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(BBC)   Three ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have been arrested in Israel, suspected of defacing the national Holocaust memorial with anti-Zionist graffiti. Wait what   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 228
    More: Ironic, Orthodox Jews, Zionists, Holocaust, Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem  
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6777 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jun 2012 at 11:37 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 01:41:36 PM  

Fano: This thread has a conspicuous lack of our most renowned Jew haters.


Must be two-for-one Tuesday down at the donut shop.
 
2012-06-26 01:42:25 PM  
My jewish friend at work sums up the jewish religious spectrum as "Its really complicated"
 
2012-06-26 01:44:44 PM  
these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.
 
2012-06-26 01:46:02 PM  
These people must wear some tinfoil yalmukas (great band name BTW) I figured it would be some extremists trying to whip up some anti muslim sentiment. But this is just wow.
 
2012-06-26 02:01:57 PM  

wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.


How would you resolve the conflict?
 
2012-06-26 02:05:57 PM  

wantingout: The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.


That's a solid 7, and will hook a few of the usual suspects.
 
2012-06-26 02:09:12 PM  

wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.


We have our first Godwin!

The Nazi's are famous for attempting to wipe out a religious minority (who never attacked them) along with others they found "undesirable" in their country and all the surrounding countries they invaded. How is that in any way like Israel?
 
2012-06-26 02:12:42 PM  

Tatsuma: StoneColdAtheist: You missed the two that are in there, plus the implied one?

yeah I was typing a bit too fast and jumped over one 'are'

My whole post is now invalid and I am now Neturei Karta


... and Palin is President of Israel.
 
2012-06-26 02:13:37 PM  

Tatsuma: Dr Dreidel: Farking Satmars. The farking WBC of Judaism. Rest assured, if there is a morally defensible position, these farkers will be nowhere near it. Every other sect of Chasidut is pretty cool (except when they're being morons about social norms), but Satmars...fark them with a rusty steak knife.

Satmar are not Neturei Karta, have dissociated from them, and forbid any contact with those people


So I stand corrected. Fark the NK with rusty steak knives.

And, if I may offer my explanation of Chasidut vs regular Orthodoxy (which are not mutually exclusive):
-Chasidim have (as most other do) a rabbi "in charge" of issuing rulings - their local authority when questions arise. The sects are named for where they began or made their home base - sects housed in Boston, Vizhnitz, Belz, Ger, New Square, Satmar and Lubav gave us Bostoners, Vizhnitzers, Belzers (not Richard, though his family waaaaaaay back might have been members), Gerers (of which my family waaaaaaaaay back were members), "Nusqvers", Satmars and Lubavitchers, respectively. Most non-Chasidic Orthodox people have a family tradition rather than hew to the sect's rules.
-Chasidut follows a spiritual parallel world. Everything that exists in physical form has a parallel form in the spiritual plane. Therefore, a person can act in the physical world ("living to eat") or in the spiritual world ("eating to live"). There's a tradition to eat 3 meals on the Sabbath (recall that it starts at night, so it'd be Friday dinner, Saturday lunch, then a third meal), and Chasidim believe that that meal is the ultimate expression of "eating to live", as you're already stuffed from lunch, so this meal is purely spiritual - to fulfill the rule to eat thrice.
-Following that, a Chasid believes that everything he does, he does for god. Even honoring other people is honoring god, as we're all built in god's image.

Of course, they sometimes misplace their priorities. Who doesn't?

// spray-painted all over Jerusalem: "Derech eretz kadma l'torah" - "Respect for others precedes Torah"
// sadly, a lesson many have forgotten
// which is why they've taken to tagging building with the phrase
 
2012-06-26 02:17:34 PM  

Valiente: Fano: This thread has a conspicuous lack of our most renowned Jew haters.

Must be two-for-one Tuesday down at the donut shop.



No. I had to go pick up my Elmo suit at the cleaners
 
2012-06-26 02:19:48 PM  

DavidVincent: Valiente: Fano: This thread has a conspicuous lack of our most renowned Jew haters.

Must be two-for-one Tuesday down at the donut shop.


No. I had to go pick up my Elmo suit at the cleaners


Did the cops even offer to pay?
 
2012-06-26 02:29:07 PM  

liam76: LMark: there were countries, like the United States, whose founding fathers were great men.

Who owned slaves, didn't think women should vote, etc


Not all owned slaves. John Adams didn't own slaves, for instance. And women's suffrage wasn't even on the radar at the time. It would have been like saying that someone was a bad guy because he opposed gay marriage in 1930.
 
2012-06-26 02:33:19 PM  
there are people who still don't know that hitler was a jewish plant whose place in history was pre-planned in order to create the israeli nation, and to frighten and intimidate anyone who might ever say anything negative about anyone who might be jewish, or in some way in business with people who might be jewish?

how many minds have been raped by public education?
 
2012-06-26 02:35:44 PM  
this is what you get when you take the ten commandments out of context and then claim the moral high ground.

we're all just people.

we all poop.
 
2012-06-26 02:36:17 PM  

liam76: wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

We have our first Godwin!

The Nazi's are famous for attempting to wipe out a religious minority (who never attacked them) along with others they found "undesirable" in their country and all the surrounding countries they invaded. How is that in any way like Israel?


Israel has certainly ethnically cleansed the shiat out of tracts of Palestine and herded most Palestinians into what are esentially enormous, gradually shrinking, concentration camps.

When it comes to invading all their neighbors Israels record is substantially better. 3ish compared to a dozenish.

Total killcount, Nazis are wayyy ahead.

But does "less prolific" equal "not fascist" I was under the impression that fascism was a family of political ideologies not some sort of douchebag prestige class you unlocked with enough points
 
2012-06-26 02:38:18 PM  
imagine the chaos if the united states tried to really be "jesusland".

it would look like this.

only larger.

-because we like to super size.
 
2012-06-26 02:49:41 PM  

dittybopper: [bighugelabs.com image 640x512]


j.wigflip.com
 
2012-06-26 03:02:15 PM  
I can't say that I am really surprised. It seems like almost every time there is a story in the newspapers in NYC about a jewish neighborhood being tagged with swastikas and other anti-jewish graffitti, that a few weeks later (after press conferences from every Jewish leader in the city denouncing the hate coming from Christians/Muslims/whomever) it comes out that it was done by other Jews.
 
2012-06-26 03:13:01 PM  

Tatsuma: The vast majority of Israelis do not give any legitimacy to reform Judaism. This is seen as an american abomination and it has no roots in Israel whatsoever. That's why secular Israelis are fond of saying 'The synagogue I don't go to is Orthodox'.


Well, there's also the fact that there are only a handful of non-Orthodox state-funded synagogues. And that marriage/divorce/conversion/etc are controlled by the (exclusively orthodox) chief rabbinate. Maybe it's not that secular israeli's "do not give any legitimacy to reform [and conservative] Judaism," but rather that secular israelis don't care one way or the other, but Orthodox synagogues are the only game in town.
 
2012-06-26 03:23:54 PM  
What the fark is The One True TheDavid's facination with killin Chinks!?
 
2012-06-26 03:25:01 PM  

dittybopper: [bighugelabs.com image 640x512]


j.wigflip.com
 
2012-06-26 03:25:28 PM  
Pardon my brain fart, that's fascination.
 
2012-06-26 03:27:24 PM  

MadSkillz: wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

How would you resolve the conflict?


LOL How amusing! I have them farkied as, "likely racist" and ignored. Ah well...
 
2012-06-26 03:30:09 PM  

rpl: Zealous Muslims blow stuff up.
Zealous Christians shoot up abortion clinics.
Zealous Jews spray paint.

Goddamn we're dorks.


They use non-kosher spray paint though. Because they are edgy.
 
2012-06-26 04:02:21 PM  
pardon my knoweldge quest but what's ZEal mean??
 
2012-06-26 04:13:25 PM  

ChipNASA: dittybopper: [bighugelabs.com image 640x512]

[j.wigflip.com image 640x512]


And it comes full circle:

The first store, originally named "Pep Auto Supplies", was founded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1921 by Emanuel (Manny) Rosenfeld, Maurice L. (Moe) Strauss, W. Graham (Jack) Jackson, and Moe Radavitz.
 
2012-06-26 04:48:17 PM  

liam76: "If Hitler had not existed, the Zionists would have invented him."

Amos is an ultra-orthodox jew living in Israel?!?!



Your idiocy I can overlook, liar76.

Your dishonesty - not so much.
 
2012-06-26 05:04:20 PM  

UnspokenVoice: MadSkillz: wantingout: these ultra-orthodox jews are correct. The sooner the world wakes and realizes that the zionists(who are basically the modern-day nazis) USED judaism to further their own fascist ideals, the better off we'll be.

How would you resolve the conflict?

LOL How amusing! I have them farkied as, "likely racist" and ignored. Ah well...


Ouch... Hopefully not me, though I admit I over generalize.

This is a complex issue. But as I said before, nutters in every sect.... Even ones that appear to value reason as much as Judaism proscribes.
 
2012-06-26 05:08:12 PM  

Amos Quito: liam76: "If Hitler had not existed, the Zionists would have invented him."

Amos is an ultra-orthodox jew living in Israel?!?!

Your idiocy I can overlook, liar76.

Your dishonesty - not so much.


I have to admit that I laughed at the thought... ;^)
 
2012-06-26 05:08:40 PM  

cowpun: Tatsuma: StoneColdAtheist: You missed the two that are in there, plus the implied one?

yeah I was typing a bit too fast and jumped over one 'are'

My whole post is now invalid and I am now Neturei Karta

... and Palin is President of Israel.


If only... from your mouth to G-d's ear.
 
2012-06-26 05:10:05 PM  

Tatsuma: indylaw: That wasn't the reference :)

Breaking Bad is superior to Big Lebowski. It's just a fact.


I could overlook every other disagreement I have with you, but that's beyond the pale.
 
2012-06-26 05:17:15 PM  

snowybunting: [img694.imageshack.us image 480x384]


Where did they get those furry go-kart tires for their heads?
 
2012-06-26 06:22:19 PM  

Amos Quito: liam76: "If Hitler had not existed, the Zionists would have invented him."

Amos is an ultra-orthodox jew living in Israel?!?!


Your idiocy I can overlook, liar76.

Your dishonesty - not so much.


IIRC you seem to be of the mind that jews in general and Zionists in particular have been behind the events that made Israel possible. So unless I am mistaken and you can come out and say that the driving force behind widespread zionism was the holocaust then it isn't dishonest to attribute a quote like that to you.
 
2012-06-26 06:48:02 PM  
it's ironic.

most of the very religious right wingers i know...only support israel, because they want it destroyed.

i consider that to be very farked up.

everyone has kids.

what they hell are we doing.

i always thought and hoped, that deep down...everyone was basically "good".

i do not go to church any more.
 
2012-06-26 06:50:13 PM  
i would like to have seen montana.
 
2012-06-26 07:00:16 PM  
The Messiah doesn't want to come back, ya'll are a farked up bunch of animals.
 
2012-06-26 07:07:31 PM  
Tatsuma:

The vast majority of Chareidi Jews are non-Zionist. They believe that the state has no religious legitimacy, but it exists, and we have to live with it. We have to call it when it goes against Torah, and we have to make it as close as possible to a Torah institution as we can, but they pay their taxes, some serve in the IDF, they work, get government money, vote, and are engaged with the state to an extent.

That's roughly analogous to how I manage to be an old "hard-line" anarchist in the USA: the government has no moral legitimacy but it exists and it'll take generations for the people to learn to live without it. I'll criticize it when it violates rational moral principles (such as bombing the hell out of and then "liberating" any poor basically helpless country that has something it wants, such as bananas, oil or opium), and I oppose those who oppose improving this system (e.g., it's not that I'm pro-Obama, far from it, but the anti-Obama crowd is so crazy it scares me).

I'd work if I were able (what "working class" means, right?), I pay the taxes I do because there's no way to get around it (disagreeing with sales tax and the 'sin' tax on liquor won't do me any good in the checkout line), I'll happily take government money (and agitate for taxing the rich and those corporate persons more than "normal" people) and I'd defend my country against foreign invasion (which hasn't happened since 1812), but I don't vote because I can't hold my nose hard enough, and I still hold to and preach revolutionary principles even though turning this country into a loose federation of anarcho-syndicalist communes would mean I might have to live in a tent and gig frogs, trap squirrels and noodle catfish to keep from starving.

You probably won't agree, but I see my lifestyle as trying to practice something loosely analogous to halakha in the middle of "Babylon" in the Twitter age. Mostly by myself too, given that I'm so "ultra-orthodox" I find BDSM immoral from an anarchist perspective. (You should be able to reproduce my reasoning on that yourself if you understand what I mean by anarchist moral principles.)

But anyway. They pay me just enough to live on because I'm a disagreeable fruitcake who has a great deal of trouble living in the "real" world and who's been beaten too much to have any morale to improve. That I claim to be a prophet in a moral wilderness qualifies as a grandiose delusion, though I've never said my "career" has divine sanction (impossible for an atheist) nor indeed have I ever professed to speak for anybody but myself (and most often talk only to myself).

"Damn the man!"
 
2012-06-26 07:12:03 PM  
'Jewish Holocaust Denier' or what a new fark handle may look like.
Or better yet, 'Anti-Zionist Ultra-Orthodox Jew'.

/weird
 
2012-06-26 07:13:27 PM  

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: "If Hitler had not existed, the Zionists would have invented him."

Amos is an ultra-orthodox jew living in Israel?!?!


Your idiocy I can overlook, liar76.

Your dishonesty - not so much.

IIRC you seem to be of the mind that jews in general and Zionists in particular have been behind the events that made Israel possible.



Of course. Who doubts this?


liam76: So unless I am mistaken and you can come out and say that the driving force behind widespread zionism was the holocaust then it isn't dishonest to attribute a quote like that to you.



As I have patiently explained to you before, the groundwork that made Israel possible - the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the "promise" of the Promised Land under the Balfour Declaration, etc, was laid long before WWII, when Hitler was an unknown nobody.

Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.

Hitler and Nazism to the rescue - thanks to those guys, Jews were beating down the door to get in.

Hitler should be honored alongside Ben Gurion as a "Founding Father" of Israel. Were it not for him (or some similar character), Israel would NOT exist - because so few Jews had any desire to go that they could never have formed the necessary critical population for a Jewish State.

Ben Gurion knew this well.

As to my reference to your dishonesty, it wasn't referencing the foregoing post in particular, but your pattern of being blatantly dishonest virtually every time we chat.

Have a nice day.
 
2012-06-26 07:18:36 PM  

Dafatone:

Er... I don't think "well the Hebrews failed to / weren't willing to wipe out EVERYONE" means there was never a forceful conversion effort.


Read the Bible: the Hebrews were too busy farking the people of the land and getting drunk at their baalist feasts for there conversion effort to succeed.


The Christian Crusades didn't convert the world, but they were still a crusade.

You do know there was a Maoist revolution in America in the late '60s and early-to-mid '70s, don't you? It was certainly "a forceful conversion effort." But the people of America were too busy getting high, spreading gonorrhea and going to Rolling Stones and Lynyrd Skynyrd concerts to notice it, much less follow Mao Tse Tung Thought to the total arson of the capitalist-imperialist System.

If the Bible is historical, I suspect a lot of Canaanites in the Judges period felt the same way about the Yahwist crusade to conquer their land as undergrads today do about the Boomer's Maoist uprising. ("Huh? Did you read that in the Onion?")
 
2012-06-26 07:19:34 PM  

Amos Quito: Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.



More history fail.

They couldn't show up because the British and Arabs refused them.
 
2012-06-26 07:20:18 PM  

Amos Quito: Hitler should be honored alongside Ben Gurion as a "Founding Father" of Israel. Were it not for him (or some similar character), Israel would NOT exist - because so few Jews had any desire to go that they could never have formed the necessary critical population for a Jewish State.

Ben Gurion knew this well.



Yep, you're a full blown loonie.
 
2012-06-26 07:23:17 PM  

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: "If Hitler had not existed, the Zionists would have invented him."

Amos is an ultra-orthodox jew living in Israel?!?!


Your idiocy I can overlook, liar76.

Your dishonesty - not so much.

IIRC you seem to be of the mind that jews in general and Zionists in particular have been behind the events that made Israel possible.


Of course. Who doubts this?


liam76: So unless I am mistaken and you can come out and say that the driving force behind widespread zionism was the holocaust then it isn't dishonest to attribute a quote like that to you.


As I have patiently explained to you before, the groundwork that made Israel possible - the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the "promise" of the Promised Land under the Balfour Declaration, etc, was laid long before WWII, when Hitler was an unknown nobody.

Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.

Hitler and Nazism to the rescue - thanks to those guys, Jews were beating down the door to get in.

Hitler should be honored alongside Ben Gurion as a "Founding Father" of Israel. Were it not for him (or some similar character), Israel would NOT exist - because so few Jews had any desire to go that they could never have formed the necessary critical population for a Jewish State.

Ben Gurion knew this well.

As to my reference to your dishonesty, it wasn't referencing the foregoing post in particular, but your pattern of being blatantly dishonest virtually every time we chat.

Have a nice day.


BAL FOUR!!!

UR OUT!!!

www.baseballunrated.com
 
2012-06-26 07:25:30 PM  

Amos Quito: Of course. Who doubts this?


Sane people? Your own words in the following comments when you confirm that Hitler there was no desire to go to Israel until Hitler and the holocaust.


Amos Quito: As I have patiently explained to you before, the groundwork that made Israel possible - the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the "promise" of the Promised Land under the Balfour Declaration, etc, was laid long before WWII, when Hitler was an unknown nobody.

Problem was that once the Zionists laid hold of the land, very few Jews wanted to go there. They threw a party but no one showed up.

Hitler and Nazism to the rescue - thanks to those guys, Jews were beating down the door to get in.


You can't even keep your own derp straight.



Amos Quito: As to my reference to your dishonesty, it wasn't referencing the foregoing post in particular


That is because the forgoing post was accurate, as you just confirmed.
 
2012-06-26 07:26:28 PM  

liam76: Sane people? Your own words in the following comments when you confirm that Hitler there was no desire to go to Israel until Hitler and the holocaust.


DOH, FTFM.
 
2012-06-26 07:28:26 PM  

Tatsuma: The One True TheDavid:

Too bad that is essentially the case: Israel is supposed to be brought by G-d through his Messiah, who will conquer the world with sword and pixie dust.

How about you leave discussions of Judaism to people who actually know what they are talking about?


How about you understand that was a broad silly analogy and tell me where i'm wrong?

By "sword and pixie dust" I mean with armed might inspired by religious doctrine. (Sorta like the way the Israelites were supposed to conquer Canaan in the first place.) Is that not basically correct?

Or is the Messiah supposed to run for a seat in the Knesset? ("With the GREENS? You've got to be kidding.")
 
2012-06-26 07:30:32 PM  
Tatsuma:

indylaw: As usual, you're not wrong, Walter.

[fanboydestroy.files.wordpress.com image 640x459]

I'm wrong when I say I'm wrong.


Is it that you're sure of divine sanction or that you're sure you're too good for it?
 
2012-06-26 07:32:49 PM  
liam76:

[...]

i thought gay marriage has everything to do with Orthodox Jews in Israel. Don't they make rules governing what is a recognized marriage, who is recognized as a jew, etc.


How about you leave talking about Judaism to Tatsuma, who gets to decide what it is?
 
2012-06-26 07:40:29 PM  
Tatsuma:..."but they pay their taxes, some serve in the IDF,"
I just don't know how you manage to say this with a straight face. Most Haredi do NOT pay taxes since they do not work. They get s stipend to learn in Yeshiva. Of course many of them do not actually learn and work getting paid cash and not paying taxes.
Almost no Haredi goes to the army. Even fewer (82 out of ~6000 eligible last year) do any sort of social services instead of the army. The Haredi's may not be anti zionistic but they definitely do not participate in the burden of the state of Israel and as a matter of fact just increase the burden.
A minority does work, an even smaller minority serves in the army, but if there is something that is against their religious views thousands will gather, throw stones on cars, demolish a memorial garden in memory of a soldier (for example) and generally ignore the civil law. Of course once their demands are met, then everything is dandy.
/sorry about the outburst
//modern orthodox Jew and feel closer or reform or conservative than toward Haredi's
 
2012-06-26 07:40:54 PM  
Tatsuma:

The One True TheDavid: For Jews. Especially observant/Orthodox Jews. Especially for their own kinds of observant/Orthodox Jews. Like you said, their constituents.

Well, that's what parliamentary system creates, a bunch of parties with narrow views who try to please their voters above what's best of the country

The One True TheDavid: Right: they stay out of party politics and tell people not to vote, because when the Messiah comes he'll turn the country over to the "true believers" like them. They even have their own schools and welfare organizations.

There are plenty of religious parties, though, in the Knesset, who do not believe that


But they do have to accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel enough to play politics and sit in the Knesset, right?

I was talking about the anti- or non-Zionists. Or is there a Satmar party getting candidates elected? Wouldn't that be like Common Struggle (link) running candidates for US Senate, who if elected would take their seats and scramble for "pork" like the rest?
 
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