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(BBC)   Three ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have been arrested in Israel, suspected of defacing the national Holocaust memorial with anti-Zionist graffiti. Wait what   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 228
    More: Ironic, Orthodox Jews, Zionists, Holocaust, Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem  
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6776 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jun 2012 at 11:37 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 07:41:52 PM

intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.


More history fail.

They couldn't show up because the British and Arabs refused them.



During what time frame?

"Ben-Gurion's aim on reaching the United States in 1915 was ''to establish an army of American pioneers'' to till the soil of Palestine ''and defend it.'' World War I would provide a unique historical chance, he argued, for Jews to show their willingness to go to Eretz Israel, the Jewish homeland. Tours and exhortations followed. But more than 30 cities offered up no more than a hundred pioneers in all, a pitiful response."

Martin Gilbert - "Israel Was Everything" New York Times, June 21, 1987

Martin Gilbert history fail?

Even after the Balfour Declaration, most Jews, seeing the insanity of Zionism, stubbornly refused to move to Palestine.

In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine.
 
2012-06-26 07:42:45 PM
MadSkillz:


Well since Jewishness apparently comes from the mother only, if it's two guys, it causes some sort of program loop and shorts out the Hasidic robots.


Is Landru still at it?
 
2012-06-26 07:48:29 PM

intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: Hitler should be honored alongside Ben Gurion as a "Founding Father" of Israel. Were it not for him (or some similar character), Israel would NOT exist - because so few Jews had any desire to go that they could never have formed the necessary critical population for a Jewish State.

Ben Gurion knew this well.


Yep, you're a full blown loonie.



I refer you (once again) to the Jewish British historian Martin Gilbert:

"Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''

upload.wikimedia.org

David Ben Gurion - "main founder and the first Prime Minister of Israel"

Yep, I'm a loon all right.
 
2012-06-26 07:59:02 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: Of course. Who doubts this?

Sane people? Your own words in the following comments when you confirm that Hitler there was no desire to go to Israel until Hitler and the holocaust.


Amos Quito: As I have patiently explained to you before, the groundwork that made Israel possible - the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the "promise" of the Promised Land under the Balfour Declaration, etc, was laid long before WWII, when Hitler was an unknown nobody.

Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.

Hitler and Nazism to the rescue - thanks to those guys, Jews were beating down the door to get in.

You can't even keep your own derp straight.



Amos Quito: As to my reference to your dishonesty, it wasn't referencing the foregoing post in particular

That is because the forgoing post was accurate, as you just confirmed.



Dude, Political Zionism began in the late 1800's, and really took off after Herzl got the backing of certain VERY wealthy and powerful Jewish families (Rothschilds et al).

The Zionist LEADERS worked like hell to secure the real estate and rearrange the political landscape to make Xrael a possibility - but by and large, the Jewish PEOPLE - the typical Moe Schmoe on the street wanted NOTHING to do with the scheme - because it was a monumentally BAD IDEA: Bad for Jews, bad for the Arabs of Palestine, bad for everyone.

"The Reformed Jews rejected this idea of a return to Zion. The conference of rabbis, at Frankfurt am Main, July 15-28, 1845, deleted from the ritual all prayers for a return to Zion and a restoration of a Jewish state. The Philadelphia conference, 1869, followed the lead of the German rabbis and decreed that the Messianic hope of Israel is "the union of all the children of God in the confession of the unity of God". The Pittsburg conference, 1885, reiterated this Messianic idea of reformed Judaism, expressing in a resolution that "we consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community; and we therefore expect neither a return to Palestine, nor a sacrificial worship under the sons of Aaron, nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning a Jewish state"


How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

Or is it that you DO "get it", but you just can't stomach it, because sometimes reality stinks?


/Xionist Xrael is still a bad idea.
 
2012-06-26 08:04:00 PM

Amos Quito: In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine


What Amos likes to leave out of the little picture that he is painting here is that during that same time the legal and economic rights of jews were being restricted, and at the same time many other countries weren't really welcoming jews with open arms.
 
2012-06-26 08:07:07 PM
wantingout:

these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

Oh please. I agree with you that political Zionism had more to do with nationalism than religion and even that Zionism is rather close to fascism in some respects, but to equate the Zionists with Nazis is just silly.

Or maybe you can show us photos and leaked Top Secret documents proving the existence of Israeli death camps for Arabs?

Jackbooted thugs, yes. Death's Head SS, no.
 
2012-06-26 08:07:33 PM

Amos Quito: Even after the Balfour Declaration, most Jews, seeing the insanity of Zionism, stubbornly refused to move to Palestine.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#Jewish_immigration

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly. Combined with the growth of Arab nationalism in the region and increasing anti-Jewish sentiments the growth of Jewish population created much Arab resentment. The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each for their own reasons.
 
2012-06-26 08:08:58 PM

Amos Quito: I refer you (once again) to the Jewish British historian Martin Gilbert:

"Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''



You said Israel would not exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust. That is a lie. Your quote proves nothing of the sort. Try again, anti-Semite.
 
2012-06-26 08:09:09 PM
StoneColdAtheist:

wantingout: The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

That's a solid 7, and will hook a few of the usual suspects.


"A solid 7!?!" You're kidding me. Go imbibe vodak until you're thinking clearly.

I wouldn't rate that over a 4 when I was in a good mood. Fark's nazi trolls are strictly from hunger.
 
2012-06-26 08:13:49 PM

Ned Stark: liam76: wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

We have our first Godwin!

The Nazi's are famous for attempting to wipe out a religious minority (who never attacked them) along with others they found "undesirable" in their country and all the surrounding countries they invaded. How is that in any way like Israel?

Israel has certainly ethnically cleansed the shiat out of tracts of Palestine and herded most Palestinians into what are esentially enormous, gradually shrinking, concentration camps.

When it comes to invading all their neighbors Israels record is substantially better. 3ish compared to a dozenish.

Total killcount, Nazis are wayyy ahead.

But does "less prolific" equal "not fascist" I was under the impression that fascism was a family of political ideologies not some sort of douchebag prestige class you unlocked with enough points


That's close enough to my view. But then I'm still sober.

Stretching it bit though. If there really is a Jewish "movement" who wants to cleanse the world of Arabs and/or Muslims I can't see their militia making much headway. (The slackers.)
 
2012-06-26 08:18:07 PM
What the Jew haters really and I mean really hate is that they will always be lower and less than Jews. And they just can't stand it!
Jews have been around about as long as anyone else and despite all the wars and attempted genocides they're still here - and they're successful in everything they do. Even the pyriamids they built are still here and that wasn't even for themselves, it was some weekend contract work.
 
2012-06-26 08:18:09 PM

Amos Quito: Dude, Political Zionism began in the late 1800's, and really took off after Herzl got the backing of certain VERY wealthy and powerful Jewish families (Rothschilds et al).


Good to see you bring Herzl up again. I remember last time you used him to prove Zionism was always about Israel, too bad the links you provided on him talked about the "Uganda Project". A non-insane or honest person woudl have realized that his view of Zionism as some monolithic gorwing movement was wrong based on that. Apparently you aren't that type of person.


Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?


The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Amos Quito: Or is it that you DO "get it", but you just can't stomach it, because sometimes reality stinks?


The only thing that stinks here is your logic. Nobody denies there were lots of Zionists that wanted a jewish homeland, or that wanted it in Israel, some who (at the time) seemed overboard gonzo on wanting it (Ben Gurion for example, but after the holocaust I can't really fault him feeling that way), but as you admitted it required the holocaust for the average shlomo to be on board.

The problem is people like you take that to paint zionists (and when it is convenient for you jews in general) as being behind the holocaust. Now you won't come out and say it straight up because (just like your support for Nazi propaganda) you know if you do people will just ignore you, but that is exactly what your logic and arguments say.
 
2012-06-26 08:24:14 PM
Kittypie070:

What the fark is The One True TheDavid's facination with killin Chinks!?

Not "killin' Chinks."

I'm talking about thwarting the "Communist" Party of China's plan for global hegemony. If it can be done without taking a single life that would be better, but somehow I can't see the Politburo all retiring because some guy on the Internet says they're wrong.
 
2012-06-26 08:35:13 PM
i.imgur.com

This is the most esoteric, rambling thread I've ever rad on FARK.
 
2012-06-26 08:37:12 PM
Amos Quito:

In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine.

If so good for them. You're supposed to try to save people from worsening oppression that clearly won't end well; that it's Jews trying to rescue other Jews doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

If more German & European Jews had listened and fled before it was too late there wouldn't have been a holocaust of such proportions. But no, they made jokes about tinfoil helmets (or something).

If they start gunning for Internet "trolls" I'll have to do something for you. As for the "warning" part, ever heard of Julian Assange?

Sheesh.
 
2012-06-26 08:38:53 PM
unitedwithisrael.org

Gotta love Israel.
 
2012-06-26 08:43:24 PM
liam76:

Amos Quito: In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine

What Amos likes to leave out of the little picture that he is painting here is that during that same time the legal and economic rights of jews were being restricted, and at the same time many other countries weren't really welcoming jews with open arms.


True. But it seems to me if more German Jews had wanted to GTFO the world would have had to make some place for them to go. Maybe not Palestine, but somewhere safe.

Or do I have too high an opinion of my fellow humans again?
 
2012-06-26 08:44:41 PM
Porous Horace:

What the Jew haters really and I mean really hate is that they will always be lower and less than Jews. And they just can't stand it!
Jews have been around about as long as anyone else and despite all the wars and attempted genocides they're still here - and they're successful in everything they do. Even the pyriamids they built are still here and that wasn't even for themselves, it was some weekend contract work.


Now that might be worth a 7.
 
2012-06-26 08:46:57 PM
Last post in the thread before I get to my grillin'. I win!!
 
2012-06-26 08:58:42 PM

The One True TheDavid: StoneColdAtheist: wantingout: The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

That's a solid 7, and will hook a few of the usual suspects.

"A solid 7!?!" You're kidding me. Go imbibe vodak until you're thinking clearly.

I wouldn't rate that over a 4 when I was in a good mood. Fark's nazi trolls are strictly from hunger.


A 4? Really? REALLY!?! Oh, come on...on a 1 to 10 scale a "5" is average, and IMHO wantingout's post is a solidly better-than-average effort. Decent spelling and grammar (ignoring capitalization...); no polemics, and a nice ending on a passive verb. Ya gotta love it! ;^)
 
2012-06-26 09:00:25 PM

intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: I refer you (once again) to the Jewish British historian Martin Gilbert:

"Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''


You said Israel would not exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust. That is a lie. Your quote proves nothing of the sort. Try again, anti-Semite.



Ben Gurion made the above statement BEFORE the onset of WWII. He is clearly stating that his primary motive for moving Jews out of Germany is NOT to "save" them, but to build a viable Jewish population in Palestine so that his dream of a Jewish State might come to fruition.

And no, the Israel we all know and love could NOT have come into being without the Holocaust and associated tensions because A) There were not enough Jews in Palestine to form a viable State and B) The international political will necessary for recognition of such a state did not exist.

The Holocaust is THE primary reason cited for Israel's "right to exist", and you're trying to pretend that Israel would have spontaneously formed without the Holocaust (or as similar event) to FORCE Jews into Palestine and generate the sympathy necessary for international recognition?

How?
 
2012-06-26 09:05:12 PM

The One True TheDavid: liam76:

Amos Quito: In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine

What Amos likes to leave out of the little picture that he is painting here is that during that same time the legal and economic rights of jews were being restricted, and at the same time many other countries weren't really welcoming jews with open arms.

True. But it seems to me if more German Jews had wanted to GTFO the world would have had to make some place for them to go. Maybe not Palestine, but somewhere safe.

Or do I have too high an opinion of my fellow humans again?



Asshat Zionists didn't want Europe's Jews to be able to move anywhere BUT Palestine, as the the Ben Gurion quote above clearly demonstrates.

The Zionist goal was not to "save Jews", but to form a Zionist State, and they didn't give a damn if they broke a few eggs while making their omelet.
 
2012-06-26 09:12:24 PM

Amos Quito: intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: I refer you (once again) to the Jewish British historian Martin Gilbert:

"Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''


You said Israel would not exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust. That is a lie. Your quote proves nothing of the sort. Try again, anti-Semite.


Ben Gurion made the above statement BEFORE the onset of WWII. He is clearly stating that his primary motive for moving Jews out of Germany is NOT to "save" them, but to build a viable Jewish population in Palestine so that his dream of a Jewish State might come to fruition.

And no, the Israel we all know and love could NOT have come into being without the Holocaust and associated tensions because A) There were not enough Jews in Palestine to form a viable State and B) The international political will necessary for recognition of such a state did not exist.

The Holocaust is THE primary reason cited for Israel's "right to exist", and you're trying to pretend that Israel would have spontaneously formed without the Holocaust (or as similar event) to FORCE Jews into Palestine and generate the sympathy necessary for international recognition?

How?



I like how you didn't address your first LIE about nobody wanting to move, now you're peddling more shiat. Go get ready for your Klan meeting. Don't want to be late. Last one ties up the negro.
 
2012-06-26 09:12:40 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.



Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?
 
2012-06-26 09:13:44 PM

The One True TheDavid: True. But it seems to me if more German Jews had wanted to GTFO the world would have had to make some place for them to go. Maybe not Palestine, but somewhere safe.

Or do I have too high an opinion of my fellow humans again?



The fact that Amos seems to keep ignoring is that the world refused entry for Jews everywhere they tried to go, including British Palestine.

He has spun that into a lie about Jews willingly dying in ovens because they were too stupid to move anywhere.
 
2012-06-26 09:14:46 PM

Amos Quito: Asshat Zionists didn't want Europe's Jews to be able to move anywhere BUT Palestine, as the the Ben Gurion quote above clearly demonstrates.

The Zionist goal was not to "save Jews", but to form a Zionist State, and they didn't give a damn if they broke a few eggs while making their omelet.




Again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#Jewish_immigration

Initially, Jewish immigration to Palestine met little opposition from the Palestinian Arabs. However, as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly. Combined with the growth of Arab nationalism in the region and increasing anti-Jewish sentiments the growth of Jewish population created much Arab resentment. The British government placed limitations on Jewish immigration to Palestine. These quotas were controversial, particularly in the latter years of British rule, and both Arabs and Jews disliked the policy, each for their own reasons.
 
2012-06-26 09:15:30 PM

The One True TheDavid: liam76:

Amos Quito: In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine

What Amos likes to leave out of the little picture that he is painting here is that during that same time the legal and economic rights of jews were being restricted, and at the same time many other countries weren't really welcoming jews with open arms.

True. But it seems to me if more German Jews had wanted to GTFO the world would have had to make some place for them to go. Maybe not Palestine, but somewhere safe.

Or do I have too high an opinion of my fellow humans again?


Hahahahahaha


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

Way to high.
 
2012-06-26 09:22:48 PM

intelligent comment below: I like how you didn't address your first LIE about nobody wanting to move, now you're peddling more shiat.



Prior to the rise of Hitler and Nazism very few Jews were interested in the stupicidal Zionist scheme - and with good reason.

But how did Hitler and Nazism manage to come to power? To answer that, you'll have to explore these questions:


How was Balfour Declaration formed, and by who?

Who made what promises to who, and in exchange for what?

What impact did the fulfillment of said promises and exchanges have on the outcome of WWI, and of Germany's fate in particular?

How did these events impact the relationships between certain ethnic groups in Europe, and especially in Germany?
 
2012-06-26 09:29:27 PM

Amos Quito: But how did Hitler and Nazism manage to come to power?



Let me guess, the Jew bankers?
 
2012-06-26 09:37:40 PM

Amos Quito: Prior to the rise of Hitler and Nazism very few Jews were interested in the stupicidal Zionist scheme - and with good reason.


What's the reason?

Aside from that, all this BS is tiring and I barely remember what TFA is about.
It's the same threadshiatting every time with you.
Why don't you find a friend or another hobby?

And just so you don't feel bad, here is a lovely parting gift.

rlv.zcache.com

Or in case that's not your bag, here's one of those chain wallets that I've noticed many skinheads carrying:

www.jesusboat.com

You can fill it with Jewbank money, if you have any.
 
2012-06-26 09:50:54 PM
"lehavdil bein kodesh l'chol"

Could somebody please translate and explain this? The first several pages from Google are more transliterated Hebrew I don't understand.
 
2012-06-26 10:04:09 PM
The $64 question is, why would God care so much about, of everything in this entire infinite universe, a small patch of desert? And why would he set it aside as the super-duper holy promised land of his special little chosen one clique?

"Yeah, um, thanks for the sand and scorpions and 100+-degree heat, God. Your love is a never-ending fountain of perfection." *sits down on a scorpion* "Ow."
 
2012-06-26 10:10:25 PM
intelligent comment below:

Amos Quito: But how did Hitler and Nazism manage to come to power?

Let me guess, the Jew bankers?


Actually it was the rich German gentile corporate types. Who owned big factories. That many of them had borrowed from "the Jews" to support.

Once Hitler came to power some German Jewish bankers (and psychiatrists and dentists and...) started trying to shift their money out of Germany. Too bad they couldn't shift more of their extended families too. But the Gentile world was not willing to absorb more Jews in such numbers, not even if they could get a big portion of their money out with them. Especially not the USA, with its racial quotas.

The USA was in the forefront of the "racial purity" movement for half a century before the Nazi takeover; in fact the Nazis learned quite a bit from them. And the Goebbels propaganda machine was modeled on the ad campaign that got the US into WW1.
 
2012-06-26 10:41:24 PM
i2.ytimg.com

/best I could find on really short notice.
//hot like the new episodes.
 
2012-06-26 10:43:27 PM

LMark: liam76: LMark: there were countries, like the United States, whose founding fathers were great men.

Who owned slaves, didn't think women should vote, etc

Not all owned slaves. John Adams didn't own slaves, for instance. And women's suffrage wasn't even on the radar at the time. It would have been like saying that someone was a bad guy because he opposed gay marriage in 1930.


All he wants to do is sit on his mountain top created by past progressives so he can criticize past progressives for not having been progressive enough. It's an awfully tough burden he's taken upon himself.
 
2012-06-27 12:32:05 AM

intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: But how did Hitler and Nazism manage to come to power?


Let me guess, the Jew bankers?


1.bp.blogspot.com

We made up the Five Jew Bankers...
 
2012-06-27 02:54:48 AM

Amos Quito: intelligent comment below: Amos Quito: Hitler should be honored alongside Ben Gurion as a "Founding Father" of Israel. Were it not for him (or some similar character), Israel would NOT exist - because so few Jews had any desire to go that they could never have formed the necessary critical population for a Jewish State.

Ben Gurion knew this well.


Yep, you're a full blown loonie.


I refer you (once again) to the Jewish British historian Martin Gilbert:

"Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''



David Ben Gurion - "main founder and the first Prime Minister of Israel"

Yep, I'm a loon all right.


Not a loon, just an anti-semite turd who still tries to present out of context and misleading quotes as proof for your conspiracy theories which were already debunked and ridiculed in the past.

Get some new material.
 
2012-06-27 07:04:25 AM

Amos Quito: The One True TheDavid: liam76:

Amos Quito: In fact during the 1930's, the Zionists cooperated closely with the NAZIS to help move as many Jews as possible to Palestine

What Amos likes to leave out of the little picture that he is painting here is that during that same time the legal and economic rights of jews were being restricted, and at the same time many other countries weren't really welcoming jews with open arms.

True. But it seems to me if more German Jews had wanted to GTFO the world would have had to make some place for them to go. Maybe not Palestine, but somewhere safe.

Or do I have too high an opinion of my fellow humans again?


Asshat Zionists didn't want Europe's Jews to be able to move anywhere BUT Palestine, as the the Ben Gurion quote above clearly demonstrates.

The Zionist goal was not to "save Jews", but to form a Zionist State, and they didn't give a damn if they broke a few eggs while making their omelet.


You know that is not true, and this has been pointed out to you many times.

With regard to your cherry picked Ben Gurion line,

By cherry-picking a single comment, removing it from its context, and ignoring other comments made by Ben Gurion that directly contradict this interpretation, the author distorts history.

The Ben Gurion quote is taken from comments he made to Mapai's central committee on December 7, 1938. This followed Britain's decision to deny entrance into Palestine of 10,000 German Jewish orphans in the wake of Kristallnacht, instead offering them asylum within Great Britain. It was almost a year before the Nazis launched World War II and several years before the Final Solution (to annihilate the Jews) was methodically implemented. While Ben Gurion believed that Germany's anti-Jewish policies would necessitate creating a safe haven for numerous Jewish refugees that no other country was willing to accept, he had no way of predicting the enormity of what was to follow.

The British offer to accept several thousand children appeared to be a gesture of conscience allowing Britain to close the doors of Palestine - not only to those German orphans, but to future refugees as well. Ben Gurion had recently witnessed the results of the international Evian conference, which had been convened in July 1938 to address the growing Jewish refugee problem, and knew that other countries were also unwilling to accept hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees. He believed that only a Jewish homeland would be able to properly absorb these Jews. Thus Ben Gurion stated that "our concern is not only the personal interest of these children, but the historic interest of the Jewish people" (translation from the stenographic records by Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Holocaust, Harcourt Brace & Co. 1996, p. 47).

According to the records of the Mapai meeting, Yitzchak Ben Zvi immediately clarified Ben Gurion's brusque remark, explaining "ten thousand children are a small part of Germany's [Jewish] children...They [the British] don't intend to save Germany's Jews, and certainly not all of them. The moment the Jewish State Plan [the Peel plan] was shelved, the possibility of complete rescue of Germany's Jews was shelved with it." (ibid. p. 48)

There is ample evidence - ignored by Ignatiev - that Ben Gurion viewed the rescue of Jews as paramount. As early as 1936, Ben Gurion told Palestine's high commissioner, Sir Arthur Wauchope, that "had there been the possiblity of bringing Poland's Jews to the United States or Argentina, we would have done so regardless of our Zionist beliefs. But the world was closed to us. And had there also not been room for us in Palestine, our people would have had only one way out: to commit suicide" (Ben Gurion, Memoirs, p.3:105, cited in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Holocaust, pp xlix, 110). And in November 1941, Ben Gurion argued that "the supremely important thing now is salvage, and nation-building is incidental" (Teveth, ibid. p.xlviii).


http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.

The link I posted in response to him showed how difficult it was for jews to get to other countries. The only way you can pin that n the zionists is if you think they control all the countries jews weren't allowed in. So which is it, are being dishonest about zionists being the main cause or are you crazy enough to think that they control the immigration policies of Cuba and the US?



Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?


That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?
 
2012-06-27 07:33:57 AM

wudu5: I just don't know how you manage to say this with a straight face. Most Haredi do NOT pay taxes since they do not work. They get s stipend to learn in Yeshiva. Of course many of them do not actually learn and work getting paid cash and not paying taxes.


I manage to say this with a straight face thanks to three things

1 - I am Chareidi
2 - I live in Israel and inside Chareidi neighborhoods (it really doesn't get more Chareidi than where I live)
3 - I have facts to back up what I say.

There are more or less 800,000 Chareidi Jews in Israel, roughly 14% of the population. If you add those Sefardim and religious-Zionist who straddle the line into this world, it goes up easily to 1,100,000 or so.

Based on the Ministry of Religion in Israel, there were 109,956 adult talmidim learning in Yeshivot/Kollelim in E"Y in 1998-1999 with an average growth of 2% a year.

Out of those 109,956 talmidim, nearly 20,000 of them are foreigners without citizenship (such as Americans taking a few years to learn) and so on.

Even if you take the lower estimate of Chareidi Jews in Israel, only 10% of all Chareidi Jews are full-time learners in kollel. The others, especially the women, definitely all work, and a huge proportion of the men work, especially in the Chassidic and Sefardi circles. Those who are fans of kollel for life tend to be mostly litvaks and a few Chareidi groups, but not the majority by far.


So that's why I manage to say this with a straight face. I am not blinded by prejudice against the Chareidi and I can examine straight facts and see if they hold up to what people love to parrot but has no basis in reality.

wudu5: Almost no Haredi goes to the army. Even fewer (82 out of ~6000 eligible last year) do any sort of social services instead of the army. The Haredi's may not be anti zionistic but they definitely do not participate in the burden of the state of Israel and as a matter of fact just increase the burden.


For every Chareidi Jew accepted in Chareidi units of the IDF, there are 8 that are rejected.

It's the IDF that is refusing to augment the number of Chareidi Jews it can receive in the army, as they have themselves declared that they'd rather not have the religious serve, as they tend to be more loyal to Torah and their Rabbis than their officers.

If there are not more Chareidi Jews in the army, its because the IDF does not want them and is not willing to accommodate them.

wudu5: A minority does work, an even smaller minority serves in the army, but if there is something that is against their religious views thousands will gather, throw stones on cars, demolish a memorial garden in memory of a soldier (for example) and generally ignore the civil law. Of course once their demands are met, then everything is dandy.
/sorry about the outburst
//modern orthodox Jew and feel closer or reform or conservative than toward Haredi's


There are not 'thousands who gather and throw stones on cars'. These people are part of a very very tiny minority (that is mostly again Neturei Karta) and throwing on cars is absolutely not tolerated in Chareidi society, literally every great Rabbi has come out and said its forbidden to do something like that.

There are a few hundreds of hooligans who do not listen to Rabbis. That's enough for you to indict and vilify a million of us.

That is a shame, and I am willing to bet that you certainly wouldn't react that way toward, say, Muslims as a whole.
 
2012-06-27 11:27:25 AM

The One True TheDavid: intelligent comment below:

Amos Quito: But how did Hitler and Nazism manage to come to power?

Let me guess, the Jew bankers?

Actually it was the rich German gentile corporate types. Who owned big factories. That many of them had borrowed from "the Jews" to support.

Once Hitler came to power some German Jewish bankers (and psychiatrists and dentists and...) started trying to shift their money out of Germany. Too bad they couldn't shift more of their extended families too. But the Gentile world was not willing to absorb more Jews in such numbers, not even if they could get a big portion of their money out with them. Especially not the USA, with its racial quotas.

The USA was in the forefront of the "racial purity" movement for half a century before the Nazi takeover; in fact the Nazis learned quite a bit from them. And the Goebbels propaganda machine was modeled on the ad campaign that got the US into WW1.


Actually, what brought the US into WW1 were German saboteurs and agents provocateurs, the latter fomenting trouble between the US and Mexico (whose president didn't like us very much anyway.) Wilson actually ran on a pacifist ticket, at least as far as involvement inthe war was concerned. (He was happy to sell arms and ammutition though.)
 
2012-06-27 04:37:17 PM

liam76: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.



CAMERA???

Main article title:

UPDATED: Gale Cengage Encyclopedia Uses Falsehoods to Equate Zionism and Racism

Extreme Anti-Zionist Commissioned to Author Article on Zionism



What, you couldn't find a more bald-faced Zionist Apologist website to quote?


liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?


That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?



The question is, what was the cause of "Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism".
 
2012-06-27 05:58:47 PM

Amos Quito: liam76: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.


CAMERA???

Main article title:

UPDATED: Gale Cengage Encyclopedia Uses Falsehoods to Equate Zionism and Racism

Extreme Anti-Zionist Commissioned to Author Article on Zionism


What, you couldn't find a more bald-faced Zionist Apologist website to quote?


liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?


That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?


The question is, what was the cause of "Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism".


I think it was the round, furry hats

images.brisbanetimes.com.au
 
2012-06-27 08:36:31 PM

Amos Quito: liam76: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.

What, you couldn't find a more bald-faced Zionist Apologist website to quote?


So I take that to mean you can't refute any of the fact sin the article, you dishonest piece of shiat.


Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?


That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?


The question is, what was the cause of "Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism"


Let me guess, the Jews?

A flat out question about the holocaust and its causes being a lie and you can't answer it. And you are surprised people see you as an anti-semite who supports Nazi-Propaganda.
 
2012-06-27 08:42:59 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.

What, you couldn't find a more bald-faced Zionist Apologist website to quote?

So I take that to mean you can't refute any of the fact sin the article, you dishonest piece of shiat.


Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: How many times do you need to see this material before you finally "get it"?

The only one here who doesn't get it is you. In one breath you say Israel was all because of zionists and in the next you say it needed Hitler (and presumably the Holocaust) to get average jews on board.

This only makes sense if you think the Zionists were behind Hitler/the Holocaust.


Baby Bush and his band of Nasty NeoCons said/implied that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 and had WMD's (all lies), and used this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

According to your line of reasoning, BushCo must therefor be behind 9/11.

Isn't that right?


That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?


The question is, what was the cause of "Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism"

Let me guess, the Jews?

A flat out question about the holocaust and its causes being a lie and you can't answer it. And you are surprised people see you as an anti-semite who supports Nazi-Propaganda.


I like how he treats it as a QED, end of debate question. He literally cannot understand NOT hating Jews.
 
2012-06-27 09:09:36 PM

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=1566

This has all been pointed out to you before, you dishonest piece of shiat.

What, you couldn't find a more bald-faced Zionist Apologist website to quote?

So I take that to mean you can't refute any of the fact sin the article, you dishonest piece of shiat.



You from above:


liam76: The link I posted in response to him showed how difficult it was for jews to get to other countries. The only way you can pin that n the zionists is if you think they control all the countries jews weren't allowed in.



So why weren't the Jews "allowed in" to ANY other country on the planet?

Did every other country on the planet HATE JEWS SO MUCH that they wouldn't let them in? Could that be the case? if so, why? Why the hatred?

Or could it be that Hitler and the Nazis somehow magically controlled the immigration policies of every other nation on the planet?

If, as you insist, the Zionists' only interest was saving the Jews - regardless of where they went - those are the only two options, no?

So which is it?

Oh, and CAMERA??? Sorry, but quoting Zionist apologists quoting other Zionist apologists in their pathetic attempts to cover up for the rabid Ben Gurion and his pals doesn't carry much weight.


liam76: That would be a good analogy if you thought the Holocaust or its causes (Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism) was a lie, is that the case?


The question is, what was the cause of "Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism"

Let me guess, the Jews?



No, it couldn't have been the "the Jews". They weren't even in the neighborhood. Airtight alibi.


liam76: A flat out question about the holocaust and its causes being a lie and you can't answer it.



Obviously the cause of the Holocaust was ""Extreme Nazi Anti-semetism", you dingbat.

The question that neither you nor any of your fellow Israeli Defense Farker pals EVER dare to address is WHY THE ANTI-SEMITSM?

The only way that you and your IDF pals can answer that is by accusing anyone who asks of being an anti-Semite.

Isn't that right, Liam76?
 
2012-06-27 09:17:35 PM

Fano: I like how he treats it as a QED, end of debate question. He literally cannot understand NOT hating Jews.



So can you answer the question, Fano?

What possessed the German people - one of the most technically and socially advanced societies on the planet, to suddenly "go insane" and begin hating and persecuting the Jews?

And if what Liam76 says is true, and NO OTHER COUNTRY would accept these helpless hapless souls to free them from certain destruction, why?

Did the whole world just go insane and hate "the Jews" for no reason?

Or is daring to ask WHY proof of anti-Semitism in an of itself?
 
2012-06-27 09:36:59 PM

Amos Quito: Fano: I like how he treats it as a QED, end of debate question. He literally cannot understand NOT hating Jews.


So can you answer the question, Fano?

What possessed the German people - one of the most technically and socially advanced societies on the planet, to suddenly "go insane" and begin hating and persecuting the Jews?

And if what Liam76 says is true, and NO OTHER COUNTRY would accept these helpless hapless souls to free them from certain destruction, why?

Did the whole world just go insane and hate "the Jews" for no reason?

Or is daring to ask WHY proof of anti-Semitism in an of itself?


Jesus.
 
2012-06-28 02:23:49 AM
Yuck, my paws are dirty from wading in muck.
 
2012-06-28 07:02:21 AM

Amos Quito: So why weren't the Jews "allowed in" to ANY other country on the planet?

Did every other country on the planet HATE JEWS SO MUCH that they wouldn't let them in? Could that be the case? if so, why? Why the hatred?


Any country in the planet? Who said that?


You familiar with the great depression? You understand how during a depression most countries aren't keen on immigration, especially from a religious group they see as foreign?

Amos Quito: Or could it be that Hitler and the Nazis somehow magically controlled the immigration policies of every other nation on the planet?

If, as you insist, the Zionists' only interest was saving the Jews - regardless of where they went - those are the only two options, no?

So which is it?


No idea what you are talking about here.


Oh, and CAMERA??? Sorry, but quoting Zionist apologists quoting other Zionist apologists in their pathetic attempts to cover up for the rabid Ben Gurion and his pals doesn't carry much weight.

Well the link I was refering to in that snippet was wikipedia. As for the Camera link, please point out any errors or admit your quote is out of context or misleading.


Amos Quito: The only way that you and your IDF pals can answer that is by accusing anyone who asks of being an anti-Semite.


Anyone who asks, no. Somone who has a history of supporting Nazi propaganda, yes.
 
2012-06-28 11:53:24 AM

Fano: Amos Quito: Fano: I like how he treats it as a QED, end of debate question. He literally cannot understand NOT hating Jews.


So can you answer the question, Fano?

What possessed the German people - one of the most technically and socially advanced societies on the planet, to suddenly "go insane" and begin hating and persecuting the Jews?

And if what Liam76 says is true, and NO OTHER COUNTRY would accept these helpless hapless souls to free them from certain destruction, why?

Did the whole world just go insane and hate "the Jews" for no reason?

Or is daring to ask WHY proof of anti-Semitism in an of itself?

Jesus.



Oh sure, blame a Jew.
 
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