can also survive being born months early.

figure out the point at which the fetus gains and starts developing a brain. the brain is the only true defining characteristic that separates us from animals and other lumps of flesh that are OK to be destroyed at will. it is 3-6 months iirc... possibly even earlier for basic brain wave patterns, but those are probably just basic neurons that start the heart beating.

once you pick a point at which life begins, you can then adequately counter the religious that say that life begins at conception... because its a new life form with a new set of DNA. well.... so is cancer, so that method of thinking obviously doesnt make sense.

partial birth abortions, and very late term abortions are obviously murder.... destroying a small lump of ambiguous flesh... is not.

cretinbob: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Alphakronik: The only thing worse than a fundie Islamist is a Fundie Christian.

I don't recall any fundie xtians flying planes into buildings or getting on buses with C4 vests, but OK. For the sake of argument, they both suck.

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Jog your memory, or shall I go on?

He doesn't think those are the same since the islamists hold the body count record.

Gwendolyn: I know that is not the point of the article but I'm very concerned that instead of helping a rape victim the police decide to arrest her and throw her in jail. I know that she had a warrant out for her arrest but god damn think about what message that sends to people about reporting rape in the future. One shouldn't have to wonder about the possibility of unpaid parking tickets not top of being raped.

That was my take as well. A few years ago, after my house was broken into, I called the cops and was transferred to a burglary detective. He took my name and a few other details then inexplicably asked if drugs were involved. I'm like "what?"

The sonofabiatch did a records search and discovered a 25-year-old possession charge that was dismissed when I was a juvenile. Lazy bastard was just looking for an excuse to get out of doing his job. You can always tell a crooked police department by the way they victimize crime victims.

I wonder how much of this thread is populated by sock puppets. Anyone got a list somewhere?

Because People in power are Stupid: It is my religious belief that all inmates under my "care" should prove their love for God by sucking my schlong.

"Male members were encouraged to visualize themselves as women, in order to avoid a homosexual relationship with Jesus."

Most amazing sentence I have read this year.

Genta: once you pick a point at which life begins, you can then adequately counter the religious that say that life begins at conception... because its a new life form with a new set of DNA. well.... so is cancer, so that method of thinking obviously doesnt make sense.

partial birth abortions, and very late term abortions are obviously murder.... destroying a small lump of ambiguous flesh... is not

I understand where you are coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. There is nothing that gives anyone the right to force another person to reproduce against their will. Forcing someone to have children is called SLAVERY, no matter how you dress it up or attempt to justify it.

Sabyen91: suthrnrunt: cowgirl toffee: suthrnrunt: they should have just let her have a rusty coat hanger

O_o Are you kidding?! She could have made a jail-house weapon with that.

And she can sell that one pill for pack of cigarettes your point is

What does this mean?

It means you should have been on the wrong end of a rusty coat hanger years ago

serial_crusher: Mkay, I think the jail should be required to dispense any medication the criminals have a prescription for.
If the guard doesn't want to dispense it, that's her right, but either the jail shouldn't leave her there alone or they should replace her with somebody who will do both.

But, I also wouldn't really have expected them to have thought of that before it came up. And there's not really any damages for the victim to sue for here. She ended up not getting pregnant anyhow, so no harm no foul.

Make the sheriff change their policy, but don't give the victim any money.

No damage except distress. It takes weeks to get a reliable pregnancy test result.

Genta: partial birth abortions, and very late term abortions are obviously murder...

Wrong.

Fat Old Broad: Genta: once you pick a point at which life begins, you can then adequately counter the religious that say that life begins at conception... because its a new life form with a new set of DNA. well.... so is cancer, so that method of thinking obviously doesnt make sense.

partial birth abortions, and very late term abortions are obviously murder.... destroying a small lump of ambiguous flesh... is not

I understand where you are coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. There is nothing that gives anyone the right to force another person to reproduce against their will. Forcing someone to have children is called SLAVERY, no matter how you dress it up or attempt to justify it.

Ssshhh, don't say that. Now the anti-abortion psychopaths (redundant, I know...) will use the "It's what the founding fathers did" defense.

That's an easy one: if she does turn out to be pregnant the guard can cover the medical costs of either having to terminate the pregnancy (plus a sizeable pain and suffering account), or he can be "babby daddy" and take care of this child he so desperately wanted her to be with. That means medical costs as well as support for "his" child until they turn 18... and a sizeable account for babby momma who is now responsible for raising his child.

She turns out not to be pregnant- no harm no foul. Just a fat check from the guard for being a douchebag. And his job. Maybe a few years in the can himself just to develope a little empathy for those people in his charge.

I'm nots o sure about going after "a prison" as it was not a systemic violation but rather, done on the part of an individual.

Someone explain to me how the sheriff's office can try and weasel out of this by claiming deputy biatch-on-Wheels was not enforcing an official policy, therefore they are not to blame? Even if she's not in charge, the department has failed and is accountable for putting her in a position of power where she could do harm, or at least failed to anticipate the situation
.

If your religious beliefs say contraception is bad, don't take contraception! I don't think handing a pill to someone is a sin, even if you think taking the pill is. Stupid Bronze Age cultists.

Surool: cretinbob: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Alphakronik: The only thing worse than a fundie Islamist is a Fundie Christian.

I don't recall any fundie xtians flying planes into buildings or getting on buses with C4 vests, but OK. For the sake of argument, they both suck.

[www.brasilescola.com image 372x285]

[www.armyofgod.com image 238x397]

[www.thethirdcity.org image 451x360]

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 320x278]

Jog your memory, or shall I go on?

He doesn't think those are the same since the islamists hold the body count record.

But they don't. Christians murdered 8,000 Muslims in Bosnia in 1992. That's the modern day record (that no one in the media talks about.)

suthrnrunt: Sabyen91: suthrnrunt: cowgirl toffee: suthrnrunt: they should have just let her have a rusty coat hanger

O_o Are you kidding?! She could have made a jail-house weapon with that.

And she can sell that one pill for pack of cigarettes your point is

What does this mean?

It means you should have been on the wrong end of a rusty coat hanger years ago

So, you are just being a worthless turd. Got it.

born_yesterday: Sue the shiat out of them. Sue cops, hospitals, and pharmacies until the business cost of hiring these worthless pieces of human excrement is so great, they have no choice but to take their self-righteous and cruel morality and crawl back under the slimy rocks from whence they came.

Or charge more for their services (sort of like the medical profession where a good part of a doc's earnings is spent on malpractice insurance) and goods- someone's gotta cover those frivolous lawsuits.

Before you go suing the whole shootin' works you might want to determine why each party is guilty of negligence and how they contributed to the horrid acts of one individual.

You go after that individual with a vengence for either monataryconsideration or jail time- if you can prove some form of negligence on the part of their employer (they had knowlege or encouraged this type of behavior). Sue the drug companies? Seriously? You want to drive up the price of medication? Drive up the mandatory medicaide deductions on your paycheck?.

You gotta think these things out a little before you go all atomic on the rest of society there kiddo.

PsyLord: billxou: Wouldn't "anti-contraception" pills get her pregnant?

I was perplexed by that too. WTF.

They probably meant the e- contraceptive (emergency contraceptive or morning after pill)

clowncar on fire: I'm nots o sure about going after "a prison" as it was not a systemic violation but rather, done on the part of an individual.

In my opinion, as soon as Spinelli's bosses heard about this farce and decided against firing her ass on the spot, they became complicit. Yeah, there's no legal precedent there that I'm aware of, but like I said, it's just my opinion. :P

/I'm assuming that she wasn't fired because TFA didn't say otherwise.
//If I'm wrong, then I take it back.

Fluorescent Testicle: clowncar on fire: I'm nots o sure about going after "a prison" as it was not a systemic violation but rather, done on the part of an individual.

In my opinion, as soon as Spinelli's bosses heard about this farce and decided against firing her ass on the spot, they became complicit. Yeah, there's no legal precedent there that I'm aware of, but like I said, it's just my opinion. :P

/I'm assuming that she wasn't fired because TFA didn't say otherwise.
//If I'm wrong, then I take it back.


That's like an airline saying "Yeah, we know the pilot was drunk off his ass when he crashed the plane and killed all those people, but that was against our policy so we're off the hook for it, and you'll all have to sue his estate."

If she was on duty and acting as part of her job, then the jail is responsible for her. They can say "Yeah, but she wasn't following the rules" which will help but she was still acting as their agent when she did it, and they're responsible for that.

The sheriff responsible needs to be thrown in Jail.

Cyberluddite: Mock26: What makes you think that they police will not continue with the rape investigation? Why do you think that they will simply ignore the rape because the woman raped has a warrant out for her arrest?

You're missing the point. If a rape victim has reason to believe she's going to be thrown in jail if she goes to the cops to report the rape, she's not going to report it. And without a complaining witness, the cops will have no way of knowing that a rape ever occurred, so there will be no investigation in the first place. This is not a difficult concept to follow.

It is, however, a far fetched and stupid concept to follow.

bugontherug: Smackledorfer: Sure, but at the same time, actual damages

Severe emotional distress can, under the right circumstances, constitute "actual damages." Where I live, in the defamation context, emotional distress constitutes "actual damages" when it results in symptoms documentable through psychiatric treatment. If Florida law is similar, she needs to get her shrink on the stand to say "yeah, after she got raped, she got severely depressed. And in my opinion, denial of her abortifacient contributed to the emotional distress, and exacerbated her symptoms."

At the risk of being anal, I DID say:

Smackledorfer: Some psychological distress I'll grant. What's the reasonable price tag here?

:D

Smackledorfer: bugontherug: Smackledorfer: Sure, but at the same time, actual damages

Severe emotional distress can, under the right circumstances, constitute "actual damages." Where I live, in the defamation context, emotional distress constitutes "actual damages" when it results in symptoms documentable through psychiatric treatment. If Florida law is similar, she needs to get her shrink on the stand to say "yeah, after she got raped, she got severely depressed. And in my opinion, denial of her abortifacient contributed to the emotional distress, and exacerbated her symptoms."

At the risk of being anal, I DID say:

Smackledorfer: Some psychological distress I'll grant. What's the reasonable price tag here?

:D

And when psychology is a science, and therefore admittable in court, you'll have a point.

As it stands, trying to use psychology is akin to using astrology.

Rent Party: If she was on duty and acting as part of her job, then the jail is responsible for her. They can say "Yeah, but she wasn't following the rules" which will help but she was still acting as their agent when she did it, and they're responsible for that.

Oh, I absolutely agree, I just think that their (apparent) non-action makes them look even worse.

RexTalionis: Is the jailer also sued as an individual? While it's nice to sue the sheriff's department because it's got the deeper pockets, I kind of want to see the jailer to be in the position where there's such a massive outstanding judgment against her that she will remain destitute for decades.

They're probably legally shielded from being sued. She went after the right target.

ProfessorOhki: The guard should have to pay, at minimum, full child support for the next 18 years, regardless of if there was any child resulting.

Except emergency contraception is only 80% effective. 80% of what the guard would have to pay if they had a child with her would be reasonable, though.

Babwa Wawa: Sell the debt to bill collector. Don't use your police force as a f*cking debt collection agency.

A person should be hauled in only if the warrant is for a felony or if they are an active threat to the peace and safety of the community. Otherwise use financial pressure to enforce compliance.

You misunderstand what's going on. The police aren't acting as debt collectors. The charge is contempt of court for failure to appear at a debtors hearing. What happened is that someone got a judgment against her and then scheduled a hearing to go over what income and assets she had. She blew off that hearing--that's what gets you in jail.

If you show up and show that you have nothing the cops won't act. The problem is when you thumb your nose at a judge.

Don't know if anyone else who's been locked up has chimed in yet, but guards withholding prescription meds is pretty much standard procedure.

born_yesterday: Sue the shiat out of them. Sue cops, hospitals, and pharmacies until the business cost of hiring these worthless pieces of human excrement is so great, they have no choice but to take their self-righteous and cruel morality and crawl back under the slimy rocks from whence they came.

This, this, and this some more.

serial_crusher:

But, I also wouldn't really have expected them to have thought of that before it came up. And there's not really any damages for the victim to sue for here. She ended up not getting pregnant anyhow, so no harm no foul.

Make the sheriff change their policy, but don't give the victim any money.
So because she was lucky she doesn't deserve recompense for this treatment? What would you say if she did become pregnant, and then couldn't get an abortion because of some doctors "beliefs"?

Good thing it wasn't blood thinners and a Jehovah's Witness guard...

/oh wait, they're one of the "weirdo" sects that the Righties don't like

Why would the guard be the one to dispense medications? Most jails, prisons and correctional facilities have nurses on staff 24/7 so should they be the ones giving medications?

If the woman had gotten pregnant from the rape then the guard should have to take care of it.

Empty Matchbook: Good thing it wasn't blood thinners and a Jehovah's Witness guard...

/oh wait, they're one of the "weirdo" sects that the Righties don't like

good thing it wasn't Dr Pepper and Mormons

I feel sad that there was even a discussion on this.

If the emergency contraception pills were against the guard's religion well then it's a good thing no one was forcing the guard to take them.

Ffs.

i'm soo high on lydyathalimide sergic (LDS) acid

FraggleStickCar: Don't know if anyone else who's been locked up has chimed in yet, but guards withholding prescription meds is pretty much standard procedure.

And it should result in a lawsuit every time.