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(Deadspin)   Win: Raul Mondesi, Jr. hits game-tying HR in the bottom of the 10th inning. Fail: He doesn't touch home plate   (deadspin.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, Raul Mondesi, home -plate, home runs, fly tying  
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3056 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Jun 2012 at 12:32 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 03:10:11 PM  

DeWayne Mann: You've failed to explain why the batter cannot physically swing at the appeal throw.


I think the batter can swing at the appeal throw. I mean physically he's able to. Though just because he swings doesn't mean it actually counts as a pitch. It really depends on the situation and how the throw is made and how obvious it is that what the pitcher is attempting to do is not a pitch to the batter.
 
2012-06-26 03:12:19 PM  

exick: DeWayne Mann: You've failed to explain why the batter cannot physically swing at the appeal throw.

I think the batter can swing at the appeal throw. I mean physically he's able to. Though just because he swings doesn't mean it actually counts as a pitch. It really depends on the situation and how the throw is made and how obvious it is that what the pitcher is attempting to do is not a pitch to the batter.


So, to take the next step: batter swings at the appeal, puts it in play.

What happens now?

At some point, obviously, it ends with the ump getting pissed off and ejecting everyone. More trying to determine where that point is, based on the rules.
 
2012-06-26 03:19:11 PM  

DeWayne Mann: DoBeDoBeDo: DeWayne Mann: buckeyebrain: DeWayne Mann: Then again, the pitcher CAN be charged with a balk on an appeal, so...hmmm...

Not in this case. A balk, by definition, is an attempt to deceive a runner. But the bases are empty.

And the batter didn't come to the plate either. The whole discussion was more of a general question: can a batter swing at an appeal pitch?

It's not a pitch, pitcher steps off the rubber before throwing the ball to the catcher who has already told the ump he's appealing.

So, no, you can't swing at it.

Ok, again, here's how the discussion started:

Dafatone: I wonder if the hitter could swing at the "pitch" when the pitcher threw it in to the catcher, if he were in the box.

/Yes, he could, provided that the ball was pitched properly and the pitcher didn't step off the mound to throw home. Would have to check the replay to see if this is the case. If the hitter were in the box, the catcher'd probably come running out to the mound to get the ball.

You've failed to explain why the batter cannot physically swing at the appeal throw.


He *can* though again it's not a pitch so it wouldn't put the ball in play, he'd probably be ejected for poor sportsmanship and more than likely would just hit the catcher who is probably standing directly on top of the plate.
 
2012-06-26 03:22:22 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: would just hit the catcher who is probably standing directly on top of the plate.


Which is what I originally said.

And then I remembered that you can balk on an appeal. And if the catcher is standing on the plate, that could be called a balk.

And we're going in circles now. Wheeeee!
 
2012-06-26 03:22:42 PM  

exick: DeWayne Mann: You've failed to explain why the batter cannot physically swing at the appeal throw.

I think the batter can swing at the appeal throw. I mean physically he's able to. Though just because he swings doesn't mean it actually counts as a pitch. It really depends on the situation and how the throw is made and how obvious it is that what the pitcher is attempting to do is not a pitch to the batter.


No none of this matters.

If the pitcher's foot is on the rubber and he delivers the ball to home it's a pitch, this cannot be an appeal as an appeal has to occur before the next pitch after the play you are appealing.

the pitcher MUST step off the rubber, at that point he's just *throwing* the ball to the catcher for the appeal to take place. Optionally he can just walk up and step on the plate while declaring and appeal if he wants too (easier to throw).

If you swing at an appeal throw you're just a jackass who needs to be ejected because making contact with the ball means nothing other than someone has to go get the ball and get it to home so the appeal can be finalized.
 
2012-06-26 03:26:50 PM  

DeWayne Mann: DoBeDoBeDo: would just hit the catcher who is probably standing directly on top of the plate.

Which is what I originally said.

And then I remembered that you can balk on an appeal. And if the catcher is standing on the plate, that could be called a balk.

And we're going in circles now. Wheeeee!


No you can't, you can balk while stepping off the rubber, but once you do it's nearly impossible to balk as you are no longer in the process of pitching. The only exception being if you fake a pitch while not on the rubber.
 
2012-06-26 03:28:58 PM  
(d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.
 
2012-06-26 03:33:36 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: (d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.


And then, 4 paragraphs later:

If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play.
 
2012-06-26 03:39:10 PM  

DeWayne Mann: DoBeDoBeDo: (d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

And then, 4 paragraphs later:

If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play.


Again, I already said it's *possible* but he'd either have to be on the rubber and do one of the myriad of things considered a balk (which makes no sense since you can't appeal while ON the rubber) or step off the rubber and instead of just throwing the ball home mimic a pitch.

But he would have to BALK for it to be a play, if he asked for an appeal, and pitched the ball home (throwing while on the rubber) it's still not a play just a dead ball. Hitting a dead ball still doesn't make anything happen.

In any case the batter doesn't come into play.
 
2012-06-26 03:43:22 PM  
Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)
 
2012-06-26 03:44:25 PM  
Sorry I am incorrect you CAN appeal from the rubber you do not have to step back. But once you ask for an appeal the ball is not in play unless you balk.

So just step off the rubber and throw like a normal human being.
 
2012-06-26 03:45:25 PM  

downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)


I have never seen that.They usually mob the player at home.
 
2012-06-26 03:46:29 PM  

downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)


It wasn't a walk off, just the tieing run
 
2012-06-26 03:49:08 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: which makes no sense since you can't appeal while ON the rubber)


This is not correct. You certainly can make the appeal throw from the rubber, it's just not recommended to.
 
2012-06-26 03:50:14 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: Sorry I am incorrect you CAN appeal from the rubber you do not have to step back. But once you ask for an appeal the ball is not in play unless you balk.

So just step off the rubber and throw like a normal human being.


Ok, good. But we're back where we started.

Third trip around the circle?
 
2012-06-26 03:51:53 PM  

DeWayne Mann: DoBeDoBeDo: Sorry I am incorrect you CAN appeal from the rubber you do not have to step back. But once you ask for an appeal the ball is not in play unless you balk.

So just step off the rubber and throw like a normal human being.

Ok, good. But we're back where we started.

Third trip around the circle?


Sure, it's NOT a pitch it's an appeal. That's pretty simple. Swinging at it does dick all. Except piss off the umpire.
 
2012-06-26 03:54:07 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)

It wasn't a walk off, just the tieing run


Ahhhh... if only I'd read the friggin headline or any part of the article.

/Reading comprehension, how does that work?
 
2012-06-26 03:57:06 PM  

W.C.fields forever: downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)

I have never seen that.They usually mob the player at home.


It happens in big playoff games every now and then, where the excitement and meaning of the game is much more than a normal regular season game.

Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam, hit first base and was mobbed by the team before he hit second. At the time, that was scored as a single. The rules now say you get credit for a home run even if you don't make it home.

Maybe that only applies to certain situations, not sure.
 
2012-06-26 04:00:49 PM  

downstairs: W.C.fields forever: downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)

I have never seen that.They usually mob the player at home.

It happens in big playoff games every now and then, where the excitement and meaning of the game is much more than a normal regular season game.

Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam, hit first base and was mobbed by the team before he hit second. At the time, that was scored as a single. The rules now say you get credit for a home run even if you don't make it home.

Maybe that only applies to certain situations, not sure.



You have to touch homeplate for the run to count.This i'm sure of.
 
2012-06-26 04:30:10 PM  
W.C.fields forever:


You have to touch homeplate for the run to count.This i'm sure of.


This. The rules don't suddenly change because the ball went over the fence.
 
2012-06-26 04:56:05 PM  

W.C.fields forever: downstairs: W.C.fields forever: downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)

I have never seen that.They usually mob the player at home.

It happens in big playoff games every now and then, where the excitement and meaning of the game is much more than a normal regular season game.

Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam, hit first base and was mobbed by the team before he hit second. At the time, that was scored as a single. The rules now say you get credit for a home run even if you don't make it home.

Maybe that only applies to certain situations, not sure.


You have to touch homeplate for the run to count.This i'm sure of.


So nowadays... with the Robin Ventura example... he would be credited with a home run, but not a run... and not any RBI that didn't touch home?

But, still credited with a HR.
 
2012-06-26 05:42:38 PM  

DeWayne Mann: DoBeDoBeDo: (d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

And then, 4 paragraphs later:

If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play.


That rule is likely intended to be applied if the pitcher starts his throwing motion then decides to stop and make an appeal. In any case, the ball is dead on a balk and the batter cannot hit the ball.

downstairs: W.C.fields forever: downstairs: Someone explain this to me. I thought if you hit a walk-off home run, you didn't have to touch home plate.

Robin Ventura's notorious grand slam that was ruled a double changed the rule. You don't have to circle the bases (because often your teammates will mob you at second base in a clinching game.)

I have never seen that.They usually mob the player at home.

It happens in big playoff games every now and then, where the excitement and meaning of the game is much more than a normal regular season game.

Ventura hit a walk-off grand slam, hit first base and was mobbed by the team before he hit second. At the time, that was scored as a single. The rules now say you get credit for a home run even if you don't make it home.

Maybe that only applies to certain situations, not sure.


Umpires have the discretion to grant the run if outside circumstances (such as fans swarming the field) make it impossible for the runner to touch home. This is the only case where you do not have to touch home plate. If you fail to do so you don't get a home run, just the number of bases you gained (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_slam_single). From the rules "Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally."
 
2012-06-26 05:52:24 PM  

dywed88: Umpires have the discretion to grant the run if outside circumstances (such as fans swarming the field) make it impossible for the runner to touch home. This is the only case where you do not have to touch home plate. If you fail to do so you don't get a home run, just the number of bases you gained (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_slam_single). From the rules "Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally."


Well, fans don't swarm the field any more. Also, I swore they changed this rule after the Ventura grand slam. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
2012-06-26 05:56:03 PM  

downstairs: dywed88: Umpires have the discretion to grant the run if outside circumstances (such as fans swarming the field) make it impossible for the runner to touch home. This is the only case where you do not have to touch home plate. If you fail to do so you don't get a home run, just the number of bases you gained (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_slam_single). From the rules "Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally."

Well, fans don't swarm the field any more. Also, I swore they changed this rule after the Ventura grand slam. Maybe I'm wrong.


you could google it.I'm as lazy,too.
 
2012-06-26 06:09:13 PM  
Nope. From the official rules


6.09 The batter becomes a runner when-
...
(d) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance from home base of
250 feet or more. Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have
touched all bases legally
. A fair fly ball that passes out of the playing field at a
point less than 250 feet from home base shall entitle the batter to advance to second
base only;


Must touch all bases legally.

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out,
advance-
(a) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and
he touched all bases legally


Note that it is "may .. advance" not "advances" the rules removes the defender's right to interfere and allows runners to advance on a dead ball, that is all.

Rule 7.08(a) Comment:
This rule also covers the following and similar plays: Less than two out, score tied last of ninth
inning, runner on first, batter hits a ball out of park for winning run, the runner on first passes second and
thinking the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across diamond toward his bench as
batter-runner circles bases. In this case, the base runner would be called out "for abandoning his effort to
touch the next base" and batter-runner permitted to continue around bases to make his home run valid. If
there are two out, home run would not count


Slightly different circumstances that remove the appeal portion, but directly applicable to the Ventura incident.

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
...
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
Rule 4.09(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the
runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall
award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.


A general exception for ery limited circumstances.
 
2012-06-26 06:46:02 PM  
I can think of nothing funnier than a batter missing a bag on his way to third, then the pitcher balking while trying to appeal to the other base, the runner on third consequently scoring and the pitcher no longer being able to appeal because of the balk.

I could only hope to see such a splendid failure in my lifetime.
 
2012-06-26 07:04:25 PM  
BTW, video is down. One internet cookie to anyone who can find it somewhere else...
 
2012-06-26 08:36:29 PM  

exick: JonQDoe: Does anyone know the actual rules involved here and why he was considered out and didn't just have to come out and touch home plate? It looked like they had to throw a pitch or something before the ump would call him out - what gives?

You have to do what's called an appeal. The umpire doesn't signal whether or not someone touched a base. If he missed it and you don't notice and continue on, well tough shiat. If you think he missed the base, you can appeal to an umpire to try to get the runner ruled out. Why did he have to touch the rubber first? Because a homerun is a dead ball and the ball has to be made "live" in order to appeal. The pitcher going to the rubber makes this a live ball.


It's amazing how many people don't know this
 
2012-06-26 08:43:30 PM  

rickythepenguin: exick: The umpire doesn't signal whether or not someone touched a base. If he missed it and you don't notice and continue on, well tough shiat.


yeah....one of those things you notice moreso at the game than on TV is how intently the umpire watches the baserunner / batter touch the bag, particularly 3rd on running plays. when a guy has a full head of steam rounding second, you'll notice the 3B ump (and often the 3B coach) basically staring at the bag.

either way, they don't signal if it was touched or not. the only time you find out is when the pitcher tosses the ball to third and then the ump makes the call.


/on that note, still like the old school move 1B umps use on appeals for checked swing; slowly walking away means "no swing"


Sort of off topic, but Leyland has a great, old school move when he goes to the pen: as he walks out to the mound he holds the appropriate arm up over his head and cocks his wrist a couple of times.

Makes me smile just thinking about it
 
2012-06-26 09:50:39 PM  
Supes
My first thought: "Raul Mondesi? He's still playing? He must be ancient by now!" Then of course I saw the "Jr." attached to the name.

My first thought: "Raul Mondesi, Jr.? Hell, I photographed Raul Mondesi in his first MLB game and remember wondering if he would want an 8x10. Jesus, time flies."
 
2012-06-26 09:56:09 PM  
I was at a college baseball practice where Maury Wills was telling the players how to round the bases so that the umpires would have to assume you touched. You don't want that bag breaking your stride.
 
2012-06-26 11:04:00 PM  

Dear Jerk: I was at a college baseball practice where Maury Wills was telling the players how to round the bases so that the umpires would have to assume you touched. You don't want that bag breaking your stride.


The one I was taught as a kid was to clip the edge of the bag with your trailing toe or drag it across the top.

But I have heard of putting your foot down close enough to the bag that the ump (and opposition) can't tell for sure that you didn't touch the side and assumes you did.
 
2012-06-27 02:02:15 PM  

Supes: My first thought: "Raul Mondesi? He's still playing? He must be ancient by now!" Then of course I saw the "Jr." attached to the name.


He's not ancient. He just turned 41.
 
2012-06-27 05:24:09 PM  

DeltaPunch: BTW, video is down. One internet cookie to anyone who can find it somewhere else...


Its back up now.
 
2012-06-27 05:45:06 PM  

downstairs: DeltaPunch: BTW, video is down. One internet cookie to anyone who can find it somewhere else...

Its back up now.


Thanks!

I'd give you a cookie but, you know... you didn't find it somewhere else. ;)
 
2012-06-27 08:54:01 PM  
No, it is a news report, not the just the footage and cuts most of it out. You miss most of the pitcher catcher and umpire trying to decide what to do and you can't here the fans go from crazy excited, to confused, to pissed off. The fan reaction was actually the best part of the original video.
 
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